moosetracker

Reminds me of when my son attacked a kid on the playground in middle school.. Well he was expelled for 2 days, and had to write an appology when he returned to school. Well my son also did not want to appologize.. The fact was that he was bullyed by the kid and his friends for over two years. Punched, hit, spit at etc. He took the abuse.. What set him off that day was the bullies did not go after him, but his friend. So he stood up for his friend. Of course as is the case with most bullies when he got a dose of his own medicine he cried and went running to a teacher. So he struggled with the letter of appology. I read it, and hoped it would pass the schools approval. It did. But it was the best he could do and still be sincere. This was years ago.. But I remember something like.. "I am sorry I attacked you, because it this is your way, not mine. I know how you make me feel when you do it to me, and I really don't want to become like you. I will though protect my friends and myself from now on, by telling a teacher when you attack any of us.. So I would suggest that you leave me and my friends alone, and I will gladly do the same thing.. And, yes, he was not bothered by these bullies again. But personally if I am doling out the punishment.. No I will not consider an appology to be something I will force as part of the condition.. Either appologize if you believe it is necessary, or you are really teaching nothing.. I do though agree with ProudEagle, and I will try to encourage it, if I think it may be fear or pride that is keeping the kid from saying the words, but they truely do want to..

Maybe not the right words when I said "close the post".. I more meant put it to bed, or End the discussion.. the way FScouter suggests.. No I don't see a cross the line, type that involves someone physically closing it.. I was going to not type again & follow FScouters suggestion.. But I fear if I did not clearify then we would go on for another 10 posts about it not crossing the line to get the thread shut down.. I do though think anyone who stated her child was mouthy, uncooperative etc.. lost the chance to discuss the issue with the OP.. You can not discuss when you bring up Momma-bears defenses against her cub.. She is probably long gone.. And unless you were at the situation or know the scout, you can not know if he is mouth, uncooperative etc.. Maybe he is, you may be right.. But just as likely he is a typical kid who says something to a little brother or friend, not realizing the implications others will place on it.. And a kid who still has black & white values, with a touch of stubborn pride.. Saying something he does not mean to help mend fences for not only himself but his whole family is not a concept he yet sees.. He sees it more as not being honest, and being a hypocrite.. Shades of gray is a concept that is slower to learn.

Ditto.. Ditto.. and Ditto to Lisabob.. I was troubled by the way this thread turned to attack mode on the mother, but couldn't put my finger on the right words.. You said it beautifully.. I to have had to change troops twice to help my son locate the perfect fit, the first one was the hardest.. We had 3 people who needed to be convinced the move was right, mother, father & son.. and when one got to that mindset the other would change their mind and think things could be selvaged based on something or other.. Then the tables would turn and someone else thought it was time to go while other advocated to stay.. But if the troop wants you out, they will not treat your son fairly. It will be no fun to him and sour him to scouting permanently, and worse may cause damaging life lessons that you will not want your son to learn. Scouting is a way to help build empower your son to become a great adult.. Not a place to rip him apart. You should make the move before permenant damage is done. Ditto to Frank17.. Time to close the post. You guys are personally attacking the poster.. Yes there may be another side to the story (or three or four different sides).. But you guys are guessing at what the other side of the story is.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I am guessing that Mama Lope is maybe the person Hawkrod was discussing.. Hawkrod unfortunatly tried to make a point abstractly, but got narrowed into more specifics as people were confused by it, but still did not personally attack anyone as noone knew of who he was refering to.. ML has gotten personal to one specific poster.. I would suggest the thread be closed before it gets worse in the personal attacks. Time for moderator cleanup.

Note I have been at troop level, so this won't work for cubs, because you can't leave the younger kids at home.. But, we have had a barbeque just for the committee members for the last committee meeting before summer break.. We got our SM pink flamingos & yellow & blue pinwheels which for a while he would set up camp and place them around his tent.. Including the IOLS training.. And then there is the white water trip where the Adult leaders that went cooked up lobster and corn on the cob and had a feast.. But normally fun is just a natural thing, without working at it too much, humor and digs, with people you have a good time with..

