moosetracker

Ok.. This is not a thread to get on and bash those councils that don't allow test out of IOLS.. This is more a question of finding solutions for arguements that a council has for not allowing the test out of IOLS.. I told the district training chairs and council training chair at the Council wide planning meeting I planned to run the test out of IOLS.. I did not get a definate "we won't you to do it".. But a definite how do you plan to do it? As I guess some troop wants to go out of council to a group that justs asks you questions and signs you off.. I told them this would be a definate testing out.. They must come with a backpack pitch a tent, demenstrate First aid, do cooking, fire building etc.. Reasons still against it. 1) They are not staying in the tent over night.. 2) There is no patrol method.. They could know the basics but not patrol method. 3) They may know older methods and not the newer ones. Like changes to Leave no trace.. 4) They want the people with the knowledge in their classes to teach those who don't have the knowledge.. OK.. All I got for this is 1) is if they can come in with a sign off that they camped one night with a troop, their sleeping with my IOLS participants will give them no extra expierience.. Sleeping in a tent once you walk into the tent is personal.. 2) I was thinking of setting a time of working with a troop to have learned the patrol method from them.. Be enrolled in a troop for 3 months or whatever.. But the more I think on it, can I work the patrol method in?? What are your ideas..?? 3) The test out should highlight any issues with them working with older training methods. 4) If they have the knowledge to teach the others in the class that just nagates issues 1, 2 & 3... So I just don't have a response, except add a few extras to your staff to work as troop guides.. So the IOLS say do one on one test out.. And I was thinking along these lines.. Until I am now forced to think of working in the patrol method.. Here are some of my thoughts. Like normal IOLS close course enrollment 1 week early and set everyone into patrols. 1)They need to come up with a patrol name, flag, cheer and figure out how they can show scout spirit to those trainers who they work with. Their patrols spirt is judged with the other patrols.. 2) On the personal checklist they have demonstrating raise,fold, display the American flag.. I guess I have never seen this done on a one-on-one, but in a group of at least 3 people.. Can I group this to a patrol method?.. (I don't see making this ceremony a judging competion) 3) Do a knot tieing relay where everyone must do the knots checked off, but there ar points for neatness, accuracy and speed for the entire group.. And then their patrol is judged to the other patrols.. 4) Doing an orienteering course that works the maps, compass etc.. They have to do the course alone, but the group as a whole is again judged against others. I was thinking of changing the backpack cooking to a patrol cook-off but the sheet states Menu planning.. backpack stove.. Clean up.. Could I have them demonstrate the backpack stove and discuss menu planning.. But work as a patrol on a dutch oven meal for a competition cook-off..? I know that with the boys merit badges we should not add or subtract.. But, to get this test out of IOLS accepted I know I am adding to the check-off list.. Is there something that I can not add to the Adult leader training requirements?? My district would be just so greatful to get this excepted, I don't think they will grip (too much).. I also think if I get the grudging approval I will have "visitors" to my first IOLS test-out to try to find fault.. So I will need to make this successful.. My DE is going to go to bat for me on this issue.. So I have him in my corner.. Please I would appreciate no Council bashing, just some helpful suggestions on what I can do to work around the arguements..

