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moosetracker

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Everything posted by moosetracker

  1. Like Oak Tree I see it as a second Webelos II den.. (If the pack already has a 2nd WII then better would to just transfer him into the other existing den). The Pack may be ok with it or not.. Really how you approach it will be how they will react to it. You should assess the situation more before jumping. Any chance you could come to a den meeting watch the relationship, (with an open mind, you current have a one sided story) then sit down and discuss it with den leader & the mother. If the relationship can be fixed by communication, leave things alone. If not and the 3 of you agree that it is best for the scout not to be in the den, then approach the CM. But if you take on this scout you may know what the issue is that causes him not to fit in with this den, and be able to work on it. Unless you want to set up a permenant "Lone Scout" program, you will need to make sure you can get him to be able to fit into a troop when you are done.
  2. Oh it is just a sarcastic image of a parent who does not allow their child to grow up and grow independent of their parents influence. Simply if you as a parent only help your child by nagging and reminding them to do what they need to, rather then teach them to be self dependent an have good habits in order to do for themselves.. Then you will need to follow them to college.. It is really an impracticle image because as the child matures he will not take kindly to a parents' constant hovering. Then the parent becomes the cockroach that the child will squash dead. But it was made to get a point across.
  3. So how was the sleeping arrangement under the bed in the dorm room?.. Packsaddle - I am unsure if the cockroach is refering to you or JMBadger.. (If it was me, I am still in gear and raiding your pantry, right now..) I think though it might be JM as I think I did squash him, he isn't running around here any more. With JMBadger: Actually with JMBadger - I thought I started out being nice.. I appoligized and tried to explain why his reasoning was not right.. When he wiggled is antenes at me and attacked.. I then mash it to smithereens.. With you.. You have been around the boards to know better so I figured you just wanted to fan the flames.. So you got what you asked for, since I had yet to put the flames out. Really I did not mean to attack to the point of having him run out. But people trying to alter requirements by stating it does not state you can't.. Does get me going.
  4. Packsaddle - As a parent you can do what you want as in do your homework, or eat your veggies.. But even with this you should find ways to ween him off of "YOU" being a necessary element, by finding ways for him to take responsibility for tracking and doing his homework, such as keeping a date planner with his homework assignment & referencing it, and helping him find ways to enjoy certain veggies by trying new ones or old ones in diff. recipies. Otherwise when he goes off to college pack your bags because he will flunk college & get sick without you there to say.. "Do your homework" "Eat your veggies".. (No worries you can live under his dorm room bed.) With scouting you can "practice" scout skills like ax saftey or First aide.. But must back off until he can do it on his own.. If he can not do a scout skill without mamma or daddy at his side, then he can not do a scout skill.. With Family Life, learning how to chart and track and get into a good habit of chores you can also help by letting him get use to doing chores around the house, before starting the badge. But to get signed off for doing a requirement for a MB it should be on his own, unless stated, with your MBC, or with your family, or with a buddy.. Like in family Life there is this requirement.. "5.Plan and carry out a project that involves the participation of your family ..." It states it is to be carried out with your families participation. This is unlike the following. "3.Prepare a list of your regular home duties or chores (at least five) and do them for 90 days. Keep a record of how often you do each of them." I see only "your" and "you".. Nothing about "with your family", or "with a parent" That means the scout does the requirement on his own.. No help from Mom, Dad, SM, or MBC (or anyone else you think you found a loophole to add). Now the parent (and scout) can do whatever they choose behind the back of the MBC and have the scout go to the MBC and take all the credit for doing it correctly and get signed off.. The MBC will never know, unless they think to ask if the scout did it without any help and the scout is honest.. But really what are you teaching your son? Helping your child "PRACTICE" skills is all well and good. Getting them going on good habits is also a parents job.. But it should be in a way that slowly lets him become self sufficient.. With or without scouts in your life.
