moosetracker

Personally I like the word "Woosies".. This is what I pulled from an on-line urban dictionary. woosie the act of being useless, irrelevant or completely lame. Hey!!! HEY!!! You all come right on back here.. Where are you all going!!

Seattle there is no re-test. Just the option of testing out if you want to NOT go throught the IOLS in the first place. Yeah I started this thread may moons ago. Things have happened since then, but not enough. I found the Council did have some policy that outlawed giving the "test-out" option in our council, and would not except the "test-out" option if volunteers jumped boarders to a different council, and came back with the IOLS done though a test-out there.. ****Sigh**** So I proposed a new option. I got positive feedback from some who where against the test-out. But, they had to take it up the chain, and I have not heard word back for over a month.. Meantime, the clock is ticking and I am unsure if I can do the new idea or need to put together a normal IOLS this spring (I planned the test-out this spring & the normal IOLS in the Fall.. Now I hope the new idea this spring.) They keep telling me the test-out is no good because there is no camaraderie or sharing of ideas. But, to take my knowledgable volunteers stuck in the "forced to go through training" and make them you trainers.. ("So, they can't test out, but can be the trainers.."??) So I proposed something that is the full IOLS, but with greatly reduced time, by taking those who could test out, making them my trainers, and closing the course off to only them.. So they really did not have to train anyone but themselves.. Which means in a way an advanced course.. No time spent on starting from the ground floor up. Start mid-way with a refresher, do the knots or orienteering quickly, check each others knots, make comments about improvements for maybe their backpacks or share different idea on teaching knots or other skills. Organize their own food and bring it and cook it. Hopefully by sharing ideas at an advanced level they can take away something from how different troops function. Sleepover is counted the next time we hold a camporee and they spend the night with their units.. That would definately have camaraderie.. I am waiting for a final verdict of yes or no..

Thanks Hawkrod, To truth, I don't think I have seen you say anything that I thought was negative to the posters here.. I kindof wondered though once when I tried to help you out of a tight corner others had painted you into with there not understanding your post.. I thought I got you out quite nicely, then you went ahead and dived right back into that painted corner. Yes you started out here with a problem that made you upset about someone else, that was already out of your unit and people hear just recommended that you let it go, and ignore it.. But that might be part of the symptoms also.. Other then that alot of people find this site, and post for the first time when they have some issue in scouting that is driving them nuts, and they need a sounding board. Myself included.. So for the most part starting here having a problem within your little world of scouting is a normal thing.. So I hope to see you around on the boards.

OGE your book is 1911.. Maybe between 1911 & 1916 they decided to do away with the adults... So we can pick a BSA method in common use at the time of June 15, 1916 From any country?? Seems to me since it is a USA Charter it is assumed the USA BSA program.. True it was left out so you can interpret how you want, but being a USA charter I think they would have specified a different country had they not assumed USA.. But yes I know what ASS-U-ME stands for.. What a mighty big loophole they left in that.. To state a specific date right down to the very day, and not specify the country of the policy you were to follow.

Well redoing the entire training event, and retesting are two different things.. Ask any of my fellow district trainers who are on one side or the other about accepting and offering the Nationally approved test-out of IOLS.. This may be true with the belly aching about redoing YP training, but again, it is a retraining every two years. People think they should be able to just take the paper test offered after the in-class retraining every two years But it is not. (test only is also offered on-line and confuses some people into thinking they can only take this, but it only acceptable if you can prove you took a class somewhere else also). But with YPT as well as Hazardous Weather, and other things like saftey afloat etc, etc. The adults are asked to review those courses every two or every three years. Regardless of if they are a 20 year long veteran of scouting, camping every month with water events for the majority of outings. But IOLS.. It would have to be an easier test out. One that was on-line, or at your troop level. Quick and Easy.. The meeting up with the training staff is too difficult to schedule.. The two day course is to long, complex, and too back to basics. Still even with an easy re-test, I agree, YES you would have your belly aching even so... Just as much belly aching as the boys.. You are right good troops will review the most relevant skills as they go through things, or as I brought up on a different thread, while the scouts are teaching the younger scouts.. Poor troops are really the ones who both sign off on a requirement with a cub scout "do your best", or "going through the motion is good enough, no need to really learn it" attitude and then never have the boys review because the adults are doing the training of the younger boys, and they don't do events that are challenging the skills.

