moosetracker

Ooops.. Should have previewed last post before sending. sorry about not closing the italics. So I have spent 1/2 hour pondering how to interpret dependably doing chores on a daily/weekly basis, but not having to do the 90 days consecutively.. And I have come up with my interpretation (which JM, or anyone else can jump all over..) Actually the spelling out in the MB book of Most tasks need to be done daily was not spelled out in the older MB book. I would just show scouts the example chart and tell them from the example your chores need to be at least once a week. Most scouts chose most chores that were not daily. So JM forced me to re-read the book, and really charting just got harder because most chores must be daily. I remembered one scout that was going away on vaca for a week, and he asked me how he could continue his 90 charting while away from home. I consoled that the MB requirement, did not state the chores had to remain the same. So I had him choose other chores for that week. This option would get around that problem quite nicely as they are not required to do their chores while away from home. Never had it, but this would solve breaking the consecutive if the scout landed in the hospital, or now with daily chores got sick to the point they were in bed for a day or two. These are ways that yes I would say they took the charting of chores seriously, did it on a daily basis, they showed their family they could be depended on to do the chores, and they carried it out for 90 days even if there were explainable lapses where the chart had to be extended to 97 or 104 days or whatever. But, JM the future scouts I counsel will have you to thank for the fact they can no longer get by with choosing 5 chores that are not daily. One or two OK, but no more then that..

JM: Your state the following: If I ever find a requirement that says "without anyone reminding him," then I'll keep my mouth shut and let him forget (if that is what happens), but until then I will assume I can remind him that things This is from the merit badge pamphlet, page 17 Share Roles & Responsibilities (this is the starting page on what the 90 day chart is all about.) It is also a good way for you to prepare for the future and the responsibilities that will be required of you as an adult. A good way to show your responsibility and commitment to your family is to do your chores without complaining or being asked.. When you carry out these responsibilities, you are letting the family members know that you love them and that they can depend on you. Page 18 19 list chore example, 20 finishes up chore examples then states the following. Use the sample home duties chart to create your own. Most of these tasks need to be done every day. At the foot of the chart it states. (Denotes a chore that should be done as needed or at least once a week.) I see where you got your wording. But, it was not there 10 years ago when my son did his. The merit badge book was and the merit badge book trumpets the on-line work sheet in my mind because it is stated in any info on how to do a merit badge that the scout should read the MB book. But does not state he needs to go on line to get a worksheet. Few even know of the on-line sources. So from now on if a scout can come to me with a chart covering 90 days of chores that the majority he did on a daily basis and a few at least once a week, that covers a 2 or 5 year period from when he started boy Scouts, I will sign off his chart. (I am not sure how he will manage doing thing daily or weekly for 90 days over several years, but if he does... I sure hope one of those chores is not to feed the cat or dog, as they may go through a dozen or more animals before they complete the chart. Sure will show their family they love them and they can depend on them." But, now you need to concede that since it is in writing, in the family life merit badge books your son has read (I am sure).. Your son has not been doing his 90 days of charting without being asked or without his complaining..Remember you stated did the work (grudgingly) , so I would suspect doing the work grudgingly while you drag him over to do it can be seen as complaining... But dont worry, now when he forgets or chooses today is not a day I want to do my chores.. He may finish before his 18th birthday doing his 90 days of daily / weekly chores. I will be nice though and give you a hint of what you can do to help. Let him put the chart up where it is in his face in a noticeable spot so the chart reminds him. My son had it on the main door we use to go outside, then when it was there long enough that he no longer noticed it he moved it to a bathroom mirror (luckily not the one my husband used to shave in.) Maybe then he might finish before his 16th birthday. Now with computers this might be changed to a computer reminder if he has his own computer area that he goes into daily. Grant it, this isn't quite what an adult would need to do to remember to cook dinner every night so their family can eat, or to wash the dishes so they don't get packsaddle's cockroaches. But, there is nothing in the MB Book that states the scout can't find a system that works to remind himself. He though still need to have the maturity to go and do those chores on his own without complaint, once he is reminded of it. Once he starts doing this on his own, you are most welcome to praise and compliment him on the great job he is doing, to reinforce his feeling good about it. Rather then drag and nag and make chores a negative.. Praise and compliment and help make him feel good about the chores he is doing.