Hear! Hear! Beavah.. I love your words! I was coming back to ask if the COR (who seems to have the courage to make a stand against this) could call the MBC and see what he signed off on.. If the MB was handed to him with the parents signing off more then one or two quick requirements, he would not know that they were not legal MB for the Badge, or that the SM hadn't approved them for being the boys MBC.. They virtually have trick them into doing the final sign-off then are pushing it be accepted because some MBC they tricked into signing it signed it.. I also was thinking that the SM (although I don't think he is standing up to these parents).. Should check and/or assign who the MBC for the badge is before he signs the MB and if that MBC is not the signiture for ALL the requirements I would think that would be reason to deny the MB, because the boy did not use the MBC he was assigned to.. Also if any of the requirements are signed by the parents and they are not valid MBC for the badge, whether the SM has made a policy that the parents can not be the MBC of their own son, or if he hasn't been a good gatekeeper as to assigning the MBC in the past, if the parents are not registered MBC's for the MB then it is invalid and should be challenged regardless of who did the last requirement & signed the card as completed.. You can switch MBC mid-way, but they old & new MBC have to be valid registered MBC.. (Of course that would only delay the parents until they signed up as MBC for every MB their son has yet completed..) But it could be a way to back out of those that have to date been wrongfully signed-off on.. Then if the SM would start being a good gatekeeper, that would prevent future ones regardless of how many Merit badges the parents want to sign up for. If the COR is standing up to the parents, then the COR should insist the SM start doing his job and being a good gatekeeper to prevent this.. If your lucky the parents will take their little paper stars or First class or whatever rank they get to without earning it in your troop and go to another troop where they can start their tricks all over again until that troop wises up to their games. I would not even feel sorry they are not getting quick sign-off for the tenderfoot - 1st class, if their father is the ASM going on camping trips with them, and concentrating on running them through hoops simply for the sake of getting them signed off on it. (of course it sounds like you have several new cross-overs who are doing this, so the others are getting though easier then one.)

Well as I said before their is a reading MB for boyscouts.. Probably what will set you off worse based on your comments about the reading Belt loop is there is a scholar MB which is basically to get good grades in school, I think there was a report on why school is important to you and some such.. A scout that is already good in school can roll that off with no effort at all.. Still there it is.. I would talk to your Advancement chair & DE if you feel so strongly. I doubt they would back you but you may need it if parents go complaining. So see if they will or not before you make a public statement. I say just take a clothespin to the Pack meeting in case you need to put in on.. Award it as quietly as possible, or in a mound of other things the scout gets so that it is not announced the availability of it.. May not work as parents & boys will talk, but I think all of us have things in scouts we dislike, or things with our unit we dislike.. Few can state the Scout organization is picture perfect. But the good out weighs the bad so we from time to time put the clothespins on our nose and walk through..

Momof7 - This is not a group of parent you should advocate for.. They are trying to put your troop in Cub Scout mode.. In fact I would sit on the side of the committee that would make sure they do not come to power in positions that will make your troop turn for the worse.. You may have small issues.. You will have large issues if the place becomes a meritbadge mill. Your Life & Star son will be forced to treat other Life/star rank boys who don't know their basic scouting skills as if they were equals, rather then as if they are scouts who need to learn what they don't know.. Teaching new scouts scout craft is one thing.. Having scouts who don't know their basic skills (Who think they do because they were shown it in 5 min by mom & dad).. Will cause scouts with no knowledge in leadership position so they can lead the troop off the cliff or deep into the woods to get lost.. This will frustrate your sons..

Yeah, I also question those MBC's who register to teach 40-50 Merit Badges "Troop Only".. Even when not "Troop Only".. Unless this person is the do-all know-it-all NO ONE can be proficient enough to know all those subjects, you kind-of question what the scouts in that troop are getting out of those MB that they learn from this one person.. Plus the scouts loose the chance to go out and work with many new people.. I can see why districts or Councils do set a limit.

True Eagle92.. I was just going through that in my thread about CS belt loops & pins. These are not really advancement. But still it is sort of denying a CS a prize he expects at the end of the rainbow based on your personal like or dislike of the subject matter.

I would think it rather harsh to have a boy not be part of a MB that everyone else in the troop gets to do together just because his dad is the counselor. Unless the boys really are interested & pushing it, alot of the same troops that put restrictions on parents not be son's own MBC, do not use troop time to do "classroom" style merit badges.. If they do, most would make the exception because the progress of the scout under the parents guidence is being monitored by others in the troop.. I think it would be strange if a troop that does classroom style MB's would isolate one boy out..

