moosetracker

skeptic.. Personally I think alot needs to be said in Basement's situation.. A youth should have fun.. The volunteers though should not be forced to swim through quicksand and spend (as much of) their own personal funds in order to give their kids that fun.. If the District can not be of service to a unit in providing some of the program, due to not having enough volunteers to provide some of the program.. Then they should step out of the way of the volunteers that provide it at the unit level rather then stand in their way, and put up roadblocks and other barriers.. I appreciate my Council and district and the services they provide.. People like Basement who suffer under a poor district (be it the paid district staff, or the district level volunteers), give me the opportunity to appreciate my Council/district even more, and not that them for granted.. Basement - Your District/Council does not deserve FOS from you, they are not your friends, you are not theirs... They don't like you, you don't like them, and they are definately not supporting the program you provide your scouts.. But... you have to understand that not all of us have Councils/District that are run as yours do.. Let us hope I am correct in saying very few of us do. So when you go off on a rant, don't be surprise to find that people look at you as you are just a complainer, who wants to play victim and that you are the probably the troublemaker.. (Which I do believe some (not all) is due to your now negitive attitude.. But, I don't think your started out with a negitive attitude, you developed it over time while seeing some of the crap.. But regardless you and your districts relationship are on a self defeating downward spiral..) Everyone else - If your District/Council is run way better then Basement, then they deserve your support during FOS. If you can afford it, you should donate what you are comfortable with.

If you bring it up once then it would be bad manners to bring it up again.. I don't agree it would be bad manners to bring up the subject once, in a helpful manner of letting them know that as a person who needs to set an good example this does not. We do it to our adult leaders all the time.. It is taken as a helpful friendly reminder that you have to set a good example and are not.. Our young adult leaders need to be reminded of what they put on facebook, and that the younger scouts are reading their face book.. The kids can see you smoking over in this spot.. Your jokes are getting a little off color and the scouts can hear you.. This to me would fall into the same helpful reminder if done in the right way. edited to say : if someone called management on me, or reported my action to the COR or CC or someone of a higher authority before giving me a "helpful reminder", and allowing me to correct my actions then I would see that as a slap in the face, and very bad manners.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Glad that the original problem was solved so easily.. As to the other one.. I don't think you are out of line at all.. I also don't think it would be out of line to make a comment.. Similar to this one, calmly and rationally.. The Cubmaster SHOULD be setting a good example, and this is a pet peeve of mine too when I see someone who has no disability park in a handicap place.. If they have a handicap sticker, I try to tell myself that it could be an ailment not visibly noticiable, but when a 20ish year old jumps out and dashes up to the store.. It is very, very hard not to think he is abusing a handicap sticker that is for his parents or grandparents.. It does cause people to think poorly of the person who abuses a system meant for those less fortunate then you.. Now if you want to park in the VIP's parking space.. Go ahead.. Be my guest..

Ok.. If you had to guide people with a speel about the outdoor activity pins what are the highlights you would hit upon, with the cool ideas or beware of these pitfalls. I am running an OWLS training.. All my trainers are more IOLS, with a sprinkle of pre-webelos Leaders.. So it falls to me to do this speel.. I did go to an hour long course at Scouting U and got a few ideas.. I am planning to open it up to discussion in the hopes that others in the group have already tackeled or planned out a few.. But, any help I can get, seeing I am not coming at this with memories of when my son did them.. (were they even around in the 90's) I just don't recall my den doing anything outdoorsy, yet we did earn the Webelos badge.. I remember just before crossover, being shocked to find the pack owned tents for Webelos den camping.. I did not even know the Webelos could camp.. I looked at our Webelos leader, and all he said was he wasn't much for camping.. The next year in the troop our ex-Webelos Leader and his son got the backpacking bug, buying expensive ultra light equipment for it..

Basement can relay the story better, but actually Basement did plan it and promote it, because his district would not. His district people then passed word along that he was running an unapproved event, and that the other units should not attend it.. And you can't have too many events if you don't have any.. a District run Pinewood derby is a classic event.. it is like saying someone who celebrates Christmas will celebrate a holiday every day of the week..

Also try some Adult Clubs, Veterin's, Lion's, Elks, Mason's..