  5. NJScouter - some of us I don't think evmori nor I have a problem with it. It is just we don't have a problem with other teaching methods or styles either. Some of us are just plain neutral. For me: Should the scouts learn how to teach and train? "Yes, absolutely.. It is essential they learn if they are to become true leaders." Do I mind if EDGE is the style that BSA wants to introduce? "No, up to a point. Everyone should look at all different types and styles. So BSA introducing EDGE as a method of teaching is not a bad thing. But, if they want to cram it down someones throat that it is the only good way to teach. Then I have a problem. Because there are many good ways to teach. And sometimes give the person, or the pubil EDGE may just not be a good way to teach at all." Introduce the concept, but then introduce other concepts, expose us to a whole rainbow of concepts so that we have the ability to pick the one that suits us, or take parts & pieces from various styles and create our own unique style. If you do this, then you will have developed a really great teacher. Lets pull back from EDGE which is "teaching you to teach" and just look at what it is to teach.. Isn't introducing a whole host of concepts so that the student can choose the best solution for themselves.. So that you train someone to be an independent thinker the best type of teacher to have? So why wouldn't offering different teaching styles and allowing someone a choice to develop their own training style develop the best type of teacher?
  6. Thanks Beavah, I missed the part of I added to my sons requirements, due to not being consecutive. I myself teach family life. I have had scouts try that or the attempt to find a chore they only have to do once during the 3 months and tell me "It doesn't state how many times you need to chart the task.".. With both I flip to page in the merit badge book that shows an example of how to set up your charting. The chart example does not show a week in January and a few day in Feb.. etc.. And the chores may not need to be daily, but they at least are done once a week.. Don't try to beat the system. All you do is teach your son how to cheat. And that is not the type of charactor that BSA is trying to develop in him. Again I am sorry, if it sounds harsh.. Especially if you are a new cross-over parent. Many new cross-overs have to have time to learn what the whole game of scouting is about. It takes a while to realize it is different. But it is the greatest game going if you want to raise a son that you are proud of.
  7. I vote with AlFansome.. 2.5 for me.. People teach best using styles they are comfortable with, it may be EDGE, it may not be. People learn though different methods it may be EDGE it may not be. I don't think it's the end of the world to learn what EDGE is, but it is not bad to be exposed to other ideas and approches also. Then you have to figure out if this is a comfortable style for you to learn or teach with. When my son was in school, I watch as the teachers told him exactly what notebooks he must use exactly how he was to arrange his subjects for the best way to be orgainized. The kid just was flustered by the whole process, it just wasn't the best way for him to be organized or study with. In middle school I told him don't worry by high school you have the right to organize how it works best for you.. High school came and they were still dictating.. By Junior year he set up the way they dictated and changed over a month after they checked him off.. By Senior year, he just ignored them. It is fine to give people ideas on what is a decent method.. But people have to get many ideas and find what is right for them. They can not be pushed into a one method and one method only type of concept. People are individual and unique by design. Let them color outside the lines if it makes them feel happy.
  8. Since we want to play that game, show me where it states a parent can remind you to keep track of your tracking and charting.??? We're not allowed to add to or subtract from the requirements. The whole program is meant to make the boy self sufficient. In what requirement does it ever state.. Serve as cook (but don't let your parents help you.) .. Do this type of lashing (but on your do it on your own.).. Why can't we run the whole program with the parents helping the boys to get their requirements done.. You can help him pack his gear, pitch his tent, cook for the patrol etc.. etc.. etc.. because no where in the manual does it state "Without the help of your parents".. But it never states to do everything with the help of your parents.. How is your son learning independence and confidence? That is the whole point of scouting, not to earn merit badges and ranks.. TO LEARN TO DO FOR YOURSELF.. I hope your son never gets lost in the woods without you.
  9. JMBadger - "He has to be reminded almost every day to do the chores and to record them. Does it mean he hasn't earned the badge because I practically dragged him along to get it done? No, he did the work (grudgingly) so he earns the badge".. Right there you have stated why a boy can get Eagle young. He is not doing the 3 months of tracking and charting on his own. His parent is. He is too young to be self-motivated to do it on his own. When my son took it, he would forget we would wait a week to see if he remembered, and at that point let him know he did not fullfill his 3 months of following a routine. He restarted that 3 month chart over literally 3 times before he followed it by himself. When the other 2 MB with 3 month charting came around, he followed them from beginning to end in one shot, with no motivation from his parents. Sorry JM.. But your son may get his MB signed off, but he was not self motivated to do it himself. He was guided by a parent wanting to see him get rank advancement before he was mature enough to do so.
