moosetracker

KC9DDI - You may have explained the changes without knowing quite what I was refering to. All I knew was that the mixing of the programs was a new change, one some are grumbling about and others are upset we are not following the new changes and opening up the program to the Ventures.. I thought it was to Explorers to in the attempt for a "one size-fits-all" training approach.. I "assumed" that with a major shift of who the participants were, the course would have had to change.. You state that officially they did not change the course for this major shift of focus, but you are being asked to change what you call things, and the whole patrol method that is a major part of the course is in question about what to do with it. Bottom-line, sounds like there was not thought first of the course structure in order to merge the groups.. Rather they merged the groups, throwing the who course structure in a tissy, with no course layout on how to make it work.. I can see this being an issue for those who run NYLT.. I know for me, if someone told me that my IOLS course was to incorporate the training of the Girl Scouts with no changes to the course material. Then the Girl scouts came in demanding I not make reference to the BSA G2SS.. Or include things specfic to their program.. Yet I had no knowledge of there program and no syllabus as to what I should be teaching to cater to them.. I would have a royal fit.. Nothing about the program, or the mixing of the sexes.. But, the assumption that National just flipped a switch with no forethought, and expected me to figure out how to handle it.. We happened to have a large chunk of the NYLT staff at our woodbadge dinner, this year which was unusual. They were holding a staff meeting that day, and were invited to join us since we had taken over the dining hall anyway.. To me our council NYLT staff seem very much feeling a tradition & loyalty to it, much like woodbadge. I do think, we do give them a third bead for being on the NYLT staff.. But, I doubt the bead creates the loyalty. It is more a feeling that you are a part of something great, that it is an honor to be asked to server, that it looks good on your "scouting" resume (if nothing else) to be a staff member.. With both I believe we have people wanting to be asked to be on staff, and trying their hardest to open their calendars to make all the required dates for it.. Don't know how to start the belief within the organization. But, once started, I believe it is self-perpetuating.. Basement - Some people are on staff for years & years, but from what I understand they bump around from position to position. Our Course directors will have many many years of being on the woodbadge staff, working from the bottom staffing jobs up.. We only have one or two continue on staff after being a course director. For most this is their last and final position, they will not be called any more.. But our Council training chair, and a past council training chair do remain on staff even though both have been Course directors(I think they are advisors)..

An additional question from me.. NYLT is suppose to be the equivalent of Woodbadge right?.. Woodbadge always has a new course director, new staff elected etc. In fact once you are a course director, you can never be it again. I know you can only be troop guide once, and a few other staff positions once. (This is my first time on staff this year, I had a choice of a troop guide or scribe.. I choose scribe, as I felt I would be more comfortable with it.) Sounds like our scribes can be scribe a few years though. As I hear comments like "so & so is usually scribe", "I did scribe for a few years.").. Any way, the way Woodbadge is staffed, it isn't really owned by anyone who has run it for years and years.. Why is NYLT not run in a similar manner? Why can the (I presume his title is course director) Course director be the same person year after year. So that this feeling of "ownership" can occur??(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

