moosetracker

Thanks, Yep I am already gearing up for next Fall (not spring). Like I said, all my neighborhood districts should be doing that since they didn't have one this Fall. I have already started asking when our Fall Camporee is (to avoid that date).. And calling the BSA camp to figure out if their is a charge to use the campground for district training (there isn't). I am also looking into who would make a good Course director. I am now somewhat confused by the suggestion to find myself a course director, and also to find all the staff myself. I definately feel I should find trainers and give the course director some information on good trainers. Then I figured we would work together on staffing because he may also know of people who would be excellent who are not on my list. But I thought with a course director, they should also have a say in the staff with who he would like to work with. I was waiting for IOLS to be done, so I can concentrate on going out and meeting some of the Packs & troops in my district. I definatly want to meet the Troop that tried to organize the cooking Demo for me with 2 weeks notice. Seems like they were really trying to move mountains to make changes to their camporee plans, and even started inviting others they knew outside their troop to fill in. I think they really were excited to help out, but I just couldn't see burdening them with not enough Adult coverage for their troop during the camporee. I really would like to see if I can find my next course director from this troop. Like I said they really impressed me in the way the were gung-ho to step in last minute to help organize..

When our troop had "it", and when I have seen other troops that retain their older boys, it is truely having the faith in the older boys to run the program.. True faith.. Give them the keys to the truck so to speak. Alot of troops just pay lip service to giving the boys responsibility, behind the scenes the SM is still running the show, "guiding" in an authoritative way, and the boy lead is just window dressing. It is a shame. If the older boys are feeling manipulated, or as Beavah said feel like they are babysitting the younger boys they are going to loose interest. If it truely IS their program, then if they are bored or don't feel challenged enough, guess who gets to change it to be of interest?.. THEY DO.. So how do THEY want to shake up THEIR program? Some of it may be high adventure if that is what the older boys want to go for, but sometimes it is just a different way of doing things, like I know we had two older boys who were planning to go into the army, the program turned into a direction of drills that were sort of like an ROTC camp or something, they got a military father in to teach them very smart marching drills. It was what the older boys were interested in at the time. Let the older boys lead the program and design it to their intrests (as long as within the guidelines, we did have to turn down the scout interested in paintball wars from trying to get the troop involved). At least that has always been my take on the successful Troop or Crew. Other people I am sure can add to it.

I too feel it depends on the adults running the program. with our old SM's in the troop older boys stayed in, as they knew how to open up the opportunities for their independance. With the current SM, we have a bottom heavy troop, with a sprinkling of some of the old regime of boys over 18-21 age group, who just sit around with little to do and complain about the current program. Currently the SM has a difficult time delegating to older boys or other adult leaders. but I also think that it is up to the boys, they could be in a great troop that offers older boys opportunity, yet if they get tunnel vision to get the eagle award, once that challenge is over they don't look around to see that there are new and different challenges in the troop. Their goal is done, and they don't know what else to do in the troop. But a good troop, with good leaders can challange the boys past 18, and they will stay engaged even while in college.

Weird half you class got credit & half did not. Normally I see an all or nothing. Yes, I sent out to each unit a report where a seprate page showed what council had recorded for their training. The units are now able to "SEE" what is missing and able to create a list of those courses they took they did not get credit for. This helps in two ways. 1) We had true anger when we told the adult leaders to list every training they took, because we didn't know what we had. This way, we still showed that things weren't all recorded right, but we did have most of it. People did not react in anger over it. they were happy to finally get an opportunity to see what the council had. 2) Our registrar doesn't get a list of "ALL" Trainings from everyone, and get over-whelmed by what needs to be researched and recorded when 3/4 is recorded ok. The people did the research for him, and he only got a list what truely needed to be entered. I gave them this just before school started, I will re-pull the council records mid-November and send it out again. If they are not recorded for YPT, they will know those people need to give them a paper YPT proof for the day of registration. I am hoping also to see an improvement in what these units have recorded for their adult trainings.