Basement - You would think.. huh?.. Simple there are about 3 computer systems in Scouting. None talk to the other, or if they do, they do so poorly. That is why alot of the YPT training dates had to be hand entered even if you did it on-line, and the MyScouting had your training recorded.. Maybe some day BSA will develop a working all encompassing computer system.. We can only dream.. Although I personally like our registrar, so I hope they don't make his job obsolete, just something he can manage. PS. our council is pushing the on-line, about half do My-Scouting, 40% do TroopMaster printout (not sure if that becomes on-line somehow).. and 10% still do their own paper thing.. The Eagle board does paper, but, I don't see them changing. These scouts are not all from their unit.. (Husband get the paperforms, and I get the privilige of hand entering all of them again for our District, because our system can not give the info to me in Excel, and cannot do percentage analysis on unit advancement.. It is something they wish to track, as one of many indicators of a unit in trouble.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Basement - I think you cross posted with Eagle92, look above your last post to read his, I think he explained the functions of a DE better then I.. I only see parts of it, he is living the nightm... uuhh .. dream job PS. I just purchased my own projectors too. some used models.. We tested them out for someone who got a whole mess of them from buying a lot of office equipment.. She was more into the furnature, but we tested them out.. Majority had problems.. But then picked out 3 and got them real cheap.. One I gave to my son, two I kept for me.. The projectors loans were nice, but they only have 2 for the whole council to loan, (others for district buisness) Sometimes they were all out on loan. Also one time, one was not acting right and I was worring about it for the whole training.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Doc-Meyer - Ignoring an individule, for an attitude, I can understand.. But a district that does the following: 1) not only refuse to organize a District Pinewood derby, but denys anyone the ability to orgainize a Pinewood derby for the District.. 2) Not fixing the camps to have running water, and swimming. 3) Not organizing things like Chuckwagons, or Camporees or any type of program for the scouts.. 4) This one individual but still.. Telling you, that you are not allowed to volunteer you skills at district level because you have not taken woodbadge, then after you take woodbadge for the sole purpose of being able to service your district telling you to your face you still are not allowed to offer your services to the district.. (Yes and some of it may be due to Basement opinion of them.. But, still they could have told him that up front, rather then promise him something to get to go to woodbadge and spend money and time at it, and then tell him to his face, it will not count) These are a few things I have known Basement to have to deal with. So would you say they are not offering all the scouts of the district/council a good program to get back at Basement personally, or are they angry at everyone in the district?? Besides Basement, who is showing an bad attitude? The only two to speak are BS-87 & I.. BS is 100% pro Council.. I am 90% pro Council.. What is wrong with our attitudes that Council should ignore us.. Surely you can not consider it a bad attitude to see that although your council does alot, the people are only human, and are not always perfect.. And be able to acknowledge that there are just a few bad apples in the bunch..

BS-87.. If you are talking about Basement's council as highly functional.. I doubt it.. There are also Councils and/or districts that are not doing what they are suppose to be.. Well, or not well.. I truely do believe that Basement, does have a problem council & district.. I do feel for him. I have heard from others who also have problems.. I am also not that Naive to think that everyone in my council is picture perfect.. We had another DE when I started, and I walked into my first district meeting where there was a civil war going on between paid professionals & volenteers that was not pretty.. That DE got move to another district before my 2nd district Committee meeting. I hope he learned from his mistakes in ours, but you never know.. But, Basement does have a tendency to view his Council as if it is the way all our councils run.. That we should all be as upset with the service we get from our Council staff.. I may have been singing with Basement, had the DE not been moved.. More likely, I would have just left the District position by now.. What I tried to make Basement see is that there are districts and Councils that have flaws as anyone and anything, but overall, they work hard to provide us the support we need to run a good program.. So anyway, BS-87 - you did bring to mind some other things our DE is currently doing.. We have a few vacant position.. Membership,& Finance committees mainly.. So who do you think is filling the roles that should be performed by volunteers.. If the volunteers are not doing it, and the DE wants his district to succeed especially in two areas they look at for his performance evaluation.. I will give you one guess who is doing those vacant jobs.. Our DE.. Another person on staff that has been helpful to me.. The person who does summer camps. I dealt alot with her on the unit level organizing our scouts for summer camp, get the money into her, getting the scout count right & the money.. Figuring out strange requirements for the year.. Now I am back to dealing with her sometimes if I book my IOLS or OWLS training at one of our camps.. There is a lady that I can rent out projectors and other equipment needed for training. So Basement, yes the staff at the Council office has benifited by unit by the work they do, or by helping me offer training to the leaders in my units of my district, they are helping the individual units, although those who take my course may never know what service they provided in order to bring the training to them.

