moosetracker

Well I'm out of the loop of the troop. I took my crayons and went quietly home when I saw the new leadership and roughly six month of their effect on what use to be a well run troop. I now play with the District Training, I have just signed up for a Pack (not associated with this CO), I want to relearn the cub scouting process, from a good strong unit. But, I might suggest my husband poise the question to the CC, COR & SM.. Beavah - all I can say about my son getting the car insurance from people, is he has tried & tried, and he would if he could.. But with a SM telling everyone it is unnecessary, and refusing to give his own info, he gets no place fast. If he ever does get the info, he can permenantly plug it all into the on-line tour permit and check them all when making out a new one. That is as good as the old paper form in that regards. I would probably not care so much if they treated the TP as a worthless piece of crap, so told him to falsify it. But, they have him believing it is a very important legal form needed for insurance and then tell him to falsify it. Which is what causes him to feel like a criminal every time he is forced to falsify it..

That's the thing the COR is at all the committee meeting, and has been included in the emails where my son has complained about the whole process. Our Old COR would have had the other volunteers hand the info over to my son and enforced as accurate as possible Tour Permits. Our new COR, still abides by the tough rule of our old COR about Tour permit on everything. But, when son complains he gets told nothing wrong with falsify the documents as long as they are in so the insurance is covered.. Don't hassle the SM.. The last time he made a stand he tried to rattle their cages about their fear of lack of insurance by stateing no one whos car is not listed on the tour permit, should not be driving kids other then their own since if they got into an accident the they were not listed on the tour permit, so the insurance wouldn't cover them.. There were not enough seat belts in the 2 cars, and they really don't want my son driving anyone until 21.. COR & CC just said list their two cars, and say everyone else was driving with their parents (even though not true.).. Also that he did not see where the computerized version let him split for some going in their two cars & some going in parents cars.. It was not as flexable as old paper forms.. (I did not check, so not sure if what he said is true or not.) They insisted he just write in into a comment line or something. I use to do some of the Tour permits under the old COR.. I had all the car insurance for anyone who drove the kids the majority of the time. Like Beavah and other stated I put them all down, even if their were more cars then scouts.. I forget how we did it, but we somehow made a copy of the TP with all the cars listed on the back page, so I didn't manually fill it out each time. I knew 2 weeks in advance who the leaders were (different SM).. and I was pretty proud of my guestimate of scouts based on the popularity of the event, and indications throught the pre-planning.. My son has none of that.. We have asked him to step down from Outdoor coordinator position since he gets no support.. He is stubborn, and doesn't want to give up the job. I dislike them teaching someone so young to falsify documents because they are too lazy to do it correctly (especially with them telling him it is something equal to or as important as insurance documents.) Great way to teach our youth.. Huh??

His beef is really filing a faulty Tour Permit.. .. Just having his and his fathers cars to put on the tour permit as drivers when neither are going.. (No one else will give him the info since the SM sees it as unneccessary.) .. Stating parents are driving their own children to an event when that is not true.. .. Listing his father or him on the tour permit so they state someone with Hazardous weather is on the trip when neither are going.. (Since no one else will get trained)(One of them tries to be there, as they feel obligated, but life outside of scouts does happen.) .. Guessing at who the leaders of the trip will be when he doesn't know. .. Putting the tour permit in the night before the event in hopes some of the unknown will be filled in by then, but sometimes Leaders are still unknown. They don't care that the info is not accurate. They don't care that no one has planned anything for the trip until the night before the trip. All they care about is putting something in so that they are covered by insurance. Makes him a) want to do as few tour permits as possible because it makes him feel like a criminal (and considering that he is only 20 years old this is a heck of a position to put him in, and a heck of a thing to be insisting that he do.).. Therefore he would prefer at least not doing the in-town trips. Tour Permits are his most hated thing of the job, due to the uncooperative attitude by everyone to make it easier on him. Why the COR, CC & SM all think filing a Tour Permit full of lies will ensure the insurance, while filing no Tour Permit will risk their insurance is logic I can not at all figure out. As stated I don't know what the trainers did say as I was monitoring between cub specifics & Scout Specifics, that day. But, I do know that Paperwork is in SM Specifics & Baloo (not sure about CS Specifics.. SM Specifics reads like a book not a syllabus. Impossible to memorize & would take twice as long as recommended time to read, But you can at least make sure things are not brought up that are not in the syllabus.. Baloo & CS Specifics & IOLS are more like syllabus's.. But syllabus's give you guidelines and expect you to fill in, They wouldn't give the times suggestions they do if they didn't expect you to fill in. Both would take about 1/4 the time listed if you just read them, and really leave the participant feeling he didn't get anything worthwhile.. Luckily I don't do the training, I just set things up and depend on my trainers, Over time I hope to learn from them so that I can help out.

