moosetracker

I was thinking the tour permit & G2SS would have listed all that if it was requirements, so I agree with ScoutNut.. I emailed our DE about our council's policies, but he hasn't returned my email yet. I might call and ask the woman who mans the phones and approves the tour permits.. Maybe she will know. Seems more & more like the Council's putting together the policies for the Pack camping & Webeloes Den camping. OWLS in our neck of the woods is only needed if you want a knot on your uniform, awarded for being a Webelos den leader.. Other then that, we always push IOLS for Webelos or SM/ASM, good enough & OWL isn't required. Two per den who are OWL trained ??!!! Wow, that is more severe then Pack Camping you only need one BALOO Trained.. A den may have 8 boys tops, where a Pack may have 50 - 100 out camping! Your council I think is forcing OWL training down your throats.. Then your stuck retaking the practically the same course over again when you get into a troop & need IOLS.

Why should Webelos take 2 yrs? if Bear is 2 months the Webelos should be 3 - 4 months tops.. Then they will wonder why they have to sit around and wait to join a troop.. anyone hear of a 9 or 10 year old Eagle?? (Yeah I know age wise they can't join a troop, just being sarcastic..)

Sad thing is, if you don't get her either straightened out.. (seems impossible) or a person more intune with the program before this den gets into Webelos, even if they make it to AOL, they will most likely drop out of Boy scouts.. Most troops will not run (at least should not run).. their troop in a way that they hand out ranks and meritbadges and sign-off on requirements by just showing up, or by not showing up, but since those that did the requirement got signed off, the others expect to be signed off too. Many troops will expect the boys to be self motivated to earn the requirements & MB.. Webloes is a time to slowly get them adjusted to the way a troop runs, part of that is expecting more effort from them in order to get signed off.. Part of it is letting them start to learn self- motivation.. As well as getting them more prepared for higher adventure with camping and more interesting challenging outings.. She is preparing boys who expect to be hand fed, and they will not be able to work in a troop environment and drop out.

I don't know if this is what they are eluding to, but some study showed that too may kids were going to college, and not enough into the trade buisness that need some education & hands on.. Like automotive & welding etc.. Therefore the kids going into the trades will have alot of opportunities for positions when they get out, but those in the 4 yr + colleges will stuggle to find a position when they get out.

Yeah, the same murkyness came up earlier in the week about the ratio for Pack camping. But with that it more leans to family camping with some sort of fudgy language that sounds like you have leeway, but scouts needed to be assigned to an adult.. What the ratio is is murky, but the leaning for Pack camping is family oriented.. Webelos - I guess does not lean toward family camping although you do have the line of In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian... Which is the same line for Pack camping.. You have It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Pack camping has.. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.. You also have Joint Webelos den-troop campouts including the parents of the Webelos Scouts are encouraged and I don't know about all the troops out there, but our troop will not take a Webelos on a campout without a parent/guardian.. Some how though this wording we are to get that Webloes you don't need a parent, and Pack camping you do.. Clear as mud.. that has black oil and tar mixed in.. Don't get me wrong I am looking for Pack camping to need a parent, while you are looking for the Webeloes do not.. So it's nice we can look at this and see what we wish to see.

I agree with Engineer61 - But will state, keep the thank-you short and quick.. Especially with cubbers.. BS can be a little more to it, but not much more.. Do not drag them out... Have them stand.. Say thank you.. Set them down.. Recognizing them a) makes them feel appreciated, and willing to help more... B) Let's the do-nothing parents know that the unit does not run on air, but the time of parents who do something, so let them squirm and feel uncomfortable for being a do-nothing.. But don't bore the kids.. Engineer - though the SM may have just had tunnel vision & looked at those who report to him.. Not, right but just saying.. Two months ago, I had an IOLS training.. my future Daughter-in-law helped coordinate before the training date, but during the date she was a participant since she needed the course herself, and did not know enough to be a trainer for anything.. So at the end of the course, I thanked all my trainers.. I forgot to thank my daughter-in-law, though she did a terrific job.. My son told me my error in time so I could add her to the list of people to thank.. The participants helped by also thanking her for the informative email they sent her.. I still fell awful for having forgot her in the first place.. I was just searching my mind for those who had helped during the event, and had tunnel vision, and did not think of before the event.