In the originating thread, NJCubScouter asked me the difference between the old & new style of NYLT.. I thought to spin it off, as it may be a subject that would hijack the original thread, and it might be a subject to attract & interest people who are not following the other thread.. I have not been a part of the old/new style, to give a blow by blow difference on it. Maybe some of you guys have been involved to know the changes. I would imagine there must be some watering down of the Boy Scout specific topics to make it more generic to the three programs. But, the subject was introduced as an example of one person (who donates a lot to the council).. He also runs our NYLT program for years, not accepting the new NYLT program. Refuses to do it, and our council not forcing the issue (sounds like due to contribution, but I am sure it is a question of not wanting to find his replacement for the job). Instead they are looking to create a second weekend course and run the old style program with the original guy. And the new NYLT with a whole new group of staff (after they find someone willing to take it on, and enough staff to man it, which is an issue in itself).. I do not know if there is complanit of the change of the program. Others might be able to explain that. The biggest upheaval and objection I hear about is to the allowing of the Venturers & Explorers in.. Meaning co-ed as well as a mixing of the different programs.. To hard core Boy Scout enthusists there are those who disapprove of the Venturing program altogether and see it as loosy-goosy with no direction or purpose (Never heard of the same objections to the Explorers.. They were just a different program, and not much on the radar.) Others do not want to take on the issues and headaches that the co-ed equation brings with it (not the women as women but the co-ed mixing and having to worry about sexual attraction at an age where the libido is running rampant and the brain is not mature to think things through).. Others do not want to deal with the females and it may be discrimination.. For all I know the philanthopist I am talking about could be one of the religions "Later Day" or whatever that has a big problem with a co-ed program.. So for the same reasons that getting Boy Scouts to someday go co-ed is a problem even if you leave it up to the units to choose.. This may be the issue with asking him to make the NYLT program co-ed. So, what is the opinion on the subject of the NYLT program change? I know it was brought up before about 6 months ago, as a new change. I heard some grumbling on the forum about the change. Is anyone implementing the change? How is it going? What is different? What do you think about the it? Is any other council having resistance to the change, like my council?(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Ahhhh... Horse of a different color altogether! Ok.. In order for the BSA insurance to kick in if something happens, and for you, or for the parents who are hosting the backyard camping trip not to get their personal pants sued off of them. The insurance company does need some bona-fide proof that it was indeed a legitamite BSA event. (and some concrete things the insurance company will not pay for followed like not doing ski diving).. As we discussed in other post this does not require the filling out of a tour permit, but it does require something that will be solid proof this was a legitamite BSA Event.. So if the boys just go off and do, without approval of the adult leaders in your troop, they may say it is a BSA event. Insurance will require proof that it was a BSA event.. So here is some Questions they will ask for proof? Did the SM & adult leaders know and approve the event? No.. Did you discussed the event at a committee meeting? No.. Was it discussed at a troop meeting No.. Was the event on a troop calendar or website? No.. Was money collected at a troop meeting or driving arrangements made at a troop meeting? No.. Was a tour plan filed? No.. See what I am getting at? No proof this was a scout event.. And in truth it really wouldn't be. What would prevent them from holding a teenage party, with drinking and other teenagers, having the cops come (don't know if Sweden has under age drinking laws just an example).. And the kids saying it was a BSA event, with invited guests for recruitment?.. So what would happen if I was building something personal in the basement, cut off my thumb in a saw, and then state it was for BSA, I was building them a surprise plaque or storage bin, that no one asked me to build, so I wanted the BSA insurance to kick in.. Of course insurance is only one concern. You as adult Leaders want to know what the patrols are doing.. Did they plan well for it? Did they get the proper permits? Do people know where they are going and when they are expected back?.. You want to make sure these kids are being safe in their planning of events. They are utilizing the G2SS, at least as a guide rather then a rule book.. So maybe they plan to ignore 1 or 2 miner things in the guide for a good reason, but are following the majority, rather then having 10 things not followed and alot of possibility for injury.. If you and the other adults are going to be made to feel responsible if something goes wrong. You do not want to get hit with the fact it went wrong because you did not take your responsiblity seriously and just let the kids run wild and "do their thing"..

Oh, ScoutBox - Your original post lead me to believe you were more fearful of letting them do something without adaquate adult leadership. -- We believe first that it's great they want to go camping. But the lack of trained ASMs and YPT by the boys' parents is the first problem. Also that you were just patching up the troop from poor leadership. Therefore these scouts needed some mild bonding expieriences before they did more adventurous patrol activites.. -- the former SM didn't play much of a role within the troop. So now we are trying to sort through the mess, so to say. One issue is Patrol Camping and Outings So hopefully I did not mis-inturpret what you were asking. If your patrols have to redefine a cohesive well run patrol through bonding activities, then, all I was trying to say is that even though it is mild, let them do things like this to get the bonding going. My only concern was the changes that make overnights not allowed for patrol events. But, if you can put the leadership a few yards away in a house, it should be ok.. If your objection is you think it is too much for them, then I would say it is tame enough, and not to worry.. But, your last post kind of made it sound like your objections is that you think it is not challenging enough.. If your patrols have been doing patrol activities for a long time, and are a well run group, maybe it is too light.. But so what?.. If they need to get the time to become a well running group, then it is a great way to bond, even if the activity is light, and will be beneficial for them in many ways.. I vote to let them have their outing.

