moosetracker

True, you could be the next SPL if not 18 yet.. But a JASM could go to PLC's same as a SM or sometimes one or two ASM's go.. But if under 18 at JASM you would be still part of the youth leadership of your unit.. Also I might have steered you wrong, you can see if your district will fudge the age to let you go to training early, but they would not let my son go unt about 17 1/2 (although they let Venturing Crews do adult leader training at any age).. Therefore my son took every on-line course he could and had to wait. The NYLT would be nice, but the troop also may not have the extra cash on hand to send 3 boys off to it.. Doesn't hurt to ask though. If your SM goes to RoundTable, you might want to pick a troop to visit which isn't too close by.. He can talk to othe SM there and find a few.. Reason for the distance, is you want to excite them to emulate what they see, but not to jump ship.. If the troop you visit is too close by, jumping ship may be easy. I was not saying the changing of the patrols was the wrong thing to do.. I agree, allowing friends to stay togeather is important (as long as the friendships are not so entangled, you can not make a division).. Just that the method of how your SM fixed it was not the right way to do it.. You should have allowed the SPL & ASPL see the mistake (with adult guidence if needed).. Then allowed them to fix the error, allowing them to save face, and have the respect of the other boys they are leading.. If you look at the Troop Program guide it is not so hard reading.. You don't read it cover to cover.. It is first broken out into activities, canoeing, white water rafting, hiking etc.. from they list they can choose something they may like to learn the skills for (and as others stated, in the end go on an outing to utilize the skills).. Over time, your unit may no longer need the books, but it is a great starting point for a group who is clueless about how to get the Patrol Method going, because once you figure out something your troop is excited about, it breaks it down into about 4 meetings with the plans laid out. You can start by following them, then learn to modify them, then slowly move away from depending on them.. The others have given you great ideas about the outings.. The outings are the most important, but the meetings are there to develop the skills and planning for the next outing, and to be boy lead the boys must take ownership of the orgainizing and planning or they will continue to be boy led.. Also team building games & competitions will get the patrols to start working together..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

(edited to maintain anonymity of the original poster, as requested by them - packsaddle) Welcome to the forums.. One helpful suggestion, you have a problem that is different from the original Thread, you should open a new thread. The little flag "new" gets you alot more attention, then an old thread which many don't go back to the old thread since the original problem has already come and gone and they don't spend time rehashing stuff just to rehash it.. The COR can hire & Fire.. The Commissioner (or your unit Commissioner) may get involved in getting people to step up to the major jobs that need filling if the unit is about to fold due to lack of leadership. That is part of their function, to step in when the unit is falling apart. But.. Once the unit is functioning (or at least limping) they may not get involved and neither Commissioner or DE will take your side over a COR.. The COR's or the CO's own the pack, and they don't step in on their turf to side against them. Go to the meeting with a positive attitude, but stand firm in being allowed to oversee what your positions make you responsible for.. If the meeting is what you fear, then happily walk away, because if they are that sensitive over the treasurer checking over the accounting of funds at something where money changed hands then something is fishy.. If someone fears an inventory of the equipment, then something is fishy.. And you don't want your wife or yourself to somehow become the scapegoats if it comes to light.. and it definitely could be blamed on the Treasure or the CC.. You need to feel that everyone is being on the up and up, and that you have the right to review anything that your position makes you responsible for.. You should not be ask to trust in people who are suspiciously over sensitive about you poking around in the affairs of the unit you are responsible for overseeing.. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Rather then email, at the Pack meeting or Committee meeting individually take the people you want to talk to aside, and ask them face to face if there is a time that they would be willing to go out for coffee, and to discuss what they did last year and where they have intrest in going in either their current position, or where they would like to move to in the unit. I do email too to see who of my normal training group are willing to be at a future training.. I get no one to respond with "Sorry, I can't make it".. And those willing to train come back with an answer in a week or two.. Wish they would respond with a definate.. "Sorry" so that I then know to plan around them rather then guess that no comment means "No".. Then I get on the phone and call those who are occasional trainers.. If it was within a unit I would talk to them in person, but they are spread out to far with district training requests.

Welcome to the forums! Your just on the begining rung of scouting at tiger.. They are wonderful at that age, but watching them grow and learn and become more independent as their skills grow is a wonderful process. Wishing you a long and wonderful scouting career.

