moosetracker

TNScouterTroop - It is not that you are trying to run a high standard troop. Kudu & JBlake47 run retroactive high standard troops. Many right now think I might be battling with Kudu over his troop, I am not, merely stating there are things that you can change, and others that you can not such as you can demand a higher compentancy of the advancement requirements, but not add to if 15 of your own before they can reach a rank. But if he wants to run a different program then as long as he is fair with all the scouts equally, I have no problem. The difference between Kudu and you is since Kudu does not run under the radar in this forum, I doubt he is running under the radar in his district or council. Meaning he has no fear of being on the radar, and takes pride in his troop. I have yet to hear how he handles transfers or new members. The difference between JBlake47 and you is he is sad he could not entice some if not all of the 40 Webelos tranfers to try out his troop with their different approach. He did not sound like he was going to grill them for if their parents and the scouts had the right "mental attitude" and deny anyone who did not. By you wanting to run under the radar, by you wanting to open your doors to people outside your church, but find a way to monitor who you accept and who you don't, by you wanting to deny transfers or expect them to be at your units expected skill set for their rank or have the right to deny them. By you wanting to train your own adult leaders and figure out how you can sign them off on the courses that will be required to be rechartered yourself without them ever going near other people who may tell them BSA policy that is different then what you want to drill into them is BSA policy. You troop sound very very controlling, very domineering, very manipulative with both the scouts and the adult leaders. Your troop also sounds like it needs to run under the radar of your district & council for fear that the policies you will set up will not be of any BSA troop from 1912 - 2010 and that what you are establishing will be so against BSA policy it will cause your council to terminate it, if they ever got wind of what you were up to. Sorry, but the secretiveness, the monitoring who joins, and the wish to segregate your adult leaders from hearing BSA policy from anyone else in the scouting community outside of your group. Just sends up red flags to me. So what happens to the boy who is a crossover who chooses to join you troop, that after being in it for 6 months to a year, you decide is not cut out for your unit. Or his parents are not. Let say his parents have heard the BSA policies from a friend of theirs that is in another troop, and their fried enlightened them that your unit is unfairly doing A, B & C.. They are informing other parents in your troop? Soon they may report something to your District Exec. What will you do with them? What about a scout that might be enjoying the friends in the troop, but is just slow to come up to your expectations for skill set.. Maybe really isn't interested in the scoutcraft skills, just in hanging out with his buddies. How will you remove these unwanted members?

Blest is the Scout Unit with a Concerned SM that puts the welfare of the Unit above petty ego things. The SM should attend and not choose to be absent until he is given the vote. Instead he usually dashes off an email, rather then attends..

Basementdweller - I added the comment about the other thread as a side note of the only time a troop may have the right to reject a transfer.. But really, this is a thread on normal everyday transfers of normal everyday boys.. And someone thinking their troop should deny all transfers because they don't think a scout coming from a normal troop background would be a good fit for their troop, because of the higher standards of their troop. Either the scout would be subpar, or feel they were treated unfairly and complain to the council that their troop is not following the BSA rules.. Or whatever.

P.S. due to another active thread going on I do have to state, that I do think that if a scout has been in your unit (or is currently in the unit) and it has proved not to be a healthy relationship and may threaten to tear the unit apart, that is when the unit has a right to ask them to leave (or not allow them to transfer back in). Also as for the 2nd part of the question.. The feeling of superiority with your skills and looking down on "Fake" Eagle Scouts who don't have the same skill set. That will happen in a normal troop where the scouts have a normal skill set when they see a 13 yo Eagle who doesn't show maturity and/or skills. Or maybe not a young Eagle but still someone who is Eagle who is self-centered, or not a team player. I don't know how you change that attitude, in truth I have to admit I even have that feeling.. I guess my beef is not with the Eagle, it is with the adults who never got proper training or chose to not follow the program. They are the ones that cheated the scout. It does seem to hurt the program if a manager hires someone who puts on their resume they earned Eagle, and they have a poor work or team ethic. I know it is not their fault the scout just followed the program, and feels their skills are equal to every other Eagle.