Well it does eat at me for two reason.. 1) Is my son would have to do the proving to make the arguement to our troop.. 2) As District Training Chair, I would like my trainers to state fact, not fiction.. If I can work fact out of fiction. I was not present at the paperwork part of SM specifics this Fall, so I am unsure what they stated or did not state. I would be very happy had I come up with this Notebook that many councils live by with this whole piece missing the sentence about the insurance.. It would have been in my mind an open & shut case.. But, with it included I don't feel comfortable going into a training session and stating "Your BSA has posted that Insurance is tied to the Tour Permit.. But I say they are lieing to you based on a conversation I have had on a forum with a furry flat-tailed big tooth critter".. If it is a false statement, seems like us little pe-ons are not the ones spreading the falsehoods to give it teeth.. Rather, our Councils and National have documentated this falsehood in order to put teeth into the tour permit.. Now how much can I get my DE or anyone else in my council to help me debunk the myth, if they are the ones wanting it in place? True Home Insurance won't pay if they find you burned down your own house.. But they also don't pay for flood, acts of God.. I question the car insurance commercials that state other insurances wont pay if the xmas tree falls off the roof of your car & causes damage, or you watch the silly jogger instead of the road and have an accident. But I do know there may be trouble with your car insurance if you let someone borrow your car and they get into an accident.. A young college student had this happen.. His insurance didn't pay, her insurance didn't pay, nor the the "friend" do the right thing and personnal pay for the damages.. Just left her with a car that was totalled.. Also I remember my mom falling in my house, her insurance thought it should be my home insurance, so refuesed & sent the medical claim to me, but my mom was using my home as permenant residence at the time, so we proved that and kicked it back to them.. My feeling is Insurance companies try to find reasons not to pay. I could see them pointing to the lack of proof that this was a scouting event and using it to get the wiggle room to get out of paying. If you state your troop meets Monday night at Church A located in at address xyz.. You have written proof of the scouting activity at that location at that time. The fact my council doesn't force in-town events may prove what you say, but that is the whole reason our CO doesn't trust that, and wants to ensure we have insurance coverage by forcing us to do the Tour Permit in-town & out. Well I will see what my DE will do for me in the spirit of offering correct information to those in our district.. But, although you make logical sense Beavah.. I just would feel wrong to change the information about tour permits to people taking a course, based on your statement that the BSA is writting a bunch of incorrect crap.. Until then I just can't risk that I am telling them something that could put them at risk one day. Better safe then sorry especially when you are gambling with other peoples risk.

How come you guys can earn things like Polar bear patches in cub scouts while our Council limits us to no camp between the months of Nov - (i think) March or April.. Figured this was not National since in some states these are your better weather months where it is not unbearably hot.. But I doubt a Polar Bear Patch is for a council in Florida or California.. But one up north here.. Don't know how many packs here would be willing to camp in below zero weather, due to the ages of the cubs (no meat on their bones).. You though are talking about 32 degrees where you are currently.. It is way colder here this time of year.. So maybe it is a local thing & our cold weather camping is if the packs camp in Sep, Oct.. or April.. But it is outlawed due to below freezing Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb.....