Yes, I think they did learn alot and enjoy themselves (most).. I did have a few who could have "tested out", or "run the course", that were a little bored. When I had problems finding staff for the course I had a feeling some of my partipants would have the skills to teach, but I didn't know who.. just a gut feeling. No way to put out a blanket statement of "Hey participants, were going to have a fun time, but are missing our cooking demo trainer, and plants & animal trainer.. Can any of you do that for us??" and at all look like we were in control of the situation.. But, yes we had some people in training, who could have done a fine job of those two skills. But over all, they had a good time, but did notice I was "working like a dog" as some of them commented on it. A few did come out of training to help me (those who could have taught the course). I also did get alot of names for new trainers to IOLS. I do need to also look for some new ones for the specifics, especially cubs, but I am also waiting to see how much we will need to staff those once on-line is in place. I have one coming up on the 23rd and only two cub scout leaders have signed up for it to date. I am unsure if I will do a spring IOLS, as I haven't started organizing it (it was not on the calendar) and will already be behind in organizing. I think all my neighboring districts should offer it since they didn't have a Fall course. I am thinking about trying the BALOO training in the spring though, and trying a "test out" for IOLs both will have some of the IOLS coordination, but not as much, and I can try changes in organization out in the smaller courses this spring.

Sure would have made it easier on me. every year for the annual woodbadge dinner, you sign up & they ask what course you took. I sign my husband & I up, and put down his course number as he plastered in on some "feed the bears" sign they made to put on their table. but I skip putting mine down, as I just can't remember what it was.(I may find out, then the next year forget it again). If mine was similar to his but just had a different year, I would be golden.

Thanks, I learned a lot from this. I think most people move into DTC after having been on the training staff, and knowing whats what.. I walked in totally green.. When I took this job, I was told by the DE and the DCC that: 1) They had run for years without a training chair and could continue to do so. But if I wanted the job that was fine. 2) They wanted someone in the position who did the paperwork, but had little to do with the training sessions as they were self contained & running smoothly. Maybe I could come to just verify all was running well. 3) I defiantly did not need to find any more trainers, they had all the volunteer trainers they could handle. I did get a training session on how to be the training chair, but again I think it was aimed at assuming you came in with some knowledge. I knew I was to get a course director, but what they did was unknown. So I assigned my new Vice district training chair the position who is new & young. Gave her a list of the trainers in the district (which was much smaller then I imagined given we were to have an over abundance). No list of who did what. And said she could staff,(to which staffing meant the trainers for the skills) then organize the participants the week before into patrols and get them to organize their patrol gear. I tried before summer break to get the training staff to meet. Per the training I got I knew I was already late with organizing. No one wanted to. Few on the staff list responded late spring/ early summer to email asking what they could do for the training. I was told it was too early for them to think about it. It would all come together in the Fall. Being so new I worried about this procedure, and felt it needed changing but was caught with no way to figure out how to change it over summer break. I just kept being told not to worry, I was trying to do things too early, and to relax and watch it all come together. I dont think our council has all that you mentioned to loan us. I did ask about tables, but it took about a month and 4 emails to get a positive response, but we needed to pick them up. By then we had come up with plywood tables, and although not as nice, they would be not a bulky to transport as the tables would be, and we were already worried about fitting all we need to into our vehicales. I do know they have laptops & projectors for the other types of training, but that seems to be all they are comfortable with providing. I also do go to our council training meetings they are held bi-monthly and there was a 5 month gap between the first one I attended and the next one, due to summer break. The 2nd one was 3 days before my IOLS training, and a little late to figure out what I didnt do. I was just going to go for it. As stated I also did try to get to meet with the council training chair, but she had personal family problems she was attending to, and as stated I believe she is winding down, so she was not any more interested in meeting with me then my training staff. Although she did appoligize for not having the time. So I guess I got to learn the hard way! Again Thanks, as I know have information on how to correct my errors in the future.