1) If you have a well defined program that you think may not be the normal style of a troop.. (such as either following the guidelines of 1912, or following the guidelines of current day). Then you should be able to explain your program to a new crossover scout or a transfering scout, so that they understand the design of your program. 2) Figure out a working plan to get a transfer scout up to speed with the skills your troop think are important, that their other troop were lax in.. With a transfer scout go through the outline of this plan with them also so they are informed. Then let the scout decide if this troop is where they want to be or not. If he decides to join welcome him and work with him to bring him up speed. If you lay out everything up front, and follow that plan the scout may in time find this is not the troop for them and transfer out, but he should not have a feeling that you were at all unfair to him while he was there. Taking the requirements and "assuring" the scouts really know them, and put them to constant use so that they remember them is not a bad thing.. Adding to the requirements (or subtracting) from them for rank requirement should not be done. Having a troop with extra challenges that don't have anything to do with rank requirement though is just fine.. The troop should not feel they have the right to pick & choose their new scouts. They should just truthfully lay out their troops objectives and then allow the scouts to make an informed decision..

Ok I will admit when I am wrong (at least about what started my statements) I look back to find what Kudu wrote, and I see the following: "In Baden-Powell's Scouting there is no Troop committee of moms & dads. Period. The Patrol Leaders control the checkbook." But I really remember reading more then this that stated jblake was wrong to have a committee.. I stated that you needed a committee of at least 3 in order to recharter and Eagle92 replied "One of the beautiful things about Scouting is that it is adaptable. If you want to follow a traditional program, then you can do it, as along as it follows G2SS, and everything that Kudu mentions is permitted." Meaning if you state you are traditional you can forgo having a committee of 3 or more and have no committee. This really threw me that you can ignore what is required in order to reregister if those were not required to reregister in 1912 (did they even need to reregister yearly in 1912).. Such as ignore having a committee, Youth protection, manditory training etc. Other then that all that I said I believe. Yes - you don't have to follow the current policies to a "T", but you should not tell someone else they are wrong if they choose to follow the policies. Or not follow some of the policies. Yes - you can buck the system, to a point (whether it be the modern system or the system of 1912).. But make sure your policies are fair to the boys in an equal fashion. And you should have a program that is on the up and up to a point that you will open your doors to any boy with an interest in the type of program you are running.. The boys should get to hear your program and your approach and choose to join or not. You as a troop shouldn't pick & choose your scouts. (except the rare incidents where you have background problems with the scout, that would cause the troop to request they leave (or not return) for the health of the rest of the unit.) Our troop doesn't follow all the rules to a "T" either there are things we have modified. We have the opposite of Kudu.. We have the 18 - 20 year olds wanting into the administration and have opened our doors to them in the committee.. The troop has given them the vote. The district can't give them the vote, but welcome them into the committee. My VP of Training on the District Committee is a 18 or 19 year old young women who chose NOT to go into Ventureing but has joined a Boy Scout Troop as an ASM. Actually she is my son's fiancee, but that is not why I chose her, she is bright & dedicated and is going to college to be a teacher, so this position is a great opportunity for her.

Although the "rules" do state the CM/SM & ACM/ASM & DL have no vote in a committee, I get where Beavah is comming from, some committees who do not see the reason for restricting the vote from this group, they may choose to give them the vote. I know our committee does not, but for years our ASM's have refused to come to any committee meetings, they don't see the point when they don't have a vote. With our current SM, (who was a absentee ASM) he started going to the committee meetings, then gave excuses from what I hear (I am no longer active).. He doesn't bother comming.. Bad decision, the committee is now makeing up all sorts of rules they should not be, and the whole mutual respect between the two branches is unraveling.. While the SM came we may have had a vote on something every two or three meetings, 9 times out of 10 with the full support of the SM. I think now the committee is doing alot of voting and just shoving it down the SM's throat, to which most he ignores. That vote thing does get in the way of a good running troop, I can see sometimes a committee voting on letting this group have the vote, just to get them to feel part of the team. I know in our troop though the CC & COR would not for they feel the SM & ASM's agreeing to work together to vote things in that the rest of the committee was against. That was when we had dynamic SM's now, they shouldn't fear it because this SM doesn't have that type of support. I don't think they will change it, because I don't think they care whether the SM is there or not. So he can be absent in protest all he wants. My troop committee has though altered the rule of committee members having to be 21 or older, they allow my son & his fiancee to be in the committee & have a vote, although neither is 21. My son holds the position of Outdoor Coordinator, his fiance holds a position, but I forgot which one, it is one I had never heard of & deals with making sure medical forms are Up-to-date, we have first aid kits and the saftey guidelines are being followed. So yes the rules do state, one thing but all committees do not follow them to the letter.