In order not to hijack the Patrol outing Thread, which is interesting in itself. I needed to continue the discussion on the Tour Permit and if it is or is not needed for insurance.. Up front the arguments Beavah and others made do make sense, but in order for my son to argue it at the committee meeting, he needed proof.. If not proof of an official statement that a tour permit is not need for insurance, an official statement of what the purpose of the tour permit is for that states what Beavah & others said but minus any mention of insurance.. My internet search pulled up may council referring to something called the Risk Management Notebook.. Unfortunately the text in that promotes the so called myth that the tour permit is tied to you being able to make a claim using the BSA insurance.. Although I could find reference to it and virtually the same information at numerous councils. I was unable to find the official Risk Management Notebook.. So the question is, How official is this? If official, why would the words in it not mean what they seem to state to me.. You need the tour permit to be insured through the BSA? And does anyone know how I can find the Risk Management Notebook (not just an excerpt from it) on the internet (start of quote from Risk Management Notebook : Section 28) Why file a tour permit? The single highest number of injuries and fatalities in the United States and Scouting are caused by motor vehicle accidents. A tour permit that has been filed with and approved by the local Scout Council prior to the activity registers the activity as an official Scouting activity. BSA's insurance coverage only applies to official Scouting activities. Reinforces driver requirements and insurance requirements and encourages routine maintenance checks on vehicles prior to the trip. What is the purpose of tour permits? Provide the Scout executive with information regarding unit outings and trips - i.e. - a tour permit helps you know "what is going on". Reinforces leader requirements, especially in regards to Youth Protection, transportation, and aquatic activities. Make sure current forms are used. Can provide information necessary to locate a pack, troop or post if an emergency arises and lets the council know point of contact when an emergency situation develops. In summary tour permits re-enforce planning, safety, and two-deep leadership. (This ends the quote from the Risk Management Notebook)

Yep, that part of the reason so many troops are adult lead. Part is they don't believe you can do it. And part is they don't want to see you fail. Therefore they run things for you and avoid either problems. It is much easier to be in charge then to empower others. But, in order to empower others, you have to cut the apron strings. You have to do similar so that the troop is not totally SPL led. The responding to their questions with questions is a successful way. Including them on the planning and allowing them to help formulate it and thus buy into the changes and be as excited as you to get to the goal is another.. Also plan on them having successes as well as failures.. Compliment and be excited about their successes and comment on them so they do not over look it, even if it is small.. Positive reinforcement for successes while not making them feel bad for failure but just discussing how it can be improved next time.. This will slowly build their confidence and skills at leadership.

He knows where they are going, but not who the leaders for the trip will be until Thursday night. Yeah he did make a big stink with this last go round. Using the insurance angle, everyone that my troop thinks is the reason behind it, he was trying to pressure them into the fact that only those that are on the tour permit should be allowed to drive the scouts for the accuracy of the insurance, and that means they don't have enough rides because the only car he has is his and his fathers. Everyone else either never gave him their info or has since changed cars and never updated their data.. He has gone to committee meetings, sent out emails, and has asked in the meetings. The problem is that the person who refuses to give a health form or car info is the SM.. Just out right refuses.. Everyone else follows his lead. If he doesn't have to, then they don't either. The SM should be setting the example of following rules. Instead he just makes it impossible for my son to do his job. I believe also the last event the SM was out the week before the event, so my husband and son got the confirmation of Leaders & scouts so he had a week and a day for the tour permit. A week before this the SM was at the committee meeting insisting it is unfair to try to get anyone to commit to anything more then an day before the outing. But while he was out they did it and proved him wrong. The committee just brushes over the problem by telling my son to just make it up, easier then getting the SM to do what he should. My husband and son & his fiancee are the only ones with the hazardous weather, safe swim, safe boat, etc.. No one renewed YPT until new policy forced them to. An event can not happen without one of them on the tour permit. Lady at council is wonderful to our family, but yes.. There have been times when Tour permit got sent but no approval was made, 85% of the time he does get the approval on time.. I will give you 3 guesses as to who will make the biggest stink about my son not get the tour permit approved in time.. I told my son about the fact this the Tour permit is not for insurance, he is not sure if it will help or hurt. On the one hand, he can now argue again why it is unnecessary for in town trips, on the other he looses the fight to get the car info in order to have it accurate for insurance purposes. I told him to double check with the lady who does the Tour permits at our council, because if he says something they will most like go to her for confirmation.. Then tell the SM & committee if the whole purpose of it is to plan, not for insurance, it is worthless to do unless accurate planning is done. So until they enforce the policy so that he can do an accurate tour permit in a timely manner by planning the events, they might as well not bother with it.