Jeffrey thanks that link did help me get my mind around the differences of Webeloes Activity badges & the activity/sports belt loops & pins.. For instance: Artist is a WAB but Art is a Belt loop/pin Geologist is a WAB but Geology is a BL/pin Scientist is a WAB but Science is a BL/pin I was thinking some of the names inter-mixed so I couldn't tell the difference.. But to truth they don't.. Also it does seem to be the WAB's that are mostly showing up on the Rank Advancement sheets, and the sprinkling of others that kept growing my list out more & more are the Belt loops & pins that some units have chosen to include on their Advancement reports but don't need to be there.

Moose, Being a MB Counselor is explicitly permitted by ACP&P #33088, though I teach it's a best practice for SMs to hand assign someone other than Mom/Dad when the boy approaches for his card. Remember: Step one of the MB process is for the Scout to approach the SM with his interest and desire. The SM has the ability, nay, the duty to select the right MB Counselor for the youth. I am confused, because it sounds like you are correcting what I stated.? Except for detailing who makes the decision that a MBC can't be the boys parent, I don't see where I got it wrong when I stated, some also have rules that parents can not be their own sons Merit badge counsilor.. If the SM makes it a known fact he will not accept a boy's parent as his MBC, then the troop has a rule against parents being their own sons MBC.

I know of Cub Scout units that limit all the belt loops & pins that can be earned multiple times at every rank to paying for the belt loop/pin only once, after that it is not awarded, or the parent pays for it. But this is an across the board decision based on the monetary concerns. I have never heard of a parent argueing about it, because if they did & won, they would be forced to go out & sell more popcorn or other fundraisers for it. I don't think you can deny 1 or two awards, based on personal preference. Nor do I think you can decide to pay for awards A, B & C.. But force the parent to pay for the awards you disagree with. That would be like picking & choosing the merit badges the boys in your troop could earn.. For instance you could dislike reading, graphic Arts, and Computers, because you are sitting inside and not out and about in the outdoors.. You can not tell a boy he can not earn those merit badges, based on your dislike for them.. I do feel your pain though, the video game is a silly one..

BSA policy is vague intentionally.. Many people can argue & disagree on many things.. 80% of this forum is related to vague policy and the peoples interpretation of it. Having the boys sign off on scout - first class is more boy lead.. But nothing states this is the ONLY way, and many troops have the SM do it, or ASM's or Advancement chairs.. Other troops may have any boy over First class, or only the PL & SPL.. Or some other combination of boys.. this is all variation of troops and their interpretation of the BS policy. The not allowing parents to sign off is in many troops, some also have rules that parents can not be their own sons Merit badge counsilor.. As rdclements states, you either need to work with the policy the way it has been interpreted by your troop or find a different troop that works more the way you wish.. But, truely it should be your sons choice to stay or find a different troop. He may not have as much issue with this troops policies but be having fun in this troop the way it is, especially if advancement is not his #1 priority..

Welcome Platypus! We do enjoy the viewpoint of the young adults.. There are a few of your around, so as long as you don't mind being outnumbered by us old fogies.. We enjoy your company.

NO.. All help is appreciated in getting me to learn this. I am re-enlisting in our local pack for a year to help out and learn. I am excited about that. But until I go back this is all very hazy memory of yester years. Either those triangle activity pins were not popular when my son was a cub scout in his Pack or Den either, or were not around. I don't remember them at all, nor the C Letter they attach to.