Welcome to the forum ES2010! I have never been a SM, so you will get lots better advice from others.. But I have some questions, that will help others also get the big picture.. I have been in my current troop for one year I am interpreting this as you earn your Eagle rank in a different troop.. One more patrol led? I get the feeling that there is total upheaval with the setting up of patrols.. There is something about the election of the SPL/ASM also.. So I have to ask.. Is this is the first time for this troop to have SPL and patrols? Did This troop not require the boys to have POR's?? How did the one Eagle become an Eagle? You can't get past 1st class without serving time in a POR.. I have seen troops that give boys a POR, but then the adults control them like puppets, or they were used as the SM's go-fer.. But, not one that didn't even pretend to hand out jobs.. I get the feeling by your comments the SM is also half-hearted about the change.. Currently, our SM is still switching boys to correct the "mistakes" made by the boy leaders. Wouldn't it be better not to undermind the SPL/ASPL at this fledgling start? There may be mistakes made, this is the time to guide the new SPL/ASPL, by talking to them.. Asking them how they would correct the problems, and guide them with questions to look at a few solutions, and then decide on a choice of action and allowing the new SPL/ASPL to make the corrections.. The SM has bascally just confirmed they will be figure heads with how he fixed the problem.. They will now be hesitant to make any decisions, but will learn to follow the SM lead.. At our last meeting, the SM instructed the SPL on which requirements to assign the entire troop to do. He chose the timber hitch, which turned into a five minute bowline and timber hitch tying and then an hour of "free time." Can you get the Troop Program Guide Volumn I II & III? I would get this and a few blank forms on the troop Meeting Plan http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34425.pdf and have your new leadership look over the Volumns and give them free rain to come up with their own meeting plans (With guidence to think about skills needed for a coming camporee, or troop event)... In order for them to "get into" the organizing of the troop meeting, they have got to get excited and buy into what they are doing.. (Also the starting of this Statement At the last meeting... So how much time did the SPL/ASPL have to plan this meeting?? If only 5 minutes and you gave them the instruction of only one knot.. You got out of that meeting what you asked for 5 minutes of tieing the knot, and free time afterward.. Are you organizing monthly PLC meetings?? Have you done a yearly planning meeting?? Do you have troop goals to work for?? The NSP I wouldn't be too concerned about, sounds like your whole troop is basically NSP's.. Depends on if you don't think the older boys are going to welcome in the new boys or treat them like nagging little runts.. My son chose a troop because at the visiting meeting the older boys worked with them. He loved it, he was not happy when he joined the troop and found himself in a NSP. Have you thought about visiting other troops in the area who have a good organizations.. Maybe you or the SM can visit them and when you find one you like have the SPL & ASPL come on a visit. Have you and the SM gone for SM/ASM Specifics training? Do not wait for the video, go to a real class NOW.. The little video will not be half as good.. I ask because all I mention about the planning suggestions in order to allow the SPL/ASPL focus on goals long term & short term and organize meetings comes straight out of that course.. You should also take the other training required.. I know you have the knowledge by being an Eagle scout, but now you need to learn how to be the guide for the boys and stand on the sidelines of the game, encouraging others to get into the game and play..

I would ask you council about programs they know about.. It was not council or district lead training, but it was a weekend (maybe 2) of a group that works with the disable who put together a program for the scouting community.. It had one person who was in the organization and in scouting, and a few others from the organization that helped them.. So it is not something I could title, or guarentee you can find the same in your area.. But my first stop would be to ask your council to find out if something similar is offered by a disability organization in your area.. My friend credits this training as being very benificial and truely worth it's weight in goal.