jhankins - that is what our council is proposing. The two weeks of NYLT, old style and new style.. But, they have to get the staff for the new style NYLT. But, after a while, I can see the new style competing for those Boy Scouts who would have gone to the old style had it been the only one offered.. Competition for the same customer.. I am unsure our Mr. moneybags will be happy if the new style wins over.. But, since he has a very zelous well trained seasoned staff, I suspect the new style with the new unseasoned staff will take a few years to give him a run for his money.. Edited to add : I am unsure if in this guys mind he is anti female or anti Venturing program.. He is anti something, but it may not be sexual discrimination if he will not welcome any Venture / Explorer male or female..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

BP while I agree that the biggest / fattest donations are from people who use it for a write-off and could care less about the program.. There are the middle size donators that the local council counts on, and some are similar, and just write a check, while others are involved in the program, and use the donations to have a local pull.. I might only have one example, but I can not believe it is the only example out there. We have a businessman who donates generously. He has been a SM for years, and heads our NYLT program. At a council Training program it was discussed that we should not be running the old NYLT that is for Boy Scouts only. But the new NYLT For BS, Venturers and Explorers.. Our council will not change the current NYLT, and our philanthropist will not accept the change. So in our council the old NYLT is still being run. It was suggested that the Venturers & Explorers train up and run their own program.. (If the parallel program starts interesting Boy Scouts and they start attending it rather then the old program (It will be in competition), I do not know how our council will react to keep everyone happy.) This example is what I was thinking about when I said some large donators, if they have an interest to do so, will see themselves as the customer, and use the donation to influence the program.. I would imagine that the one really fronting the money for the 'STEM-NOVA award be that Rex Tillerson or whoever may want input into the requirements for the award. Probably nothing else unless he has a grandchild, and wants to make waves. The bigger philanthropists I have a hard time imagining as a SM or district volunteer, and thus having real intrest in the program.. It is the middle level philanthropist that may want the influence locally.

We had this topic floating around last week.. I am posting the link to it. Between the men-folk who where pouting about the way of the world, and blaming BSA corporate administration, there are some good suggestions. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=311214#id_311350

You had missing strawberrys Too !!! I don't think anyone is beating you up too bad.. It is always wonderful to have hindsight from us armchair warriors.. But, none of us are perfect, and we all have our share of mistakes in the field.. Yeah the talk in private would only be if you give the person who took it time to come forward.. I would also not recommend calling him a theif until you hear the story.. The branding of theif before they are even allowed to explain might give them pause.. Just that you are highly disappointed. You are feeling a lack of trust, due to the issue.. And you would like the one who did the deed to come forward. Let them have the option to explain before labeling thievery.. Though it does sound like things were well explained, unlike my example of the Adult training, where being new I had to admit to myself, I did not foresee the adults looking at my equipment as community property.. Next time I plan to outline that I expected them to all bring the items they need (they do know what is being cooked..) That I am open to borrowing from me if they forgot an item or two, but would like them to approach me and ask, so I know what to chase down, and who has borrowed the item..

MarkF.. Welcome! Sort of tagging on to Seattles questions - You said "my first year as a Bear den leader is coming to a close." and "useful for the next group of scouts" I may be wrong, but it sounds like you are not moving through the ranks as the Den leader for your son and the others in his den.. Rather you are planning to release your Bear Den to someone else for Webelos, and pick up on a new set of Bears.. Not bad, but it is rare as most adults are enjoying the expirence with their sons, so want to go through the program with them, climbing the ranks as they climb.. If your program is set up different, I'd love to hear more about it..

