moosetracker

I know the Pack in my home town was big (and still is today).. I don't thing we were as large as 110 scouts though.. The Pack at my time was asked to split into two units.. Never did, we objected to that suggestions due to the fact that we felt we were handling things well, and we also knew that the Pack ran in cycles and would have it's down years.. Also we dependend on our dynamic leaders and didn't want to divide them.. So I don't know if the districts can ever force a group this large to split up, but it is a possibility.. Your little group may be more comfortable in a smaller unit that is strong.. They may get more personal attention.. Then again if the den meetings are still held in their town, they may be fine with the large group. I know due to the large group we would have alot of great Pack meetings and organize some really spectacular events smaller units may not have the resources for.. So for me both sizes have thier plus & minus values, especially with a pack.. When it comes time for a troop, size is going to be personal preference of each individual boy.. Do they like the dynamics of a large troop with tons of events and opportunities to choose from? Will they feel more comfortable in a small setting where they get individual attention, and have a better opportunity to take some of the troop leadership positions. Sort of like I equate Pack to your public grade school / High school, you go to the size school the communities offers.. But you choose your college, and for each individual the size of the college may play an impact on what the choose, some prefering the small community, some the larger community..

Another question about it.. MIB was seriously going to take this on and emailed the DE about it.. But the person who did FOS is warning him because with the FOS she was constantly phoned about those units who had yet done the FOS, and that the donations were down.. She fears the same will happen with the popcorn.. He is fine with promoting it and taking and organizing the orders, He was told there was no driving around from unit to unit to deliver popcorn, and we never had anyone come to the troop to promote the selling.. So how much pressure is there for the popcorn kernal to reach a specific goal? I would imagine sales will probably be down this year, not as many people buying.. And of course the units that have already backed out of selling it due to it being over priced.

AnnL - you & I are basically in agreement. In "reality" you ARE the Pack.. If you walk, then the Pack in reality will fold.. But officially the CM is not the one to decide to disband the Pack, the one to make that decision is A) the COR B) the CC.. Now if the only person who can steer the plane parachutes out, then the reality is the plane crashes.. unless someone steps up NOW, and attempts to run it.. It is just officially you can not say "If you don't do this, I will disband the Pack.. Go elsewhere.." Because that is not your call.. It is the COR's & CC's call, and can be done when all that is left is the dysfuctional ex-CM & son, and the grandmother & her grandson.. But maybe they wont.. They can put more paper adults on the roster, and it is difficult (not impossible) to add paper scouts.. Then as long as they pay their dues the DE can turn a blind eye.. All you can say if "If you don't do this, I will leave.." then let them figure out the inevitable from that statement. First time to step up and mean buisness with the pastor.. Good luck, and stay determined and mean buisness..

Something we may have missed here.. How much is the old CM (because he did something wrong), set up to be the CC???.. If he is not the CC, then basically it is your troop, and you can rant & rave & threaten the breakup of the Pack without the help.. If he is CC, or if he becomes CC in near future.. Then the disbanding of the Pack is between him & the COR.. So you can threaten that things change or you will leave, and invite your den members to come or go as they so choose.. But I don't think you can threaten disbanding the Pack.. Not your decision to make. But if you leave, that leaves your den who had a great leader, without a leader.. Will any of them step up or follow you over?? Only you can guess and they can decide.. If you leave, that means the great dynamic CM is also gone.. Who will step up?? That leaves a bunce of packs of one or two dens that don't meet and are basically lone scouts, no one to do the Pack meetings, and a CC with two other members who want to be on paper only.. The logical thing would be to disband the Pack without you there.. But, you can not make that call if you have a CC.. So if you choose to do battle with the Pack parents in an all-or-nothing meeting, based on if you do or do not have a CC.. You may have to watch how you word things..

You are not the one that has failed this Pack.. Don't let yourself think it for one minute!.. Don't accept it from others that will accuse you of it, when they would not lift one finger to help.. It is the parents who will not step up to the plate that have failed this pack. You have done a great job.. If you want to join a different Pack with a whole den of Bears, then you could probably stay on as their leader.. That would give you the ability to stay with your bears, you can then find a meeting place for your den meetings close to home, and it would simply be the Pack meetings, Committee meetings and events that you may need to travel to.. Unless a Pack has a Bear den with only one or two Bears yet a leader in place, it will probably be something they will be happy to talk to you about. It means adding on a good amount of kids (recruiting points for them).. With the Den Leader already recruited.. Your Den parents will more willing to migrate with you to the pack, if the commute is not every week for them.. Win/Win..