I hadn't heard put on hold, indefinately, but I had heard it had been put off for another year. We are suppose to get new software (good software) before it goes into effect.. Maybe that isn't coming along as fast as expected.

the IOLS & the OWL is basically the same course but for minor differences. IOLS teaches totin chit & OWL whittlin chit IOLs teaches plant & animal Identification & OWL teaches 3 outdoor activity pins so some people take the IOLS rather then the OWL since OWL is only recommended and IOLS will be required when you get to boy scouts (if you become ASM or SM).. Some courses will offer a combined class in IOLS & OWL by adding the additional OWL pieces to their IOLS course. Also I heard it was slated for this Fall, but got pushed back, but National is organizing a new course that will combine the 2 courses, so maybe by this Spring or next Fall that will be out. I stayed in the committee, but I trained for all the SM required courses. I felt it was best to know what the SM & ASM had to think about in order to be of help to them. Also it became required for anyone in our troop who wished to go on events committee or ASM/SM or even unregistered parents.

I am unsure what SAS is.. the IOLS though is a required course for SM, ASM, and crew advisors if their crew has an outdoor program. There will be one year when only top leaders SM & CM will be required to have complete training, then the next year those working with the youth, (ASM, ACM, DL, ADL etc).. this is the most official page I can find, it comes from myscouting.org. http://scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/BoyScouts/Adults/Training/Trained%20Leader.aspx Other ones come from councils. http://www.cdbsa.org/Training/LeaderTrainingRequirements_2009-09-07.pdf http://www.yuccabsa.org/CalendarItems/Yucca%20Council%20Training%20Policy.pdf

LOL.. Not picking on you, just making an observation I thought was funny when I figured out the answer to your question, looking at his posts.. Since he has been out of scouting for 28 years, and theres a 10-15 year gap between him & the other parents, I'm guessing it's the mom's birth year.. If he has a bunch of 28 year old tigers (or older) the man has serious problems!

In the back of the IOLS syllabus, there is a questionaire to rate your skills at everything, then a checklist for a trainer to check off what the participant has successfully tested out of. Strangly though nothing in the IOLS syllabus says what in the world this is for. then if you go to the boy scout specifics syllabus it tells you that you can demonstrate out of the IOLS.. So it is difficult to figure out all the parts & pieces because they don't put the test & questionaire along with the statement all in the IOLS book where it should be..

I do not think our district does this at present. I was planning on setting up a course for demonstrating out kindof run like a camporee with stations. I am concerned about the demonstrating one-on-one verbage. I do not know if any of my trainers know everything to be able to test someone out all the way through. I know no-one volunteeree to take on plant/animal id when our usual trainer could not, and I also had trouble finding anyone to take on the Cooking demo when someone backed out 2 weeks before we were to hold the course. Maybe they can pass someone who "sounds" like they know what they are talking about, but I would rather have someone who knows whats what pass them on truely knowing what they are talking about.

That may hold true of the Eagle who then had a party of booze & drugs to celebrate his Eagle award. But wouldn't earned fraudulently be the case of the Eagle whose SM handed out awards for sexual favors, and learning to murder for him?.. (Oh I forgot to mention, one boy walked away, told what was going on but was not believed. The SM wanted his troop to murder him. Luckily they failed.) Although they only took Eagle away from this boy, did any boy in that troop really earn Eagle??

Patience Fox.. Soon he will need to take it, or not be able to register for Boy scouts or Venturing if their crew has and outdoor program, and by the sound of the event He is blowing it off for, sounds like they do. You could look around to see what other weekend neighboring districts will hold it on, and tell him about it. So you can't take this one.. What about weekend a, b, or c..

