moosetracker

What can an District Advancement chair do for two boys in his district that are petrified of water? The DAC is my husband and he, my son and my future daughter-in-law all have taken red cross Lifeguard & swimming instuctor courses. My Daughter-in-law works with swimming with handicap children. So my first advice to him was to ask to meet with these boys at a pool we know is Scout friendly and allows us free access to see what the issues are. But the troop SM states they have tried swimming lessons, but have panic attacks when they get their face wet. Both are in the same troop, I do not know if they are related and had some tramatic experience or why we have two in the same troop with the same issue. Anyway, if my husband can do no better with working with them, what would be his alternatives? I know the swimming merit badge is in a group of a choice of 3 to meet the requirement. I was told this was done for the very fact that some scouts do not swim. Seems weird they changed the MB to meet the problem, if there is no way to adjust the 2nd & 1st class requirements for the same issue. Just looking for ideas he can offer as suggestions, if he needs to. Our DE and director of Field Service kindof made it sound like it would be his call. But, is it his call? Does he have that option?

Some of it I see as issues, some not so. If you are getting scouts with palms, that is something. My son is the only one to get any palms in our troop, he did not make the 3rd one simply because he couldn't get any MBC for the last MB he wanted and he was looking at any of 3 MB's.. But he was the only.. So it seems that while some scouts may be being delayed unneccessarily, not all are. If a scout has 6 months in Position of Responsibility, that does not mean it needs to be the SAME POR, so if he has 2 months in one, 2 months in another, 2 months in another he has met his 6 months for Position of Responsibility, so if you do move, add up the different PORs while at their current rank, and inform their new troop of this. I am surprised that your committee meetings are so volitile that you have District Representation and nothing has been changed in the troop. I certainly would want to sort out and suggest changes for the unit and get the issues resolved rather then continually visit the unit each and every month as a bodyguard.

Why Cub Scouts Boy Scouts for our son.. Many reasons. 1) In my husbands family it is traditional. But, when I signed him up for CS in first grade, hubby was not happy because he feared if he didn't like CS it would be hard to get him to try BS. 2) Only child in a neighborhood with few children & those being older girls. He was so serious even by 1st grade, we wanted him to act like a kid with other kids. 3) Both husband & I grew up camping and so this activity fit our interests. 4) Don't know if it was leadership so much as a package of things with leadership included, but we did appreciate that Scouts had the principles and philosophy that we wanted our child to grow up learning, so it was an aide for us as parents to instill values into our child as he grew. 5) After Tigers (which he did not want to be in, because mom put him in it and he was already the rebel of parents wants even then) We had him go to Summer camp with the idea of sink or swim, if he came home from that and didn't want to be in it, then so be it.. Anyway after that first summer camp, son just loved scouting, and he continues to do it and love it at age 20.. If he had decided after first grade to continue to resist it, he would not be in it anymore. But, he never did mesh with kids his own age, he was always with people 10 years or older then his current age until 18 or 20, when the kids his age acted more mature. So it never improved getting him to "act like a kid" or "act his own age"..

I am unsure of testing outside of the summer camp test, as our troop was pretty much needed for camp, then for other troop water activity, we had our swimming merit badge counselor test them out. But I also know that at our troop we usually have 2 to 5 active boy scouts that have the BSA Lifeguard training at camp so that they can act as lifeguard at troop swimming activities. My son was BSA & Red cross trained. Therefore ask around at some neighboring troops if they have BSA Trained Lifeguards, then asked if one of them could do the test for you. The normal Boy Scout feel it's an honor to help in these type of activities. They take this training and then are unable to use it at summer camp (unless on staff).. Other activities have Lifeguards also. So their skills are used, but rarely.. They love a chance to utilize these skills they have worked hard to get.

Mike - I think Eagle was being a little tongue-in-cheek, with both suggestions, Although I have to laugh at 26. It wasn't the main reason we choose the troop we did, but we were happy that (the cub most likely to go to jail) was in the other troop. Years later we went to his ECOH, I did not find out until later he had a special day pass from prison to go to his own ECOH

Where did you see that?? I don't see where I indicated that..Any way, if I did.. It would be because, I am looking at holding 2 courses this Spring. That would be 2 days (if they were both Saturday). Then one course is being held on weeknights for people who work weekends and can not make a Saturday. I am anticipating that may take 2 nights if I start at 7pm, I don't think I could do it in 3 hours, and would not want to run past 10pm.. So if I indicated 3 days it is because I am looking a 3 days. 1 day for a Saturday program 2 nights for a seprate course run an weekday evenings. I am "hoping" the test out will be no more then 4 to 5 hours. But I have nothing to compare it to so that's a guess.