I don't think I have seen the "C" that might be new since my day. I remember the 3 ribbon tassel on the sleeve that the pins went on, and I know they are still around since they were being displayed at the CS specifics course. So is it just the Webeloes that get to wear the 3 ribbon tassel? With my son, even if they were worn on the sleeve, they were too tiny to interest him. I am most definate that my paperwork only shows arrow points earned, and no one lists the "Electives" that go into earning those (thank goodness that would probably make the paperwork twice as thick & long to go through.. The arrow points I am just counting up how many silver and how many gold a boy has earned. Seems the units in our district go for a core 12 - 15 belt loops.. I went through 3 months of Advancement forms just using them.. So I was thinking these were part of Advancement, then a rare one cropped up, then another, then another.. Then I got a paperwork on all these odd ones.. That's when I put the breaks on what I was doing because then I knew I was recording not Advancements as the beltloops & such.. The core ones seem to be Artist, Aquanaut, fitness, citizen, forestry, outdoorsman, Sportsman and a few others I can't remember right now are like 95% of what the CS units record for the boy earning.. Like I said about 12-15.. Sportman got recorded on the advancement, but the baseball, basketball etc are the rare ones recorded.. If you need to earn several team & individual sports to earn Sportman, I guess our packs are sort of picking and choosing what they want to record to Council.. Some units being more detailed then others.. Like I said only one unit got so detailed as to put all the tiger beads down. OK I need to return to the code and revamp the way I am tracking my CS advancement.. Thanks for the ideas & suggestions.

What is the difference of CS Electives and the belt loops/pins? OK I was fuzzy on the belt loop/pin significance, but I guess not too.. I didn't think they were for advancement, just my son loved to have a belt heavy in the metal bling.. He was not so big on the pins, though I know it signified more work, they just didn't interest him as much at the belt loops.

I don't know if the large vs small would be the issue (especially if all 12 webeloes don't split to different troops, the small troop would grow with 12 new scouts.) Look for how the older boys work with the younger scouts. Is this normal or special for the visit. I know my son was so excited about how the older boys in one troop worked with him during the visit, he was not happy when he joined and was put into a younger boy patrol, and the older boys no longer paid attention to them. What events they have done in the past year.. Does one troops outings interest your son more then others. The first troop we joined was verying into hiking and my son is more aquatic & camping then hiking.. Their meeting place and how they plan their weekly meetings, does the place facilitate an active weekly program, and does the troop have it.. One place we went to met at a college, but it was in one of the classrooms and all the desks & chairs did not give them good moving room, they had a visitor giving a information on a merit badge to create interest in it, but I could see the room allowing them to do little else. Does either have a feeder Pack that they are expecting to cross-over to their troop. If your 12+ and someone elses 12+ join at the same time, can the troop train and work with that large a group, or will some get lost in the woodwork. I guess since you think both troops are good, you already have looked for and have been satisfied with the "boy-lead" aspect of each of the programs..

I am trying to organize the district advancement for my husband. He gets monthly the paperwork on every units advancement, and has been tasked to make it useful to find signs of troubled units.. So I have been at Boy Scout level long enough I have forgotten alot of Cub Scouts. I want to pull out of the CS advancement enough, so I know to pull awards like Summer time award & World Conservation.. Rank advancement is a definate track. I kind of just set up the Gold arrow points & silver arrow points as a count of what each boy recieved for the month rather then break it out to wolf arrow point #1, wolf arrow point #2.. it is just silver arrow point (count of 2) The belt loops & pins though have me kindof confused as to what I should look at. Like I think I want to track those items that are required for the Webelos advancement. But some of this stuff maybe could be lumped.. The way they are listed on advancement I am not even sure what is belt loop or pin. But things like bowling & marbles and stuff I kind of would prefer to lump as Beltloops/pins (count of xx).. Few units broke down Tiger beads etc.. But I just ignored that because only one or two units did it, so tracking it for the district to look for warning signs in a unit would not be accurate. But not sure what is Webeloes advancement, and what is normal belt loop/ pins... Also not sure if I should do a count of Sports Belt loops/pins and Academic Belt loops/pins. I figure I would ask those of you more currently involved in these awards how you would divide these up from meaningful advancement and more or less bling that makes the kids & parents happy. (The meaningful advancement I wish to track.. The bling I wish to lump & count..)

