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Everything posted by moosetracker
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Beavah - You think you left some parts and pieces out of that..? Seems like what you pulled is taken out of context when you add the following from the same Advancement Policy & Procedure guide.. The members of the board of review should have the following objectives in mind when they conduct the review. l To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank. 2 To see how good an experience the Scout is having in the unit. 3 To encourage the Scout to progress further. The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scouts attitude and his acceptance of Scoutings ideals. I can then see the part you pulled out is.. But as they expand on those points again they stress the following.. The review is not an examination. The Scout has learned his skill and has been examined. This is a review. The Scout should be asked where he learned his skill, who taught him, and the value he gained from passing this requirement. The Scout reviews what he did for his rank. From this review, it can be determined whether he did what he was supposed to do. The review also reveals what kind of an experience the Scout is having in the troop. With that knowledge, the troop leaders can shape the program to meet the needs and interests of the Scouts. So with those additional comments I will agree with your first point, in that you can ask a scout something like.. "Why do you think it is important for you to learn CPR as a scout?" or "Why do you think there are physical fitness requirements".. But the BOR is not the place to ask them to tell you what the points of CPR are, or to tie a bowline hitch for you.. But OGE has the part I was refering to in the other post.. And it took going to three SM/ASM Specific classes in 3 different districts to go from disagreeing with what they were telling me about not retesting in a BOR to understanding you do not retest.. I am still unsure why this is a point of the specifics course, and never mentioned in the Committee Challenge course.. But then I always stated the Committee Challenge course is a joke.. I do like the on-line cub scouts committee training though, much more useful info in that the the troops version.. Only it wouldn't get into the way to run a BOR..
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I agree with 2 and 3 of what you say Beavah, But we originally were in a troop that used the BOR to make sure the scout had learned by retesting and failing.. I have had it stamped out of me that the BOR is NOT "To make sure the boy has learned".. You take it on face value that those who have signed off the requirements have made that determination.. You may re-check that everything is signed off, but again the SM should have done that before agreeing the boy was ready to have a SM conference. I was more geared toward discussing why the BOR should not be done by the same people who run the program.. So I didn't check off everything.. And yes the BOR is to evaluate how the program is doing, for this scout in particular and for all the scouts. The quality unit is a joke, anyone can get that, the only other one we had was a Unit of Honor which went away this year but it was more geared toward the same thing they grade the DE on.. Recruitment of boys, FOS, etc.. Nothing really about how the quality of your program.. An Eagle mill, a normal troop, and a troop that plays basketball or soccar as their entire program can all win the quality awards... Well I guess the sports troop will have to go to monthly sport games for their monthly events..
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I am unsure what our council did this year, I know people had to bring and write two checks, but one was for the recharter, the other was for the quality unit patch award (which most units can achieve without blinking). There was no third check mentioned about insurance.
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Should Scouts serve on Boards of Review?
moosetracker replied to Beavah's topic in Advancement Resources
PS.. One of the functions of The BOR is also getting the scout use to coming in front of adults he is not that familure with, so that the EBOR which will be in front of a bunch of adults he is not that familure with (if at all), is not so intimedating.. Honestly Committee member does not mean nitwit..!! We have committee members who have been old SM and ASM's.. Committee members who have been Venturing advisors and committee members who have the Appalachian Trail doing week long hikes then next year being dropped were they left off and continuing another week... We have a committee member specially trained to work with the scouts who are mentally of phyically challenged in the group, sometimes working with the scout, and sometimes with the patrol leader of that scout. 3/4 of our committee is IOLS trained.. Yet you state they are incapable of asking a scout, "What was your favorite merit badge?" And being able to under stand the answer a scout would give.. Sort of sounds insulting. -
Should Scouts serve on Boards of Review?