Hey Kudu (I spelled that right)... thats Moosetracker with no space between.... And you are still a minority, good - bad - or just different..

NJS - I stick by my decision. Don't promote the Eagle project. If the boy wants to come back week after week or email to promote his own project. Then let him. But, at least in my troop our Eagle canidates do not have the SM get up and promote participation from the troop, or make the project seem like a Troop event. That is the scouts job. If the SM promotes it, it will put more importance on the project. ESPECIALLY if he does not promote the boys in his troops Eagle projects. The boys should be able to recruit help from those that he has helped along the way, or due to his willingness to be a team member and therefore the team will come to his aide, If he has been a good friend, his friends will come to his project. If the boy has done this in his other troop he will have volunteers from there. If he has done so with other outside activities he will have volunteers from there. If it is a worthwhile project, maybe some who don't think the scout has been a team member will go anyway. There are many many opportunities for community service projects for this troop to get involved in, service projects are a dime a dozen. The point is, if this scout has earned his Eagle rank he will get volunteers on his own merit.. If he has not been a team player in this troop or his new troop he will not get volunteers from either toop, if he has not been a friend to others or gone out of his way to help them, inside or outside scouts, he will not get the volunteers. He still may find help with those he is doing the project for. The parents have set this scout up that he can do nothing and still get everything. That everything should be handed to him on a silver platter. What good does it do the scout to continue to feed that delusion? It does nothing to make this boy learn what the rank of Eagle is all about. So the project might get delayed while he finds ways to earn the respect and appreciation of others so that they are willing to work on his project.. Does he really need Eagle before 16? Does he really need to meet this goal his parents set. He may fail his first attempt at an Eagle project. My son did due to illness. It was not the end of the world. He can right what he did wrong and try again. Part of building character in scouts is failing, learning from your mistakes, fixing them and trying again. Why is it unreasonable to expect that this scout should learn character the same way every other scout does?

I am not attacking Kudu or Jblake.. I do have my doubts about TNScouterTroop, and not what he has done so far as he is hardly off the ground, but as to his attitude that the program he plans for his troop means his troop should have control over who should be members (not the boys should choose which troop they find the best match for them.) He might be best not to open his doors to the public, but to stay with just boys from his church if he fears how he can discourage the riff-raff from coming in. All I am stating is they run different programs. At the time when Kudu told Jblake he was running his program wrong, because he had a troop committee and he should not, I did not see how Kudu could tell other people they are running their troops wrong by following the current BSA policies.. I did not realize it was both of them were looking to run troops built on the 1912 philosophy.. All I stated is if you are running a troop that is built on a different set of rules from the mainstream, you cannot tell others they are running their troops wrong for following the current set of rules. Also - that bucking the system is fine, to a point. But there is a line that should not be crossed, and that is when the line where you have to moniter who will enter for fear they will get you in trouble, if they were to complain about your policies.. If you fear that, then you have something to hide, and are doing something wrong. I have not heard this claim from Jblake or Kudu. In fact Jblake is trying to recruite new scouts, from what he says, and not in a "I will allow you, and you.. But not you" type of way. As long as they feel comfortable welcoming in new scouts.. Their type of bucking the system is probably the ok type. Because even if they have a complaint go to council they do not fear someone from council pulling the plug. If you can feel that way you may be bucking the system, but you are running a good program.. Just different.

Sorry if last post, doesn't make sense here. It was posted incorrectly here. It was meant to go into ..good Middle School lousy HS.. but it does involve one comment made by TNScouterTroop, (which is how I ended up incorrectly in this tread.) So that piece pertains to this thread.

