moosetracker

TheBlanc - the Health form is stated to be a living form.. Therefore it can change today, next week, next month.. Meaning you should pull a new one close to going to your exam, and it is good until the next time you go to the exam.. If it changes 10 times between these two dates, then don't worry about it. RichardB - took me a while to figure out AHMR, was the med form itself (Annual Health & Medical Record) I find it hard to imagine some don't know about the med form, unless they are new scouts who have never been to camp. I for one would take the wording "Enforcing the height/weight guidelines is strongly encouraged for all other events." or at least change it to something like ""Enforcing the height/weight guidelines is strongly encouraged for other events where it is a risk factor." or better yet, " Enforcing any health concerns is strongly encouraged for other events where it is a risk factor." Take from my troop a boy who could have up 20-30 seizures in the course of a day.. (Don't allow him on the high wire Cope Course).. Or the kid with 3/4 of a heart, where when his heart fails there will be no reviving him.. With both kids their parents and the boys use common sense, but the medical concerns are such the troop leaders would need to say "No" if they didn't regardless of the fact they have no weight issues.. The "all other events." is confusing, and easily mis-inturpreted... I didn't realize it until now, you are the guy responding to my emails to National!.. We just had a chat on my confusion with the "all other events.".. What you emailed me makes sense, what the form says does not. We also talked about permissions - I will admit my Troop has been lax with the Parent permission.. For big trips it was just a short self made note of permission.. For little trips it's just verbal.. I really like the "Activity Consent Form and Approval by Parents or Guardian " but looking at the tour permit where it just states "permissions are secured".. I do not get something as formal as the Activity Consent Form, which includes "Waver of liability", or to even look for an official form. I basically get "make sure mom or dad, know the kid is with you this weekend, and he did not climb out his bedroom window and come to the event without their knowledge".. Which is just common sense and as important as making sure the kid gets picked up by a proper person approved by the guardian, and not some stranger off the streets..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Eagle90 Theoretically, a scout could start his Eagle project when he is 12-13 years old, and then not attain Eagle till he is 18. Chances are great the same people will NOT be available 5-6 years later! I disagree, theoretically the scout starts his Eagle project after he reaches life rank.. That can happen anytime.. Rarely should a scout reach Life rank at 12 or 13, but with an exceptional scout it might happen.. If it is not rare, someone is pushing the scouts through! Usually the exact same people will not be on the board, maybe one or two, but if not that is not the point who cares? That is because our district is made up of about 8 members, and they break up into running 2 boards during the evening. So the groupings on your board for the project & the EBOR will probably not be the same.. You have still gone through a preliminary of what the EBOR will look like while doing the project approval board. As for the Board member comming out for a visit. The boy gets the phone number of the person assigned to them.. They call to invite the person to come to whatever part of the project they would like them to attend.. If they don't call and or the time conflicts with the Board members personal time and he just can't make it, it does not hurt the EBOR.. Complaining "Why invite them?" To me is like crabbing why invite the DE to your EBOR.. Don't want them, don't invite them.. But, I have known when that visit helped. Our Board (for wrong) does try to go for that 100 hour mininum time, to figure if the project is worthy.. Now, I always thought it was during project review, and if you mis-calculated and went under, no biggy.. There was a boy in our troop who did a project that ended with a large public program.. The Board member came to the program. When the boy was at his EBOR, he told them the hours was under 100.. Some EBOR member started to complain that it did not meet the requirements.. The member who came cut him off telling him the hours were of no consequence in this instance as the program was outstanding.. When I looked at the scouts estimated hours though I scolded him.. He had left off so much.. Like the presenters time to organize and practice their presentations.. And some of the prep time, for the presentation.. He had well over 100 hours.. WELL over..

I may be wrong, but what I am reading is that eisely is doing the approval (Don't know if theay are a part of the Eagle board or not. But, I am just commenting on the fact ours is a complete board of 3 or more people who approve it.. You go to the same place the Eagle board is held, those needing a project approval go first, those needing EBOR go second.. So usually the times for the project approvals start at 7:00 pm and the EBOR people know not to come until 8:00 pm. Sounds like your process is also just one person Eagle92, so yours might be similar to the way eisely's district runs it..