I know I as a district volunteer rely on my DE for all sorts of things. For training it is getting me projectors, and today I ran over a whole bunch of copies for him to run off for an upcomming training.. Last night I emailed him 3 times.. On the 3rd time at 10:30 at night he emailed me back and said "They only pay me enough to talk to you two times per day".. I sent him a whole list of things for them to do for me.. Inquire about this or that, cut me a refund check for a training I had already had and given him the reciepts for.. Copies of things that I also needed copies for, for the upcoming training that the council only has the paperwork for.. One training is BALOO.. I need the councils most current list of acceptable sites for Pack camping (some other one, can't remember..).. I am constantly asking him for Excel updates of the computer data from the council Computer systems.. Outside what he does for me, I know he does the following: Recruiting he will get what you need to have a successful recruiting night. Our district is looking for a Popcorn chair.. I have a college student in mind, asked if he had to transport popcorn from unit to unit.. (Our district is a lot of distance, and college students can't afford the gas.) Answer was NO.. I am traveling all over our district all the time.. If anyone needs popcorn delivered, I will do it.. Husband does Advancement. He had the task of the District Awards dinner. Who he found a restraunt chef to oversee.. But the chef has anxiety problems (yes I know, not the right field for that).. Both my husband and the DE were constantly on the phone with the guy for about a month before the event, up to the day of the event.. If I had time I could list more.. Our Council Registrar is still hard at work event with the on-line Advancement system.. The Rechartering has to be hand keyed in.. The YPT training was a royal mess.. Hundreds of proofs they had the training, but not in the system.. All had to be hand fixed.. The merit badge counsilors.. This software is a royal headache, as he can enter stuff in, and delete old MBC's out.. Next day have the system readjusted itself bringing back in the old MBC's and deleting out the new ones he just entered.. Our Front desk receptionist is a peach.. I constantly talk to her for information.. Our Accounting clerk, is always quick to process the money correctly for my trainings, and for anything I am paying for.. Giving me extra reciepts of proof, and typing extra notes on the reciepts.. I could go on, but I have to get going.

I was struck by this comment.. And then like someone said, leaders have to pay for membership, training and even to volunteer at events, leaders have to pay. Where does it stop. It is either ask the volunteers to pay their way, or hike up the participants fee to cover themselves and their trainers fee. If we hike up the fee so the participants carry them, there will be grumbling about that.. Just got asked to be on WoodBadge staff, I was all excited.. Then was surprised by the $83 dollar charge to attend and work my ass off as a scribe.. I have no trouble paying it, just thought the higher cost of the WB did account for the staffs food.. If I didn't pay for my meals here, I would pay for them at home.. This also covers meals for a Staff weekend, and my being at the course for 2 more days longer then the participants for setup and staff training.. $83 for 10 days of meals seems like a bargin really.. Oh yeah.. And I get a T-shirt too! and one extra bead! All for $83 bucks.. Yeah we worker bees need to eat too..

On a side note to this topic: I was just organizing a Venturing Specific Course.. I got two Advisors from our two most successful Venturing Crews willing to organize it.. One is a high school Teacher who has a Venturing Crew of about 1.5 years with over 25 youth involved.. The other has been a Venturing Advisor from it's inception, very knowledgable, crew is a decent size (about 12).. I am happier the a pig in mud.. Then the "seasoned" Advisor seems to be killing off my other advisor by putting all these training stipulations to being able to teach this course.. Needs EDGE. Needs PowderHorn. Needs to have taken the course. Some other easy to come by on-line courses I am sure my other trainer has, but I am unsure about the three I have mentioned.. Well EDGE I have been told repeatedly is only needed for WoodBadge & NYLT staff.. Powderhorn ?? REALLY!! We don't require Woodbadge for any of our other District Trainers.. So why Powderhorn for this.. It would make sense that to have taken the course, but even here.. While staffing other things the other district trainers tell me to staff with Trainers who need to take the course themselves. Then they just add their name to the list at the conclusion of the course.. I sent off an email to my Council Training Chair with the list.. And stated, with only 7 Crews on district, 5 of which are failing.. If there is some sort of higher requirement to be a Venturing Trainer, then you make it impossible to fullfill your request to staff a Venturing Specifics training at the district level..