I think stating it for insurance does give it teeth.. With out that it is sort of like why bother? What's the point? Planning?? Forget it, at least for my troop, I already said scouts are not asked to figure out what if they are going on an event until the night before since the SM feels it is too hard for them to plan in advance. On top of that, few give my son their car & license info including the SM, so he just plugs in those names he has until the seat belt issue is set regardless of if those people are going or not, or he state the parents are driving their own child when that is incorrect also. Planning?? What is that?.. Don't you need a SM that will instill in the Scouts the value of planning, rather than a poor outdoor coordinator, who is trying to get a tour permit approved.. You would think that if our COR was so worried about this Tour Permit for insurance purposes, they would require the Adults & the scouts to do enough planning early enough for it. But, when brought up at a committee meeting they did not want the hassel, and just wanted the tour permit done on all events in-town & out for insurance, but it didn't matter if the information on it was correct or not.. Since pre-planning to get correct info is not anything they worry about, tell them it is not needed for insurance, and then the question is what is the point of the whole thing. Might as well not bother to file one.

Platypus - No I was unsure, at first, more we posted I was sure he wasn't, that is why I asked him to PM you.. If I thought he was your friend and you were already working together on the issue, no need to talk to you.. Sorry about the typo.. and good advice you have given to Warwick on the issue..

Oh I know if COR want to make rules to be more restrictive (not less) they can do so.. But, you would think that if it was based on an incorrect reason.. The fact that they feared we may not be covered under BSA insurance without a tour permit.. Someone may have corrected that, when we on numerous occasion stated why our COR had made a stricter policy.

Really? This was hammered into us from our old COR who was very in active in scouts from childhood, and very powerful in our Council, and had been a DE years back in a different state. Our council always did have a policy that you need the tour permit unless meeting at your normal weekly meeting place, or within the city/town of you meeting area. Our COR insisted that we put in a tour permit for any in-town event that was not at the normal meeting place, or normal meeting time.. Why? Because she did not believe the Insurance was covered if we did not do the Tour Permit every time we met as a scouting unit when not in our weekly scheduled meeting. Council tried to tell us we did not need it for in-town events, but when stating our COR required it and why, they never stated the Tour Permit was not for the purpose of insurance. They just would then process the paper work. My son at the last meeting again tried to discuss only doing tour permits for out-of-town events per the Council rules.. Our new COR will hear nothing of it.. We must guarantee that we are being covered by insurance for every event.. So, do you know where the proof the tour permit is NOT for insurance purposes is in writing? It is something I am sure my son would love to have. Problem is that our SM insists the scouts can not possibly know if they can go on an event until the Troop meeting before the event. So my son only can do a tour permit at the earliest around 10pm on the Thursday night when the event will start either that Friday night or Saturday morning.. Makes the tour permit for him the worse part of his job. The fewer he has to do, the happier he will be.

We have more then one ACM in our Pack. I think nothing of it. Some ACM are duel positions but if they can get on stage and help the CM keep the Pack meeting fun and exciting for the boys.. Fine. Troops have multiple ASM's? Why would it be strange for a pack to have multiple ACM's?

The tour permit is needed for BSA Insurance, for the outing, not for planning purposes. This I think is an "Ask your council.." But, it was discussed somewhere recently what I got from it was.. 1) don't try to set you Tour Permit using the electronic Tour Permit, because it is not set up to do so, it will check for age of the leader & throw it out... So use the old paper tour Permit. 2) Put the PL signature as leader. 3) Get the SM signature. 4) Somewhere on the form you state it is a Patrol outing. (Someone stated you need Parents permission, but I don't know where that requirement is stated, and if you need to acknowledge it with the tour permit. I know it is sound advise, but just don't know where it is stated in the rules.) I would though ask the person at your council if they have dealt with them before, rather then just send in a form cold.. (Unless you are hoping they don't notice and you can sneak it through.) I have never done one, so this is just what I read elsewhere, and others can correct or add to it as they see fit.