moosetracker replied to Beavah's topic in Advancement Resources
Well the BOR being the Committees role has had to be around for a while. My husband had his BOR with the Adult Committee in late 60's and early 70's.. They were tougher then too, and it was a test out, in fact his brother had to do two Eagle projects because the first one the Troop committee flunked him on, the second on the same guy that had something against his brother was ready to flunk him again.. I do think the adults got into an adult "thing" on that one and he was passed.. I am unsure if they had an EBOR at district level, but I remember this story being brought up a few times. Now aday, they have passed the skills with the Boys checking them, they have done the SM conference where the SM may retest if they wish, and the Troop Committee has little to do with another rehashing of the skills.. It is things like what event was your favorite? Least favorite? What merit badge did you like/not like.. What would you like to change.. etc.. If the boy has a hard time with the SM, or the SPL, I doubt it will be brought up if the SPL and SM are asking the question.. It is like singing a song, then asking someone how you did. You could be the worst singer and everyone will say how wonderful you were... Well except for my co-worker & family who tell me I can't sing.. (but it is just jealousy..) Besides the people we have on our board are very knowledgable of Scout craft.. Our ASM rarely go on outings, our committee do... It is something my husband wants changed, as Advancement chair, he doesn't see why he is the 2nd to the scoutmaster who is "expected" to go on all outings when 4-5 ASM rarely ever go. -
Should Scouts serve on Boards of Review?
moosetracker replied to Beavah's topic in Advancement Resources
I think one or two older scouts on a BOR are good, and we have done it from time to time, but not consistantly.. But, I don't agree that they should be in place of the adults on the board. Nor that the SM or ASM's should do the BOR. The board for the most part is not to be a pass fail test out, so it is not for the same purpose as the scouts checking them on their skills, in fact the questions asked should be little in the way of checking their skill level. The purpose is to find out what they like and dislike about the program and to find ways to improve the program.. It is also another way, like merit badges counsilors for the boys to get use to dealing and talking with adults who are not of the normal adults that they deal with in the program. It is a checks and balance, you need people to come in from time to time to run an audit on your buisness and figure out how to improve it. The BOR is sort of like an audit.. I do like the older scouts on the board so that they start seeing another perspective of the program. -
You got the right of it in dividing the work up in so many ways then just to keep you from going crazy with to much to do.. The best CC's are the ones whose main function is to delegate, delegate, delegate then just organize the monthly meeting so everyone knows what they need to do based on what others are doing.. Then the only other thing is dealing with the parents & adult leaders with complaints, the boys are the Pack and Den leaders issues, the adults yours.. The more adults involved in the program the less complaints you will get about the program.. No matter how good you are at juggling 90 balls, if people are not part of the solution they have the time to sit back and point out the faults.. When they are part of the team, they are happier with the program they feel a part of.. How to get them involved is another matter, usually the hard part is getting them to wade in. You really don't want to kill any positive move you make with anyone to have the current CC tell them to get out of the pool, because it is still his pool.. So how to get a guy who never knew how to let go of the ball, when he has never been able too... I am sorta with Lisabob (if the position was yours officially and he was still butting in and complicating the issue of you taking over).. But where the position is still officially his you have to get him to give you one or two items at a time, to learn and delegate out.. Is he giving up the position for a different position in the pack, or because his youngest so is moving on to the troop, so that is now where he should be headed. Some people do stay with the pack in order to allow their son a chance to find their own way with the troop.. Usually though not people with a control issue. So from that perspective, the sit down meeting should go more like.. First finding out if he is still planning to do , is he still planning on resigning or not.. If he does plan on you taking over for him, find out what he does want to continue with and let him have those positions. Then, let him know that you need this time to learn the job slowly and would love his help and guidence while you learn the job.. Let him in on why you need to divide all he did to different people, play on his ego of how well he did it all by himself, that you are glad he will continue to do A & B because it is something you now don't have to worry about, but even so, you could never do as incredable a job as he did and want to get others involved in helping. Then ask if you can take over one or two things now and start getting others involved as it will take time to get alot of people to take on positions. Take those one or two things, organize it, and when you feel good about it, go back and ask him for one or two things more. Make him feel that he is helping you learn the job and you are very thankful.. Not that you are jumping in (before his body is even cold) and changing everything to be different.. He is probably feeling the same thing others may feel when selling a home and strangers come into the home you loved for years and start talking about ripping out walls and painting the outside of the house a color you would have never painted it..