JMHawkins - FOS is a necessary evil b/c if we actually charged what it costs for scouting, few could afford it... So why are we making the FOS presentations to the families then? If they can't afford it, where do we expect the money to come from? Answer is that we are not looking at them as the sole donator, not even as the main donator.. My DE was talking about percentage of what is to come from buisnesses & what is the expected percentage from the families.. I believe it was about 25 to 30% for families.. This may be a different percentage from council to council for example it seems desertrat has the percentage from families set at 0%... But if we did expect 100% from the families then most of us couldn't afford it..

***Update #2 **** I didn't mention that I asked another clarification question because I ASSUMED with the first response you guys were totally right, but still I had to clarify, because I just had to.. I got back a surprising response!.. So now I have to share.. My seemingly stupid question.. Just one more clarification.. But I think I know the answer.. So if you are looking at say a SM.. Then the Silver level of "Specific Training" does not just mean, that they get the SM/ASM Specific training.. It means the full training for that position meaning the Fast Start, This is Scouting, YPT, SM/ASM Specifics and IOLS training.. Correct?? The surprising response that I got back!! The IOLS is not part of the requirement. The scoutmaster will be considered trained when they have completed the indoor specific training. Thanks again for your ideas.

***UPDATE*** I wrote national per the suggestion and got the following back.. Great questions. Let me try to shed some light. To your first question, the "All" in the silver level refers to all adults who are registered in the troop from Scoutmaster to assistants to members of committee to committee chair, etc. The second question refers to the training specific for their registered position. You are correct that for committee members, that would be Troop Committee Challenge. We will look at making this more clear in 2012. In the third question, we added the youth elections to this criteria because a fully trained troop committee should make sure that youth elections happen every year (you might be surprised at how many troops do not have youth elections at all). Youth elections really is an add on to this criteria, but is one of the most important parts of good troop operation. The task force wanted to make sure that troop elections was in the gold level to show its importance. Thanks for your questions and observations. We are also aiming at continuous improvement, and your suggestions will help us make this an even better program in the future. Hope this helps. I wrote back to add the following.. Yes it would help clarify it if the overall objective maybe should state that it is "Have trained and engaged Leadership." rather then "Have a trained and engaged troop committee." Also, probably a little late to swap, but the Gold level would then be more appropriate that the unit hold TLT for the youth training.. I know the TLT or something about youth training is somewhere else in the J2E.. But that would have made a more understandable overall goal for all 3 levels.. By the way, Fast Start is not tracked or even recorded in your software, I know I took it with the on-line training and it is the only thing not recorded, nor do I show a single person having taken Fast Start.. I am just forced to assume they have had Fast Start at some point.. I understand it, I was in a troop for years, at our parents presentation we played the Fast Start video, also allowed people to check it out of our library.. We never ever thought to send a record to council about the training..

Oh.. Oh.. I like the scream and bully until the kid gets it right.. You can call it the military drill training method..

Welcome, you sound like my family.. Myself, husband & son are all avid Scouters.. Son though is now 21, and we have added one more to the mix, his fiance is now also an avid scouter..

BALOO comes with no power point.. So I would just replace those pieces and utilize the new forms not the old. We did that for our Specifics Training, spent some time on the new health forms and tour planners, because it was the first they were hearing about it and they needed to be the one to bring the info back to their units.. I know you are suppose to "follow the Syllabus", but it seems insane to not update the material as it becomes outdated.. They shouldn't demand that we be unthinking puppets, and you will be corrected and loose respect if you do not change with the times while half your class is telling you that your subject matter knowledge is outdated.