True - skeptic. I was once told that by a DE. So sometimes they don't want them. Yet, at other times I know I have heard DE's say that they do want them active.. Maybe it is different DE's, Maybe it depends on what they want them active or not active in. I don't know how the COR video training is, but I know for the COR's who take the training in person, our council did open their eyes to the power they have (or some of the power they have). Our old COR (who knew her power) passed away.. After about 1 1/2 years of drifting, someone who was a parent & committee member in our troop took the position. At the time she took it, we were all freightened as she is known to take a bone, and dig in and smash through everything leaving destruction in her path. Good heart, but if on the wrong path that she thinks as right, she had tunnel vision.. Well she went to the "in person" council COR training, My husband and I were taking other training at the same time.. We met up afterwards and she was just bug eyed and stated.. "Wow, I didn't know I had so much power!!!".. At the time we thought "Oh, no! Here it comes!".. (Not sure how come she did not know the power of the COR, our last COR, used her power and we learned from watching her in action the true power of an active COR..) To her credit though I think with her kids out of the program, and maybe a little bit of us slapping her down over the years (sometimes not kindly, because you just couldn't hear the soft mellow friendly like "No" when you are being a freight train in action).. She has honestly mellowed out.. She will take the power when she needs to, but not often. So, far from what I hear, she is being fair minded, and just recently listened and took notes of everyones views of the program, and weighed everyone insights and is now ready to make some much needed leadership changes, (I know last year she was reluctant to make, these very same changes when others asked her to.). So, rather then just barrelling in and doing things her way, she is doing a good job. Just wondering, if the mandated training will open the eyes of other COR's..

Some large donors might see themselves as the customers, if they have anything making them want to have input into the regulating of the program. Some CO's/COR's may see themselves as the customers, if they take an active interest.. But those COR's that don't take an interest, probably don't see themselves as the customer.. They were probably asked by someone wanting to start a unit, and saw it as more as a public service to their community, or Public Relations for their buisness. They probably think being the customer for BSA is similar to telling them that if their company does and "Adopt a Road" project, they are the customers for the Highway Department. I am pretty sure the COR training is something the mandiatory training with encompass in a few years after the direct leadership, and direct-contact leadership mandate years pass. It will be interesting to see what changes will happen with the COR's & CO's once the COR's are required to take the training. Will they become more actively involved ? Time will tell.. We have a CO that knows their power, but I went all through cub scouts & about 2 1/2 years of troop with my son with our CO's not knowing.. Although the pack's CO was open to donating other things we may have needed, like camperships.

I agree, the allowing the SPL & PL's deal with it would have been preferable. You might do so when it is the loss of scout stuff.. But, it may be more so important with the loss of adult stuff.. That way those doleing out the consequences, are not seen as reacting harsher to it because of whose stuff it is. But, if you do hand it over the the scouts, you may have to set up guidelines about what is and isn't a correct reaction punishment, as you don't want them following the example set on this trip, and have the troop doing hours of excercise in 90 degree weather because Johnny's towel went missing, only to have Johnny find out he forgot his towel in the shower house and it is sitting in the camps lost & found. Not that you were this severe, but kids have a way of seeing what you think of as correct action and enhancing upon it..

I am sure someone will copy/paste the exact G2SS wording on the issue, but up to about a month ago, a patrol camping on their own was fine. Recent change is that a patrol can do day activities, but not overnight activities on their own.. That lead to a discussion of how close the leadership had to be.. I know that unless pack family camping was very active and all the Webelos were in attendance to those, then backyard tenting is encouraged for Webelos cub scouts as their first outing to shake out the problems of not packing right, or having the cutsie kiddie sleeping bag which will keep you warm in an 65 degree house only.. I don't think it is against rules that boys scouts do backyard tenting, just isn't encouraged.. But, then what is a backyard? We have an uncle who just bought a mansion up on a hill with at least 100 acres of forest around him.. I said to my husband, can we take the boys camping in his backyard (Several states away though, so it would be rare we could do so). Someone owning a home with 5+ acres of wooded lands, could run a respectable backyard camping trip for boy scouts too.. A month ago I would not have sweated an urban backyard with a patrol though, even if the patrol is not cohesive and working as a well oiled patrol, as this may have created some much needed bonding for the patrol to start acting like a team. But, for the type of overnights a patrol was known to do.. I would have said to work with your new SM & your whole troop as it sounded like your troop has a lot of work to repair the damage of a not so good exiting SM, so chances are your patrols need alot of work, in order to get them functioning to the point that sending them off into the woods on their own with no adult supervision, would be viewed as responsible.. Now since you can not do patrol overnight, your work is to get your patrols to function well enough to do day hikes and bike rides without it raising concern with the adults, or for them to be able to camp yards away from the adult leadership.