  10. sailingpj - There is a difference between you & a 14 yo.. It is age and maturity. If a boy joins a troop at age 15 for the first time and works and gets his Eagle at 17 people would not point and say your parents did it for you. Because at about 14 you start maturing, most go into a rebellious stage in order to break the apron strings and will do nothing their parents tell them to. You are also better able to focus, pick up on complex subjects and skills faster and set a goal and work towards it. This is not to say that there are not a few 14 yo's capable of this same feat. But, they are really very gifted and exceptional. When you have a whole troop cranking our Eagles at 12, 13 or 14, you have to wonder about the focus of their program, because it is hard to imagine that all those gifted and exceptional children just landed in that troop. Maybe, it might be like my example of a troop that has all it's eagles trying to outdo the other for getting as close as possible to the 18 birthday and pulling it off at the last minute with their SM trying to get them to stop playing this game of dare.. Maybe some troop somewhere has all young scouts daring each other to get it earlier then the last scout, and the SM and the parents are yelling at them to cut it out, and concentrate on other aspects of the program, and find fun enjoyment and adventure in scouting, but all these scouts want to do is beat the other one to the rank of Eagle faster then the last scout. I mean, it could happen.. Couldn't it? You could of joined us in our discussion.. We don't bite Sea Scouts... Honest!
  11. You can take CM Specifics on line and should to get yourself quickly up and running.. But because everything is in such bad shape I would see if your district or a neighboring district is holding an in person course. The person-to-person contact will let you ask alot of questions. And it seems that right now the more you learn, the more questions you will have. I am a little freightened to suggest this, because if you do not get adult help soon, you will burn out, but you also should attend your districts round tables. It is filled with other Cub masters who you can meet with and ask questions of. It will give you information, but add one more night a month to your overload. But you have nothing in your pack to tell you how an organized pack runs, so you need to pull that info from talking to others that are in an organized pack to get a sense of how the pack should operate. Good Luck.
  12. Oh he is not frustrated with them not making Eagle.. Just in that they all want to make Eagle but do so in playing a game of "chicken" or "Dare" or what have you and try to one-up each other on how close they can get to their 18th BD.. It means in order to make it, the project is real close to their 18th BD and work weekends for it are not always convenient. Also if their planning on their Project goes haywire just a little they stand the chance of not succeeding. I am sure he knows in the long run if they don't get it then it is there fault. But, it is frustrating. I hope they don't hear of the boy from a town over who got his project approved by the Board 2 weeks before his 18th Birthday, then still had to do the project within the 2 week time period.. His troop SM was not to happy with him either. In fact he applogized to my husband for having to bring in this piece of #!@#.. Because he too had the whole troop jumping hoops so he made it on time. The SM doesn't even think he was appreciative of all the scouts hard work and shifting of their schedules to make it happen for him.. Now if troop A knew about this Eagle in troop B, then they would have to out do him in having a shorter time period.. Has anyone gotten in the Guinness World Records for the shortest time period for an Eagle project & the longest time period? If so Troop A would need to break the shortest record.
  13. Basementdweller - my son & I were talking about this thread. He mentioned one troop that seemed to every month bring one or two boys to the EBOR.. He asked if that was an Eagle mill.. Then before I could tell him "No" he figured out himself that it wasn't.. Why.. Because mostly all their Eagles are "deathbed Eagles".. The SM is frustrated with the way the play the game of chicken to see who can come the closest to that 18 yo cut off, but seems unable to make them understand, one day one of them will cross over that line and loose their chance at the Eagle award. So alot of names per year making Eagle, can not be the only attribute.. Really you would probably have to know the troop very well to see what they do and don't do and if they have a well balanced program, or are way off balance and only concentrating on running Eagles through in order to judge with any accuracy if this is an "Eagle Mill" or not. At least that is my opinion, and why I have yet to label any troop with it.
  14. Oh EDGE type of training with or without the acronym has been around for a long time. But it is still not the only way to train. Nor is it really the way BSA trains.. I don't think any of our BSA Adult training really uses EDGE or it's equivalent. IOLS or OWL could maybe use it if we held the training for a week.. We simply don't have time to train everything that must be covered in 2 days while using EDGE. BS & CS specifics is training that just doesn't lend itself to EDGE. YPT can not at all lend itself to EDGE.. Any of the trainings that might be useful to EDGE but are on-line trainings are simply not EDGE. like climb on safely, Weather Hazards, trek-saftey, saftey afloat, safe swim defense.. None of them are EDGE simply because they are on-line. You can train someone by not doing a lecture, but teaching them over and over until the can do it in their sleep. Maybe someone only learns by doing so you skip over Explain & Demonstrate, and move strait to Guide & then test them (which may considered enable). Some people only learn by leaving them alone to read and work through it themselves.. So none of the EDGE is going to work for them. People learn by different methods unique to them and so with some parts of EDGE are a waste of time, with others nothing in EDGE works for them.. With other it may be the perfect method for them to be taught with. But.. You need time to do it, and you need a subject that lends itself to this type of training.