As twoCubDad says you are just looking for fun with/for the other volunteers.. But, if you are hoping to get others to volunteer, that is your hook to them.. If those who volunteer are having great fun, then others will feel left out of the fun and wade in to volunteering also.. The only thing is you have to know your limits.. You can't get so much fun that you have more adults going on the events then the scouts, and the adults loose track of the fact that the first thing is to make it "fun" for the scouts, or make sure the scouts have organized and are enacting on their own "fun" (depending on the age of your scouts).. Then to have a fun time also.. Our troop had too many adults getting in on the fun and we had to put limits on it.. There a fine balance you have to maintain.

Hmm.. Yes Food always a way to a volunteers heart ! I have also a "food" story.. At a Jamboree, some adults got there early before the rest of the unit got there and had picked up chinese food for a quick bite.. Well our Districts DE.. saw the take-out and just started razzing them big time.. So the next day around lunchtime, when the Jamboree was in full swing over the PE system comes a big boomining announcement.. --Name of DE Here-- the Delivery man has just come with your pizza!!! --Name of DE Here -- Please come over to pick up your pizza!!!... The DE turned 5 shades of red, and knew right away who had set the announcer up to the joke..

I see where Hawkrod is coming from, and also where everyone disagreeing is coming from.. Maybe this story from our troop would give some light.. Our troop had a wonderful SM, enthusiatic, running a great program etc.. One thing that he was hard on was his scoutson who was not totally angelic.. But, the SM expected better of his son, because as he felt he had to set a great example so to did scoutson.. So if 3 people were talking while there was announcements about when to met or what to bring for a comming event.. Scoutson got reamed by the SM, and the other two would just get a "ditto to you two" type of comment.. Not totally nasty, but just a normal parent who his son is too close so alot of times a parent will be too lienent with his son, or too hard in order to show no favortism, but getting that totally as fair with son as all other kids is hard to do.. Any way one day SM comes into committee and say I am done I quit.. Who wants SM position.. Out he goes and he kindof becomes a drop of parent for a few months.. But, son still comes to scouts.. Maybe 6 months later he comes back in, but when asked to do anything he declines.. About a year later, he thinks about it, and say "Well, I will ask my son, and if it is ok with him, I will do this project for you..." So what happened to SM... Son talked to dad and said something like "Dad, I am having no fun in scouts with you being SM.. I belive I would like to quit..".. So Dad drops out of scouts, to allow son to continue with scouts.. Hawkrod.. Does this story kindof sum up what you are trying to say.. Only maybe in your version Father stays in and son drops out??

Sounds like a great time, but if I am reading your location correctly, Williamsburg Virginia is a little far from home for me.. I do wish you success! I would think you will have a big turnout for it, if it was in my neck of the woods, I would be interested in going.

Good thing I don't need to be the "expert" at everything.. In fact when looking for someone for this job the District was looking for someone who was a "non" trainers so they focused more on organizing the trainers and less on doing it all themselves.. I was a great canadate for being the "not-know-it-all".. position.. I rely heavily on everyone else to be the experts.. But the survey may be great.. You are right about being amazed.. When I did my first IOLS, I could not find any of my normal trainers that could do the Plant & Animal Identification part of the course.. I asked at the RT, for people.. I asked outside our district.. No one.. My son studied up on it, and I got a kit from the State Fish & Game.. Not great, but a passable job on how people who are not experts can know enough to present the topic.. So what did I find.. 3 or more people in the course who were experts.. And those in the course could point to others in the district with the knowledge.. Now I have a large list for who can do Plants & Animals for my IOLS.. It is just getting them to fill them out.. The reluctance is in the "unknown" of what we will look for then "volunteer" them to help out with.. I realize the kids will not be the natural experts.. The title of SPL or PL does not label you expert in everything.. Neither does the title of SM make you expert in everything.. I just think the best way is if possible is in order of best to worse: 1) getting the adult expert in to teach everyone in the unit. 2) to get some adults and some of the PLC out to learn from the experts and bring the skill back to train the others in the unit.. So the SPL/PL have the opportunity to offer leadership with the adults in training the rest of the unit.. 3) just have the Adults train so that they are the Leaders for the unit.. 4) to go with no knowledge and hope for the best.. (this could be #5 if things don't go so good) 5) Don't even try Adults during training will remember the boring saftey issues where the boy during training will remember the fun skill sets learned.. So definately Adults need to be trained not only youth.. But BSA District/Council seems to never offer option #1 or #2.. Only option #3.. The units are on their own to organize training using option #1 or #2.. The Rock climbing just came as a second example to mind, when my TLT wasn't working, because I remember discussing with a Venture crew about preparing for a Rock climbing trip by doing various trainings for about 6 months before going on the event, rather then just going without any knowledge or training and just following the Expert like sheep during the event.