I agree with Seattle. I think this might be your seeing red trigger, where if you can step back and analyze the situation before reacting, you may see different.. I am this way about lying. You can lose my trust and respect for a lie, I can blow up similar to you.. Sometimes when I step back I realize I might have over reacted.. Especially if it is pointed out it was a mis-understanding rather then an out-and-out lie. Or it was more seen by the liar as a white lie to smooth over a bad situation or make me feel better, and they were trying to help, but the lie blew up in their face.. At this point no one will step up as they would be to afraid to. If others know who did it, they have formed a protective group, Us against Them. Loosing that cohesiveness with your boys is not worth it for two cans of soda.. Look at the whole picture.. Yes, if it is important it is something to make your point about, and let them know you were disappointed and then drop.. The extra exercise, early bedtime, and all the rest, I think was over the top. Because while you were driving home the point about stealing you were losing the close relationship with your boys, they lost trust in you being able to respond and react fairly. This is definitely not the type of relationship you want with your boys, and you may need to do some relationship fixing.. I know you thought of the soda as your property and thus this was stealing. But this could be a misunderstanding, where the boys saw it as the evening group dessert and helped themselves to the leftover ingredients, not realizing a second dessert was being made. I had the exact same thing happen at an adult IOLS. We made bubble-up chicken stew with 7-up.. Soda disappeared after the meal was made.. I too didnt need it all, but I did need two extra cans, for something, and was happy they didnt take it all.. I just made mention that I needed these two cans, so please to not take anymore. Also my personal utensils were borrowed without asking when some patrols came up short. I got most the utensils back by running around and looking for them and asking who might have this or that.. But lost a much loved paring knife.. Do I think someone stole it. No.. But someone went home to find a nice paring knife in their equipment, and just never emailed me to tell me they found it. I now know to bring only my crappy kitchen utensils.. Flea market shopping, for camp utensils.. Yes, it was my property, but in the eyes of the adults participants, I guess since I was running the training, my equipment became public property.. Mis-understanding.. Something like this could be what happened in your case, but the boys who did the deed, may now be too frightened to speak up. You made your point, though. I doubt your stuff will be taken again, until there are enough newbies in the troop, that dont know the story..

We do a few things you state, but not all.. Maybe our central coordinator is our active COR, who goes to our committee meetings and makes sure our scout sunday, crossovers, shared shed cleanup are coordinated. She goes to all the committee meetings and passes on any info from the other units effecting us.. When our COR passed away a few years back, there was about 2 years of a COR on paper only, and the coordination between the units did fall apart.. Now it is running well with a new COR in place. If you put together a committee, I would suggest something very loose, like 3 people of the different units, agreeing to discuss coordinations about every quarter (or when needed).. Or going to one of the committee meetings (on occasion when needed, like just before crossover or your group campout) to pass & recieve info, and then bring the info back to their committee.. Rather then having something meeting every month on an official copacity.. I just can't see the between unit communication needing that sort of structure. Let your official unit committees run seperatly as is. I know our commitee runs longer then we'd like when doing one units buisness, I would hate to see it stretched out to deal with 3 different units buisness..

5YrScouter - I volunteer your backpack, to drag all that.. also, make sure the nearest tree has a working eletrical outlet.