Question, did this guy self-appoint himself, or did he, knowing the system, have a talk with the COR and get the COR to appoint him.. As you say, he is the only one who knows the COR, and the COR has the right to appoint these positions. Newb - While I get what the others are saying, I get what you are saying too.. Been there.. Done that.. Twice.. First time was a small new troop as you have now.. First SM was into it for his sons, when we visited it looked great, they were doing an excercise toward advancement. What we didn't realize was that it was for his son's advancement, you saw the pattern afterwards that if his sons didn't need to learn it for their advancement, then it was worth doing.. Otherwise he was great with the kids, and the activities were fun. Then he had a new job, change of SM.. The next one was worse.. Disoganized, wouldn't follow Youth protection rules -or- any rules, wouldn't get trained.. In it for his son, and they were using it as a youth club, out went anything that makes a BS troop distinctly different from any other youth club.. Move to new troop which was great for about 8 years, but of the last 2.5 years we have someone who is trying, and wants the job, but doesn't relate well with the boys, disorganized, and basically is running a Webelos III unit. In both I was CC.. In the first I could fire the guy, but only had my husband to put in his place. I was hopeful for a moment when there was incoming crossovers, and someone perfect for SM.. But when they chose another troop, that was when I lost all hope, and we looked for a new troop.. The second one I also left after being CC.. But, that was different, I took it on temporarily for 6 months to carry them through looking for a permenant CC.. It was shortly after the disorganized SM just took position also.. The writing was on the wall, but I didn't get too emotional about the situation knowing it was a temporary thing.. My son was already 18 and an adult leader for the troop already, so the program didn't effect me personally.. And we were giving him the benefit of the doubt and letting him have time to figure things out and improve. Unfortunatly he never did and they are now looking to change things up at the next election. Husband & son have stayed in the unit, and are in emotional turmoil watching the SM turn the once great troop into a shadow of it's formal glory.. Husband mostly has supported the SM, and tried to mop up after him, and be the buffer of the complaining adults.. But it does wear on him.. Son doesn't see why everyone needs to work two to three times harder to work around the SM, and my husband slowly is of that belief too, as he got worn down.. Point is, it is easy to create a great SM from a diamond in the rough, someone who doesn't know the position but is willing to learn and open to suggestions, and has a personality that can eventually do the job once learned.. It is hard to try to teach an old dog new tricks.. If they are unwilling to change, their personality or personal goals are not what the unit or position needs, etc.. They will drag a unit down real quick. Problem is as people have mentioned. You are a small unit.. Besides you and your wife, no other parents are really stepping up to help run this unit.. If the SM left as he has threatened, is it really a threat, or can you manage without him?.. He has successfully shang-hi'd this troop.. If he did so through the COR he did so legally, you may not have much recourse, but to look into going to a different troop. If he did not do so legally then you maybe can fight to regain control of you unit, but with such a small unit, and with not too much heart in your fellow parents, will you fledgling group survive war?? If he draggs in the COR and the COR sides with him, your battle is lost. So best know your COR's opinion in the matter before even waging war.. But, if all you need to do is fire him, and he will go to a different unit, can your unit survive without him? It will come down to it being either you leaving or him leaving.. If he is really willing to leave quietly if you fire him. But then the troop is still in trouble, if your wife & you are the only ones willing to work to get the unit off the ground with all other parents going for the ride.. When we were in the small troop, with little support from other parents. My choice was us leaving. That would probably be my choice again. The boys did not need the war of the parents, it would have just turned them off from scouting. Tell me. Why did YOU want to resurrect a new troop?? Why is that more important to you then going to an established troop??.. Is there a reason why this new troop in your opinion is better for the boys, or is it also some sort of adult agenda that is causing the drive to start up the troop.. Remember the bottom line is what is best for your son, and best for the boys as a whole.. Why is this troop suppose to be better then the troop down the street which has the SM who is expierience, has a good sized committee, has ASM's in place. Has all the equipment, has older boys that your young boys can learn and grow from their leadership.. Tell me, what makes this tiny self starting troop better?? Are you starting this troop for the boys or for the adults??.. That may be the answer to should I stay and fight, or should we move to the established troop.

NEPA - You are correct in what you say.. I think the key of what I take from pchadbo is the fact that he said the 35 is after a large crossover and some attrition which I take as meaning his percentage was based on an original much higher number.. But now he has 35 scouts.. I am unsure of which goal pchadbo was looking at Bronze, silver of Goal.. So them telling him he need to increase to 61 scouts, they may think they gave him a goal of say 10 scouts, but because of the scouts he lost at crossover, to him this is a goal of 35 scouts.. Same could be said of FOS, if your unit last year raise $2000 in FOS funds, and you loose half your unit in crossover, or the guy who gave the $1000 donation at crossover.. then putting this year's goal at $2150 would seem pretty unobtainable.. ctbailey - 12/2011..? We were told that the mandated training was pushed off a year due to the fact they can't get their act together with the computer software.. I know our registrar was buried trying to mannually fix the YPT that his computer did not have, yet people printed off the Trained certificate.. We were told the software needed to be fixed, and the BS Specifics needed to be offered on-line.. So we were given the new date of 12/2012.. CHLees3rd - Thanks for the email info..