You got some of it there pchadbo.. But you forgot.. Split the troop up into two age group, because the big kids don't want to be with the younger kids.. (strangely enough there is another thread going currently going that wants to kick out the tigers because they are too little & drop out too quickly & burn out the Adult Leaders.) So between the two we need to divide CS & BS into 4 or more seprate groups. Let us also not forget that Kudu says: Kids want Soccer -------------------------------------------------------- With cubs maybe it is true that alot of boys leave the program in cubs, but the majority join the program at the Cubs level also.. Kudu has much success with recruiting without using the cub program, but with most of our BS units few come in to the troop level without having come from cubs. My son did get his friend to join BS.. But typically if scouting isn't their thing by 5th grade, then they have been spirited away by some other program.. be it baseball, soccer, or tap dance.. So alot of boys come in through the cub door and exit before reaching boy scouts.. still others continue on into the Boy scout door.. More so then the majority of units can credit to have recruited on their own.. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Thanks Kudu.. I might just pick up the books.. Sometimes though with older books, I am puzzled by the reference to old fashioned do-hookies and thing-a-ma-bobs.. And then can't make heads or tales out of what they are trying to tell me. But my example was not at that point a reference to the 20 tools of scouting.. Just an example of how odd I find the program, saying the boys are the leaders, yet in any Leadership training the district holds & Council, has an "Adults Only" clause.. (except for EDGE.. I know alot of you people would be thrilled to hear that your PLC can sign up and take EDGE..) So maybe my example is not a good one, as you equate it to your "Older then JLT" program, and on that the SM takes over the leadership completely in order to teach the scouts.. So you would not see it an advantage to bring your SPL to a training on How to train the SM to take leadership to train the SPL.. But, if you were to do a outdoor rock climbing, would you think the SM should get the training from someone else and bring it back to teach the Scouts, or teach the SPL so he can teach the scouts (with between the middle man, there is more chance of forgetting parts & pieces..) Or would you have someone come in to the unit to train everyone.. Or if the space was limited and the person could not come to your unit, would you have some boys go to the training so it is not just the adults bringing back the information..?

Some on the list of 20 items I can see interest in.. But things like Troop Meeting Room and Uniforming the troop.. What do you discuss with this? As far as uniforming parent buys, Troop helps financially strapped or the troop or district has a closet of "experienced uniforms".. What more is there to impart? Troop Meeting Room.. You want it big & uncluttered enough to breath, move, and do break out sessions in.. Sometimes you have to make do if it is unavailable.. What else is there to it? I haven't heard much about feedback about if you would include or exclude PLC from the district training..? I ask because at our Scouting University the TLT (new version) will have a course on how your troop should run a TLT.. (From what I heard, it is now a mix of the TLT (which wasn't favored) and the prefered old JLT program).. But, this is suppose to be run by the SPL.. Yet the SPL is not allowed to go to the training on a course to explain to them how to run the course.. Only the Adults... I don't think I can go because as being a DTC.. I am expected to be a worker bee that day, but I plan to send someone from my training staff to it to learn from it, so we can put on our own TLT training which includes the Adult Leader and SPL (and whoever 3rd party needs to come to make no one-on-one issues).. Does anyone else see a hole in the concept of boy-run.. boy-lead.. but the lack of training we offer the "Leader".. I guess the concept is to train the Adult to guide the youth, but it kind of confuses the Adults on what is the difference of Leader & guide.. If we train both, and the boy is able to take up taking the info back to the unit on the get-go, I just think it helps un-confuse the issue..