While my den did have a policy of at least one parent staying, it was simply because there was a policy of the entire pack. This was a while back son was webelos, and I am unsure if the cub specifics brought up the fact that by Webelos II the parents should be weened of staying for the whole meeting. Anyway, all we did as parents is talk in a corner and stay out of the DL's way.. But now the specifics is pretty clear that in a Webelos II den the parents should not stay, so the DL is incorrect to even demand that. Really this parent is the only one that is following what a parent should do at this level. Luckily she will have no issues when the boy crosses over, although troops don't like drop and go parents who don't take a few minutes to understand the program, they are fine with parents who may only come for a few minutes at the beginning or end, or get involved with helping in small ways when they can. But they also deal with the drop and go parent, if that is all she can offer. Honestly Kathy, I did not read ego in your posts either.. But neither did I read anything "from you" about the boy being the cause of the problem, and yet it that same post stated he should stay and deal with the situation he created. Basementdweller is someone I normally agree with, I am unsure if he has mis-read this thread, (maybe thinking you posted the piece about the boy peeing on the rug when it was I in jest) or this is reminding him of a past event he was in that was the scouts fault, or if we are on so totally different wavelengths with this that I just can not see his viewpoint at all. Personnally I think you are doing fine by this scout to make this offer. Best of luck to you and to him.

Sorry that you took offense.. If you read the part in the post before you wiggled your "antenne at me" I stated the following.. "Packsaddle - I am unsure if the cockroach is refering to you or JMBadger.. (If it was me, I am still in gear and raiding your pantry, right now..) I think though it might be JM as I think I did squash him, he isn't running around here any more." I also put myself and or packsaddle in the role of cockroach, but then just deduced it must be you because you were missing, and it was supposed to be a extinct one. I was trying to humor you into coming back. Anyway you state the following.. "In all advancement and badges, the boy must do the requirements as written, no more, no less. If the requirement says the boy must do work, he does it alone. If it says "with someone's guidance," I guide as I can without actually doing any of the real work. If it says, "with a parent's help," I can pitch in." All that is very true.. Now tell me where in the tracking and charting does it state "with a parent's help" ? Then tell me how your following comment doesnt ring of helping if not making him do something.. "He has to be reminded almost every day to do the chores and to record them. Does it mean he hasn't earned the badge because I practically dragged him along to get it done? No, he did the work (grudgingly)" Reminding and dragging an unwilling child around to do the requirement, is very much not a boy doing something on his own.. Which is as Beavah stated, subtracting from the requirement. OK.. Now lets take this statement of yours.. Now I have a weekend hiking trip to leave for. Yes, I'm going to remind the boys they should have compasses and first-aid kits and anything else I think they may forget. Ok, this is not for sign-off on a requirement, so do what you want. But compare it to how I approached the same thing with my son. When he started BS I sat with him and the BS handbook at the computer and I typed in what he pulled off the packing list. Then he added anything else he wanted to bring. The first time he packed I printed off the list, let him pack and checked it over. The second time he packed HE printed off the list, he packed and I checked it over. After that he printed, packed and I never got involved again. The list had the compass, first aid kit, rain jacket, pocket knife etc.. Now what did I teach my son? What did you teach your son? As you stated you came to this forum to learn. So you can take our advice, or continue to push your son through jumping hoops. He can get Eagle and learn nothing from it, but it will look nice on the college app. That is sad for the missed opportunity to teach your son to be self-relient, confident, and have character. Most of us parents do not have the understanding of what "good" scouting is all about, we have to learn what the real purpose of scouting is about. My "Ahh-Ha" moment came when my son on his 2nd week with the troop went to an Eagle project. My son got out of the car and picked up what he could carry of the Tools he brought. He started up the hill, I picked up what he could not carry and followed him up. When the SM saw us, he turned to my son and asked.. "Where is your shovel?" I had his shovel so I waved it.. My son knew better.. "It's in the car, sir" "Go get it" my son turned to go, and I am totally confused.. The SM then stopped him and said "Your mother has your shovel. Explain to her that she can not carry your things for you.".. I thought I was helping. It wasn't that my son carried nothing and I carried it all. It seemed perfectly natural to pick up and carry what he could not. But I learned that day. Maybe this thread is not your "Ahh-Ha" moment. But, I hope someday you will have it for the sake of your son's personal growth.

JM.. It was all in good humor, stemming off of packsaddles out of the blue comment about not beating up on cockroaches.. None of it was 100% serious. Just realize from now on, if a requirement does not say "do with xyz..." then it translates into "Do on your own".. meaning no teamwork, no reminders, no dragging of the unwilling.. And 90 days does not mean "180 days in which you tracked something for 90 days somewhere in there". Good to see we didn't frighten you away permenantly..

for the red one. I know my husband got the red one years ago and it was a nice thick wool, it was a jacket. When my sons friend made eagle I volunteered to pick one up for her to give as a gift for making eagle, it was red, but no thicker then a wool shirt I questioned where the jacket was, and was told it changed to this. A few months back we were in the store I noted that the wool was thicker then a wool shirt but not back to as thick as my husbands. I wish they would put it back to the original thick wool jacket, then stop messing with it. Don't care for the shade of green, but my son's favorite color is green, he may like it.