Ahh.. share my secrets.. I knew you were Eagle, because after you started this thread it stated you had 2 posts. Your post was close enough to Platapus that I wondered if you perhaps were his SPL friend who was having problems. I looked at the other post (the number of post is a link that brings up all your previous posts.) You talked about a book you got at you ECOH.. ScoutNut I don't think is against you seeking help, but against you going to district with the intent of finding someone to fire the SM.. Even with seeing help you should start with the most internal adults and fan out from there. It is sort of the chain of command thing still. You would not want a tenderfoot scout complaining to the SM or the COR about his PL before he first talked to his PL, then to you then if nothing was done the SM etc.. Also district will have no part in fireing an SM unless it is a serious Youth protection issue. That would be the COR and if the COR is inactive then the CC and their committee.. But your attitude should be of seriously seeking help.. First try again with the SM to get a working team between the two of you. To be able to understand what he feels is important so you can accomplish it for him, and to get him to understand you need to command respect from your troop by being able to do your job.. Look at your SM as he is your boss, but if you were say the foreman of the warehouse he should not be coming out and talking to your employees about issues but going to you and letting you know what he wants done, then you should make it happen along with your own agenda of what you want done (which you should talk to him about so he is in agreement with your vision.) But if your boss at work started belittling you and threatening you, you would go to human Resource, not the president of the entire company when you are a foreman in a warehouse in a chain of 50 warehouses the company owns.. You need to work the chain of command.. First being trying again with your SM now that the battle of wills is over. Look at the other thread, the bottom of the first page & 2nd page have some great suggestions you could use to get a working relationship started, and get the rest of your troop to work with you to politely remind the SM who should be reporting to whom.. Also the thread will have Platapus post on it.. Just in case he doesn't see this post. Send him a private message.. He has been spending the last 2 weeks or so coming up with ideas between him & the SPL and they have their Unit Commissioner on their side and working with them. He would be a great one to ask advice from.. He has his own issues, but is working on them and I think he has the picture everyone here is trying to offer you.

Here is the link to the other thread. There was some very good ideas on it about working to change the Adult lead attitude that was address to another scout of similar age. http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=294225#id_294330

The uniform Inspection call from the SM if the troop is FULLY boy lead might not be correct.. But is normal for not only fully adult run troops but for those that are half boy lead & half adult lead.. (SM is trying but may not have full picture, or the boys have yet to take the reins the SM is trying to get them too.).. Therefore the "pick the battle" suggested is a good one, if you want to change the troop to boy lead, picking the battle hill I want to die on as being uniform inspection should not be it. The yelling, swearing at you and threatening to leave in order to control you are the issues I picked up on as inappropriate. Up until those last few sentences I saw a small issue of a pissing match between you & the SM, one that both of you had too much pride to back down from. It is true that once called, it was unlikly he would back down, due to a feeling that he would loose respect of the boys. The thing is to work on it not happening again. As Thrifty stated, if uniforms are a big thing with him, now that emotions are calm you should calmly talk to the SM, find out where it came from. If the troop is no longer wearing uniforms as they should and this is a big issue for him, find a way to get the troop to improve on uniforms. If you can think of a better way to acheive this go for it. If you think uniforms should not be a concern if you don't want it, that may not be. It should be a SM concerned about uniforms should have spoken to you and asked you to find a way to enforce adherence to the uniform code. You also need to impress on the other scouts (Especially your PL's who will pass the goals to those in their patrols) what you are tying to accomplish so that they will work with you and hopefully your attempts to impress the SM that you can take care of things with out adult intervention will be not only you showing you can do run the troop but the PL's also working hard for the same goal. If you are all working to prove that you don't need the adults to interfer, then this will get through. Especially if the SM goes to a PL with a command and he politely reminds the SM that he should be taking orders from you, so in future could he direct his commands to you.. Although your UC is inbetween District & your unit, most will first try to work with the troop rather then get bring it to the attention of others at District level.. And if you do bring it up start out with what you stated in your first post, to state that you want to work with the SM and feel he does have good qualities before stating the problem. Start with the posititives rather then the negetives so he doesn't start out wanting to rip his head off. I would not suggest you go further then the UC (unless he is the brother of the SM or some other related member).. There was another scout who was not an SPL but the friend of seeking similar advice for his troop a few weeks back. I believe it was started by Platapus.. If I find it, I will add it here, as some of that advice would be appropriate for you situation also.