The only thing I see as possibly spreading the Adult leadership too thin with having an older venture program, within the troop, is that you still needed the two deep adult leadership for the various outings each group may choose to do. Unless you get your CO & parents to buy into allowing the venture patrol to take off on their own with no adult leadership. When our troop had this it was a blessing because we had too much Adult leadership, and it was a good thing to spread them out to tasking them with attending different events..

Eagle92.. At least now you can do you boring SaftyAfloat & SafeSwimDefense on the computer.. I know before they were on line it was hard for my husband to go as they were always offered on weekdays at the camp.. He worked weekdays, But having the Lifesaving & Swim Instructer training & being the MBC for many meritbadges dealing with water, the troop expcepted him to stay up-to-date. So he had to take a day off to re-up them every so often.. Now he just click, clicks and re-ups with no problem..

Thomas54 - Your split of the BS program, is sort of what Venturing is.. Problem the BS program has with spliting the program is the younger boys group would definately become a Webeloes III program, with the adults training the boys in the scoutcraft. Then the split older boys program has lost alot of it's leadership responsibilty if they do not have to train the younger boys.. So it is just a good time group, due to this I have never seen any of these crew member even interested in advancement, though I will not discount that they can have a great time there.. If the older boys want that they can go to Venturing.. I will though agree with the grouping of the citizenship MB's into one, and one of the required MB's they can bring back to fill one of those empty slots would be the cooking MB, which was something they removed when they messed up the program in the 70's and it was never brought back.

Are there not pilot programs to add a kindergarden level to the Packs.. I think I heard they are being called lions.. Don't know if that is good news or bad news, given the feeling DL are feeling burnt out.. I do think our den lucked out with having a switch of DL as it went through. Our Webloes leader still wasn't outdoorsy.. But was new & fresh as our old DL move into the CM spot. But somewhere around wolf we also had our first DL move away.. Therefore we never felt the burnout. I have heard about recruiting Tiger cubs in spring once before. Our Pack always waited for Fall recruitment. That must be for Packs that go all summer long. Our Pack had a monthly event, one month being the council camp for a week (which Tigers who are migrating from K to 1st can't attend.) So unless you hold den meetings over the summer, it don't see the benifit of recruiting them in the Spring. We came from a very strong Pack, so I know the cub scout program is a valid program.. As stated alot of boys enjoy their cub scouts, but had no interest for BS.. Some may be from boredom in the final throws of CS, but many just don't get into the camping/hiking thing.. So it is not just a holding program for BS.. Our den was special all boys went from tiger to Eagle from the entire den though when time to pick troops they divided spreading out to 3 different troops based on the interests of the boys. Den Chiefs are great for the Packs, but I agree.. Regardless of if the Adult leaders of the troop may like to get you some DC for pack/troop relations or not, it was rare to find a boy interested in doing the DC position because many other troop jobs are done during troop meetings or troop events and rotates usually for most troops every 6 months. For the DC position it is a year long committment weekly with other events besides their troop events that they need to commit to. Plus the boys are excited to finally leave CS behind them and get to BS.. Unless the BS had a parent for the DL, we couldn't get many boys interested in doing that position in our troop, especially if there were enough other troop jobs to go around. Also I remember a CM & Venturing crew advisor both voicing their irritation about the Adult leadership of the troop.. They were in need of leadership. At the time the troop was top heavy with leadership. In their opinion the COR should go into the troop and tell the Adult Leadership that X, Y, Z needed to be leaders in the pack and A, B, C needed to go to the Crew.. Luckily our COR did not follow their dictates.. I was just floored by the assumption. We don't pay our volunteers, therefore volunteers signed up to the programs their children were associated with, for a position they have an intrest in doing.. You can't demand that a volunteer must volunteer their time where you demand they need to be, no more so then the Crew or Pack was successful at demanding the parents of the scouts step up and be volunteers in their own childs unit. They will simply not be a volunteer!