You stated "Council Training event". Was it something like Scouting University where people put on programs based on various personal insight? Hopefully so rather then something like Cub Scout Specifics, which is to follow a syllabus so that your personal "insights" are not part of the program.

We had the IH be the COR for about one to two years, it was between the passing of our old COR and we now have a new COR.. While the IH filled the vacant slot, he was a pretty much absentee COR. Our units are use to, and indeed do run better with an active COR, who attends the committee meetings and also represents us at the council level.

I am no cub leader, so this is more a question then a statement. If a Tiger 1st, Wolf 2nd, Bear 3rd, Webeloes 4th.. Right? So if a scout goes into Webeloes I at the begining of 4th grade, at the end of the year, they will have been a Webeloes for more the 6 months, correct?? To me sounds like the SM completes a year in Webeloes but skips Webeloes II June - Feb or March.. It is rushing and cutting out the program as it is designed, but seems like the grades would be ok.. Also if a boy failed the 4th grade, he would have been in 4th grade while in Webeloes through his Webeloes I & in 4th again through his webeloes II, so he would be Webeloes for over 18 months.. Even in my sons situation, he repeated 2nd grade, but continued cub scouts with his original Den.. Webeloes I he was 3rd grade. Webeloes II he was 4th grade, but was a Webeloes between June thru March 8 or 9 months.. (he was also young, probably 10 when he crossed over.) I know he was not recommended age or grade, but this was 10 years ago (he is now 20). I was told the loophole that let him in based totally on his AOL, was in place then, but had been changed since. So, I would assume the site the quote he showed you that states "A Webelos Scout who has earned the Arrow of Light Award has now completed all the requirements for the Scout badge and may join a Boy Scout troop." May simply be outdated information. Still, it also implies that the computers that BSA uses is not catching this error either.. (Will wonders never cease!)

I was going to say must be because we had another poster with the same problem the other day.. I was going to give you the link to that post. But, found out it was started by you also.. I do not want to try to run it because once you start, your certificate is not printable until you end. But I will make one suggestion. I had a similar problem with not seeing the "next" button on a different site all together.. I knew the next was below what was displaying, but there was no vertical scroll to get to it. Solution was (at least in IE).. To shrink the screen by using the zoom control on the bottom right hand side of the screen. I have no idea if this will solve your problem, it is just a wild guess.

Seattle - the recertifications were for the requirements tenderfoot thru first class, not for any of the MB.. I will say although our troops will do other types of camping & events.. Car camping or as others refer to it "Plop" camping seems to be the major camping event for most our troops. The equipment that comes into a camporee is surprising! Most units have gone to those self-Popup canopies for their dining tents and a majority of troops own an enclosed trailer.. I will confess the trailer is our unit also, and we have a garage unit style dining tarp. But we also have a piece of property out in the middle of no where that the troop owns, it can only be back-packed into and the troops patrols are set up at least 300' apart.. Not due to knowing that piece of info, just because when the camp was first given to us all the patrols got to pick a patch of ground they like and clear it for their patrol site and it just happened.. We also hosted a camporee a while back in a place where backpacking was the only way the troops could get in, so they had to leave their trailers and dining canopies at home. But we will "plop" camp, alot.. Probably too much! Thing is our scouts prefer it, we do have some boys who may be what Kudu defines as "cupcakes".. There is a high attendance for cabin camping.. Pretty good for "plop" camping.. Low turnout for backpack camping. But there are a few of our boys who do want the backpack camping, so they just go out in a smaller group.

She didn't say it was only her unit. In her original post she stated I thought it was just that he didn't like us. But talking to other Scoutmasters, they feel the same. Are there executive at high levels that try to micro-manage everything.. Absolutely! I have seen it in many things not only in scouting.. They are usually well hated also for the power trip they are on, and the difficulty they cause in others to do their jobs properly..