OK Kudu... If we have the land for it I will do the 300 ft.. But.. Test out is not going to be something like full blown IOLS, with a year long planning to it.. The location will be out side a units meeting place. If I have one or two patrols, I will be abel to do it. I am guessing my first run of this may be with a very large turn out, simply due to the demand for it, and no one in our council doing it.. Also remember I am not teaching, I am seeing what they KNOW.. So the question is, if we don't have the space to push them out 300ft, who will say something to ME??? You will be happy with the location for my IOLS campsite though.. The IOLS patrol was 1 mile all alone on a ski slope.. The rest of the district camporee troops were pressed in like sardines some place else.. So they got way more then their 300 feet... So there.. But seriously I tried a year in advance for our council camp with a choice of about 6 weekend dates. They were booked to the hilt all 6 weekends the whole month of Sept through Oct 15th , and could not give me anything, let alone 3 or 4 different sites to spread patrols out on. I ended up at with a campsite at a fish & game place for next Fall, and have no idea if it is one small campsite or I would have the land for it. When you are looking for lodgings for FREE, beggers really can't be choosers.. Question about the Patrols hiking or camping on their own. How do you get the tour Permit? We have done patrol outings, but still alway had the adult leadership with them. The tour Permit seems to require it. Basement, I have a pdf I can send you with the test-out version, if that's what you are looking for. But the private message will not let me send attachments.. If that's what you want PM me with your email, and I can send you the pdf file. (Unless there is some other way I can post it, that I don't know about.)

If it was 1 night it would equal what doing the "butt check" version of the course offered. But the only reason I am adding it in the first place is because it is one of the reasons the other Training Chairs & my district can complain about why the ITOLS is not acceptable, they have a tent over nighter & the ITOLS does not. If I need to add something so that it is comparable to the IOLS.. Then I don't need to up the stakes, just make it comparable to.. I don't think pitching tents and cooking together demonstrates the PM at the level that a SM should understand it. Again the patrol method is not by design in the ITOLS but it is one of the complaints as to why the ITOLS is not a valid equal to the IOLS.. Therefore if I have to add it in to make people happy, I don't need to have them demonstrate any more then how it is taught in an IOLS course.. So how do they teach you PM in IOLS? They have you form a patrol and cook together & put together a skit for the campfire program etc.. So how will you need to demonstrate you are able to work in a patrol? Group together pitch your tent as a patrol unit (I doubt I will have enough space for the 300ft, so it will be patrols in squishy campsite.. and do something as a Patrol, and give some patrol spirit.. It may not be what is full blown Patrol Method, but it will emulate what is shown to you in the training courses.. To add these pieces into the course for me is trying to make compromises to get it approved in the Council.. Not to add it in because I want to make the ITOLS longer & harder or more complicated.. Therefore equal to what is in the current IOLS course is what I am striving for.

perd. You must have missed this comment by the OP. despite my repeated efforts and offers to help him out We have a SM like that.. Not good as a one man show, but everyone who has offered to help, can not help him either, he doesn't know how to delegate or trust in anyone. Also was geared toward his kids, but I think that calmed down once he got them past first class. Although he does prefer them to be the SPL and may do things at election time to give them an edge for the postition.

Why do you say "My committee is planning on setting up".. Except for the addition of something with patrol method attached to it.. This test checklist has been created by National. So if you dislike the test-out, your complaint is with National.. As far as "my committee" I only have a committee from our council which comprises the council Training Chair and all the other district training chairs who are not for the test out.. My gut feeling is that I can compromise and add things like a sign-off of 1 or 2 nights that participant slept in a tent, and something to do with the patrol method.. I will get new objections.. They just don't want the test-out.. You want to train your own people.. But are against the "test-out" therefore, you must be in favor of them going to the "butt credit" course.. Because those will be your two options to get them through the required course, that will still be required after they go through your course. It is weird because on other threads you were very excited about the test-out.. What do you think the test-out was?? People just asking you if you know how to do A,B,C and you just answering "Yes".. I am just taking the checklist from National and National's rule that it must be "demonstrated" plus adding Patrol method to that checklist and trying to figure out how to organize the course so that it is doable & successful.. I agree. I will need more people for this course then the tradional IOLS, at least until it goes down to a trickle of a few participants each year who can do the "test-out" and want to.. I am counting on the fact that my district is excited about it, and WANT this course, and are willing to help me get it up and running by offering to be testers so that their buddy in their troop can get through it. I will have my husband & son go through the dry run.. They are good at scouting but not backwoodsmen.. If they can't do it, then it will be too hard.. But I don't see them having a issue with it.. I have already stated those who go in green to an IOLS, will not come out from IOLS with the ability to do the test out.. I don't think it is totally a butt course.. They are not just lectured, they do work with the map & compass and get instruction on it, they do get practice with tieing knots, they do get to do camp cooking.. I think my instructors are good.. But it is the amount of info you need to get through and the tight time.. You just throw stuff at them non-stop, and overwhelm them so all they can do is remember a small amount of what was thrown at them. So "Yes" to test-out you need to know better then someone totally green who took IOLS.. But you should not need to know much more than a first class scout that's got good solid training through the ranks, and is confident in his knowledge.. I expect no eagle scout who takes the test-out at 18 or 19 to fail this test-out course.. An Eagle scout who has been away from troop activity for 10 or more years, may.. If we expect this level of skill of our First class scouts why is this an unreasonable level to expect from people who say they know their scoutcraft enough that they don't need the course and wish to test out?? If they are not confident in their skills, then they should take the IOLS course. Once we only have a trickle of people each year able to "test-out" we will not need so many to be on staff..