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Limit Number of Mbs with One Counselor?
moosetracker replied to AdvT77C's topic in Advancement Resources
shebmis - congradts on the new Eagle son!!! Don't knock the 17.9999 Eagles though, if the troop retains them for that long, they are finding enjoyment in the program in other ways then just knocking of requirements for Eagle.. Causing parents heartfailure maybe.. My son was soon-to-be 16 when he got his, my psuedo son was the 17.99999 scout.. Both stayed in and are still in at 21 and 20 and are still enjoying the program. My son wanted Eagle over and done with so that he could just kick back and enjoy the program, the other enjoyed the program, then dug in his heels at the last minute to earn his Eagle. -
And you could be right, I am unsure how much talking about merit badges we do with the parents of new scouts. Yes, our troop will talk about the difference of Akala and that now with the requirements in the Boy Scout Handbook, the scout must do the work and be signed off by someone else in the troop.. The difference between "do your best" and that now they must "Do compentently".. But with new scouts and their parents you try to focus them on the requirements of Tenderfoot thru First Class, and not about the merit badge program. So hopefully when the MB courses come you hope the parents and the sons have had enough time in the troop to incorporate the overall viewset of the program into the merit badge program as well. So maybe we are one of "those troop" by fault of omissions.. And yes there are troops out there that just run what is termed the Merit Badge Factories and encourage their parents to still act as Akala, and help their scouts through the requirements.. You just never know.. I just hate blaming an entire troop for all the faults when looking at a single scout (or scout parent) as a reference.. You just never know what the background of the troop is.. Is this scout a model example of the entire program, or is this one of the headache "helicopter parent" or lazy scout who believed he was entititled to something without the work, that the troop needed to endure..
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Don't blame the Troop.. It could just be the parent, who is not going to see the sense of the scout doing for himself, no matter what is said to the scout or to him. Take a few months back when I and a few others on the board tried to reason with a father who felt his son was earning the family life merit badge requirement of doing tasks around the house for 3 months. He reminded, pushed and dragged a complaining son over to do his chores, he did them "reluctantly" thus he did the requirement. When stated why this was wrong, he stated that it was not written in the requirement that parents could not help, therefore it was ok for him to help.. Point out the passage in the MB pamplet where it stated the scout needed to do the tasks cheerfully, without being reminded to show they could be depended on.. Still the parent was of the mindset that since it was not specifically in the requirements the words in the pamplet didn't count. Now, even had I not found a passage in the MB book.. How many of us would have needed it to know that unless the words state "with your counsilor" or "with a family member" or whatever.. It means the scout needs to do on there own.. But, there are those who will argue that unless stated in the requirements it is adding to the MB requirements, to expect the common rules and policies of the Boy scout program to be applied. So don't blame an entire troop for the beliefs of one parent. Parents can be stubborn creatures.
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You have got to be kidding: Overprotective Stories
moosetracker replied to Beavah's topic in Open Discussion - Program
I also agree amber alerts are either children taken by people you know, or a "misplaced" child that does eventually show up.. Also people registered as sex offenders are usually people who never stole a child.. They either had consentual sex with someone who was too young, or they are found with child porn.. But if you are in an area where there is a true known problem for children being taken and abused or killed, you do have every right to watch your children, and normally the school & police will be sending out notices that you do so until the perp is caught.. To ignore those would be ignorant. -
You have got to be kidding: Overprotective Stories
moosetracker replied to Beavah's topic in Open Discussion - Program
With bike helmets and other similar safty items I am inbetween.. Our NH laws are always being threatened but I agree with them. Put into law the safty measures for the minors, because the kids are too young to make the decision, and some parents don't have common sense. It hopefully will teach the youth the habit of using the personal safty items. The laws should not be in place for the adults. It is their right to decide for themselves. They should have the freedom to make their own decisions. Now the laws about not texting, typeing on a laptop and other distractions while driving as well as dui laws I agree with.. The personal safty is a decision that only you will be effected by, it does not hurt your attention or focus on the road.. The texting & dui also may be a personal decision but one that may injure others in the accident you cause, because of your lack of focus on the road.. -
Very cute. Thanks for sharing.