LOL I replied last night but in the wrong thread.. So if this looks like Dj vu it is, I incorrectly put it in Test Out options.. Not that it is totally wrong there as my opinion involves something TNScouterTroop said in that thread, not this one. Kudu The statement "living in the past" is NOT a prejudicial way to ridicule. I would state that the Amish are people who are living in the past. I am not ridiculing them. In fact I admire them, but could not live like them. Bucking the system is not all so bad either as long as you dont take it to an extreme. It is fine to a point.. But only to a point. If the boys enjoy the program and you are fair to everyone, and you do not add to the requirements for rank advancement, only do things that ensure the requirements are truly met that all the boys are equally judged upon. I do not know about your troop and its bucking the system if it has gone to feeling it is elite to the point of picking & choosing your scouts. I fear TNScoutTroop is organizing for a bucking the system where they are already planning to discourage transfers, and are unsure how to let people from outside their church in with a good screening to see if they have the right mindset. This is a start of a very slippery slope, that can easily turn into a bucking the system where the wrong kind of kids that join even though discouraged not to, are then encouraged to leave by not treating them unfairly, like pushing harder than required advancement goals onto those kids, or setting up a pass/fail board where those who fail are more apt to be those they dont want in the troop anyway, or having subgroups where their quality scouts can join, and the sub-scouts cannot. You may be following some rules, there may be some book somewhere that state these rules are still in effect. But my state also still has rules on its books that state you can be arrested for spitting on the sidewalk. All margarine sold must be dyed pink, and it is illegal to look up when sitting on the toilet on a Sunday (who was enforcing that law I do not know.).. Anyway those not following those rules today can still be arrested because the laws are on the books to this day. So many troops follow what the current council has put out in writing, and have been taught in training. Because they are not following the rules you wish to follow, but are following the BSA rules that are in current print. Does not make you wrong, but also does not make them wrong either. I also think if it is something required for re-chartering today, then it should be required for all units, regardless of if you are a troop who follow the rules of 1912, or the rules of 2010. I am sure the Amish still abide by the Federal & state laws. Maybe that is not true, but YPT was not around in 1912.. It should be part of your program. What will make you wrong is if you start to believe you are elite enough pick & choose your scouts and make judgment calls on who is Eagle material and who is not, then make the Eagle rank attainable to those you think should have it and unattainable to those you think should not. That type of bucking the system is just not right

Since you are a den Leader, you being at the committee meeting (Planning meeting) is encouraged and appreciated. You can inform them what you are doing, you learn what the plans are for the next pack meeting or an event, and can plan for your den to be part of a skit, or do some appropriate craft for it. When a vote is taken unfortunately the CM & DL don't get a vote, but most committees worth their grain of salt, will listen to the CM & DL's who will speak up about how they feel it will effect them positively or negatively. So in my experience any votes in our committee are majorly effected by the SM & ASM (I was most recently in a troop).

Kudu The statement "living in the past" is NOT a prejudicial way to ridicule. I would state that the Amish are people who are living in the past. I am not ridiculing them. In fact I admire them, but could not live like them. Bucking the system is not all so bad either as long as you dont take it to an extreme. It is fine to a point.. But only to a point. If the boys enjoy the program and you are fair to everyone, and you do not add to the requirements for rank advancement, only do things that ensure the requirements are truly met that all the boys are equally judged upon. I do not know about your troop and its bucking the system if it has gone to feeling it is elite to the point of picking & choosing your scouts. I fear TNScoutTroop is organizing for a bucking the system where they are already planning to discourage transfers, and are unsure how to let people from outside their church in with a good screening to see if they have the right mindset. This is a start of a very slippery slope, that can easily turn into a bucking the system where the wrong kind of kids that join even though discouraged not to, are then encouraged to leave by not treating them unfairly, like pushing harder than required advancement goals onto those kids, or setting up a pass/fail board where those who fail are more apt to be those they dont want in the troop anyway, or having subgroups where their quality scouts can join, and the sub-scouts cannot. You may be following some rules, there may be some book somewhere that state these rules are still in effect. But my state also still has rules on its books that state you can be arrested for spitting on the sidewalk. All margarine sold must be dyed pink, and it is illegal to look up when sitting on the toilet on a Sunday (who was enforcing that law I do not know.).. Anyway those not following those rules today can still be arrested because the laws are on the books to this day. So many troops follow what the current council has put out in writing, and have been taught in training. Because they are not following the rules you wish to follow, but are following the BSA rules that are in current print. Does not make you wrong, but also does not make them wrong either. I also think if it is something required for re-chartering today, then it should be required for all units, regardless of if you are a troop who follow the rules of 1912, or the rules of 2010. I am sure the Amish still abide by the Federal & state laws. Maybe that is not true, but YPT was not around in 1912.. It should be part of your program. What will make you wrong is if you start to believe you are elite enough pick & choose your scouts and make judgment calls on who is Eagle material and who is not, then make the Eagle rank attainable to those you think should have it and unattainable to those you think should not. That type of bucking the system is just not right.