Really One or two nights should work. Many people talk about IOLS as 2 weekends. By the book it is 2 1/4 days Friday night thru sunday or some do the Friday night part a week or two early then only have one tent night between sat/sun.. When Required training hits, they will only have one year from when the register to train (unless they register for a committee position for a year or two and still go on outings.) Therefore asking them for 10 camping nights over a 2 year period would make the test-out basically impossible to accomplish, they only would have 1 year to do 10 camping nights.. Possibly some paper or verbal tests may work, I guess I may be hooked on the word "demonstrate" a little too much.. After this year, you won't have very many experienced people taking IOLS, it'll all be newbies. Same with the test-out, we will have a large group who want test-out up to when they are forced to get passed in the IOLS course. Then there will be a trickle of people who were maybe registered as committee members, but had been in the troop long enough to learn it, those whose personal intrest have them naturally trained. Or those that just moved from Eagle scout into Adult leadership. The big thing with Training groups accepting and using the test-out option fairly to get volunteers through is the fact you are showing volunteers you are working with them and for them to help them get through the required training. If you just play a power trip of "you must come to my class or else you don't know squat, because I know far more then you".. type of game with eagle scouts and scoutmaster of 5 to 20+ years, you set up an "us" vs "them" and you don't have a working relationship. Now try asking them to help staff your trainings.. You will get little help from them..

Well, I never got to take the old Woodbadge, but I know that IOLS replaced Scouting Fundamentals, and my husband at that time took Scouting Fundamentals. He took the last course. The next year when I took it, it had changed to IOLS.. I know SM fundamentals was a much better course, when we compared notes, I thought I was cheated. Therefore I don't understand why you think IOLS is what replaced the original Woodbadge program.. To me it is a watered down replacement for Scouting Fundamentals, which was what the course run with the original Woodbadge program.. So both these courses took a hit to what they taught in Scoutcraft. In my opinion IOLS rushes though the basic skills too fast for people who need to learn the skills.. They have time to get a glimpse of what they need to learn from others in their troops where they will have the luxury of time to truely learn it. Probably the reason I don't have the viewpoint that eagle scouts & Adults who can DO a test-out for the basic skills are still in need of listening to our trainers go through their course.. If they feel they can test-out then they are more knowledgable then those who are totally green after having a course in IOLS, because these people, after the course, may know a sprinkling of this & that, but I do not belive they learned everything so well, they could do the test-out, directly after coming out of the course. Maybe if we still ran Scouting Fundamentals, I would think the course was worth taking whether you knew the basics or not..

Why did I know that Kudu would think the idea of what is considered by National as having the patrol method incorporated in the training is lame??.. Sorry Kudu.. I don't think I can alter the checkoff list for the test out from National That much! Sounds like a fun "Beyound the Basics" course for an elective supplemental training..

So what is the bit about : In the meantime, the Cradle of Liberty Council would limit its operations to those the city believes do not discriminate. Harrington said that meant no "traditional" scouting programs would be run out of the building and that most employees would vacate their offices until the scouts became the legal owners. The newspaper adds they have another council office that they will be moved to for awhile. Sounds like they need to not use the building until they buy it if they are going to continue to follow the BSA rules that discriminate. S