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You have got to be kidding: Overprotective Stories
moosetracker replied to Beavah's topic in Open Discussion - Program
well Scoutfish, as stated very early on if you do live in a neighborhood with high crime rates where your son has to walk by drug dealers and pimps, and there are drive by shootings by gangs.. Then I understand the paranoia of parents.. Maybe this is your circumstance. If you live in a quite suburb, but are panicing over watching a movie on a child abduction, or heard on the news that 5 states away their was a child abduction.. and you then put a leash on your child, you are being over protective. If your neighborhood has a high crime rate, then you have the right to be more over protective then my area that is very quite, yet every parent is acting like they do live in a high crime area.. Because of something that is less likely to happen then lightning striking the kid as he stands there.. -
Limit Number of Mbs with One Counselor?
moosetracker replied to AdvT77C's topic in Advancement Resources
As far as I am concerned, the BSA does general sketchy rules and does not nitpick for a purpose. It allows the units to nitpick with what is termed bylaws.. You must follow the BSA rules, after that you can firm up what they do not in bylaws. So when you find that the way your unit just sold popcorn caused you to have a family steal hundreds of dollars from either the unit or the local population. You can save your unit from getting into this predicament again with bylaws. When a boy or their family is ruining the program for the rest of the boys in your unit and you want a way to kick them out, you may just kick them out or have the boys come up with some sort of "1-2-3 your out" policy, not found in any BSA rules. If the unit has fundraisers that some families do not participate in, yet they are the same families spending alot on awards or asking for handouts with the pack paying for their childrens fees and uniforms, you may have a bylaw that ensures they participate in the fundraisers to get the charity. Likewise if you find that a boy is getting all their merit badges from a parent, and it is either highly suspect he is earning any of them, or your unit wants him to use the program for it's intended purpose of learning to work with others.. They either may have the the SM be the gatekeeper or come up with a by law for it. I see nothing wrong with bylaws.. The thing with bylaws is that exceptions may be made. Our troop had the bylaw of no parent working with the son, but the SM could lift it when he saw a perfectly good reason to. My son earned family life with me and home repair with his father, because both were really worked on in the home with the parents and then just reviewed with the counsilor. No one complains to council about poor MBC's they just quietly take them off the list the unit uses.. Why??? Because of the feeling the council or district would do little to address the problem anyway. Easier to just not use the concilor.. Take the mother in our unit who caused our "no parents for MB" bylaw.. She was MBC for all the Eagle required MB plus any electives her children wanted to take. Her oldest was pretty much through most of his MBs when discovered, her youngest had only 5 or 6 so far by her. First we found out from others using her for the Eagle required she was very unfair to them. Like for family life, she would accept being their MBC, meet with them even, the boy would start his 3 month charting to find out it was not accepted by her she demanded they start over again, because she did not tell them their starting date.. She also would belittle the boy taking the merit badges, force them to recite difficult information by memory during a "discuss with your MBC", refused written assignments without giving guidence on what to improve.. I fixed one of the boys who started with her and was near dropping out of the troop over the issue.. I told them they could change councilors (something they did not know they could do).. Another boy recited the same nightmare with her, again I offered to fix it but he never came to me, or finished his Advancement. Neither wanted anyone else in the troop to know they or their son hit this problem.. They both displayed a shame, like a victim who felt they caused the problem.. I made the SM & committee aware anyway without nameing names and we did not use her any more in the unit.. But never reported her either.. Later we figured out that she was really just using the MB system to push her son's through. They surprising got the badges easily with her.. But there was something else going on where she was trying to get some meritbadges slipped into council having forged the SM signature also and a big blow up about that.. Anyway my husband who is now District Advancement Chair never hears of a problem, with a councilor. But I can see him more taking a story and wanting to check it out before acting on one complaint, or waiting for several similar complaints. For all he knows it could be a personal feud that has gone on for years, and someone is overreacting or nit picking.. It is hard to check out the MBC with others who have used them when you have no listing of who used what MBC. Frankly there is no way to check that MBC are registered at all, and we know some units don't bother to register their MBC's.. "Too difficult a process".. The district only knows from the troop the MB was earned, not who the MBC was.. Also in approving MBC's, the district get paperwork on someone wanting to be an MBC, some things like swimming and Rifle shooting are checked for proper certification. Everything else is just approved, with no knowledge of how good the MBC will be. So it is really up to the unit to police this type of stuff. Some do it well.. Some not so well. As far as I am concerned.. Units by-law away.. Let the boys do the by-laws (most of which wont want others in their group getting all MB's by their parents.) or have the SM be the gateway, or have the committee do the bylaw.. Bend the bylaw when it is practical to do so.. Just ensure a rich and fair program for all in your unit. -
Ok RememberSchiff tell me that either I am not understanding your meaning or the end comment is being sarcastic (thus the smiley, face).. There are often good reference links on these worksheets to aid parents in completing worksheets for their scout who didn't read it nor the mb pamphlet either. This to me says you are saying that parents are using the worksheets to do the work of the MB for their scouts.. No need for scouts to read the MB, or do their own work on the badge either.. If that is what you are saying, then you it has to be sarcasm to say Now I'm sure there are some negatives to using these worksheets Ohh.. I knew I didn't like them because of the lack of communication, that I now have to work harder to make happen.. Now you got me wondering who did the work.. So far the penmenship, spelling and writing content hasn't hit me as a red flag that a parent did it.. To any parent doing their childs work for them all I can say is eeewwww.. eeewwww.. eewwww..