  15. PS.. Kudu.. I never claimed EDGE is a good training method, simply "Some people disagree that EDGE is a good training method".. So you proved my point. I don't claim EDGE is Good, it is simply a way some may use to train. There are many other styles that are just as good.. But in some way or another your older scouts need to know how to train the younger scouts. Right now BSA is into EDGE, so that's the requirement.
  16. Tah-dah one of those who dislikes EDGE.. But, Kudu will expect his scouts (or at least some of them) to know their skills backwards & forwards and know how to train. Just not using EDGE. If he was into Adult lead, or untrained, ignorant unskilled scouts or they would get lost while out in the woods without Adult leadership. Edge he may skimp on the requirement, because he finds it worthless.. But, I bet he (or rather his older scouts) wont sign off on the cooking requirement on the first burnt piece of toast a scout serves up to his patrol, or if they stubble through a first run of CPR. If he did, then he would be beat in a Camporee.. Because his scouts will still be lost in the woods from last week and never make it to the Camporee. Do you even do Camporees Kudu? Seems like too tame an event for your troop.
  17. OK.. coming into this discussion a little late, but very interesting. Shrubber, sounds like you will not back down no matter what is said.. But, I will need to side with Beavah on this one, Although I think Beavah trying to come up with a test for Saving money was not good (sorry Beavah).. My interpretation to Shubbers posting of BSA policy in defense of his viewpoint that the EDGE requirement is something that should not be tested does not agree with Shrubber nor Beavah. And explains what can be tested by the SM & maybe what should not. Quoted from: Advancement Policies #33088, pages 24) "A Boy Scout advances from Tenderfoot to Eagle by doing things with his patrol and his troop, with his leaders, and ON HIS OWN" "A Scout MAY be tested on rank requirements by his patrol leader, Scoutmaster, assistant Scoutmaster, a troop committee member No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement. 1) A Boy Scout advances from Tenderfoot to Eagle by doing things with his patrol and his troop, with his leaders, and ON HIS OWN Interpretation: This does not mean he can do something outside of the troop, decide he is successful, and come to a troop meeting to expect it sign off. If it were, we should just stay with the cub scout method of having parents sign-off in the books. What it means is that he can practice on his advancement outside the troop.. ex. He could practice the safety rules of the ax outside the scout meetings (with parents guidance since until he learned it he shouldnt be let loose with an ax) , he could practice first aide requirements outside the troop with others. Boys should be encouraged to work on advancement on his own time ON HIS OWN and not just in a troop meeting, this will allow him to advance faster. That means with the EDGE requirement, by all means work on his advancement outside of the troop with a friend, or the store clerk.. 2 ) A Scout MAY be tested on rank requirements by his patrol leader, Scoutmaster, assistant Scoutmaster, a troop committee member Interpretation: Here is where I interpret different then Beavah.. May doesnt mean refers to the many different people who could be designated to sign-off.. It means he may be tested or he may not.. Which doesnt mean he may not be tested if Shubber decrees he doesnt need to be, that is the decision of the SM if he needs to be tested or not. So in the case of the original EDGE requirement your SM decides it is something which should be tested, and he can do so without adding to the requirement, because having him teach in front of him is not adding to the requirement, it is testing him on the requirement. But the SM may decide not to test for the saving of money, because it is hard without adding to the requirements. He also may not test for some of the camping requirements, because he has been on camping trips with the scout and has witnessed him selecting a camp site, or cooking a meal for the patrol. (or an ASM or older boy in the troop has verified it for him).. So MAY to me means the SM may choose to test, or he may not.. You should support him, as it is his right. Now Shrubber I doubt I will convince you anymore than anyone else has, because I think Beavah did an excellent job (except for that Savings example).. But I also want to add the following.. Your statement BSA hardly seems to omit things from a lack of printers ink... BSA writes A LOT, but BSA is known to be vague in their writings and thus subject to interpretations in many things, it makes for a lot of long discussion threads on these forums.. I may see Beavah interpretation, but I disagree. If I close one eye, squint real hard and look at your interpretation through colored glasses, I may even see your interpretation, but disagree. Others may see all 3 of our interpretations and disagree. Right now you are not SM, therefore your SM has interpreted the advancement method similar to many of us who have answered