OK.. So we can do away with EDGE. It wasn't a method for teaching in 1916. No teaming of boys with Adults of "character".. Kudu can be happy the patrol method can't be killed in place of EDGE, nor Adults of "character We should retest scouts at each level of rank for all their back ranks as that was a method for teaching. It's late, I'm going to bed.. Others can think of other things that should not have been changed if the "methods" in common use by Boy Scouts in 1916 refers to "promote," "train," and "teach" were not suppose to be changed..

I will assume they remembered more, due to the fact they were re-tested for their knowledge of their lower ranks as they went for the higher ranks.. Rather then current system where it is a sin to re-test after they are signed off. This on top of what you state as it being more rural and that they had less other things to vie for their attention between other youth programs, TV, video games, and all the other electronic gizmos.. Our troops can travel further to get to an interesting activity or hiking trail. But, I do think our units do much more car camping, then the backpacking style.. Though some troops are more proficient in the backpack style.. Plus we have lots and lots of new fangled camping gadgets that have become necessities of our camping gear between our style car camping and the older style.. But boy our tents are sure lighter. Most pictures I see of our unit when they started out in 1932, showed them with the heavy canvas style tents that are still popular at many Council summer camps.. Those must have not allowed them to travel lightly.

I don't think stating rules is what he is saying don't do, or is in poor taste.. I believe he is stating it can be stated without a high & mighty attitude, or in some way that makes the OP feel that they must be complete idiots for not knowing that rule in the first place. Such as.. Good example: Just in case you are not aware.. Guide to Safe Scouting prohibits Webelos from camping at Boy Scout camporees. Some of the reasons for this are .. A) B) C) Bad example: That is a ridiculous idea!!! G2SS specifically prohibits Webelos from camping at Boy Scout camporees. Why aren't you aware of that!(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

A am not one totin' the rule book in my head. But this is what I have been told about the Fundraiser form.. Basically it is just a form that a) makes sure that you are not doing your car wash across the street from Troop XYZ car wash, thus lowering the success of their fundraiser.. b) makes sure that it meets the Boy Scout appropriateness.. You can not sell beer or hold anything remotely associated with gambeling, or just ask for money without offering something in return (service or item). c) You have asked permission from the property owners, and have gotten any permits you need from the town or whatever.. (there may be more..) So on these reasons a fund raising permit can be rejected.. Since they have the right to reject the fund raising permit, then I don't know if they can put their own conditions on it. So do you have a good relationship with your CO?.. Could your CO sponser the fundraiser for you, and your troop work it and for your work you receive the profits.. It is sneaky, but your Council can not forbid your CO from having fundraisers, and he can not deny your CO from giving your unit funds.. You may need to change the name of the annual BBQ this year to sneak it through. Something like "Church XYZ BBQ in support of Troop 123" Next year, sell one or two boxes of popcorn. Now you have participated in the popcorn fundraiser. I know in our Council, we have out Camperships tied to popcorn fundraiser.. If the scout does not participate in popcorn fundraiser & hikeathon, then he is not eligable for a campership.. Thinking is the scout should do what he can to earn the camp fees himself, and then ask for help. I don't know if similar in all councils or not, or not.. Something I learned in these forums is that the popcorn fundraiser use to be that 100% profit went to the troops.. Nothing went to the Council, it was just something BSA offered to troops as a way to do fundraising, and they could care less if you utilized it or not. Then someone got greedy, and now it is seen that you are not supporting your council not to sell popcorn. Problem is the merchandise has gotten poorer in quality and more expensive as the years go on, and with most units they would now choose to opt out of it, if not being made to feel that they are not supporting their council to do so..

acco40 - you forgot the flipside. No matter how good an idea, someone here will trash it.. You just have to post your idea and count up the yeahs & the nays to see if it passes.. Or possibly pick up some suggestions & tweaks to improve on the ideas.