I did have some time. I took on this job late spring, just as school let out. But, our council stops having roundtables, and council planning meetings and most units stop for summer break. So having people to learn from and going out to meet people was not an option. The first round table after summer break was the first time I met with some of the trainers (they don't like to meet). The first council planning was 3 days before my course started. I had asked over the summer to meet with the council training chair, but she was busy with family issues. Ok what would you recommend as needed "extra" staff? These positions are just not stamped out. And in the feeding them for the weekend, do they pay for their own food, or do you try to roll that into the fee of the participant? I heard Course director - I guess this person would line up the people to staff the event. I do think I had one, although we were both clueless. I had someone to ask the trainers who wanted to do what training. (All I got from my predecessor was a list of names, and nothing on what they taught..) When no one volunteered for the position she asked the trainers for other names of people who had done that skill in past and called them. Then we had a few around the 2-3 weeks before backing out of what they committed to doing, thats when I got involved trying to help her find last minute replacements. We even had one person back out the Friday the night before the course was to start. This person also contacted the participants during the week before the event, putting them in patrols and giving them email to organize their patrol equipment. The one thing we did not know was staff meant more then the trainers. (As stated, both of us were clueless).. During the course though she was a participant, being a new ASM. Quartermaster - Takes care of the equipment needed..? Like they would have been responsible for the garage tent, fire pit and tables.. (Staff cooking equipment or job of the chef???) Kitchen staff - (how many)? They do the Cooking & cleanup for the staff not the participants. Or do I just choose a chef and have them staff it.. (do they bring the staff cooking equipment??) Someone else mentions things like an SPL,ASPL etc.. do I need that? From what I hear having 26 participants was a LARGE class, normally I many only see 10-15.. So I don't want my staff being more then my participants in numbers. If my staff is larger then the class or even equal to, I definately will need to asking them to pay for their own food. I did have a Troop guide.. It just worked out someone who had taken it before, wanted to retake it. He also did the training for first aide & flag ceremony. Anyway, I just thought it would be fun to make him a troop guide. Good thing too because I had no time to interact with the participants.. So he saved the day doing that piece for me. I am looking into offering the "demonstrate out" option for those who have the IOLS skills, and pulling those who are taking the class but know it all (and are bored) out of the IOLS course, then maybe slowing it down for the participants, I would like to have a class meeting either the weekend before or what not. Maybe with that I can teach what they need to know before coming in site selection, and patrol meal planning etc.. then give them time to organize their patrol gear & maybe one of the meals. I am iffy about that, because if I make the course longer then other districts, I may get district hopping for those who don't want the longer course.

Here is a different angle on this. If somone earns something, should there be a reason to take it away? I don't think my current troop does it, or there has been no need to use it. But in past troops if a boy earns the totin chit but then does something that does not follow the rules, a corner can be taken off until all 4 corners removed and he has to re-earn it. Or if severe enough the totin chit is just taken away. My sons went to a different council camp and they gave out pocket flaps for the totin chit not cards, I joked with them that they had better not do anything that forced a corner to be removed. I also know of some Eagle ranks earned and then taken away. One was in our state over a boy that earned his eagle then combined his eagle celebration & graduate party into a drinking and drug party and everyone was arrested and it hit the papers. There was a show on about an Eagle scout (maybe before YP?) whose SM was taking the boys out into the woods as the only adult leader and molesting them and turning them into sort of those rebel military type that practice overthrowing the government..(can't think of what they are called) But they were training to protect their SM from anyone arresting him. Some parents were weird too, knowing about the molesting, but not reporting it if SM stayed away from their son. When one boy told his parents, parents did not tell a sole for a week (again weird) and SM spent week conviencing boy to kill his family to protect the SM secret.. So he did.. This boy had his Eagle revolked. I don't see a problem with revoking a totin chit to teach a boy safety if he is not following it. Or in revoking the Eagle award, if the boy does something that states he really didn't earn it. I don't believe I have ever heard of an Eagle rank being revolked if the crime is not linked with the Eagle rank in the newspaper. Say someone who earns Eagle, 20 years later murders his wife. But what do you feel about an award earned being taken away?