Well, they do give you a test "check-off" list.. Some is hard to mis-interpret.. Some can be mis-interpreted, and abused by any district trainers who really don't want to use the test-out option, and want to discourage it. Also by well-meaning trainers who just are very, very strict on their interpretation of how to test.. It could go the otherway also with trainers who pass you because you pointed to a tree and said "tree" in order to pass out of plant identification.. It would be hard to get a handle on the interpretation, same as it is hard to unify all troops to be standardized in how the move scouts through Tenderfoot-first class.. Take something on the test-out checklist for Clove hitch or Bowline.. This should be hard for anyone to make easier or harder to accomplish, either you know it or you don't. But take some others on the checklist.. Ax_methods, map reading, Orienteering.. You could basically make these very easy or very hard based on if you feel the person should know the info as any first Class Scout.. (ie basic training.. meaning getting the basics of the subject matter..) Or if you feel in order to test out you had better know To the level of a professional from that field.. (which I believe you are expecting something far more then your basics from these people).. But even if a trainer takes the meaning of basic to heart, and trains for the knowledge you expect from a First Class Scout.. Each unit has a different level of expectation as to what that level should be, so still you will get different interpretations. So yes, I agree this will be a major challenge for the test-out. Unless some of my nay-sayer people from outside my district come to the training day, and wish to be one of the testers, I would figure I will have only people who wish the test-out option to be successful as my trainers. Still there will be a need to have referees help settle disputes, I am sure, just due to different interpretations of what basic means..

I am surprised that since the Council won, they are allowing themselves to be evicted for the time it takes to buy the building. What happens if they don't come up with the funds? Now they are evicted..

Could a first class scout pass the test they give you?? If not then you are not being given a fair test. If first class scout could pass, and most adult scouters could not, then your adults need training.. But, you do bring up a valid point, that of the differences in troops from allowing scouts to pass requirements because they watched someone on time do it, to those that refuse to pass a scout unless he has the backwoodsman skill of Daniel Boone.. It means making sure my testers understand they are testing people to be knowledgable at a First class level not the level of the Instructor for the IOLS course, and that the pass/fail is that they know the subject matter well, not that every word uttered was 100% correct (like if your son got his boxwood identification messed up, and this is one sentence uttered out of a 5 minute discussion on plants & animals, and even if he tripped up in 1 or 2 other places, but he is 85 - 90% accurate with what he says, this should be a pass with verbal correction where needed... Also it may be a good idea to put together at least one group of referees made up of 3 people all from different units to be called in and vote on a disagreement between trainer & participant over a pass/fail on a subject matter.

First off our council does not required Woodbadger "only" to be on our staff, I say they are good enough to be the tester, then that is that.. My only requirement will be that to be a tester, they have completed the IOLS test themselves. I first was thinking that I would have the participants move from station to station. The rope station, the map/compass station etc.. But then I thought of them with backpacks and packing and unpacking it at each station for whatever supplies they need etc. So the time for that caused me to ditch the idea. I then thought about assigning one tester to one participant (this was before the need to make some things patrol oriented).. And the thought that many who test scouts out of tenderfoot - 1st class should have the skills for all, but then most testers would be more comfortable testing what they are comfortable with, not all.. (Like don't have me test anyone for knots & lashing..) So right now my idea is to have the participants park it.. They pitch their tent, and do most stuff at this site.. For Flags & ax yard they can leave their site to go to where it is located.. Then having the testers doing the moving because they are not lugging equipment with them. I fail to see why you think adding the Patrol method is a "HUGE increase".. How much time does it take to do a scout cheer or wave a Patrol flag?? If you need to tie knots then what difference does it make that you do it in a game setting or not? The checklist for sign-off is set by National.. The fact they need to demonstrate is by National.. This is a "show competence that is suitable knowledge that you would expect of any first class scout.. I would see plant identification being something more of a choice of the participants what plants they wish to identify, as the scout requirement allow the scout the choice of which plants they wish to identify, rather then making an impossible test that you would need to be in the forestry industry to pass.. It would be more like choose 2 - 3 plants Identify them.. Of course they will be limited by the vegetation that is close by.. Now because the choice is theirs I would need the tester to be the forester that knows everything in order to know if they are correct or not.

Very Nice! What training was this in? Was this in like a Scouting University 1 hour class, or some other scouting course that did alot of different things? Or something totally unrelated to scouting?

Sure!! then just add an adult patrol or two and test them out at the same camporee as they go throught the same stations..