Interesting - Ours is done by the same Eagle board they will go to for the final approval.. Not knocking you or the idea, but I'm glad we do it this way.. First off it gets the boys to come in front of the board and get to know them at least once before the final eagle board and thus puts some of the tension to rest.. Second, you have several people, so the project is not so easily disapproved due to one persons tendancy to dislike a certain type of project, it also has several peoples input in how to tweek it to bring a project up to specs (if needed).. A person of the board is then assigned to them to oversee the project. They are called and go out for a visit during one of the work days, to make sure leadership is being done by the boy.. Most times if there is a problem it is the parents that need to be spoken too.. They don't stay for the whole thing just a short visit.. Also the boy is made aware that when he leaves with the approval of the project in hand, he has now made a contract with the board to carry it out as stated.. It would take calling their assigned advisor if a change is needed mid-way.. Don't know how you would work that into a one person show...

I don't think you will find a written law of "Can" or "Can't".. This would be up to the Troop Leaders.. A personal opinion though is that I don't see it as fair to the SPL elected, unless he has done stuff that would warrent an impeachment.. If it is something that the favorite candidate was out of town on election day, well the favorite can wait for the next election.. Even if it had something to do with half the troop was out at band practice and not there to vote. Then that should have been a concern and a request to move the election off a week would have been the more proper solution then to have a boy elected, and then have it yanked away from him before he is able to do the job.. I am sure many of us would like a do over for the Presidential election, we too have to wait the 4 years out.. Troop elections are not so long of a wait.. My feeling is to wait it out, and have the boys work with their elected SPL, to improve on his job while in office rather then tearing him down, and not giving him the respect he deserves.. Again if he did something to be impeached for, then that should be a discussion with the SM, and the SM should decide if he should forfeit the position over his actions.

Thanks Beav.. I knew what you said worked for the district level, but did not know it would work that way at the council level also..

Again, do not know for a fact, but my suggestion would be to get a petition together and have a large majority sign it.. The petitions should state the problems in your council that you want National to look at and/or why you would like to go to a different council, if they are not going to fix them.. If your problem is your council and not your District, then it would help to get other districts to also send in formal complaints (or be willing to sign your patition also).. That would show it is not a district problem, but a council problem.. Otherwise the response may be that you DE is fired, if it is only your district showing discontent, and all the other districts are happy little campers.. But, I am a lowly district volunteer.. There are many on here having been a DE or are a DE, that may know better how to log a formal complaint.. It definately must be way more then those within your unit that sign the petition.. Are you sure the anger with the councils' policies are that wide-spread, to get a successful petition like that going??

Wow!!! That is major surgery.. I have no idea. Gut feeling is that unless you are a very very big, and very wealthy district.. Creating your own council would be practically nil.. Think of the expense of buying a council building and the pay checks for the new Executives, and then your district would have to form a few districts.. I think you would have to own your own camp also? (I think).. If you are dead center in the middle of your current council going to another Council would be hard, and whatever the circumstances before they allowed you to do so, they would have to find your reasons so serious that they would first clean house in your current council.. So it is just gut reaction, but I would say NO.. First would be do you have that much wrong with your current council to get national to intervene and straighten them out.. If it is the current SE that has you upset, normally they stay only a few years and move on.. Moving is how they climb the ladder.. (or descend it, if national finds them inadequate..)