Yes cubs has changed (although being female and growing up in an all female household, I wasn't involved 28 years ago). But my husband was. Boys still cross over to boy scouts around 11/12. The 2nd year of Webloes is up to around March and if done right, the Webelos Den Leader is suppose to be slowly getting the boys use to what boy scouts is all about, so there isn't a total shock when they flip out of one program into another totally different. Half the boys that cross over seem to drop out in the first year due shock over the changes, and not being ready for boy scouts. The Tigers I believe was added to the front end, where before they did not start in first grade, but in second. Maybe by second boys are already involved in programs they started in first and they got a better joining rate if they got the boys involved in first (at least that is my guess). There are now so many programs out their competing for the attention of youth, boy scouts does need to change with the times to stay competitive. There was a very recent change to cubs just this year, moving alot of the advancement out of the household and into the den, many dens were already doing it. Again just a sign of the times, and changing in order to retain the youth that join. Seems families were not working on advancement at home, and when their son fell behind due to the un-involved family the boy dropped out. So there are still other advancement an involved family can do, but the boys can make rank and advance even if in an un-involved family. Of course this may backfire on them as many units (both Pack & Boy scout) suffer due to trying to maintain a good program with few parents being involved. Now at cub scout level we are encouraging their un-involvement, or at least finding ways to retain the boys of un-involved parent in the program. It could mean in years to come the program will suffer with a ratio of too many youth and not enough adult leadership to put on a good program. Only time will tell the effects of the change. But, here you are, and you are involved.. So congradulations, and a sincere Welcome because we need more parents like you.. I hope the forum will help as you get back in the saddle again.

Thanks for all the advice. My council training chair is winding down with her last year (and she really wanted out last year). So I asked for help and advice, but really went it alone. It has been years since I took IOLS myself, so although I did not remember anyone running around like a lost chicken, and I remember the training chair in the wings without stress. I couldn't remember who ran what for everything else. It just seemed like there were 4 or 5 people there the whole time, and things just ran smoothly. I did get lots of people (even those taking the class) who have offered help in future trainings. It's just that I will definately have to get through to my current trainers & future trainers, what happened at this training, will not happen at the next. I will need to look for people willing to stay and support the training for more then their 45 - 60 minute training session.

Yuck.. Yuck.. Now I have to sound like my son.. "How do you make coffee?".. I am up there in years, and have yet to see the necessity to learn.. And an outdoor purcalator is not in my home, let alone my camping equipment. My husband either buys on the way to work, or lives with instant. I have never touch the stuff.. It smells awful, and looks like mud!!!! I guess for indoors events I at least have to hold my nose & pick up Dunking donuts coffee box, or learn what the parts of a purculator are for, and how much goes in to make coffee just taste ickky, and not too weak ickky, or too strong ickky. Yeah, I guess some of our district volunteers asked for it at camporees because they didn't want to be away from family for two weekends in a month (the training & the troop event).. But really you are not at the troop event except for sleeping if you are in training.. So those people should just take the training and have others of the unit do the event whether it falls on the same weekend of the troop event or not..Now we have others who do not have the unit coverage to do the training during the Camporee because they have no one to provide adult leadership to the unit if they do. So putting training on a different weekend will help them. We used my sons Jeep Cherokee, my husbands HHR with a trailer in tow, and my pseudo son's pickup truck just to lugg everything we needed to the Camporee.. I can't guarentee that I will have that type of caravan for each training. And organizing equipment for 3 patrols & staff took alot. (Patrols were asked to provide own stoves, coolers, lanterns, cooking equipment). But my cooler had to lugg a patrols worth of food up anyway, we needed the shelters, and the tables etc.. for each patrol.

I also remember when my son was at the early stages of rank, it was the SM that decided on things that would be credited, if outside of a troop outing. 1) a community service project, the entire troop did not participate in, had to be discussed with the SM and approved by the SM before the community service project took place. 2) a scouting event that had camping the entire troop was not participating in was the SM decision as to if the scout got credit for it. 3) a flag ceremony not at the troop (say the raising or lowering of the flag for you school) was approved by the SM if that took care of the rank requirement. So, I still see it at the SM authority to credit a scout for a camping trip. Something a committee should not stick their nose into. Now different from other peoples beliefs with us the committee organizes the adult leaders, they are not just worker bees for the SM. The SM & committee are basically equal powers with the COR being the tie breaker in disagreements. But, it is understood the boys in the troop are under the SM authority, the adult leaders are under the Committee.. This does include the SM. Not to the point of "You will have the boys do A,B,C".. But take this past camping trip.. (Our SM is not the best choice).. So during the trip, one boys sleeping bag was soaked before the first night. He approached the SM and the SM blew him off so he slept in a wet sleeping bag on nights so cold the tent had frost on it. Parents not to happy. Also he chose to do the hike to the Summit (an up hill hike) got half way up, and pooped out, so had the boys finish. Then went down to the bottom, and when they didn't return put out a APB on missing boys on the mountain with no adult leadership, causing the troop running the camporee to go into panic. Also one of those boys left to hike alone has severe epilepsy, and was left without medications or anyone to admisiter it. OK.. Does the committee get involved with telling the SM he has done wrong? Well at least the CC had a long discussion with him. I would imagine our COR will talk to him also. Why? because our committee isn't under the SM.. And since the committee is the one responsible for the Adult leaders, and handeling parent complaints, they have a right to correct the SM when he is wrong. Many members of the committee are voicing the fact the SM should be replaced. They (With the ruling of our COR) have the right to vote him in or out every year, my feeling is this will be his last year (If he is booted out sooner). Sorry if our committee works in ways those who feel committees should just be servent to the SM are going to state our committee is totally wrong. Still the one thing our committee does not stick their nose in is the relationship & authority between the scouts and the SM.