Both are good points ScoutLass. In the first I know what you are saying, I just have seen this with school teachers, managers at work, in scouting and in other places. If I was honest, I guess I know I have felt that way about people, but I don't think I was in a position where my feelings effected what they were doing, if anything if strong enough I might have chosen to leave a group to dis-associate. I guess I just take this for normal human behavior. So didn't think about the fact it should not be allowed in scouting, because it really should not be allowed for a teacher or manager either. With the second point you summed up my feelings exactly but, I just didn't know how to put that into words as well as you just did.

Basementdweller where did you see that the scout was the one to cause the problem. I have reread IM_kathy's posts again to see if I missed something. I did not.. My son had a issue with a SM once. The thing that made the SM dislike my son was 1) he was young, he was a new crossover and came over due to getting AOL, but was not of age or grade. 2) My son was on the quiet shy side. 3) My son buddied up with a boy with disabilities that was in his original den, and so they were both seen as mentally slow. So he would yell at him and tell him he would make sure he never made Eagle, and notify others of changes in an event (like we are meeting at place B at a different time, rather then place A.). So we found another troop. I guess by your account, my son should have apologized for being young, shy and friendly to people with disablities. Because this is what the SM disliked about him. There may be something that the boy did, but you don't have enough info from the DL dislikes him to draw the conclusion that it is all the boys fault and he needs to apologize for it.

ME??? Sarcastic! Not little old me!!!

I have come away from some of those poor teachings of just do it, with no advice on how to look it up to figure out what the teacher was trying to teach me, but didn't because he s--ked at it. Couldn't see what he was doing from two or 3 rows back and just frustrated. If that is how I react I can assure you most boys will react that way, because I will pick up a reference book & read. 90% of the boys don't.. Just doing with others are watching with an attitude of you don't care about those that are watching, or they are a bother and in your way, is not learning the skill of teaching. Again I am not saying they have to use EDGE.. For all I care they could tell you to uses "Beavah's" CRAPPO style or any of the other styles mentioned.. Or give a list of 20 different teaching styles, and let you pick.. But yeah they should do something to indicate what they mean be teach, that it is not some crappy poorly organized do it like your students don't matter.. Use CRAPPO and don't be crappy..

Sorry Bart. I may kill your links at the end.. But, since this was restarted. Is there any test out for OWLS which is almost identical to IOLS. Or is that not available for OWL because it is not a required course.

Thanks, I am already EDGE Trained.. They required I do that as a district Training Chair.. In order to "set a good example".. Luckily no pass/fail grade as I am no public speaker.. But, I did my duty.. They had you tack up little post-it notes on how you will use EDGE in the future.. "I said something like.. "Don't know as my trainers have to do this stuff.. I don't.." I have been forced to eat my words twice now, as I have had to fill in during a training when trainers dropped out at the last minute.

www.scouting.org??? Never heard of it? What's that.. Don't laugh at the District looking to Pack trainers for help.. Maybe not in a way that you are drafted as you say, and just assigned. Not that I will call and draft a Pack Trainer, but I will be visiting units and some of those people I want to meet with in a Pack will be their Pack Trainer in order to see if they might be interested in helping with training at a district level, and if so where their intrests may lie. (Some people may be more organizational others may be more able to teach.. Also their knowledge would have to be in subjects that would be of value to the course taught. I may also use them to look for and pass on names to me of people in scouting who might be good at or willing to be part of the district training staff.. So don't be surprised if you are a Pack Trainer and your district Training chair comes a-knockin'..

I think I may have seen the tale end of that one.. But like Beavah stated.. "Of course, there's nothing that says we can't have one more, eh? " The thing is maybe we don't tell anyone to use the search function because I have tried and it isn't all that good. So I gave up trying to find if there was a thread on the question before, and just go ahead & post it again. Therefore, I would never direct anyone to use the search function.

Yes, that page is similar to what I am getting in the PT Specifics. The info on the "Just don't try to be an "end-all" for a CM which can quickly become a crutch." is the stuff I am after. In what way would he dump on me? Like just comeing to me for answers to questions? Or sending all the Den Leaders to me rather then deal with them? Or expect me to find the Den Leaders for Dens which need leadership?