AnnL !!!!!!! I knew you had a small pack.. But you have NO ONE but YOU !!! You are the Cub Master and the Wolf Den Leader!!! So who is helping you.. No Commitee.. A Tiger leader who is not doing his job, and they are doing work at home.. No Bear Leader. A Webelos kid whose Grandma is pretty much doing a lone scout program, and you don't really want to put anyone with them, and wish they would leave.. So who does that leave??? You... and You.. and You... You are very energetic and would be a GREAT asset to a functioning Pack.. But, you can not continue to go it alone.. I would love to see people with your spark be some place where you can put your talents to the best, and be rejuvinated by the other adults in the program that you can start to establish friendships, and mutual interests and values with..

Welcome, I agree, with this is the best training.. I think because people here will tell you what BSA does not want you to know.. They also have the time to discuss your specific problems, where as in a class environment, you can only spend so long on personal specific issues or you wont finish the course in a timely manner.. But, you learn alot be looking at the problem solving of the issues.

That's what I was thinking, I hope she improves, but if it takes a while, they may not be back for a while, then once they stop coming, and the cycle is broken, just never return.. Of course, that is usually what happens with the good ones, the ones you want to keep.. Normally you are not so lucky with the problem ones.

Beav - I don't know if I would call "Mother-Bear" protective mode prejudice.. I agree there is a lot of good reason to let the rule be anyone of adult age, instead of 21 with exceptions if the troop can show just cause for an 18 to 21 yo.. I agree the kids have the skills, and some may have the experience and skills to deal with parents who are either treating them unfairly due to their age, or will treat everyone and everything unfairly to give their precious the unfair edge over everyone else.. I can even name a part time job that my son had at 18 that he was treated unfairly.. Let's say he wasn't the winner of that, but got a lot of experience from it, enough so I can say he has seen the evil's of the adult world.. The working world is life, so learn to deal.. Still I will be Mother-Bear, and believe the BSA's mission is all about empowering the boys and the young adults.. They are not about using, abusing, or taking advantage of a situation with young people who will thrill at the chance of being given the opportunity and grab it. Therefore I will cling to my belief that if a SM or CC under 21 is wanted by a unit, the district should have a right to assure that it is for the right reasons.. Call it prejudice if you will.. I will not even try to comment on all that has been stated (I don't have the time to write a book on the subject.) So I will just make comment to a few things that caught my eye.. KC9 - Merit Badge councilors are 18 & over.. That is something that BSA holds up as their poster child of adult association. Even though I do think more adult association is formed with the adults within their troop.. But Beav has got those arguments covered. I can tell you if the committee adults had their act together, our troop would be a good place for a young enthusiastic adult.. (18, 21, 25.. I don't care).. Over an older SM at this time.. Our ASM are all fairly new and have only run under the current SM who has taught them how to run a troop in Webeloes III mode.. The boys who have not left the troop, are either there to finish their Eagle and can't wait to finish and leave, or are just following the SM without any enthusiasm, sort of going through the motions as if in a school class (sorry teacher/scout.) My husband has the ability to take over, but not the enthusiasm he used to, it has eroded over time having all the other adult leaders with vision and drive having left, and supporting an incompetent SM.. I think someone said that it is bad to just choose a young SM over an experienced one.. But, the troop is in need of a shot of adrenalin, and so yes the thought was to utilize the adrenalin and ambition of a young adult. Have his energy and enthusiasm wake up the boys from the comma state they are in. But I would disagree with disregarding the rules that are in place that state over 21 for SM & CC.. Yet I am fine with currently putting the 18 - 21 year olds into committee roles, as just personalizing your unit.. Call this my rational for how far down the slippery slope I will go... That is because of the lying going on with the paperwork for the recharter. If you are putting someones name on that who is truly not the SM or CC you are being dishonest.. Having ASM's doing committee functions, is done in units all the time regardless of age.. Giving SM's and or CC's, or other unregistered people a vote on the committee is also at the discretion of how a unit wants to run their committee, and is done all the time regardless of age..