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My son did the citizen in the world during a Trail to Eagle at summer camp. This was the first (and luckily only) Merit Badge counsilor who decided the Worksheet was the be all and end all of the Merit Badge. Imagine being at summer camp and having to write up your views on citizenship on a worksheet.. No communication or discussion about the subject at all. Strange thing was this wasn't some counsilor kid they through into the subject that had no idea about the subject. For Trail to Eagle they ask for true MBC's in the area. This was held in the evening because the man who was the counsilor did it after work. My son being ok at school work hated it, but went through it. His friend, who isn't did not get the paperwork done. We found his friend a great counsilor after the fact and he had a great time with group discussion, they did something where they role played charactors at the united nations and took the position of different nations. they had the money of different countries and used it to figure out how to understand the monetary value from different countries. This was one MB I had wished my son hadn't finished at camp, his friend got a much better understanding of the subject matter in this badge.
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As for not having a physical guide about the MB, I suspect all the info will be on the App.It's a new world out there. The Scouts were born and raised in the Computer Age. They do not know or understand life without it. If it is easier for them, let them use it. Bingo... Here is what I get from the scouts I council.. Problem is the physical guide is not there, just the requirements. Therefore it is reasoned by the scouts that if it is not on the computer or app.. and they can't understand life without it. Whatever is missing from the computerized version is deemed unimportant, and "suggested" ideas. Basically if it is not written into the requirements that are on the computer version, it is "adding to the requirements" to suggest they complete the requirements by following the steps laid out within the guide. Therefore again I state, I would not mind the computerization of the "FULL" Merit Badge pamplets, but these countless computerized lists of the requirements only is killing the importance of the Merit Badge pamplets.. It makes no difference that National still only states the official source for each Merit Badge is the pamplet on the subject. I have yet to see them list a single computer website, or app as being an official source for the information.
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All I know is few of the scouts in our troop buy the pamplets anymore. When I ask someone to read the MB book, they ask where they can get on.. This from a first class / star or life scout.. Half come to see me without the book, but with a printout of the list of requirements, maybe the worksheet printed off the computer and assume they have found a perfect substitute for the requested MB book and free to boot!!! Most the others come with nothing, very few will actually have the book. I am one of the rare MB counsilors that use the books I guess.
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Adult Leader Drama, Integrity and Ethics Very Long
moosetracker replied to Hawkrod's topic in Council Relations
Hmmm.. I & my husband are on the district committee and are voting members. The terminology "members at large" or some such they use. Once a year they go through the list of "member at large" and the committee who have voting rights gets to vote the list in or out. Before hand you may vote to strike members who have not been attending. (seems kindof weird if you think you are voting yourself in or out.) We have voting and non-voting members, and it is based on this list, and really anyone that is active at the district level can be on it.. You get a number of how many by the number of people you serve.. So it may be tight for some districts if you are tiny or if you have an over abundance of district level volunteers. Our committee does have that problem to date.. Sad, but I don't think their is a single COR that ever comes to the district meeting. This was not the case with our old COR who was a regular at the meeting and really swung some power.. Now, there is some meeting that the Key 3 have that the others of the district committee always attend.. I have no idea what that is, I always thought that was the meeting where the COR's went, since no COR's attend our district committee meeting. -
I would privately talk with the parents and get them to understand what needs to be done to accomplish the Bear Badge, unless there are requirements that state, "with your den.. go to.." it is not impossible for the few parents to organize their own little outings to get it done.. Let them know unless it can be done before rank advancement they will need to get their Bear badge when the badge is completed by them. First off you have more then one, so no one should be singled out. Second off "Do your best".. means "DO" .. Not just "recieve for no work". Third off.. You are sending the wrong message to the boys who worked for the badges if they see you get the badge whether you work for it or not, and you will not be helping the boys at all when they crossover to scouts, because "Do your best" even goes away at that point on some things.. Either you can swim or you can't.. Either you know CPR or you don't.. etc.. And they will get no credit for just trying.. So to get them prepared for Boy scouts, at least stick by the "do your Best" motto.