Sorry I disagree, the recording of if the boy went camping with the troop or not, is not a a judgement call. If the troop went out and pitched tents and spent a few days & nights out of doors, then the scout went camping with the troop. That is just a fact. That is like me paying my gas bill, and someone telling me they are not going to credit me for paying the bill, because Joe Brown didn't buy the house on Main street. Sorry I paid my gas bill regardless of what Jo Brown did, and I want that fact recorded. Do I want an award for paying my gas bill. No.. I just want the fact recorded that I paid my bill.

Oh they did their own cleanup of their stuff after dinner & Breakfast that they were preparing themselves.. But, for some reason the containers I gave them to hold the food were not cleaned in their station, but were brought back to me dirty. Also if they borrowed something they did not have, like a knife... Returned to me dirty. I just had to clean up after the staff. My staff was not very helpful, except for training and socializing. The first Breakfast & lunch were to be eat before you came, & bring bag lunch. Problem was I estimated a smaller enrollment, not realizing I was the ONLY district in the council offering IOLS this season. Due to the large turnout, I would have ended up with a 40% profit for the council, if I did not add the Saturday Breakfast & Lunch.. I did try to keep it simple with little prep & little cleanup.. Danish & deli sandwiches where I put out the fixings and you made your own. I just felt I was cheating the participant if I didn't use more of what they paid for the course on them. (no way to refund, either spend or the council would keep).. We did have 1 guy stay and help with cleanup for about 1/2 an hour. Then he had to book. the starting of coffee, really was not quite accurate. I provided instant coffee. Then I started up a big kettle on one of those turkey burners.. If just coffee water was low, close to cleanup time, water was raised, and all patrols could get their hot water for cleanup from it. The water needed to be started in the morning, then it just ran non-stop all day long. You could have coffee/ tea / or Hot chocolate.

I also will strip this a bit further. Is this situation really an award?.. I don't think so. When someone goes camping to mark the person as camping for 3 days and 2 nights is not really an award, it is just accounting the facts of what they did. Did the boys go on a troop camping trip? Yes they did.. Should they be recorded in the account records as having gone on a camping trip. Yes they should. Does it matter that the Adults were not IOLS trained? No it does not. For going on a camping trip, they don't get an award, what they do get is an accounting of the fact, so when in the future they come up for a rank, or the camping MB or whatever that camping trip will be recorded history. Now maybe a scout can talk over this camping trip with an MBC and the councilor will award it to them. But, how many scouts after being told "It does not count" are going to know that the MBC can choose to count it anyway. Now as for getting an award, everytime you sneeze.. No that is uncalled for. But an award, and an accurate accounting of the facts are two seperate things.

Even if your younger son is unsure about leaving this current troop or not, I would invite him along while you and your oldest are visiting other troops. If he sees what is available in a "working" troop, it may make his decision to move easier. If one stays & one goes, that may make getting them to their troops & events hard, expecially if they take place on the same night. District camporees will definately be events that both will need to be at different meeting spots on the same night/day. That way you are not forcing him, but opening his mind to other possibilities.