TwoCubDad, your explanation sounds reasonable. I guess from what I was reading was they were invited to the daytime activities, but could not stay overnight. Seeing that the cubs could camp with troops at others times, the no overnight made no sense.. If it is they should not be there for the activities & campover that makes more sense, because the activities will be things they can not do, or the activites will be lowered to accomidate them. As bbender states having the different activities is a choice.. But, yes you have to really be coordinated to do that.. With our district, each unit takes a turn hosting the camporees / klondikes & Hikeathons.. Or the OA will run some of them.. The event is a big undertaking for a unit as is, without asking them to plan seprate events for BS & for Webeloes..

Complicating this somewhat is the fact that we meet at the school so we're limited to the ability to cook stuff or actually set things on fire Really? Maybe this differs from school district to school district. We had our Baloo training at the Elementary school, and we had a cookfire that had the fire inspector check it over before getting permission. Had the guy brought in a raised pit, the inspector would not have come around. But this was interesting in that he put down garbage bags.Then put up cinder block sides. Then enough sand that the plastic underneath was not effected by the heat (surprisingly not as much as I would have thought.).. But since it was on the ground the inspector had to give his approval. Anyway, I can't say that the school did or did not know about the fire (I did not run the training).. But I would think with a fire inspector involved all the other checks and balances were applied and they had the schools permission also. This is some what similar to a Baloo training, but would provide good fun at a Pack meeting.

Well somethings may have a reason. such as the tour permit. If you don't have someone trained in hazardous weather then, the tour permit can be denied.. Also many councils our updateing there training records knowing they are inaccurate, but taking the scout at his word and updating now based on what the scout say. But some councils are not, yours is not the only one.. and I fear that as it is "officially" manditory the other councils will not either. This I suppose due to the fact that YPT was required this year, and this needed proof of your certificate, not your word. As many people on this site inform me, the tour permit is not needed for the insurance. I guess a council can threaten not allowing you to recharter without it, but if it is true that many units are getting the same treatment, you can form a boycott.. Council will be hurt far worse by the loose of 25 units and would not make good on the threat. In total of all things though he does sound sort of like a dictator. Problem is you may get by with that if you are paging wages, and jobs are few. But, this type of stance with a volunteer organization just means a loss of good volunteers and unit. Plus if people are not going out on events because of denied Tour Permits, and being put on the rack over going without, the kids will bore of the program and leave. Overall his success is based the numbers of people registered in the program, and the running of the area smoothly through dedicated volunteers.. Are you sure it is not district Exec, rather then Council Exec. Reason I ask is I know few people at the unit level needing to approach the CE for much. I am working at the District level and have yet to cross paths with the CE.. More our Key-3 will work with the CE. But the Tour-permit is not an operation of the DE. Usually that is more a person working in the office doing it for all the districts of the council. Seriously if there is a problem that is felt not just with your one unit or with a few units, then you really could make a serious statement by throwing a joint revolution of sorts.. But it would have to be Council wide, not just district wide. District wide would hurt your DE.. two districts just those two DE's.. It would have to make a statement that is council wide. Or you can just let things run their course, and allow people to drop out of the program over time that will either get the Council Exec to change before he is fired, or get fired in a few years time. Also I would start holding on to those little training cards you receive from your training.