Just to add to the info on the "Unit Commissioner".. This is a hard position for the District to fill for every unit to have one.. If you do not have one, then your point of contact is the District commissioner.. You can find out who yours is, by looking on the council web site for your district.. It should list the Key-3 and their contact information. The District Commissioner is a Key-3.. He should be able to tell you who your unit commissioner is, or provide the help you need.. Your Pack can not recharter yearly without a COR and Committee Chair named.. That is why you must have one (Unless you had one that quite since the recharter, some units do float without until one must be named during the next recharter.) I understand your not wanting your son to see you as incapable of standing up to injustice.. After all you are his hero (and should enjoy that until he turns to a teen and then you can't do anything right after that).. If it comes to you leaving.. It all depends on if he is aware of the conflict or not.. If not aware, he may question why you are not the DL any more, or why he needs to look for a different Pack (if it comes to that).. But, let him know that you are doing this for the good of the other boys in the den and for him, and he is the most important person in your life.. That you want him to have the best time in scouting, and you felt the need to change for the good of everyone.. If you do it right, you can still be a hero.. If he knows what is going on (my son always did, good or bad).. But little pitchers have big ears, and others would call you where you are talking on the phone and he over heard, or people would walk up to you and you weren't aware that he was that close by, or paying attention as you talked.. Anyway, if he knows, then bring him in on your plans as far as you can make them.. Let him know you will fight up to a certain point when it starts effecting (most importantly him) and other in the Den and others in the Pack.. If the fight can be contained you will fight, if the Cub Master though causes it not to stay contained.. Then for the good of everyone involved you will either step down or you will look for a new Pack.. If you take the high road regardless of the Cub Masters tactics, then you should be able to stay the hero in your son's eyes.. Just let him know you are taking the high road, and why this is the right way.. You really can not win as the hero if you stoop to the CM's level in order to fight him.. You know that, teach that value to your son. Also if you have a few other packs in the area, let your son attend and be part of choosing the pack. He may find some friends from school in one of the other packs, or really like a den leaders enthusiasm.. But even if you step down, or step out of the Pack.. It does not mean you have to discontinue your fight by bringing the CM unfair tactics to the attention of others at Council level.. I did for my son in a troop he was in, I had a stearn talk with the SM about his tactic and put in an official complaint to the district Executive who told me that it would take 3 complaints and I was #1, but I knew about the other seperate complaints that went in, and was happy to learn that the SM was permanently barred from scouting after enough complaints.. Who knows? If others have been shoved out of the pack unfairly have already made complaints, you might find yourself as the final complaint that will take him down..

Our troop tries, but depending on the scout whose job it is to collect it, sometimes it is neglected for months and then months back of "catch up" is needed..

I have seen what badgemagic does when patches come off.. Ick!.. I am so glad I never used it, though in cub scouts those little arrowheads drove me crazy (especially when I needed a new shirt as he grew out of one).. And the merit badge sash was no picnic sewing all the MB's onto.. Was so glad when the troop started asking the scouts to sew their own badges on their uniforms (a form of be self-sufficient).. Although this causes laughter as they sew the patch to the pocket so the pocket doesn't work.. Close up an armhole, or sew the patch & shirt to the pants they are wearing..

Well since in Cub Scouts parents can sign off advancement, and dens can be lead by parents until another DL & ADL are found, if no one found a willing parent from your group to take on DL & ADL, then you are being run by the parents, and if you are the parent who is in the lead.. Well... What can they do? But, I am more concerned with the whole fight getting out of hand, and moving into the whole Pack rather just between you and the CM.. Granted you are not the one moving it in that direction, but the CM is moving it into be a concern of the committee (and others from different dens..) And your den putting up a stubborn and valent fight, are moving it into a concern of all in your den.. What I see from that is that the rest of your time with this Pack will be miserable for you all the other parents in your den... The worst of all, this type of fighting and bickering will definately effect the boys in your den.. Not to mention causing anger and misery for many outside of your den who choose a side and take a position either for you or against you.. What you have to remember is the Cub Scouts is foremost for the boys.. Not for the Adults and all the things we adults do to ruin things for the boys.. I guess you can try to talk to the COR and Committee Chair if they are at all active in the Pack.. The COR can curb the CM if they take your side, and fire them if they see predjudice in the CM's actions.. The Committee chair runs the Committee meeting NOT the CM.. The CM isn't even a member of the committee he is a guest of the committee and there so the committee can get his viewpoint in order to know how to organize special events, or make policy.. The CM doesn't even have a vote, unless the committee has voted to give him one. If you think neither will be sympathetic to your problem, then for your son's sake (and your own) I would look at where those harrassed out of this pack have gone.. Talk to them and the Pack, and make a move for the benifit of your son's scouting career (and your own sanity).. If others from your den wish to leave with you... WELL... that is not your problem.. Scouting can be wonderful, but it is usually the adults who ruin things.. Do not get dragged down into the muck where the CM is forcing you into. Your reluctance to move is probabaly based on your pride, and your unwillingness to be run off.. Think of it not in this way, but more in a way of a choice of yours to go to somewhere that offers a scouting program the way it should be run.