JoeBob - We will let you have a candle for your flags.. Hmm.. The cathole campfire.. I got yelled at for putting a spirel stake in the ground, due to it not being allowed for LNT.. As long as you twist it in & twist it out. It left no marks.. the carrying out of your human waste is due to they don't want you digging cat holes.. So, nope, the cat hole fire, and replacing the top soil after will not make your LNT'ers happy... So if in the backwoods, you have local wood in the deadwood aplenty, and no established campfire ring.. At a camporee, you may bring raised firepits, but no wood, and where we camp, there normally is not much wood to scrounge out.. Summer camp forests get picked over real fast.. Unless you live in the same county as the Summer camp.. no bringing wood from home.. So you can try to go on the first week of camp..I agree nothing will replace the campfire.. You can buy a bundle of kiln dried wood and take that any where (very small, very expensive).. If you are camping near a public campsite, some enterprising home sell a small bundle for $5 - $10.. Normally comes out to a buck a log. (Although there was one spot I found that I felt was giving you your moneys worth..) You can have a charcoal fire in your raised fire pit, or established campfire ring. The natural campfire is the best, but.. I think slowly we will see less (or at least smaller campfires that don't burn as long as in the past...) But, I don't think this is BSA rules killing this off, unless you feel BSA should not pay attention to the LNT nation wide established rules, that will be listed on the permits you obtain from the State or land owners whose land you are using.. Or that BSA administrative geeks were out the past few years infesting the woods with plant killing insects that burrow into the wood (Just to ruin our campfires..) Or that maybe these same BSA administrative geeks are doing the anti-rain dance which is causing the lack of rain, and fire bans.. Darn those administrative geeks!!! Really I don't think the same guys that thrusted the EDGE system onto us, are the same ones that are making our campfires harder to come by.. Unless you can blame them for expecting us BSA folks to follow the laws of your state, and those who own the land that you are hiking and camping on.. Darn those administrative geeks!!! Star gazing sounds good on a non-cloudy night.. But I am unsure about the lasers, someone in this thread said they are outlawed.. Games are good too, but don't know if you get the same bonding, and you may tucker the kids out, not sure about slowly winding them down.. I do not think that staying home and pouting if you go somewhere with no campfire, is the most mature thing to do.. Doesn't teach our scouts how to live in todays world, and work around the changing rules and laws due to the fact we humans are really making a mess of this planet.. Whatever LNT rules we face, Whatever state rules we face due to this planet being messed up, it is only going to be worse as they grow up. Do you really want to teach them that the solution is to give up & stay home??

The LED itself? No.. But put into a bottle of water, I can imagine the water would give it some irridescent glow.. Have yet to try it, so it is just my immagination.. True magic of a flame? no.. And on a cold evening.. Warmth?? No.. Candles (more then one) would be good, if the wind isn't strong.. One to replace a campfire, would be very sad. Watching 8 or more guys huddled around one itty bitty candle..

So on the other thread there is mention that the draughts, the rules banning the transport of fire wood, and the LNT are all slowly killing the tradition of the campfire.. My LNT course gave an alternative to the campfire.. No warmth, I don't think it would have the magic of the open flames.. but it sounds interesting.. I guess those small led things you can put on key rings are waterproof. Because they say they put those into their plastic water bottles and use those for the camp fire.. I can see that haveing an erie glow of the light in the water, especially if some of the bottles have different colors. (My LED keyring light you have to keep pressing the switch. take thumb of and light dies.. Need to find right little light.. And have everyone else buy right little light.) Do other people have ideas for some alternatives to the campfire?? Something that will help keep the evening bonding still going whether your unit just huddled and talked, or did stories, songs, skits whatever..

Well if OakTree is right that kills what I was going to add.. We have camporees now that don't allow any fires, but more often, just allow the raised fire, and most troops in our area has something (most craftily self concocted, rather then store bought) to do a raised fire. Cooking many times has been done in that for many troops.. But our state just changed the traveling wood, from being allowed to transport NH wood not out of state.. To only allowed to transport it within the same county.. (You really have to depend on the honesty of people to enforce this rule.).. But, since BS are honest. I trust we will follow it. But.. it will effect the open campfires alot more so then the "raised fires only" rule did.. I see campfires becoming less prominent at the camporees. The change to it being a breakfast or lunch for yourself, I have no problem with.. I don't see this as not having to eat it. If no one eats it, then it really isn't a meal, it is just cooking. To have it be breakfast or lunch, someone has to eat it (around morning or noontime).. But, why can't they prepare and cook it for the whole patrol rather then just for themselves and it count? I guess cooking for yourself is natural enough if you are backpacking.. But, a long time ago but I remember my son preping a meal to cook for himself, while the patrol was going to cook something else.. He needed the sign off, the rest did not. I thought it kind of odd.. So if you pair the idea of cooking for yourself with backpacking, and the open fire.. How many troops create an open fire while backpacking. Can't drag along something for a raised fire. LNT means don't create a new campfire ring, and hopefully you will find few old campfires left by others..

I was thinking of the urinating on the path. I would imagine you must set up someone on the path out of sight on either end if you want to do this.. I just have the image of having my husband or son having the troop go ahead of them, whipping it out, and having some family with little girls come along on the path around the curve and see this guy in boy scout uniform exposing himself on the path. Now, try explaining this to the Scout Excutive, who is ready to bar you from scouting for life. You are no pervert, just following LNT..