Oh I loved the "Princess Princess" or "suiter" one, if done right, the first time I saw it, it was! the second time the two scouts involved were a little more insecure and the hamming it up did not come off as so funny.. There was one I saw only once that I don't know if it was local or not. But it was someone sitting in a huge chair "Like Lilly Thomlin of "Laugh In".. I was a child when that was on the air, but that dates me so not sure if many people know what I am refering to. Anyway they just went through some common child story, not sure if it was Three little pigs or Goldy Locks, but something like that, and just the voice and the comments around it where hystarical.. I looked forward to it at the same camp next year, and the guy that did it was no longer there and they didn't do it. (I think he was the only one who they thought could pull it off.).. He was also one of the actors of the Princess, Princess when it was done so successfully. With some of these the actors definatly can make or break a skit.

I don't think I would have an issue with the similar skit with potatoes or any of the other ones mentioned.. Except for, as others mentioned a gym floor, even with plastic down, would not be the place for it. I know gyms where it is either socks or gym sneakers (no street shoes), a new gym has even had us wear only gym sneakers that have never been worn outdoors for it's first year. I would not throw food around on a schools gym floor. To truth I have never seen this "cool & creamy" skit.. The thing with this is simply the match of the phrase and the chosen food item. It takes what is good clean fun in all other cases into border line, and I would call this border line, because drawing the parallel image may or may not happen. To truth, I am one who most stuff goes over my head. Then my husband will clue me in on what he (and half the boys in the troop) were snickering about. Or their sneakering would make me look the situation over again looking for sexual overtones.. If we watched this skit, that would probably be what would happen here. It is just reading the skit, with the heads up to look for what is inappropriate, I picked up on it immediately.

SHOOT!! ScoutNut you are right, I somehow misread UC for COR... Yeah they are more supportive guidence, then crack the whip.. You will do things my way.. (Although you UC seems to be taking that approach.) I have never seen a UC take this stance personnally.. Any past UC I dealt with would be on the first bus out at the sign of trouble, and not return any phone calls or emails until the dust settled.. I could never see them being the ones to stir up the dust in the first place. I guess the current UC we have did work to organize the Pack that was going under due to parents not getting involved enough in the program.. He did get enough parents to take the needed positions to keep the pack afloat.. Any of my past UC would not have done even that. Due to my expirence with UC's I guess I don't know how much power they can wield, for you.. And how much a unit can lodge a complaint over them over stepping their bounds.. I do know if the COR is at all involved, the COR can trump him, and nail him to the wall for wielding changes they did not want in their unit. This will be very interesting. You must keep us posted.

I can see with your seeing.. The whipped cream on the body parts (even if arms & legs) can bring something to mind of a sexual nature, whereas the pie in the face may also be whip cream to a body part, but is just slap stick, not sexual.. Probably that type of visual would be lost to cubscout kids, but not high schoolers or their parents.. I would probably error on the side of prudish, and ask the unit to not use it. Just so that we did not have a parental complaint.. (I'm sure the HS boyscouts wouldn't lodge a complaint.) Though I would probably be over-reacting on taking a proactive stance, before the complaint was lodged, and get alot of men in the unit rolling their eyes at the prude..

Ahhh.. missing info.. You were getting a new COR!! And one with backbone! That is the biggest person to have in your ballpark, even though they don't run the meeting they can hire/fire and rearrange as needed to get the unit running the way they want it to.. Now if you work the plans jblake & others suggested, the adults can not point to your total change of approach as some sort of teenage hormonal thing.. They will know that this is how you intend to go forward with the troop, and they better get on board with you guys sooner rather then later.. I am very excited for you.