When paying for the weekend trip, always remember the $20 - $25 fee is partly for food, and your son would have been home eating his way through your refrigerator, if he didn't go. The 4 day trip, may also be more due to more food for the outing.. But unless you know that Cumberland island charges high prices, again, the food may be all you will be paying for.. You still may have some upstart cost with backpacking gear and other camping gear, although if your area has no snow you may be spared the below zero sleeping bag cost.. But you can either go ebay, sometimes troops also have 2nd hand.. While visiting troops, these are fine questions to ask.. Some troops have amazing fundraisers and the costs are totally taken care of through the fundraising.. Others have great contacts and can pull off wonderful trips on a shoestring budget.. Still others may depend on the wealth of the parents.. So if it is a concern, it should be something you ask about.

I don't know about the fundraiser companies.. But I saw the exact same bars some in the carry box the fundraisers used, at SAM's about a month ago.. Seemed like the prices were good to make a good profit on them. I would imagine a place like Sam's would not blink if you needed to ask for several cases of them (if you like have 25 scouts & needed to start with at least 25 boxes..) It hit me because I remember way back our Pack selling both the Popcorn and the candybars in the Fall.. I am unsure if when we started it was candy bars and a few years later it moved to popcorn.. But I was young, new and naive.. Didn't think twice about what we were selling and if we were hurting popcorn sales by selling candy at the same time.. Didn't know anything about what boy scout product was, or when it was to be sold.. But, there was definatel some sort of rebellion back even when they had the $5 box of popcorn, from our pack.. Don't know if we changed to popcorn because our council called us out on it.. But, I do thing the candy bars were in the first few years, and stopped, then all we had to sell was the popcorn. Good luck. But I advise you not to try to sell them in the Fall, while the popcorn fundraiser is going on.

I always thought the medical profession should standardize their own med-form.. Print it from the computer with the necessary med info on it, and sign.. One form and insist the schools, youth sports, youth organizations all adjust to the fact that this is what they get.. I didn't know personally, but when I have always wondered if these multiple med forms every different way on the whims of the organization requesting it, was bogging down the med profession.. My son wasn't into too many after school activities but during HS our doctor had to fill out 3 different ones yearly for us.

Oh I was not as offended as JW.. Our troop rarely go out of council.. But the few times they did, the over-reaction of the Council started out as funny, but got absurd.. Didn't stop us from going out of council though.. We do have good camps, but it was the same MB's offered year after year.. Lakes the same, afternoon activities were the same.. I also know many troops from out of Council go to it, and I don't think they turn them away.. They started shaking up their program after that to , which was great and if we had anything to do with it.. But, every now and then the troop may still go out of council.. Because the change was very good for our troop, and the kids came back charged and excited due to the shake up of our own program.. It really was win-win.. But, the camp has enough out-of-council troops that they will not fold because one troop of about 20 kids that is in-Council dosn't attend that year.. You can joke about it, but don't get serious about it.. The shake up is good..

5YearScouter - That was my thought, just don't know if Dr. would sign a form in 2 places.. I know they use to have signature one place and some checks another, but the units will just take the signature, and allow them on all events.. So I know they are trying to make this form do double duty and say "OK for this.. Not OK for that".. And have it stand out to the units.. Probably even if it is as simple as two signature places, their legal team have to debate it and examine it and the whole 9 yards.. Wayne - nice to hear they gave you a more definative answer.. the reply I go just stated they were looking into the matter.. It gave you hope they were going to change it, but not a definite statement that it would be changed.. March 15 is when the early bird payment of a percentage of the camp fee must be in. It is hard for people to put down 10 to 15 percent non-refundable when unsure if their son (or if an Adult leader they themselves) may not be able to attend camp.