I guess the missing ingredient for me to the 1916 Charter is level of.. More hurt over time is not anything in the Charter, it is just that the "level of" is alot less today, but other then that it is all still there. We teach Scoutcraft.. The level of is not as it was, does that mean we have violated it? We teach patriotism and kindred virtues the level of back , doubt it.. Now courage & self-relience?? I guess if you take a boy who is scared about standing in the rain and has never had a single thought that Mom & Dad have not fed him.. We will teach that too.. Problem is the level of courage & self-relance they start with when the walk into the door, and the level that we teach them is not the same as in the past. The ability for the boys to do things for themselves and others.. Again to what level.. Obviously "do things for themselves and others" meant alot more back then then it does now.. But based on the Society we are in, they will be able to do something for themselves and others that is new that they will get from scouts.. Now "using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916".. This is probably a "No".. Unfortunately again this has been damaged by the society and the mentallity of the Parents.. The world is more dangourous place, the wide open spaces to have "adventures" have shrunk and are limited to what you can walk on without "trespassing".. The parents have gotten more fearful, due to the true world, and the fictitional world that they see in movies.. Also parents are a) wanting to bubble wrap their children b) wanting to make all the decisions for the children c) want their children to feel they are "special" and "brillent" without really being so, in the hopes the sheer belief will be some sort of self-fullfilment.. Unfortunately I fear Kudu has to be a born salesman both with his style of presentation at the high school, and his follow-up calls to squeeze out of todays society enough scouts fill his troop.. Most troops would fold if National as of tommorrow did a complete about face and dictated that from this time forward we were going back to the old method. As for new stuff.. As long as it doesn't interfer with the Boy Scouts program I guess it can be added.. As I have stated, I don't think cub scouts is all that bad.. For most of the units what few transfer over from Pack to troop is what most troops depend on with a trickle or two who come in by friend recruitment.. Does the cub scout mentality hurt the Boy scout mentality.. Probably.. But more so I think just todays society has hurt the entire mentality of not only scouts, but school programs and other after school programs as well. Venturing & Sea Scouts.. I have no arguement, although they may detract boys from being in boy scouts, they still offer a program based on the scouting principles. Sorry though Seattle.. Soccor though I will argue does not fit in, Adding team sports to BSA just for the sake of numbers of youth registered rather then looking at the value it offers to the scouting movement, is just wrong. There is nothing in it that is based on the Scouting principles.. I will agree with Kudu that the Mazzuca statement side by side with an adult of good character, you're going to learn about who you are and go on to lead men is against the scout methods.. We are more to get the scouts to work with each other, their patrol mates in order to learn who they are and go on to lead men.. Who says because I am a registered scouter, and put on a uniform, I am of any better character then my next door neighbor, or my co-worker?? I would hope I am of better charactor then the guy robbing your stero out of your car.. So why would spending a day with me on a camping trip be of more importance then going fishing with your Uncle? Why is my charactor better then his?

The BIG difference between the lower ranks of Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts is the ability to camp as Dens, rather then camping with the entire pack.. And ("Correct me if I am wrong").. The ability to go without every scout having their parent in tow.. Now this difference depends completely on the Den Leaders comfort. If your counsil does not have a Webelos Woods (Don't know if ours does, It's a good question to ask).. I would suggest trying to find your webelos that will, and see if they would be willing to do a campout with a den leader more skittish, so the two packs have sort of a smaller more personal friendly get together, and the skittish DL gets some good advice.. Also nice to encourage the Webelos leaders to get to their OWL training! (Hopefully soon to be combined with the IOLS, Don't know if this is good or bad from the participant aspect, but definatly easier for the District trainer..) Also the DL should be encouraged not to insist that the parents be in tow at all the Den meetings and day events.. This loosening of the apron strings should give the Webloes some feelings of the program being "different" as well as giving them the needed feeling of independance that is good training for the next step into Boy Scouts.. I haven't been in Cub scouts for a while. But, I was surprised by the comment that Webeloes could not camp over at the Camporee.. I know we have discussed in other threads about Boy Scouts camping with Webeloes.. Strange they can camp together on other events, but not at camporees. But, it just might be the thing of "leaving them wanting more"

Eggs & Fudge in one serving! Yummmmmm... I know a few of our scouts when shown it at camp, ran home to do it at home and show their parents. But I don't think it was something they continued to cook forever after at home. As ScoutNut stated great easy at camp, but I am not sure it is truely an omlete or more scrambled eggs with stuff thrown in it.. That can be done with ease at home in a pan. But for a demo for cub scouts? Why not?

Seattle, I doubt Scoutfish's imaginary example of horseplay, was with serious injury.. More likely a sore bum, or bruise.. But, I know what you are saying. So would my example of asking council for an apology to my son, over a refund of campfees be considered a "power-trip"? Just curious. Because when we offered the choice we thought it was being very generous.. It was like telling a roofer.. "I paid for you to install new roof, but with the first rain storm still leaks.. Rather then refund the money or fix the roof, all I will ask for is an apology, and we will let it slide" Personnally, I thought the option was very generous, and something we only chose to do because it was the BSA organization.. So is asking for an apology under these circumstances also really considered a power trip? Obviously I guess our Council thought so, because they refused to apologize. Even though I heard from other in the inner circle, that they knew they screwed up.