Since you called several CM's.. I take it there were a few other Packs to choose from??.. I would start out calling them again. And visiting a Den meeting or Pack meeting or Pack committee meeting to get the feel of the Den you son would most likely be placed in.. Normally you do Troop shopping, but nothing against you doing Pack shopping.. DO so Before your son (or you) are totally turned off.. The others may not sound so good over the phone, but be much better, because the den you son would be in has an excellent DL, and/or they will love your help, and you can work on making the Den/Pack become better. Do you or your husband have a background in Scouting? Just wondering, as with most parents who don't know what they are getting themselves in for, they would have been turned off far sooner.. Probably at the "ghost" pack.. They also don't typically roll up their shirt sleeves and volunteer to help, it is more you have to slowly encouraged them to wade in.. Hopefully if you know how it is suppose to be like when run well, you can do the Pack shopping and find yourself a great Pack. Early Dec is recharter day.. Don't want to push you to hurry, just if you wait until after Recharter day to jump to a different Pack, you may transfer to a different Pack then when the registrar keys in the charter info (about a month or two after recharter day, you may land back into the Pack you left because your name was on their charter.) Just if you do jump after the recharter date, watch out for it so you can transfer back to the Pack you want to be with.. Or Do not recharter with the Pack you don't like to avoid complications while you decide on a different Pack.. Phones are great, but one CM may be a great salesman and sell you the Brooklin Bridge while the other is being truthful or don't do well blowing their own horn, and come off not looking so go.. Go.. See for yourself, then choose.

May be too late for fundraisers past, but for future, the committee might vote for a certain participation per scout in the fundraisers (either in time or $ amt), or that the parents either cough up a certain amount of cash, or pay for their sons own awards as they are earned.. It would at least put a stop to someone (or some den) not helping with the fundraisers but earning tons of costly awards. When my son was in cub scouts we had another den at the same level as our den. Seemed like the den leader there was similar. They were not there for Tigers, came in at Wolf or Bear.. We felt like the tortise compared to the hare, when next to her group, and our den parents asked if we wanted to try to compete, the unanimous answer was "No" our boys were having fun, and the boys got their ranks in due time. then suddenly "Poof" the whole den was no more.. Not even one boy was left to move into our remaining den. From what I remember there was some huge arguement or blow-up between the parents and they all quit the pack. Our boys plodded on to complete the AOL. The tortise won the race. Every single boy of the den then divided off to 3 different troops, but they all eventually made Eagle too. Your right, racing through the program does the boys no good..

I Don't blame her, my husband is Advancement Committee chair, and SM's & CC's put in alot of time, but hands down in our troop, the ACC puts in way more then the ASM's.. This may not be in all troops, so the ASM's do not have to get in a huff.. Just saying in some troops this is definately true..

So from you last post, it sounds like you are talking to the parents who are in her den (or were in her den before their kids dropped out.) in order to get the background info.. Unless the Parent who was an Eagle scout has scheduling conflict he sounds like a great person to get to step up, or at least to get information from as to how this DL is working things.. (I got from an earlier comment parents seem to be sitting in the back of the room with their mouths hung open that most don't know the program. The Eagle scout should (unless he came from an Eagle Mill Troop).. If all your background info is not from the Eagle Scout Dad, then sounds like the parents are aware of the situation. If you haven't done so already I would contact the parents of those that dropped to find out if it was due to the "all work - no play" Den that their boys dropped out.. Usually those that dropped out, know at least some of what is not working right in the den. Also they may consider returning if you do make changes and let them know about it, giving their feedback some credit as to the changes made.

Some of that has to do with "What is it about parenting, that flips your priorities around".. Part of it is the excitement of having something fun to do with your children that you both find common enjoyment in. Kids grow too fast not to savor every enjoyment you can with them.

Yep, you are in the out-crowd.. You got alot of great company though. I always thought the out-crowd had some of the better people anyways. Doing your tickets - Can't help you, since I have 2 thoughts. 1) With your tickets, did you choose anything that would help your Pack?.. If you did, then do it. If it was just some stuff that gave you something to do, but not that important to your Pack, then don't. 2) Do it and since they had the comment that your WB status was why you couldn't do things, see what they come up with next. Honestly, many people without WB help out in our district. I have never known any one turned down to help out due to not have silly little beads. Nor do I think they turn people down due to disliking them. Maybe in my area of training if they want to pass on negative attitudes or no one likes them so no one will respect them enough to pay attention to them.. (Luckily I have yet to deal with that.).. But, I don't know of other places a helping hand would be refused.

Oh yeah one other thing I was told, that was triggered reading another forum. Venturing Age limit is being brought down from 14 to 13.. Anyone hear this?

the cronies at district already have told me my woodbadge isn't worth the price of admission. So my entire reason for taking it is moot. What were you hoping to gain from WB? For me it was ways to communicate better with people. No one can tell me if it was worth the cost but me... Others may do it for the boys, then it would again be their own opinion if it made a difference, maybe the boys (if you chose to ask them)... You weren't looking into getting into the "good ol boys" league? You don't like them, they seem not to like you in turn.. You wouldn't want to hang with them anyways.