Ick... You sound like my son.. Normally I would be telling you to jump ship and find a working troop. But right now that isn't the thing to do.. Once your friend is done with being SPL, maybe it will be.. But, he has a serious responsibilty to this troop in his POR, and you should not desert him, but stay and help where you can.. My son is now 20 has his Eagle, and is staying on to help the troop.. Problem is after he got Eagle, the SM's that had the right vision have left, the most spectacular COR passed away, and our CC is very nice but too sweet.. The current SM is now in "cub scout" and "my son's come first", and can not delegate anything to the PLC or the ASM or the committee but is way to disorgainize to do everything himself (as if organization would allow anyone to do it all themselves), the current COR & CC have no backbone. Our old COR would have fired the SM a long time ago and made the best person for the job step up to plate, if he didn't work out he would have been fired too, until she had someone who was right for the job. Our troop would have never fallen into suce a dysfunctional unit on her watch. My son keeps sticking around in hopes to "fix" the troop.. But if you don't have the right people in place to help and facilitate your efforts, you don't get anywhere. My husband & I keep trying to talk him into moving to a different troop. My husband is still at the troop also, mainly for one other boy who has not left the troop, and my son. He is between leaving to a different unit, and runninf for the SM position when it comes up for vote (my son & husband at least got the committee to except a yearly vote for all adult troop positions). My son is thinking to run also, but he will not be 21 by then, and my husband would be temp SM until his 21st BD, but I don't know if someone so young would be considered. But, my husband has enough with being the Advancement Chair for the district, if he took it on, he would delegate to all the ASM's, SPL & PL's and shift most of the work to them. You & your friend sound very responsible and knowledgable.. Either this troop was not so dysfunctional when you started and you got to first class under good leadership, or your OA is very good and was able to give you the training your troop did not.. I would assume that being elected as Chapter Cheif, you are truely a responsible young man and that your point of view is not one-sided as to "we are great and they are not." Although some of your viewpoint may be slightly skewed. Fact is I will tell you what I tell my son, you need someone in the adult "authoritative" position, that has the right vision as to what a functioning troop is.. SM, COR, CC.. And have the courage and conviction to act on it and carry it through. If they can advocate for you boys, and will run interferance and give you your lead, you boys can do wonderful things. But if you have no one in your unit to do so.. It is just alot of disappointment and heartache for you.. Hopefully you see the wisdom to move to a better troop, rather then give up all together. I agree with what Stosh is telling you. Problem is, without at least one adult leader in an authoritave position who is making a stance with you. Or minus them, but with the backing of the majority of boys who make a stance and demand change, I don't know how you can make that change. As stated your friend with the POR of SPL can not make the jump to a different troop. But that may be your best solution when he is done.. But then I advocate for jumping troops quicker then other people.

I am surprised your area has so many "problem" scouts. On rare occasions we have heard of a few, but normally the dynamics of what Boy Scouts is all about will weed them out, if they will not embrace an attitude ajustment due to the program. It would be great for your troop to take these problem scouts on, if your troop had a working program to turn them around and make them responsible young adults.. It sounds like your troop does not, which unfortunatly is hurting your program. If you have so many "problem" scouts, your adult leader should be thankful for your friend, you and any other scouts that are trying to maintain a decent troop program in spite of the challenges. It is hard to get a clear picture of your situation with all the clashing problems, of new SM in cub scout mode, sour grapes of the boy who lost SPL election & his parents, older boys who refuse to follow SPL due to his age, and PL's and others in the troop being "problem" scouts. It's hard to get a solid mental image of all these inner workings and which ones are inter-related (like are the boy who lost, or the boys older then the SPL also the "problem" scouts..

Platypus - I like some of the others ideas better then mine, so I would suggest you go to the meeting your SM has organized (If it may be about what you think it is, hopefully, your SM invited your SPL friend).. It may or may not be the issue, if the SM does bring up the situation, hopefully he is supporting the SPL.. That is what his job is all about. You and your friend should let the SM lead. Have the SPL prepared with his "vision", he may not need to bring it up if the SM is doing a fine job in his support, or if the subject is about something unrelated. He may need to bring it up if the SM is not supporting him. Just organize your thoughts as a team, and be prepared to discuss it professionally and intelligently. If you don't need to bring it up, then don't.. And engage the SM in these plans in a seprate meeting.. And work on putting them into action. I had an idea others may have better ideas.. I was proved right.