your thread. Your choice is to support him, or to find another troop with your interpretation. If you support him, then have your son practice the EDGE method on whomever he wishes outside of scouts until he is proficient and then have him take pride in being able to go to a troop meeting and show off his knowledge. Maybe someday you will be SM, and can interpret this your own way. But, just remember if you want to truly have a boy run troop, then one of the most important skills is that the older scouts can train and teach the younger scouts. Some people disagree that EDGE is a good training method, but regardless training your scouts to train others is very important in a boy run troop, without it it means that either Adults will need to teach & train, or your older scouts will do a poor job of it.. Either way if you are SM, you may get your scouts their ranks quickly, but dont be surprised if they come in dead last at a camporee competition with the other troops first year patrols even beating out your Star & Life scouts. Do you want a troop that merely signs everything off and gives your son his rank? Or do you want your son to learn, grow and become a confident self-sufficient young man? Your choice. Really at this point it should be your sons choice, if he wants to stay with this troop and become very confident of his scouting skills or go to a troop with an easy advancement policy, but learns little from the expierience. I doubt you will give him the opportunity, though because you will just feed him your one-sided viewpoint to base his decision on.
  18. If it is your woodbadge ticket to "educate the pack on these awards".. Just showing up with on your uniform is not the right way to go.. You may not have one, but if your pack has a Pack trainer, then they should help you in asking someone to present the award to you. Otherwise ask either the CM or the CC (depending on what your position is).. Either one of these positions should be wanting adults in the pack to be educated as well. The DL I like the idea bought the Den of scouts awarding it to you, if a DL or a committee member you can choose a few scouts maybe out of a den your son is in, or the CM could award you with it, or the CC could find an ACM if they are not someone who does public speaking that much. Next time if and old thread answers your question, great.. If not start a new thread.. More people read a new thread & answer it because it has the words "new" on it. But do not bother reading the older threads unless it was a topic they have been active in. Although not completed yet yet it might be nice to mention that this earning this knot was part of one of your woodbadge tickets and a little about what would badge is about. You don't have to get into the "I am trying to educate you about it".. Just it was part of a ticket.. That way you educate them also on what woodbadge is about, although they may hear it again at your beading ceremony, if you choose to hold it in front of the pack.. it doesn't hurt to let them hear it more then once.
  19. I have read all the others discriptions and don't dispute them, as I said, I there are more indicators then my small list. Mine is a small list and really states the worst case scenerios.. Where anyone (except maybe packsaddle) could recognize the "Eagle Mill".. Similar to the term "helecopter parent" there are varying stages of how bad a unit can get with it, or if a unit might sway slightly to being more so. And like the term "helecopter parent" the term could be thrown out more easily by some then others.. And when you get into the units that have hints of putting advancement above all else in a program some will be quick to term the Eagle Mills and some will not. Most people, including the original poster believe the term was in-appropriately used in this case, because you can not define a whole unit based on one of their Eagles that had a poor presentation for reasons unknown. Also like a helecopter parent most units will not recognize they are one, or term themselves as one, they believe they are following the full program. Same as a hyprocondriac, same as a alcoholic, same as a perfectionist.. Until they are ready to change, they will not recognize it. Same as all these problems there will also be people quick to judge. Does that mean that there are none, or that those who are the quickest to judge are sometimes (or more times then not) getting it wrong. Personally I have never seen a unit that I have labeled an Eagle Mill.. Doesn't mean I am unaware of what the term means, and may someday term some unit as one. Nor have I ever labeled anyone an alcholic, or perfectionist.. But I have labeled one of my grandmothers a hypocondric along with the rest of my family. And I have noticed a few helecopter parents, and have seen some descriptions in this forum that make me think helecopter parent, but I see people on this forum leap to the term much quicker then I would. Packsaddle, you may never care to use the term yourself, but frankly if you can not find what people mean when they use the term, give up because you will never understand it, simply because you choose not to.