I kindof have a disconnect concscouter..Not sure where the 28 derbies & the equipment they took from you has to do with everything else in the post.. Didn't you just start the new troop? what equipment do you have yet that can be taken away? How was your very small troop planing to host 28 Derbies for fundraising.. Wouldn't that have been a huge undertaking? What kind of derbies?? Color me confused!!!

Eamonn wrote this in the related post.. A few years back I took a group of adult leaders to our local scout camp site for a day of pioneering. We had a wonderful day building towers, bridges, gateways and floating flagpoles. Each of them said that they couldn't wait to get back to their troops and do this stuff. I offered to help He is not sure if anyone went back to their units and utilized the training or not though.. He thinks maybe not.. But these creative trainings are the type of ideas I am looking for.. Something a little too big for putting into the University of scouting.. But Training that Unit Leaders would be interested in taking for innovative ideas, rather then training they are forced to take whether they need it or not.. I was thinking of offering a course to build reliable snow caves, but our Klondike stole the idea (not really, just parrall ideas and they got to it before me..).. So after our klondikes we will have lots of people trained in this skill.. Also would you offer this type of training to just Adult leaders.. Or Adult leaders and one or two from the units PLC.?? So the boys could have the knowledge to be able to be the leader offering the skill to their unit, and the Adult leaders are just the guides making sure the PLC, is teaching the skill correctly. Maybe had Eamonn had some of the PLC as well as Adult leaders at the training session, the scoutcraft would have truely gotten applied at the unit level?? what do you think?

I knew we were getting restrictive, but the way Beavah listed it, gives you pause to wonder (but not too long or I might get sick..) Yes we can still do alot of things.. But the BSA hook is not to be able to promote just paintball or just ATV's.. Just as it isn't to be solely to promote hiking, or just to promote canoeing.. Or dare I say it.. To just promote ... soccer... ick.. I guess some Ventures are that way.. I know troops can lean heavily toward a preference. I know one troop that was more hiking.. but did other things.. One that was so into white water they got their own rafts etc.. The real hook into Boy scouts is that we offer a little bit of everything.. From inexpensive hikes to high cost high Adventure.. The more we take away as not being allowed, the little more we eat into our hook of offering a program that is diversified, that allow the boys to try and taste a little bit of all that is out there to be enjoyed, and find those things they like alot or have natural skills in.. That is our hook.. That is what we are chewing away at bit by bit.. TwoCubDad - The other activities are I fear the hint to the BSA Soccer leagues.. Next will be the Dodgeball & Basketball leagues.. Eamonn - I loved this idea A few years back I took a group of adult leaders to our local scout camp site for a day of pioneering. We had a wonderful day building towers, bridges, gateways and floating flagpoles. Each of them said that they couldn't wait to get back to their troops and do this stuff. I offered to help I hope you don't mind my using it to break off to another thread.. Even if no one seems to have carried it through to their units, this is exactly the type of stuff I am looking for suggestions on.

TwoCubDad - Don't know about elongating Webelos and sending them to the troop just before summer camp. We had one Webelos leader do that, and it was a mess for the troop. Trying organize their signup for camp, the Webelos didn't want to make any decisions until they got to the troop to figure out if they would be comfortable with the troop to go off with them for a week. (Yes we did have other things that we coordinated with them, camporees & a November Thanksgiving campout they are invited to.).. But we could not sign them up with the other scouts, get health forms from them, or figure out what they wanted to sign up for in merit badges or other summer programs.. Just as well.. When they did cross over the parents or kids (no sure who) decided they were not comfortable to do summer camp with us. So they didn't.. Few (I almost think) none, stayed in the program long.. (We are a troop that basically does alot Spring & Fall, but except for summer camp, we hault the program over the summer months.. Therefore when the program restarted in the Fall very few Webeloes were in attendance. It might work for troops that have a good program throughout the summer. Don't know, just know this was an horrible time break. I would think shortening it to December crossover and starting the new year in the troop much better.. You always talk about Webeloes being too long and Boys getting board of the program before they get to Boy Scouts.. Making it longer makes no sense. Scoutfish - I know our Cub scout camp did have extra activities for the older boys.. We lucked out and they kept building new attractions yearly too while my son was in it. But I almost want to say that one of the perks of Webeloes was throwing hatchets at targets.. I think the BMX bikes was another, which you mentioned. If Webeloes can't throw hatchets, then I may be wrong, but I remember something like this my son looked forward to when he was a Bear and looking forward to the Webelos camping years. I don't think he was that into the bikes, there was something else.