OH No! Basement! the demonstrating is not the Trainer demonstrating to the participants. It is the Participant demonstrating to the trainer that he knows his stuff. So it is you need to know your stuff and demonstrate you know your stuff to the trainer and he will use that as your test.. I am just trying to work into this demonstration of the participant that he will also demonstrate that he knows how to use the patrol method. At least for me 50% pass will not work except that you need to take either the whole full course, or try again for the whole test-out course when it is re-run.. That is because although we have a course outline, it gets shifted around. A trainer is done earlier then expected move the other one in faster, a trainer runs later then expected, it throughs the course off.. A trainer does not show up when they are due to start, move the one after them in now, and the trainer can take the timeslot of the other person when they show up.. I can not guarentee that the part of a course will run at 3pm on the dot.. Same with a test-out that is run for multiple people on a single day.. You go to station A,B,C the other guy starts at B,C,A and the last goes to C,A,B.. Someone jumping in and out of the mix would throw the whole course off.. Also Although the Scout Specifics states the test out could be done for "parts" that you know, indicating that you might be able to test out of half.. The newest statement for the course put out in October, states.. demonstrate all of the skills for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class . So it has been changed to state you need to test out of it all.. Or Redo..

Second Class - Requirement 9a Participate in a school, community, or troop program on the dangers of using drugs, alcohol, and tobacco, and other practices that could be harmful to your health. Discuss your participation in the program with your family, and explain the dangers of substance addictions.. I had to go read it, because when my son went though it, I think he just missed the older boys of the troop running a program for the younger boys.. I just happen to see a flyer in a store window that was about drug awareness, took him to that and he brought back proof and was signed off.. Both were one night courses.. Since then I know scouts have stated they had to be enrolled in a 6th month D.A.R.E. program for the sign-off, so I wanted to see if the requirement had changed.. I don't think it did.. It still could be a one night program the participated in. Therefore your troop could organize their own drug awareness program.. I would be best if they did not just wing it though, but maybe got some information from talking to people they know that have some knowledge, if anyone knows a Dr, nurse, even teachers have some knowledge.. Especially if you talk to a teacher who does the health course at the high school level.. Maybe you could even get them to come into the troop run program to speak.

Yeah, but unless I can find ways to prove the patrol method is included into IOLS (as in it is being demonstrated and tested also), the council may use this arguement to not let me do IOLS test-out.. It's as simple as that.. As stated, the way you are thinking was my original thoughts, and my original plan.. But, I need to offer reasons why, the test out will not lose the aspects they are finding fault with..

Eagle - we crossed post, I missed your first one.. Originally I thought I would do a set at RT.. Because I want to do one on weeknights (for people who work on weekends, or have other commitments where weekends are hard..) Then one on a saturday... I got chewed out by our District Commissioner when I put On-line training & Youth Protection on a RT night.. Those are simple little courses.. I am not to do my training at RT I guess.. I am hurting the numbers attending the breakout sessions. He did calm down & was gracious after he found out no one thought that it would effect the breakout pattern.. So that put an end to my thinking to do the weeknight course at RT, because that will probably bring in large amounts of people for the first few sessions, (both participants & Trainers to do the testing out) and their are bound to be some kinks needing work.. So I am sure that would upset him alot, because at least the first session may be like a tornado in a china shop. Kudu ears should be ringing! I am sure the way we do patrol methods in our training courses are propably too watered down & simplest to get his support.. But at least no one said we can't do the test out because it doesn't encorporate the EDGE program, or that we needed to build that into the test out & make sure the participants use it while testing out.. (Probably that change will be in the new edition of IOLS due out in 2011)..

It might be called "Test out" but the wording is clearly that the test is that you must demonstate.. It is not a paper test, it is a hands on demonstration test.. Like if you were taking a test for welding, they may test knowledge on paper, but they also have test for you to demonstrate you welding skills.. As a restated reminder, if you feel you have all the skills required in Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills it may not be necessary to take the course. Anyone who feels they can demonstrate all of the skills for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class should contact their District Training Chair and schedule a one-on-one session with a member of the training team. or the statement here: Adult leaders who already know some of the skills may pass that section of the course by demonstrating their abilities to an instructor. It is definately demonstrating you knots, map & compass skill etc.. Not just being asked if you know them and saying yes.. Or having a paper asking you questions like "How would you fold the American flag?".. I am set on having it one day, but originally planning a one-on-one or rather that everyone finds a patch of grass and set camp, then having the trainers for differnt skill visit your station for your demo, Flag & Ax yard, you would have to leave your campsite to go to where the flagpole or ax yard were set up.. Now I am trying to find ways to incorporate in the patrol method.. Might be silly, but they do it for other training.. Baloo we broke into patrols, SM Specifics you broke into patrols.. So it is adding to the demonstration test-out part, the fact you need to demonstrate your knowledge of how the patrol method works.. People like Kudu.. may get upset with my council finding reasons why the test-out option is no good, but at least in our neck of the woods the patrol method is alive & kicking, in that our training groups have not kicked it to the curbstone..