Huh? So are you saying that if the rechartering dictates you need 3 committee members (at least) you can tell them you are running a traditional program, and therefore do not need committee members? Nor do you need any of the required training that is necessary for your adult leaders to reregister? Your right I am amazed at that. Still none the less it does not mean that everyone not folling the 1912 BSA rule book is wrong for following the current rules of BSA. One such thing would be utilizing a Committee of 3 or more.

Alfansome- can you clarify this (or anyone else) "you're always "covered" by BSA insurance as a Scout leader on a scout outing. Whether or not BSA insurance (and your personal liability insurance) would be on the hook for $$ in case something goes wrong would be the only thing affected by not following the rules." If I have to have my personal liability insurance pay for something due to not following BSA rules, in what way am I covered by BSA insurance?? Is there something else BSA insurance is covering.. Either way, the $$ would be what I would want the coverage for..

As Eagle92 states, maybe not good to get chewed out if SPL had no prior knowledge of the shifting changes of authority.. But otherwise good that your CC & CM's will support you in giving the Scouts authority.. Kudo - Everyone runs a different program. Yours is different because it is living in the past and in many ways going against current BSA policy.. You can not expect everyone to follow your ideas and buck the system.. In the present all Troops must have a committee of at least 3 people. Every committee should have a CC and a treasurer on it's staff. So most troops unit leaders work with their committee's (or fight with their committees) in order to follow the current guidelines of a troop Adult leader structure. Therefore rather then expect everyone to work against the system, accept that some troops can find ways for the Unit leaders and committee members can work together in harmany in order to give the authority back to the scouts. Some of us think maybe the SPL getting chewed out by the CC may have been a little harsh, but JBlake (who is either SM or ASM not sure).. Was perfectly fine with it, meaning we don't have the complete background story, or their troop has a different set of expectations and runs a little differently then ours would.

Oh, I didn't mean to get in front of the scouts and say something like "Don't help on Johnnys Eagle project because we don't like his parents.." I would just as a troop not promote it. If someone from your troop is a personal friend of his then they may want to help. But, then it is a personal decision, not a troop decision to band together and help as a unit.

Wow with the continuing story, I would not even have your troop help with the eagle project (although I am sure that any help would have been light). But, if they can not take "No" for an answer, then anyone for your troop showing up to help with the project would be concieved by them as an open invite to return to your troop. This is the time where "NO" must be firm in word and in deed.

this is just someone asking because they don't know. You stated earlier the rank is based on the grade or the age. could this boy have had the grade to be in wolf and the age to be in bear, and therefore be in wolf due to grade but blow through it during the summer and now be able to move up to bear due to age.. (or vica versa - be wolf due to age, but qualify for bear due to grade)?? Just asking if there is a way that the CC could be right so that this person doesn't go to the DE or UC insisting the CC is bending the rules and end up with egg on their face.

I do think ever generation has deteriorated. This generation has some truely spactacular young people, but it is few and far between.. Even with my son, he can be wonderful at times, Sometimes it is totally for the benifit of others, most times there is something to gain for himself. Say he will go off and help fiance spring clean her parents home top to bottom, but if we ask him to make a dinner or take out the garbage we more get ignored, sometimes a disgruntled doing. We are also rotten folks because we expect him to pay for his own car, fuel, repairs, insurance. While everyone elses parents pay for everything for their child. Even when you want to instill values on them the correct way, you are fighting being measured by all the parents around you who pamper their children. Our son will survive, and he will have good values if not the best.. Then we can only hope that after he is on his own for a while, he will see the values we taught him helped, and we can go about mending our relationship. Of course each generation did have their "more flexible" parents & whoa be the ones trying to instill values.. Such as in the past one parent might set an earlier curfew then the next, or one might allow you to go to a rock concert and another one wouldn't. So maybe it just "seems" times are tougher to raise a child with good values when the world around you is filled with children & parents who have no boundries. Yet really things have not changed that much after all. It is just now we're the parents and it seems a much harder job then when your role was that of the child, your perspective is different also. But, I personally think it is much worse. We have alot of people who want instant gratification, and expect something for nothing, which makes the current world a very scary place.