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If the whole MB pamplet was an app I would not mind it.. Or on Kindel.. But I have come to dislike the ease of boys getting the requirements only without the pamplet. It has lead to boys not reading the pamplet for a clearification on how the requirements are suppose to preformed.. It has become that the requirements are the only thing that matters, and to ask the boys to preform the requirements using the steps outlined in the MeritBadge pamphlet is seen as "adding" to the requirements.. Asking them to pick up and read the MB pamphlet is seen as "adding" to the requirements..
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Adult Leader Drama, Integrity and Ethics Very Long
moosetracker replied to Hawkrod's topic in Council Relations
With verbal or mental abuse of children, I am unsure how true this is or if a DE was ignoring my complaint and trying to pacify me, but this is my expirience with it. Mine was at a troop level, but the SM there was abusive in that the troop would take in 20 -35 crossover scouts a year.. In about a month the SM would choose the 10 "keepers".. The rest were yelled at, not invited to events and their progress to Eagle was made more difficult.. My son wasn't the "chosen" few. So we left the troop and went to another, but most kids just dropped out, all with lower self-esteem then when they came to the troop. I talked to the DE about it, I could tell he hated the SM very much.. He started out saying something about he would like nothing better then to kick him out got enough through the sentence then he stopped himself and just looked like his face was going to explode before he got himself in check.. But, he said to me that he could do nothing about the charges until there was three seprate complaints on the issue.. I kept enough tabs on the troop through a friend still in it.. I knew who complaint # 2 was it was by a unit commissioner (not sure if he was that troops UC, but he had been ours, and his son was in that troop).. Nothing happened. Then complaint # 3 occured.. People from the council level came in asked questions of the others in the unit, (People who for some reason feared the district & council level as really scary figure heads and would not go to them with their complaints).. The SM was then permenantly banned from being a registered BSA volunteer.. They youth protection on a sexual nature should be dealt with on an immediate one complaint issue.. But the verbal and mental abuse may be needing the 3 strikes and your out rule. They might be considering your unit as a single strike... Now others can tell me how wrong I am, I can not see the value of this waiting for 3 complaints to move on serious charges, but I can only relate what I was told, and then what I witnessed. -
Greetings and welcome, If your sons are in the pack, then alot of time needs to be focused on them, but as COR you also must be focused on the unit(s) of your CO are strong and healthy.. Hopefully as they move to the troop, your focus will be less directly focused on them, since the best way to help them is to give them the freedom they need to try and fail a few times until they succeed.. But you should still have alot to do helping the units and all the boys in your groups have an enjoyable program. Come in and join the discussions.. There's always room for one more.
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Appropriate discipline for disrespect
moosetracker replied to 5scoutmom's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Scouting is all about challanging a boy and pushing him to learn from his mistakes, but the major part of Scouting should be that it should be "FUN". If adults take the "learning from your mistakes" to the extreme and are not fair it will unravel fast to the not having fun, and learning to disrespect those who are trying to teach respect, and then to seeing the value of a scouting background. We all are volunteers hopefully with a wish to help boys develop into wonderful adults. But, some do not even have that, it is more of a personal agenda. Others just don't have the skills to implement the program right.. Sometime in order to make sure your family is aided and not hindered by adults like this, the best thing is to move to a different unit.. Wish you and your sons the best in your move.