pchadbo - don't worry too much, do the best you can.. As far as recruiting and FOS goes, they always try to increase the numbers.. You can't always and forever go up, there is a breaking point, where it must crash down, regroup, realign.. Then the following year you have a chance to make the numbers again based on what you crashed to.. Unfortunately your re-aligning of the number of youth in your organization happened on the first year of the J2E.. Our DE was complaining about the same thing happening on the FOS side.. Some of our units have been given impossible goals and can't make it because those who were the big contributions, just crossed-over in mass.. He doesn't agree with the way he has to dole out the percentages, but he is just following orders, rather then what makes logical sense.. Every now and then you have to accept you will take the hit for a year or two, go under, then come back up the following year when they re-align your goals to something more obtainable.. At least it is not all or nothing.. Pass or Fail.. Try for the Bronze, if you look hard enough you may be able to make Silver based on other items you do have control over.. Knowing you, you will have that unit improving in lots of ways when you become CC.. As the unit's program improves the youth will naturally join, and stay involved.. It will work out over time. pchadbo & I are in the same district.. So that is why we got off subject.. On subject.. pchadbo - you were most likely at the pack breakout, I got one email this morning.. Can you shed more light on the confusion you guys had as to who needs BALOO, OWLS & IOLS?? What is required, by whom, and for what it is needed for? The more insight the more I can better word the email Blast..

Enjoy it while it lasts. My son can be a great cook when he wants to be. He started out doing Sunday Breakfast every week, then got tired of it and took on a weekend dinner.. He was very good too, trying out new and different recipes.. Then turned to believing that he shouldn't have to do any of it.. I am still waiting for maturity to kick in, and the rebelious years to be over..

OK.. So All at this point means All in the troup.. Because the Objective is a trained & engaged troop Committee. So I read All as pertaining to the overall objective.. But then again.. You see Specific Training as the full training for your specific position.. So really the overall objective is totally misleading, because the object should more read.. Trained Leadership: Have everyone in your unit fully trained for thier positions. Also I guess I looked at Specific training as just the Specific training.. Committee Specific training, Cub leader Specific training, SM & ASM Specific training.. If you changed the objective, then the Gold level for youth officers would make more sense. But not really, because for a training objective this should be to conduct TLT training within your unit. Which I think is in the J2E, but not under the training objective.

Ok.. # 4 in the Journey to Excellence for Troop.. Probably same under the CS & Crew but maybe a different number.. Objective - Trained leadership: Have a trained and engaged troop committee. Bronze - Have a Scoutmaster, an assistant Scoutmaster, and a committee with at least three members. The entire committee has completed This Is Scouting, Fast Start training, and Youth Protection training or, if new leaders, within three months of joining Silver - Bronze level, plus all must have completed Leader-Specific Training or, if new leaders, within six months of joining. Gold - Silver level, plus hold youth officer elections and installation before November 15. Ok skip the Gold.. That is like something not related.. But the training.. This is all geared to committee training, correct?? Although SM & ASM is mentioned in a fly-by on the Bronze, they are not being asked to be trained, just to have someone registered for this position.. There is nothing in J2E about the SM or ASM training correct?? Just asking because, I am hosting an IOLS, some people are telling me they need the IOLS (& OWLS) this year for J2E.. I don't see it as part of the J2E at all, because the training is only looking at Committee training.. Before I blast this out to the whole district in an email listing the trainings and clearing up some of the confusion as to what you need & when you need it, I am double checking with you guys.. While we are at it .. I am correct that OWLS at this time is recommended to Webelos Den Leaders, but not Required, at this time.. I am pretty sure this was already discussed before, and it is just recommended (although some councils have made it a requirement.).. We have some confusion with this too, because our Jamboree is requiring it of the Webelos dens that camp over.. Which is their right as an Event to require, but it through up the who arguement of it not being something required.. Well an event requiring it and National requiring it are two different things.. Both are within their rights.. Tell me if my take on this is wrong.. Just double checking before I blast something in writing that is not correct.