Sounds like problems are in your future if you do accept them back. Easiest answer is to say "NO, thank-you" (always be polite!) But if you did, even if he is close to 16 or 16, you don't have to give him JASM just because of his rank or his age. Let him earn the respect of his peers before he can get that position (if ever). And make sure if he ever does earn it he knows this does not make him king, he still reports to the ASM & SM. If the parents think that precious will now run the troop, the fact that you are not rolling over and kissing their little angels Eagle toes, may make them rethink rejoining also.

So are these helicopter parents? Is the other troop the easier troop to get through advancement without really doing it the right way, but your the better troop in program and working with the scouts? Is this a scout who is trying to make eagle very young, like 13 or 14 without the real skills to be in this position? Is he coming to your troop to recruit help because few in the other troop will help him? How are the boys in your troop reacting to helping him with his project. Yes, we are a service organization, but I can tell you in our troop the turnout of boys to help an Eagle candidate does reflect on the eagle candidates past participation in the troop and his help on Eagle projects of other boys. It is the difference of showing up for one event for half a day and considering you did your duty, or showing up to 5 or 6 project dates and working the full day. They may get a rude awakening when the turn out is low from your troop to work the project. I definitely would talk to the parents and the boy about what his plans are after he makes Eagle, and discuss if they had so much conflict with your troop in the past, why do they think it will be different now. If it is to just hang out and enjoy the program, then are parents going to back off so the scout can be a member of your program. If he is going for palms, let them know the way you run your program has not changed and you will expect true leadership with INCREASING responsibility based on his rank as Eagle and as he moves though palms. I forget what was said to my son when he went finished his 2nd palm and was going to start work on his 3rd palm, but they did expect some sort of increasing responsibility, from him, I just forget what it was. He ended up on merit badge short of getting that, but I do think he put in the extra effort in the leadership for the troop. If he is not yet 16, I would not give him any special rank or privileges either (like JASM or being moved into the adult ranks. Unless the privileges) unless the privileges were already given to other young Eagles in your troop, but JASM does have an age requirement of 16-17. Let them know that up front before coming back. Basically go over everything that was an issue with them in the past, and let them know things have not changed in the expectations of the boys in your troop, whether at Eagle rank or not. Then let them decide if maybe a 3rd troop may be better for them to try.

I do agree the BOR is not for hard testing, and failing of scouts. The first troop our son was in did that, one boy was flunked 3 or 4 times until he passed. We would practice test with our son for a week grilling him with all sorts of questions on the rank he was going for and the below ranks so that he could pass it. They were brutal! Later we found out it wasn't the proper way to do a BOR. But, the EBOR can choose to not pass an Eagle canadate. take the scout who comes into a EBOR and states he is an atheist. Or there is something not right about the project the scout did. Like one boy stated his project would be X,Y,Z and came back with a completely altered project that had no benifit to the community. Our current Troops BOR has also choose to delay the BOR for another evening when a scout came to it in his soccer uniform. Once it was rescheduled also when a scout going for the rank of LIFE could not say the scout oath. His next board would be the EBOR and he couldn't recite the oath? Also the error was like the first thing done in the meeting and the boy just went downhill from there because he was internally beating himself up for the mistake. It was just better to have a redo the next week, the boy came in prepared and confident and the whole BOR was so much better for him. We will always have 3 registered committee members on the board, but could have a 4th from the community or a visiting Adult Leader Scout from another unit. We try to have a district member sit on the BOR for Star & Life, the scout needs to get use to having different people on the board before going to the Eagle board where they will all be different people. As for the SM & ASM's not being present for the BOR.. I believe that is a must. The BOR is trying to find out what they can improve in the unit. If there is a problem the boy has is with the program or the SM, they will not speak freely with them in the room. It is rare to get a scout to open up as is if they feel that what they say will get back to the SM by the adults in the room, but it is a sure thing it will not happen if they know the problem is a negitive reflection on someone who is sitting in the room, and who they fear could make their next rank advancement a real nightmare. The SM had his time with the scout during the SM conference, he does not need to be present at the BOR. If something pertains to him, the committee should address it but not with a "Johnny scout says ...." but at a different time so it is not obvious it came from Johnny. It would probably be brought the the CC or COR attentions so they can be the ones to address the issue with the SM or ASM.

the only added idea I have is nighttime orienteering. We left very small glo sticks at the correct coordinates, where you couldn't see it until you were almost upon it.