I think Basement would just like all the wasted time with introductions, jokes, coffee and cookie time etc pulled out.. Someone taking more prep time on the breakout session then reading from a book.. Then anything you can put into that extra time that is related to helping them run a better program..(or maybe a shorter session).. His is all about how a RT should not be run, rather then how a RT should be run.. Probably hasn't seen any thing resembling a good RT to offer much creative ideas on what that would be..

Basement - I now feel gyped.. we don't get any coffee & cookie breaks.. Sometimes the OA will run a fundraiser & sell us pizza..

Tokala - unless your camps are run down, you should not feel threatened by boys going to other camps for variety of program.. You will get others from outside council coming to your for the variety.. Give a little, get a little, and it is a win-win for the boys without hurting the camps at all, because they get variety and stay enthusiatic and active in scouting longer.. You can't be possessive, or you will just plain loose the boy all together.. Look at yourself more like a time share, someone may buy your timeshare, but they will continually trade it in to go other places.. Others will pick up that timeshare.. Why? Because who wants to vacation in the same place all the time.

Good question 83Eagle.. I know our District think this is the most important position you could have, and it is very, very important.. My take on it is, they are your link to the council.. If they come from a different unit, or work with different units, they may be able to give you some advice and perspective from an outsider point of view that will give you other options to try, that you did not think about because you were too close to the subject. If your unit is failing they should try to save it by either helping to mediate issues between warring parties, or find the needed help in adult volunteers by getting some of those parents who will not commit to except to take on some role.. Or will give you ideas on how to increase your membership and run a good recruitment night.. The main thing for me is having a UC who will not slink away at the first sign of trouble, but will roll up their sleeves and help pull you out of trouble.. If you don't have any issues with your unit, then the rest I think is well taken care of if you attend round tables and are open to ideas being passed around.

Not registered to a unit anymore, but the one my son & husband our in see their UC all the time.. But, that is only because he is the UC of just one CO's Pack and Troop, and it is the pack & troop that he was the CC for up until he changed hats to be UC.. Kids are grown up & out, so he does go on as many scouting trips, but he basically ran the Scout breakfast this past Sunday since it has always been something he did.. He is at most the troop meetings and most the committee meetings.. Little changed but the hat.. Don't know though how much extra value it adds to the units most times, as he doesn't add a different insight on how to improve based on a different perspective. But he was instrumental in saving the Pack from going under about a year back.

JMHawkins - I like the name change. Tour Permit, made it sound like you needed approval before you could go on the outing.. It also added to the belief that the Permit was needed in order for insurance to kick it.. Tour Plan makes it sound less like a legal issue is involved..

Well Jhankins, I hope he is responsive to the mass return emails with questions attached.. We will have emails on occasion.. The Council just sent out their Council newsletter, at least it had on top first billing about the new Tour Plan.. We have had information passed at RT before, (but I guess it is up to the DC if he thinks it is worth the time).. Problem with emails is that we do not have email contacts for all units, or we have it for volunteers that have left the unit, and it hasn't been updated in ages.. Problem with newsletter, is there really isn't a "Contact if you have questions" it is just an accumulation of everyones info, so no one to ask questions of.. Problem with RT is not all the units send represenatives.. But those who are there are there for because they want to get information..

Exactly the type of response I would have expected JMHawkins.. A polite, thanks but no thanks.. Or something about we don't have time for a verbal presentation, Maybe a breif flyer on the highlights of the changes, and the links as to where they can find the forms and a more detailed explanation.. Or something to that effect.. But no, he sent his poison pen, I sent my poison response, and I told our DE that unless the DC would like to sit down with me and discuss his concerns with me, in an intellegent manner. I will not attend anymore Roundtables.. Not in any attempt to have the unit volunteers hurt by the fued. Or in anyway cut off my own nose to spite my face.. But, more because there is obviously something that I am doing that is frustrating the DC and unless I know what it is, it is best I do not walk around on his turf..