What is the state of the ASM's in your Troop? How involved is your Committee Chair, Council Org. Rep our Unit Commissioner?.. A SM swearing at the scouts in his troop, even yelling agressivly for the purpose of wrestling the control away for the SPL who should have the control would be grounds to be replaced. I guess I am asking if there is there any ASM that could replace him if the troop took him up on his offer? Because if a scout came in with this story to the COR or CC I would think they would take him up on his offer, unless there is fear that no one can replace him. If there is no one to replace him, he at least should get a stern talking too. After which the others should keep tabs on his improvement by asking you and other scouts how he is behaving. This is totally not the right attitude or personality for a SM.. Since you have already earned your Eagle, I take it this was not the SM that has been in place while you were moving through the ranks, because you would have either left, or have already been accepting of his ideas that the SM is the head of the troop. Since you know how it should run, you got taught the correct way from someone. As Eagle, I suppose you can leave once your term is up, but that is unfair to those scouts left in the troop, to not try to fight to correct the situation for them.

Depending on the issue swimming may not get them confident to get their face wet. As stated I have the same fear, I can shower, wash my face, swim with confidence. In fact at a beach I prefer the deep, swimming as far as the buoys will allow. In a pool I prefer the deep where it is normally less crowded. I will go out in a motor boat and get out in the middle of the lake and swim with no life guard and no shore in site.. When a teen I swum across a relatively small lake as a personal challenge of my fears. Yet I will never put my face underwater on purpose. When my face accidentally goes under, I still suffer from a panic attack. These guys will have different issues I am sure, and as stated it may not be due to a tramatic experience and just a childish fear.. So with them confidence of swimming may work, some of the other ideas of attempting to practice with a face cloth or sink of water or whatever may work depending what is causing it.. Then again it may not. My husband having dealt with me and the illogical fear I have when I can confidently swim, something he knows will never get any better then what it is, is probably what is making him question how far he can be successful in improving someone classified (if not by a professional, at least by parents & SM) as having a phobia.. Well the holidays are making email communication slow for a response.. It will just be a wait and see if the fear has been professionally diagnosed, or if the parents want to go that route, or accept my families offer for help.

I realize my husband or other family members are not trained Psychologist and can make a professional determination as to the boys condition. They can though work with them and determine if they themselves are making any successful strides towards improvement, or are not any more successful then anyone else.. Thanks for the written info. Husband took on the job this spring, and the BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures book that you quoted from was no longer being sold, and the new changes have been held up with everything else they have pulled off the shelves. I will pass that on to my husband who can pass that on to the DE, DFS & the SM.

I agree with everyone else that this troop sounds to broken to fix. But, starting a new troop is BIG and maybe something you don't have the time for. You stated other boys go to different troops, and you are going to advise the Pack to shop around for troops rather then feeding this troop. Therefore it sounds like you this is not the only troop within a 50 mile radius. So if you are not up for starting a new troop the easiest solution is to take the advice you are going to give your pack. Just because you moved to this troop doesn't mean you have to stay with this troop. Start shopping around and find a more functional troop in the area. Or if you are gung ho to you can start a new troop, but that is ALOT of work. As for the testing of the BOR that is wrong, but I do question if a troop so dysfunctional really taught the requirements. Therefore does your scout know that which has been signed off, Or did he never really get the proper sign-offs.. If he really hasn't learned the skills, you shouldn't take what is signed off away, but if you can you should work with him at home to make up for the poor training he got from this troop, so if he moves to a new troop he can stand equal to those in the troop of the same rank.

OK.. I get the picture. Remember in my very first post the first solution I had was that my 3 Lifeguard/Swim instructors work with them.. Not How do we get them off? But heres the thing the DE and the DFS did not give this SM the answer of NO or Only with written medical proof of a disability.. Instead they came to my husband and said, It is your decision on what you wish to do as an alternative, or if you wish to do one.. This makes is seem like it is not as cut and dry as you all make it out to be. I guess I have a sense of what these boys may be going through. Having on 3 separate occasions in my young childhood, before the age of 7 coming close to drowning.. Twice begin saved by a lifeguard on duty, and once being saved only by a miracle of an adult coming into a deserted place except for my sister & I who neither of us could swim and saving me at the last possible moment. I will swim and enjoy swimming, but will never put my face under water without a panic attack. All my swimming stokes are side strokes and back strokes, or I do the breast stroke purposely wrong so my face swings from side to side, but never will go into the water.. With two being petrified it may not be near drowning, but it may be something in which they witnessed some drown and was unable to help save them or who knows. All I am saying is this fear may be more than a silly childish fear, or reaching outside their comfort zone. This may be the same type of fear you may get if I asked you to walk into a burning building. My family may be able to work through it with them, or may not depending on what set off the initial fear in the first place.