If there is nothing to keep him from finishing due to a time requirement (3 month chart or 6 mth POR as stated).. I would never tell a boy it is impossible. But I will tell him he has a mountain to climb, and he has to make the call if he wants to try or not.. Although from the right person telling the scout it is impossible, may be what he needs to prove you wrong.. I know I would not be that sort of lopsided inspiration though.. One boy made that mountain when his grandfather who was a career scout, and he admired told him he couldn't make because he had too much left to do. Then again, just this morning I get a call from my son.. He was proud to tell me he finished his Woodbadge tickets & 360's in the nick of time and got the Email confirmation he could be beaded at the 1yr 6th month cutoff date next weekend.. I may have been this type of inspiration, though I didn't think so. about six months ago I asked him if he planned on completing Woodbadge as he seemed to have stalled out.. I think it was his fiance who said "He has more important priorities" with him standing there and letting her speak for him and didn't indicate yes or no.. So then I said a few times when people asked about it, that he did not plan to finish.. So for some reason he was over joyed to tell me he had finished.. And how wrong I was to have given up on him.. He sure proved me wrong.. Huh, I just gave up on him because he gave up on himself.. I don't know if I was expected to push him or nag him or what.. But, nope.. You don't want to, you don't got to.. As an MBC counsilor would I work with a boy who couldn't finish but wanted to work on a partial.. Sure.. Most likely unless he comes in and tells me he only has 2 months before he's 18, I won't even know.. I will just jump in.. If he does tell me this then he will probably continue with I know I can't finish, but I want to do it for my own benifit (or something..) So how can anyone turn down a boy who wants to learn for the sake of learning?? I know I wouldn't.. Now If he came to me and said I only have 2 months, can you shave off a month of the charting, I would have to tell him "No"..

In a form of a contract that the benefiting Org is bond to, even if the project becomes a nightmare.. Shortridge is right.. The Benefiting Org can walk away.. But in all fairness the scout shouldn't be 95 to 100% completed on the project before that decision is made.. In terms of the benefiting Org asking for help on A. and the scout completes then the org deciding B. C. & D would be helpful also and demanding the scout do that for them to sign off on the project.. What is agreed to is binding they should sign off when what is agreed upon is completed satisfactorly.. Now if the scout wants to continue on his own, or there is another Eagle canadate willing to start a new project to do B. C. & D.. that is a different matter.. In terms of the Scout must feel that they must follow and complete what they agreed to do, per what is in writting on the proposal, and it is to the quality that the Benefiting Org. is satisfied with.. Or if changes are necessary they are agreed upon between scout, Benefiting Org, and district member assigned to review or oversee the project, it should be seen as a contract. They can't promise to do one thing, do half of it in a sloppy manner, and demand that the Benefiting org sign off because they ran out of time to complete it and it is a week before their 18th birthday. They can't agree to fundraiser for materials then demand the benefiting org foot the bill because the fundraiser are just too hard, or they didn't raise the expected amount.. In most instances I see it as a contract.. But, the Benefiting org can walk away.. Or the scout can walk away.. In either case the Eagle workbook is not signed off, but you really can't take each other to court over it either.. In that instance it is not a contract. The Benefiting org will just need to find someone else to complete the project, or rip the incompleted project down. edited to add: One more thing, if the workbook has you the benifiting org paying for the materials.. That means you get control of the materials.. The boy does not get to go out and buy walnut wood at the most expensive place because it is convient for him.. You can choose to make it out of Pine, ask what is needed and supply it from the economy store, or from the store that will give you 50% donation for what you buy from them or whatever.. Do not settle for them buying whatever they so choose, and just throwing the reciepts at you expecting you to pay up..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

If there is a fear that if you don't grab the offer of ASM now, it will not be offered again.. I don't think that is too much of a concern, if they asked you before you even had time to learn the game of boy scouting as opposed to cub scouting.. They will ask again. If you do want to eventually be an ASM though I would advise you to talk with the SM.. Let him know that this is what you really want, but you want to be the best ASM you could be.. Ask if you can take 6 months to a year working in the committee as you observe what Boy scouting is all about, and get out of cub scout mode.. If he tells you that this is a once in a lifetime offer, then take it now, but know that you should not jump in trying to change everything in your first month.. If he appreciates, respects your reasoning and lets you know the job will be there when you are ready.. Take a small breather.. Make your wife happy, give your boy room to make his way, learn the ropes, get the training offered and come in to the ASM position ready to do it right..