Where does the time go? Wishing all of you peace happiness and prosperity for the year of 2011.

After the new year, I have a phone number of someone I found out who is in our district and has been a Webloes leader for 20+ years!!! I take it this Pack uses him similar to how eagle732 remembers the Webloes Den leader back in his youth.. The Pack Leader has nothing but praise for him.. I can't see all the den leaders for the last 20 years, giving up their leadership roles to him when their boys started Webloes if this guy was not excellent at this position. Ok this here is a gold mine for me.. If I can get this guy to agree to do some training, where would you use him for the greatest bang..? He would obviously be great on a Specifics training for the Webloes break out.. But I was thinking of possibly seeing if our Cub Scout Round table organizer could utilize him at a Round table discussion, and publicize him as if he was the newest Rock star sensation in hopes of getting those who rarely come to RT to come in for this discussion. Kind-of putting the cart before the horse, as he hasn't agreed to anything yet, but I would like to have ideas to suggest to him as to how he could be invaluable in setting A or setting B to help many of our Packs in the district with offering the Webloes program in a fun way, rather then boring.. Also in improving the Webloes to Boy Scout transition.. I don't want to waste his time having him doing countless trainings with small attendance.. At the same time, he might be an excellent Webeloes leader and a lousy trainer..

Scoutfish - I can understand the not wanting to hear about some irrelevant story like a daughters ballerina costume (although if soccer takes off this may be our next scout program focus).. Or listening to something about an after scout party. But some stories short and to the point of the instructors experience, say they are discussing dealing with problem scouts or problem adults, and accent it with a example or two of real life experience.. Those I see as very beneficial to me wrapping my mind around abstract concepts with some concrete examples. To me those things are invaluable, and sometimes make taking the same training a 2nd or 3rd time with different instructors still relevent with new ideas and concepts to take away.. It also is one way to personalize the power point presentations, which are dull & dry on their own. Of course most of the time I took multiple courses over again it pre-dated the power point courses. I do still revisit the Dutch Oven & utensiless cooking courses every time we have Scouting U though.. No power point, same instuctors.. But who cares, dishes always are different and great tasting and any way you look at it they are fun classes.

Well with recruiting Adult leaders and the family involvement.. I would think Kudu & Seattle are at different viewpoints, due to SP is in a cub scout program, and Kudu is in a troop that does not need much Adult leadership, because I would imagine his boys take on more responsibility of the troop functions, then most of our troops do.. So for Kudu, small adult participation is probably considered a blessing.. Cub scouts though need Adult leaders more so due to the age of the boys, and the structure of the program to include the family (and hopefully ween the boys little by little to more self relience.) I can see the lack of registered Scout leaders maybe being a problem due to many not being legally in the country, but if the Hispanics are suppose to be so "family oriented", to the point they can't do anything without their family in tow, I don't see why they don't at least participate "unofficially".. But then you paint a totally different picture of what Hispanic "family" may mean over Mazzuca's image.. From your image, I see older boys having no time for the cub scout program simply because they are too busy watching the younger siblings maybe even younger cousins or nieces & nephews, while their parents work 2 or 3 jobs. Therefore would they ever have a chance for any type of scouting program after the cub scout age? This tangled mess of a watered down scouting program, may hopefully just stay at the cub scout level. At least one can hope.