Yep.. I was looking at the G2SS which defines Family Camping, and Pack Overnighters seperate.. So I don't quit have it that Pack overnighters is Family camping.. But... I do see this one little nugget in the Pack Overnighters area.. "Pack Overnighters: These are pack-organized overnight events involving moren than one FAMILY from a single pack,... So I guess I will state my case that this is Family camping with this tiny little nugget.. Then go to the info provided on Family camping, for more indepth information.

Thanks, Yep that's why I came here with the things that didn't jive.. My BALOO syllabus is a hand-me-down dated 10 years back (probably first edition, as before that I was in cubs and they didn't allow us to do pack camping at all.) I guess this is one of those books that is now tangled up with the lawyers who are rewriting everything, so I can't get a newer version. I don't know where I read the Baloo needed renewing, I thought it was on something creditable, like myScouting.org, I know it was a factual list of what trainings needed to be renewed and the timeframe for the renewal. I know that one jumped out at me when I read it, because all others made sense, except for that one, so I am glad to know that it is only one time. That does make more sense. I agree that #2 is just plain silly. I would imagine it is someone guessing that if there membership lapses without renewal, the fact that BSA computer system is poor, they will loose all information and will need to start over. Then it just passed down the chain enough times, to go from "What will happen if..." to "This will happen if..." Does anyone have the wording of "Pack Camping is a ratio of 1:1", or "Pack Camping is Family camping" in something authoritative (if BALOO a new copy then my 10 years back one.) I would like to pass on this info to the District who did the training, and get them to start passing on valid info.. I am also now joining a Cub Pack who 5 people in the pack just got this training, and I would like to correct them about the information they got.

I went to BALOO training this Saturday. Some of the stuff I heard, I have my doubts about the facts on. Considering I am planning to use this knowledge to start BALOO training in our District. Sure would be nice if I knew the facts. 1) I was told that with Pack Camping the ration of scout to adult is 5:1.. I think I heard this for summer camp. But I know this forum always seems to indicate the parent is assumed to be on the camping trip with the boy.. I read in G2SS the following. Page 18.. Pack Overnighters.. In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.. OK.. BSA writting.. Clear as mud.. Ther is not 5:1 mentioned. But I wish they said "All" not most.. The all is the youth has a specific adult, but some could argue that adult is assigned to be in charge of 5 cubs.. Anyone have something with a clearer definition?? 2) This I never heard of except from a UC at the training. If you lapse in your Youth protections.. All your other training is elimintated and lost. You have to retake all training over again. "Ahhhh... I don't think so..." Still now I have heard this, I want others to confirm that this is not true. This just seems way too harsh, and unfair. You don't loose your IOLS training, because you let your YP lapse for a week or two. Even if you don't get on the charter right away, you still get to keep your membership ID, when you do renew, and that will have your training on it. I left scouting and did not renew my membership for about 6 months, yet I got my old membership ID given back to me, and all my training was still good. 3) On this they may be correct and I am wrong, but I thought I read it somewhere, yet it did not seem correct when I read it. Baloo only has to be taken once.. I thought I read somewhere that it needed to be retaken every two yrs or every three years. If anyone can clean up these discrepencies for me, I would appreciate it.

BasementDweller - Question for you.. Did you take WB in your own council, or go out of council? I just remember other comments by you that lead me to believe your council was a bunch of egotistical jerks.. (Pinewood derby they will not run, but when you offered they killed any attempt by you), comments about the way they hand out adult awards etc. That lead me to believe you already feel your council is not for the boys and is sort of corrupt, where money is not seeming to go into the camps, but into the execs pockets etc. Bearing this in mind, if you wanted to take Woodbadge, I would hope that you went to a different council, because if your woodbadge was run by the same jerks in your own council, I am not surprised you had no enjoyment. I would think you would not have been surprised by that either..

Ours is only run once a year. the last 3 years they have been full, before that they were not and our antelope were getting pretty extinct. During our woodbadge dinner every March there was usually only one or two antelope for the "Back to Gilwell" song. I doubt our council will ever run two, which is all well and good, it is a huge production to put one on. Never thought of us as a small council, as we are pretty much all of New Hampshire except for a town or two. (for some reason they thought a council being all of one state was a monopoly, so a town or two had to belong to a Massachusetts Council.) Maybe we are people would be considered small people wise, as our south is populated, but not our north. I know my director stunk, and it was the worst year possible to take it, but all the ones before or after him were fabulous, and they filled their courses based with alot of people who wanted to attend the course that "so & so" lead. I still had a good time based on the other staff members, and those in my patrol. Just the director who did not send out notice you were accepted into woodbadge and what to bring until the week before the course. Then in front of the participants laughed about loosing a few participants, but getting to keep their money anyway due to the no refund policy. I was one who canceled due to the poor organization, then when I found I would not get my money back, I went without notifing them I was coming causing them to scramble. They had someone come over to talk to me knowing I was starting off the course in a foul mood. But, I sincerly did not think it fair to pass my mood onto my patrol. Anyway you can bet anytime the director was around he could say or do nothing right by me. And his attitude grated on me, luckily the one you dealt with most was not the course director, but the SPL and I liked him. He was fabulous. He was course director the following year, and my course director was retired and not on staff after that.