Eagle92 - if you have been involved with any Eagle projects you know of the contract, just maybe don't think of it in those terms.. It is the Eagle project Workbook.. In it the Eagle canidate first must figure out the scope of the project.. What the project encompasses (ex.. build 2 dugouts for the towns little league baseball field with size & other things like painted or with 3 benches.. ect..).. Then the estimate of the cost and how the the cost will be met (sometime organization puts up the funding, sometimes it is half and half, sometimes the scout must raise all the funds.. Figuring out what fundraisers could pay for the costs.. Figuring out who they will be depending on to do be volunteers to work the project (scouts, friends, family, benifiting Org. members etc..) estimating the time it will take to do the project.. etc.. etc.. When completed, the unit signs off on the initial plan, the benifiting org. signs off on the initial plan, and before or after these sign-offs (depends on the council or district) a member of the district will signoff on these intial plans.. This is now a contract between the scout, the benefiting Org, and the district.. It is up to the scout to fullfill the contract as specified.. The benefiting Org makes sure the contract is met to their satisfaction, and the district will also signoff if the contract was carried out (Usually the district is a rubber stamp if the benifiting org is happy, but sometimes ours has step in if the scout did less then agreed on without contacting a district member about the change, reason for it, and what they can do in place of what was taken out of the contract that is of equal time and/or value. Sometimes a change is necessary, like my son was to do something to the gravesites (think it was to remove moss growing on the tombstones), but the benefiting org found out after agreeing to it, it would erode the tombstones so asked him not to.. He swapped it for something else that was of equal time/benefit..).. So the contract after signed can be tweaked & nudged.. But not without the agreement of all parties involved.. Otherwise what is written on the contract is what the scout follows.. If who is paying for the materials involved was not addressed in the contract, then it is up to the scout to figure out how to get the materials he needs, it is not the problem of the benifiting org to have to solve anything he overlooked in planning out his Eagle project and what he needs to accomplish it.. Agree with others, scoutmaster should not be running the show, he can be a worker bee following the leadership of the scout, and provide the adult supervision.. but that is all.. Also it would be sad if the scout was close to his 18th birthday, but still not the benifiting orgs problem if he is taking shortcuts with the project due to it.. I as a benefiting org.. should not be at all concerned about him missing some sort of trumped up Eagle group deadline thing the troop or the district has going.. So he falls in the next group of whatever celebration they have.. The District Eagle Board should meet monthly, approves him for Eagle the month afte the project is completed to the benifiting orgs satisfaction.. It goes off to Texas & comes back and he is then officially an Eagle.. Just one waiting a little while for some group celebration.. I do hope the cost of materials is not extravagant.. Fundraising for them may put the scout into a delemia, but it is all a part of learning to plan the full scope of the project.. Just be prepared if the materials are way costly.. (like not hundreds but thousands), and the project is large in time to construct.. The scout may not complete the project, because he miscalculated way past his ability.. a couple hundred he should be able to raise..

Welcome to the forums! Number one, If you are the benifactor, you are in charge, not them.. If you don't sign off on satisfaction of the project, they don't get the credit for the Eagle project. Therefore you have a right to take control.. Not to the point of changing the contract, but to making sure the contract is to your satisfaction.. What is written in the Eagle project workbook that you signed with them is a contract between you and the boy scout Eagle canidate.. You, or whoever is the person in you organization who signed this contract with the boy, are the boss.. If the contract did not state who was paying for the materials for the project, then who ever looked over the project on the boy scout side (A district either has a single person or a board of people, look over the project to make sure it is a solid well thought out plan) did not do a good job, if they did not question who was paying for it.. If your organization signed it and it states you are paying for the material.. You may have signed something without looking over the details.. You are responsible for the materials, but shame on the scout for writing that in without verbally asking you.. If the contract does not state who is paying for the material, then I would say it is the scouts problem to figure out the fundraising for the project.. If you don't have a copy of this contract I would ask for it ASAP.. As for when they have access to the project, make sure you give them fair an ample times for access, but it should not be all on their time schedule, you have a say in what is convient for you.. You or who ever in your organization, need to start informing this boy as to who is in the boss.. In a nice, educational, beneficial way that allows the scout to learn and grow from the experience.. And maybe the Scout Leaders and troop need to learn the rules also.. thank-you for finding us and asking!.. I think this will be a very popular thread, and you will get alot more viewpoints and advice from others.. The one thing we want is for our scouts to make a positive impression on the community in all things they do, and especially with their Eagle project as it is to be the culmination of all they learned over their years of scouting.. Unfortunately all troops are varying in the quality of Eagle scouts they turn out, based on the current adult leaders and the historical culture of the troop and what level of excellence they strove for.. For some of us that bar is high, with others it is unfortunately low... And I personally don't mind those with a low bar, getting a wake up call from the community... But, it will be a shock for them to get it..