I do have to amend what I said. I did demand an apology once.. Lisabob's question made me think of it. I demanded an apology from someone at the Council level to be given to my son.. It was when my son signed up for Eagle trail.. First off it was a bad summer where he had something medically wrong with him that we could not get diagnosed, but certain changes in movement caused him to short circit so to speak and have seizures similar to epilepsy, but it was not (anywhere from 0 to 75 times a day). My son wanted to do Eagle Trail, and since it wasn't rigous we agreed, but paid for another boy in the troop to go with him and look out for him. That year the staff decided to change Eagle Trail but not tell anyone.. It went from a meritbadge course, to an active course which they (thought) would teach all the youth all the MB's by just doing.. They waited till parents left then sprang "surprise" on the kids.. And started barking orders at them as if it was boot camp.. Don't ask just follow orders.. And they disallowed phone calls to parents to ask to be picked up. They did long hikes, Cope courses, some other courses, had then working on fixing up the camp.. And rather then the food from the dinning hall just fed the PB & J and water for the week.. When all was done, they looked at what could get signed off from the MB the kids needed.. And my son got I think total 2 requirements signed off from the 5 MB he planned on taking. Plus they lost all the work he did on pre-requisites, but did not sign them off either. So all that work had to be recreated later.. My son did refuse to go on the high ropes of Copes to which those running the course made fun of him for.. But seriously there was ALOT he should not have been doing that week given his medical condition. I asked the Council to apologize to kids, or we reimbuse us our money.. They had a choice. The apology was not thinking the Council would learn from it. It was so my son could learn the value of apologizing when you are wrong.. They refuse to apologize, or reimburse us our money.. So we reimbursed ourselves the money by giving FOS $1 rather then what we would have contributed until the funds were reimbursed for both the scouts fees for that camp program. Yes - I do feel that in our organization our Adult leadership should follow a good example of apologizing to our youth members when we are wrong, in order for them to learn the value of it. Normally "No" it should not have to be forced from us though. It really should come freely.. I just felt the council if given a choice of loosing money or offering an apology, they would have decided the apology was the better choice. Also in scouts I have apologized myself for things I felt needed it. As well as in other things during my life.. Our family was not the only one to complain though.. They knew it was a disastor, the next year they did Trail to Eagle the old way, because it was demanded they do so. After that, Trail to Eagle was not offered at our camp any more.

While looking for a new troop, don't just look for a troop that is exactly what you are leaving (during it's good times).. You will not find the perfect sister ship.. It would be great if a troop was healthy, but did a few things different then your old group.. You can't go in with the mindset of changing it, but if you adapt to how they run, you may be able to take your 14 years of knowledge and slowly offer a suggestion or two from your old troop, that will fix a problem they recognize, but don't know how to fix. Also if a troop is small and either starting out, or on a recovery from the down cycle wave that all units go through. You and your husband could be of great service with your knowledge to get their program off the ground.. Just, with these type of groups you want a clear understanding from them of their vision of the future.. This was troop #2, that did not work out for us. Their vision was to make it into a boys & girls club and did not want to run a troop.. They didn't want the boys to hold positions (unless in name only for rank, but most times they weren't interested in advancement either), the adults wanted to do the cooking and organizing for all events, the adults refused to get trained. Kids & people were nice, but it was simply not a scouting program, and never would be. Basically if the troop is not completely up to speed. But the dream of it's members it to get it there, you can help them get there. If they are not good, yet the troop is happy with it's weekly program of dodgeball or Adult leadership, you can't fix it, so those are the ones you need to pass on. But, yes you do have your Venturing program. So if the next troop is not the best match, your younger son can just move to Venturing when he hits 8th grade or age 14. As ScoutNut said, your sons have learned alot from scouting, and I would imagine so have you. We have a mother whose son is about to turn 18 in our troop.. A rocket would need to be strapped to him at this point for him to make Eagle.. The mothers comment was similar. "13 years of scouting down the drain".. My comment was, "Your son has learned alot from scouting and has had a great time being in it. Whether he makes Eagle or not, he has accomplished alot through the program."