As a cub master I think it would be great if your pack is doing pack camping. BALOO also does campfire program, and camping issues but this is more so, and everything you learn in it could be applied to a pack camping trip..

I for one can not wait for the two to be merge. It will make life so much easier. It was to be this fall but got backed up, hopefully this Spring we will have the merged course. Since in the North country we don't train again until Spring, that would mean I will not have to do the seprate courses again. OWLS or WeLot or whatever they want to call it is recommended, but not required of Webloes den leaders. IOLS is required of SM' or ASM's. They are practically the same course except OWLS has whittling chit & 3 outdoor activity pins and IOLS has toten chit and plant & animal Identification. But the rest of it cooking, camping, orienteering, knots & lashings, campfire program, interfaith worship... even backpacking & woodman tools (which most webloes don't get into) are the same.. I tell Webloes to take the IOLS unless they want to repeat the course in a year or two. For you, that is really up to how set you are with staying in cubscouts. If they are merged before you take the course, you really will have nothing to have to decide on. But with boy scouts never say never. Your son may find a great troop, and in a year or two the adult leaders that were in place may start leaving, causing the troop to have poor adult leadership, that doesn't understand boy-lead.. You may find yourself wading in just to make sure the program stays boy-lead and to ensure the other adult leaders let your son and the other boys spread their wings & fly. In which case IOLS will give you pretty much what you will get from the OWLS. Whittlin chit you can read up on. You just may need to depend on someone else for the outdoor activity pins. Which if you have someone knowledgeable in the field you may just do with or without OWLS training.

Yeah, when I said "I wasn't sure" I was thinking about the fact they don't want you in uniform for a political rally, or using it for a costume. So that makes sense. But then if you are out of uniform, and therefore not making a statement that you are in the Boy Scouts, I don't know why the BSA would still be against your unit doing something for the Salvation Army. At that point you look like the average joe on the street ringing bells.

Well again you are not soliciting for Boy Scouts, but for the Salvation Army, similar to why Beavah states soliciting for Eagle Projects is ok, because it is for the group you are doing the project for. So I do not know about the uniform. I would think that would be ok, because it is for a good cause. But, the solicitation for money in that instance would be fine.

Wish I could see the G2SS to see exactly how this is phrased. My G2ss got washed out on the last camping trip, and our Scout store has been out of them on my last 2 visits. I know for sure paintball & bungee jumping are O-U-T out.. But Then if the book has in bold From the Guide to Safe Scouting in BOLD print (that means it is a BSA rule) - "Overnight camping by Tiger, Wolf, and Bear Cub Scout dens as dens is not approved and certificates of liability insurance will not be provided by the Boy Scouts of America." It kindof sounds like unapproved so that too may fall under the if you do an unapproved activity with your unit and an accident happens, BSA insurance will not cover it. I would also think that with family camping, you can't have it both ways.. You can't do "family camping" to get around having no one BALOO Trained and do no tour permit. And if someone sues you, use this for your arguement then when the courts pounce on you for it truely being a Pack campout.. Turn and expect protection under the BSA insurance. But, then since camping is not an unapproved activity.. Who knows. Still to me it sure proves you were not mis-interpreting the rules, and knew you were not following them. So to my interpretation that would be an unapproved activity. Personally I would not risk if my interpretation was ok though very shady. I would try for a well meaning up-front interpretation to cover my butt. Still could be wrong with BSA wording being not so straight forward. But I would not risk attempting den camping, nor family camping.. After all BALOO is more then they offered us when my son was in Cub scouts. I am returning to the Pack for about a year, but I doubt this issue will come up. The first event I am invited to in this Pack is the BALOO training in which 6 adult leaders of the Pack besides me are getting trained.

Kindof is the current system - Since you already have units doing just that and that is acceptable, under the current system. If it was was promoted as this was the preferable way to set up your charter, but you could also form an allience?? You still have the same system, but with more "Friend of XXX"... Well then have other stated, you may not have a secure facility to meet at, may or may not be no different for those who have CO with totally hands-off approach that don't even offer a facility. But for those with a good working allience, they will be poorer for the lack of support. At least that's my opinion since we have a good allience with our CO.