I didn't get an exploding tank, but I did get singed eyebrows and almost burned down the house.. Dear husband has conviently forgotten the whole thing.. "What, huh? Never happened.. Not me".. But I was the equal dunder-head!! He was the Eagle scout, we were only cubscout parents, but I had grown up camping.. So we had a nice fire in the fireplace with the doors closed so that it was a enclosed heater.. Big No, No number one, I tried to use the camp stove in the house on the kitchen table.. (Yes.. ventalation.. Don't do.. Bad girl..) Well then Eagle Scout hubby has the brain storm, to place it on the fire place hearth.. Like a jerk.. I go along with it.. So the roar & upsweep of the flames in the fireplace gave me just enough notice to back up from the stove, and I just got my eyelashes, eyebrows, some hair and I think one sleeve on fire.. My husband grabbed the fire extenguisher and put out the camp stove, but the stone mantle and large brick work, really had the stove fire pretty contained.. No explosion from the stove, but hubby was in the dog house for not rushing to extinguish his wife on fire.. And got a teased and harrassed for his great Eagle Scout knowledge.. (But then maybe his plan was to set the wife on fire.. One never knows....) So I agree with Beavah.. It would take alot to explode the camp stove.. I am the living dummy proof...

You sure can!.. It is great to get people at the district level who are not already wearing 5 other hats in scouting.. Welcome to the forum.. Just hope in with a new thread of some questions you have, or join threads already going with you opinions! It is great to learn by reading and discussing different viewpoints with each other.

Welcome back! Are you moving into cub scouts or boy scouts? Or have you been tapped by District?

I think the lone Scout is fine, as long as it is coupled with moving him into the troop activities as a guest, until he becomes of age.. BP - the idea for the other activities may be fine to challenge him intellectually, but the den leader is already discribed as not working with him.. Therefore the parent would need to do it.. I myself would feel more socially isolated if in a group of 20 where 18 are doing something in one area, and me and my mom are in a different area, doing our own thing.. It would seem less socially isolated if I was in a group of 2 to begin with.. If the troop has worked with boys like this before, I would expect the troop will know how to keep him challenged beyond the focus of normal boys, while including him into the group.. It is great they can tear through scouting ranks.. But also sad, because soon they will have done all Scouting has to offer, then be unchallenged again.. I guess doing all the MB in the list rather then just 21 of them does slow it down a little..

I wish you luck, and a memorable experience!!

Well if we ban it all, Soccer will need to go to. After all you can get a skinned knee, or two people can bump into each other.. No "VIVA Soccer" just "VIVA sit in chair" (you can get carple tunnel playing video games too).. Personnally I don't see it as quite the end of Scouting ("yet").. I still have some hope, we will survive.

Seattle - I figure I should get some Den leaders who know they are moving up to the next level in this Spring course, but I agree a Tiger leader taking the course in the Spring will be rare.. I figure if the on-line specifics take a big dent out of those coming to training, then we may cut back to one specifics training a year, or see about partnering with a neighboring district.. But if it is only once a year, then the Pack training would be in the Fall for the newbies, and Leaders who just went up a level.. The SM/ASM would be in the Spring, due to the influx of parents moving from Pack to Troop from the crossover in Feb/March..

dg98Adams - sounds like you have a good crop of expierenced trainers.. I on the other hand have a new crop of trainers, who are doing 10 other jobs so I feel honored to take this onto their scouting work load.. I am saying goodbye to some trainers who have been burnt out. While I am hoping to have this course get some registrations in the next 1 1/2 weeks, I would not risk burning them out or loosing them over demanding that they start training unit to unit over an 80 unit district.. I suspect my not being willing to overstretch my tiny training group will cause many to do the on-line training when available.. Who knows someday, I may have a training crew large enough to do what you are doing, but it would require the involvement of more Adults to be on the training committee.. I am doing some visiting of units to get to know them, and hopefully finding ways to increase my group. Yeah, telemarketing is out for me.. I do not want to hate and dispise myself as I dislike telemarketers.. You volunteer your time for things you enjoy doing, you don't volunteer your time with something you despise doing.. I am hoping people in our district start valueing the training they are offered. I don't want them running and hiding when they see "the irritating over-the-top salesperson" coming their way.