83Eagle While I disagree with Kudus or anyone putting down women as known inferiors to the superior male, and so a known insult to liken a man into this inferior race as a put down. (Same thing with calling them gay.) I think he has it correct that the OP feels that Leadership should be the main reason for scouting, and that the GS have it right to emphasis more leadership & Citizenship over fun activities and they we should change to do the same. Leadership IS the main reason I have my son in boy scouts and why I encourage him to be in it. My view is that some of the scout skills and methods we use are a bit outdated and not overly useful in the 21st century. I think that we and the BSA should take notice and determine if we indeed have a 21st century program that prepares our boys to be future leaders and future bread-winners. The GSA certainly seems to be ready to do that for our girls. Personally I think GS must have asked the few remaining girls in their organization and not the multitude of girls that have left their organization. If they are changing to work more leadership and citizenship in such a fashion as to make a promotional video that is all about that and nothing about the fun things you can do in GS, they got it wrong. If I were a girl listening to that to figure out if this would be something to get involved in, I would steer clear. If I joined and all they did was have me lead community service projects, I would bore quickly. Sorry Girls do mature faster than boys, and maybe can take more in serious stuff, so you could probably get them to do more with Leadership, and community service but they also want fun.. They want camping and rock climbing and would be happy to learn leadership skills to get them out to doing fun stuff. But Leadership skills with no purpose or totally for helping the community will not interest them for long. GS will be losing more girls with this new program. How do you teach Leadership & citizenship to empty seats?.. Better to keep the fun and the scout crafts and have filled seats be around, during the fun they will learn a smaller amount of Leadership & citizenship, but they will learn it because they are there, to learn it between all the good times. I dont know how much of Kudus program will survive the changes National intends to make to safe guide against lawsuits. If CSE Mazzuca does change it to take out camping & scout craft to try to reach others who are not interested in scouting, he will lose more boys and Adult leaders then he would ever hope to gain, because he will have nothing of a defining purpose to attract anyone with. Learning independence, confidence, citizenship, and leadership is not a program unto itself, they are side benefits. Other sports, other activities all claim their program will achieve that while learning this fun thing.. Children join for the fun, and if they learn those side things so be it. They will not join a BSA that only promotes the side benefits. Its like only serving broccoli for dinner. Broccoli might be good for you, but who wants to come to the dinner table for broccoli alone? Girl Scouts has changed to only promote broccoli.. Good luck to them. I hope we dont follow. I am hoping the new regulations dont squish Kudus program. Again I dont see many being able to follow it totally, but if more strived to be closer to it, you will have your independence, confidence, citizenship, and leadership while the scouts are just having fun. I dont see the new GS new program as being a sissy program. It is just a bad program idea. Bad for girls and bad for boys. Neither will be attracted to it.

My husband has been an Advancement Coordinator at troop level for years, enough to know not to push a boy through. Swimming requirements he is doubly consiencious over. He does not need to hear of a drowning of a scout that he worked with and stated had the ability to swim. Depending on how close they are located to us, and their willingness, I know my family will work with them for as long as they need to, they have done so with many scouts in our troop who could not pass the test.. Though issues were never phobia realated, so he always figured over time they would get the muscle, or the maturity to be able to focus on the task at hand enough to pass eventually. With 3 of them, they all don't need to be there at every session (though rarely are they seperated because all of them will drop everything for swimming.) It is more that our district has some distance to it thin but long north to south, we are at the southern most end, hopefully they are not at the northern most end.. Just not sure if they will have the know how to conquer a phobia.

Well then I will cross my fingers that hubby, Son & daughter-in-law can get them through, Maybe they took lessons from someplace with alot of kids and couldn't get individual time, or their teacher did not have the greatest patience when needing to work with an unusual circumstance.. Otherwise if they can not I hope that there is more to their phobia.. Seems weird that they have made adjustments for lack of swimming to get through the MB that would keep you from Eagle, but that you could get stuck on the very same issue that will not let you pass 2nd class requirements.