It sounds like there isn't much to finish this scout up for AOL if what IM_Kathy list is it. If they wanted to end-run to AOL the mother would be in just as much rights to pull the scout out of the den and finish him up as a Lone-scout with her being the Leader.. Instead she is haveing IM_Kathy finish him up, and IM_Kathy seem to be a causual acquantance, so it is no benifit to IM_Kathy to cheat the system for him. Sounds like they are trying to be as much on the up-and-up as possible so that no one can accuse them of cheating to get AOL.

I was the Training Coordinator for the troop, but the position of Pack trainer was not around when my son was in cub scouts. if you had a new Pack Trainer, what information and tips would you give them that will help them do their job. I am looking at rejoining a pack in order to learn more about it, due to my current position in District Training they are wanting me to take Pack trainer.. I know this should be a job for someone who has been in cub scouting for a few years, technically I have been, but so long ago I really am someone green to cub scouting. Parts of the job of Troop training coordinator are the same in the Pack, the adult awards, monitoring who needs training in the unit and encouraging them to take the training. Making people aware of our districts trainings, and finding them the trainings for other districts if our district dates are not convient.. Welcoming the parents of new scouts and getting them acclimated to the program. I also know about the den leader position having had my son be a den leader. I am unsure I want to accept it or not.

As long as that pie is not in the face.. I will take a chocolate cream pie.. Thanks so much! YUM..

Right - I don't mind them introducing EDGE. If they just stated in the book teach and gave no method, then the adults can be as clueless as the scouts. And teach becomes like others stated, maybe no more then the scout who is the teacher doing the skill while others watch. You need to give reference to something where the adults know that the scouts need to have some form of guiding the other scout(s) until they are able to do it for themselves. And that they know what is expected in order to get signed off on the requirement. Other threads have shown that if the requirement is too vague the Troops that want to give the scout a free pass will do bare minimum of a 1 minute demo. The troops that want to have highly skilled scouts will wait until the scout has graduate college with a certificate in teaching. So that they give a guideline to what is expected rather then being vague is good. But EDGE should not be the only method allowed to be used in Scouting.

I don't see it as wrong, Unless you feel this Webelos scout is the soul person responsible for the bad relationship between Den Leader, Mother and Son and should be held accountable for it. As far as you know it could be that the mother drives the DL up a wall, and she just doesn't want to deal with the family.. the DL statement of "I'm tired of dealing with THEM" rather then HIM kind of points to that. It just may be the DL has taken a disliking to this family base on rumors and preconceved notions that no matter what they did, they would never change her mind. Or it may just be that the boy ran threw her house, wrote on the walls, cut up her curtains, and peed on her rug.. But you just don't know. What you do know is that the DL doesn't want to deal with the scout, not just that the scout does not like the DL.. That makes for an uncomfortable atmousphere for the boy if he is not being treated equally and fairly with the other boys. My family changed troops 3 times until we found one that was a good fit. It wasn't a one on one dislike, but definately we were not in agreement with how others chose to run the troop. We have counseled others in the forum to find new troops, or if they have the power to fire CM's or SM's or CC's.. Due to personality conflicts. Why is it so wrong for this boy to have the same rights?

If the CM approves IM_Kathy as a den leader then I think it is acceptable (or does that need the blessing of the CC.. I have been in Troop to long & use to ASM reporting to SM, so I would think DL's report to CM). Anyway if approved by the Pack, it is like a Lone Scout program with a twist because it is attached to a Pack.

Beavah - Great training methods, you gave me a chuckle.

Nah, not our troop, few care for the SM including the boys.

Our committee meeting is held a seprate night so the SM & any ASM that may come (or come to represent the SM) are present. The SM chooses not to come or send a representative, since he is protesting not having a vote at the committee meetings. Instead he sends an email of the SM report & agenda. I no longer am part of the troop (husband & son are).. But if the committee decides on something he doesn't like, it's his fault for choosing not to attend. And no one will give him the vote because they do not care for his childish attitude. But, with normal troops.. Yes have your committee meeting seprate, SM should attend, for all the good reasons others have stated.

Strange - I have been CC. I know if I heard from another troop member that my SM had resigned the first thing I would do is call them and hear it from them, and ask why I wasn't the first to hear of it, rather then hear it through the grapevine. Not swear in a new SM before I talked with the old SM. I know it might be easier with everyone there anyway, but the committee meeting really should not be held during the troop meeting for the fact that you guarentee that it can not be attended by the SM or any ASM's. But you were in the same building, it would not have killed the CC to talk to you before the troop & commitee meeting started, if she could not reach you by phone. Or if the comment was made in the committee meeting to come out and pull one of you aside for a minute to confirm it.