Your right, I'm wrong.. It was penned in as myBSA, not myscouting.. Thanks, I will ask my DE then for the district version of this, I can then do the same stats on the info from the council DB.. Somewhere in the middle of the two will be the truth..

Thanks, I do get the Trained & untrained Reports, for what it's worth.. Since some people are permenently stuck as trained even though they have changed position, and the position Training req. of the new position now makes them untrained.. Others are permently untrained even though they have taken all training and the report can not even list anything that they need to take to become trained.. I also get a real nice excel report from Council that states all the training on an excel spreadsheet for all active members.. And that one I rely on more then the Trained/Untrained Reports.. Thing is the Rechartering program is on MyScouting, so I tell people what our council Database showed as trained, and then the recharter uses the MyScouting database, and what I am telling them doesn't jive with what they need to fix in order to get past the rechartering.. The Report is Labeled the "Training Statistics Report". Will myScouting break it down to the district level?

Ok.. Third post I have started, I am monopolizing the board.. Sorry.. But doesn't count it was a test because my posts were erroring out.. So : 1) The last Monthly training update was in November.. It is now March.. Whats with that?? They did better with the bi-Monthly during the Jamboree, which they posted they were doing because those who did the updates would be busy with the Jamboree.. 2) What is going on with the update to combine IOLS with OWLS. It was suppose to be last Fall I was hoping it would be this Spring.. I have an IOLS in late May, I so hope the new training will be out by then.. 3) My DE sent be a statistical report.. In pen it is stated it came from myscouting.org.. It is for the whole council showing what myscouting.org has for who our Adult Leaders are, breaks down who has Youth protection & basic training for each adult leader position.. (Stats dont look very good).. I went looking, if it is there and hoping it was by District and also Unit, but if it is there, it is locked away from the common user.. I do see a statement that myscouting has Council and District tools.. Anyone know if this statistical report can be broken down to at least district level?

Hawkrod in the original thread was upset about a training that got cancelled.. I as District Training chair am hoping not to cancel one, but I have a training coming up for BS specifics, CS specifics and a Den Chief training, with 11 trainers ready to go.. So far we only have one sign up for anything! Aggravating is the fact the Statistics show that about 75 80% of those in our district needing specifics training are untrained. And I had four separate personal request to please ad a Den Chief training.. Classes are canceled in our Council if there are not a minimum of 3 people in the class.. So if I get 3 in Den chief, but none for BS Specifics, the Den chief will go, and BS Specifics will be canceled.. If I don't get more then 1 signed up for anything, they will all be canceled.. I will email the person who signed up the Wed.. before, and hopefully be able to direct them to a neighboring councils training date.. So far to promote it, I have promoted it at RoundTable verbally & in flyers to take back to the unit.. It is on the District Web site, I also did an email blast to all the units using our districts contact list.. I do have a little while, it is not until March 19th I will make a decision Wednesday 16th and email those who did register if it is canceled. I really do not want to cancel, as I have a lot of new trainers partnering with old trainers. This is the old Trainers last time out.. I can do one more Round Table, and I figure after a week from the last email blast, I can do one more Training email blast. I refuse to individually call for many reasons. I hate calling because few answer and for some reason most people now use an impersonal machine answering and not even telling you if you have reached the right party.. Besides the time and expense in phone bills, and then many now see phone calls to promote anything as being invasive.. I know if someone calls me to sell me something, it is the last company I will use if I ever do need that type of service.. I hate sales call, I definitely do not want to become a telemarketer.. What do your districts do to ensure a training is not canceled?

Ok I guess it's the post but it is saying the error is due to an equal sign (true equal sign).. and I don't have one in the post. I will try again..

I have tried to post something 3 times and get an ODBC - SQl error.. Seeing if it is the post or the system, by posting this. If this get through, I also have a gripe.. When I write something if my password or username is wrong, it says I can go back to re-do the password.. 10% of the time, I don't loose my message, 90% of the time, the message is wiped out.. I don't mind fixing the error, but if it was a long post, I hate loosing all I wrote! This error did not give me the link to return & fix, and the back page lost everything too.. Frustrating, but I can understand when the error is an uncontroled error..