Seattle - You forgot the Punch line, I opened this tread expecting to see it.. APRIL FOOL'S!!! So, since the girls can't stand the program because it's boring with no adventurous stuff, how would they attract the boys? Simply by stating "We've got girls!!".. For girls it would be cool to say "I've joined the boy scouts".. What boy would be willing to say "I've joined the Girl Scouts". (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Basement - Know the old saying "Takes one to know one".. Well I have had my moronic molments. Therefore, I'm qualified to point out others who are perpetulently moronic, or have had a moronic molment or two themselves..

Sorry to hear about this episode.. The fact that a fight broke out is wrong, but can happen when ever you put boys together.. (Worse when you put adults together as we can have worse fights, though maybe fewer are physical.. And don't get me started when it is girls.. (Not being sexist, just I am female raised with 2 sisters)).. Problem seems to be how your troop leaders handled it, and it was obviously not to your satisfaction. I understand completely.. When visiting troops when my son was a Webelos, one troop ended up in an ice fight, where my son was hit with ice which cut his eye.. We did not join that troop, not due to the fight itself, but due to the lack of any sort of discipline for the older scouts throwing the ice at the cub scouts as a form of a game. Without disciplining properly, you knew that type of action would happen again, as the boys saw nothing wrong with what they did. The first troop we joined, had a picking system.. They get in about 40 crossovers from 3 different troops, chose there 10 top picks, and harassed the other scouts out.. Our son was not in the chosen group. We moved to a different troop before their treatment of him soured him to scouting.. My son though does have both parents.. Still we have hit problems similar to what you described.. Neither was due to the mens club.. Why?? If all over the country this type of treatment is only doled out to sons raised by a single mother?? Answer is.. There is moron leadership in the BSA.. And from this forum I have learned that these morons could be a group of morons, or a single moron who is loud and obnoxious and makes life miserable for everyone when they dont get their way.. But, for every one unit that has poor Leadership there are at least 2 with great leadership, adults that are enjoying empowering the youth (and to empower the youth they know they cannot equally empower themselves).. .. The majority try their best to provide the program that the BSA intended. Therefore due to one bad unit, stating that all the units in BSA are the same, is not a very fair statement. We found a troop that my son loved, and he is still involved as an adult leader at 20 years old. Had we pointed to one bad incident, no two bad incidents and gave up, we would have never found a Troop my son absolutely loved. Most units welcome the single parent children. Many mothers raising sons on their own look to the BSA as a place they can get the father role model they are unable to provide. Many single family fathers want quality time with their kids, unplugged from the electronics.. More than half of our troop has boys of single parent homes, the majority of those being the mother as the parent.. I think our troop is not unusual with this type of makeup.. Therefore, although our single mothers rarely take up the camping part of the program, we welcome them when they do, and they are the majority on our Committees, and their sons make up the majority of the youth in our troops.. For all our troops to be discriminating against our majority population would # 1 be self defeating and #2 would have our Committee members come together as a majority and stomp on the unfair practices.. With units you just have to shop around, sometimes it is to just find the unit that has the activities you want, and sometimes it is to find the scouts and adult leaders that hold your values, and are offering the best scout program they possibly can.. If you walk away from everything based on one bad expirence, you (and your son) will be starting and walking away from lots of things.. What will happen when you put your son in baseball or football, and the boys who are the team favorites do something to make sure the rookies understand they are top dog.. Or the father of one of the boys in the team, argues and fights to get more playing time for their son?? Unfortunately morons are everywhere in the world.. They have infiltrated all our youth organizations, as well as our work places, schools and neighborhoods.. It has little to do with you being a single mother, although some morons, may make it their issue.. Really single parents are so common these days, few discrimate against them any more. I say this being raise by my mother in a broken home in the 60's when children of divorce were discriminated against. By the 70's & 80's while in high school & college, I watched the attitude toward divorced women and their children change.. Now adays, marriages that don't end in divorce is in the minority. Widows (like yourself) even in the 60's were never discriminated against.. People have always reached out to these single mothers and fathers..