  20. Agree with and adding to shortridges post.. If your troop is as top-notch as you think, your scouts with tenor in the troop, and your Adult leaders should be able to bring a transfer's skill set up.
  21. Packsaddle as suspected you knew perfectly well what it was, you just wanted us to list them so that you could dispute them.. Lets take #1 again.. I started out saying Have the expectation that the majority of boys To argue that that means that if one boy waits until 18 this may disqualify them from the label.. wouldnt work because Expectations & majority.. does not mean 100% success or you are disqualified. We could redo the entire list, but no need..That would be redundant. Lets analyzed hypochondriac when do you move from just being someone who takes care of their health to being a hypochondriac? Do all hypochondriacs have to have all the same exact list of symptoms, complaints and personality traits exactly all alike to be labeled? If a doctor labels his patient a hypochondriac, and it is later discovered they did have an illness does that mean no one is a hypochondriac? Lets discuss when a person who committees premeditated murder is worthy of 20 years, life, life without parole, or the death sentence. What is the concreate checklist formula for each sentencing.. If one of these people are discovered falsely accused, does that mean we have falsely accused them all, and should release all the murderers currently behind bars? As BrentAllen stated, you will know one when you see it. It is enough of the mixture of the list, that the boys are not running their own program, and they are run through a formula set up by the adults to get them to Eagle rank as quickly as possible, like little puppets. It could be any or all of this list or many others I am not aware of. You need to get these boys to eagle by 13 or 14 or else the rebellious teenage years will start to kick in when the boy will no longer follow obediantly.
  22. I would agree, if the things they weren't side stepping were a Council Jamboree and a district Camporee. That usually takes no planning either. Unless they ask you to make and bring certain items.
  23. Are you the SM, or do you know if the SM is in agreement with you. How about, not handfeeding them their activities but putting up a manditory challenge, that the next event the plan needs to be something they have never done before.. Or if you really want to break the "same old same old" routine, then make the challege that every other event or every third event they plan needs to be something they have never done before for the next year. Then help them by having a brainstorming sessions, with just the PLC, or at a troop meeting with all the scouts in attendance.
  24. I am sure you two really do know what people refer to by Eagle Mill. Although I am unsure if this example is a sure sign of one, because boys can have pluses & weaknesses and learn to depend on their teammates for those skills they do not possess.. If you learn true leadership or teamwork by utilizing your manpower around you to the best of your ability, but don't possess all the charactoristics your self you still could be a worthy Eagle. Anyway when I hear EagleMill this is what I see. 1) Have the expectation that the majority of boys should make Eagle at 13 or 14, and pride themselves and point to this young advancement as a proof of them running a successful program. 2) Run merit badges during troop meetings as if in a classroom setting. Boys do not have to have the desire to learn the MB, or put much effort in to the MB, just show up and take up space. 3) Do not plan an event unless it is riddled with a list of the advancements they will work on during the event. Adults lead the boys through them. 4) Program is very Adult driven without giving anything to offer the boys a true boy led troop. 5) Once someone completes a requirement, little time is spent on honing the skill. You go through the motions, do it and then forget it as you move on to the next thing on your list of requirements. 6) Little emphisis is put on fun just for ... well... the fun of it. Or learning leadership, or building charactor. You just jump hoops and work through a checklist as if it was a grocery list. Other people can add or dispute this list. But, this is what I see as a Troop that is an Eagle Mill.
  25. Oh our past 2 SM's vote alone would not be the deciding factor, but they both had a way to "rally the troops" so they easily could have marched into any meeting with their 4 or 5 ASM's behind them, and thier 3 or 4 committee members who were more ASM then committee and have swayed the vote. Without the SM or ASM's having voting rights they would sway the 3 or 4 committee members and all other committee members would listen to both sides and form their own unbiased opinion. But, it is not an issue of the SM & ASM's normally having the right to vote, which the committee denied. It is the issue that the committee is not suppose to give voting rights to the SM & ASM by the BSA policy & procedures, and our committee never saw fit to bend that rule. Personnally I would have bent it, but I am only one vote on the committee. Not because SM's & ASM's are childishly hosting a rebellion (that causes me not to bend it, simply not to want to reward childish behavior.) But because under normal circumstances I don't see the harm.
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