KC9 - I don't fear the forum members swatting, I argue all the time with this person or that.. I fear my son & fiance swatting (Physically) because they can.. I am somewhat in agreement with them & somewhat not, because I like allowing the 18 - 21 yo to do what they can, because they learn more by expirencing rather then watching. They can do a lot on their own at 18.. But, somethings benefit from good mentors. I guess with me it is just looking at the organization as a whole. Venturing go to 21 with mentoring, but the crew gets to do similar troop positions but add on allowing them to do most of the committee work too, treasure, outdoor coordinator (Sorry I have been away from Venturing to remember all the positions, but remember it is a hodgepodge of the two.).. The arguement for SM under 18 are that they are still the youth members of the troop. They have alot of postions to learn about leadership from.. My son was not saying that 18-21 yo's leave because they can not be SM.. They leave because they are pigon hold into one position ASM.. They cannot hold any of the other positions held by adults.. Many boys may enjoy the ASM position and can jump right into the changed status, if the troop does it correctly.. Some of the boys would prefer a more "behinds the scenes" positions.. Some might feel the need to go into the committee to get a different challenge, because the drop from being a productive youth member to and ASM in which it is far more of a supportive role, and for many energtic youth this is a sit back and watch, but no longer participate position.. They get board.. These people would be better feeling very productive in the committee, and get the expierence of how to be supportive there. Then they can take this knowledge back to becomeing ASM or SM after they learn the difference between participant to becomeing supportive of the participants, and can apply it effectively.. This can be learned quickly, or take some time dependin on the individual.. Bottom line ASM is not the right fit for all the 18 - 20 yo's just as when they were youth members SPL or PL wasn't the right fit for everyone either, some prefered Quartermaster or Scribe or Historian etc.. If it is not the right fit, the youth that are not comfortable with the fit will choose to leave..

Well I have not said much for a few pages.. Part of it is, that 2 people in this debate can physically swat at me.. This argument of under 21 SM & CC for me always go personally back to the two young adults in question and our unit in question.. Though the young people are very very confident, and have exceptional skills to do alot of things.. The unit is very, very dysfunctional, and has a few people, who I think all are good at heart and are trying their best (at least I hope).. But are screwing things up royally.. There are also not enough parents and adults who should be stepping up who are stepping up, leaving the need for any warm blooded body.. I can agree with the leaving the baseline for SM & CC at 21, with an exceptional override that needs to be reviewed at the council/District level.. And maybe to a point where it is more than just reading a piece of paper.. It would require a visit.. For sure my son would be 10 times better then what we currently have for SM, if just looking at that job.. But the dysfunction of the committee, and the adult out & out wars we get into, maybe it is as a mother, but I just don't like them being a part of.. I think they learned a lot from this last go round, and some of their belief in trusting people at a base level has been lost.. Still with this go round, there were 3 adults involved in this vote thing, the decision was made, the fallout happened.. And 2 of the adults tried to get out from under by throwing one under the bus as the sole person.. The scapegoat.. I just don't trust this adult leadership. If the rest of the adult leadership is in place to support the young SM or CC, and a visit to the troop and a talk with the young person and the rest of the adult leadership finds this to be true.. Then I have no issue with the 18 t 21 SM or CC. As stated earlier, as for being on the Committee and having a vote, they age should be 18 & up there is no reason why it shouldn't be.. In fact a few years earlier we were looking a different just 21 person.. The troop was at a better time, it was just starting to go under with the current SM's influence.. My husband and the UC were in full support of him, his father and one other guy would have come back to the committee to support him, I was thinking of returning also, my son & his fianc would have supported him, he would have had 5 older adults and younger adults as a support network. The dysfunction of the rest of the adults was not so apparent.. Had this man been under 21, I would have still said great candidate.. If my son & Fianc had this adult support network around them, I would say they would be fine in these positions under 21.. If I still was not aware of how dysfunctional the other adult leaders were.. But, with the COR & CC I would be hesitant.. Don't know if a visit by a district member would see the whole thing, but they should be able to tell somewhat how well the unit is currently running by the program they put on.. There just needs to be something better then "Warm body.. We will take it.." I don't have any problem imagining a unit with a healthy sprinkling of 18 to 21 yos involved with over 21's putting on a great and healthy program by being in whatever role they are best suited to, if the program is healthy.. This is what is called continuing the mentoring process for the youth up through 21 by allowing them to associated with good role model older adults.. Like everything, they learn more by doing not watching.. But you should not throw 18 to 21 year olds into a situation where they are taking on the sole responsibility, because the rest of the troop is either in names only with no real people in the jobs, or they are totally dysfunctional changing rules and breaking promises, and offering little to no support. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

SSSScout -- Augh, BAD.. but right on course with all cub scout jokes..

Kudu - Sounds like a great trip.. I agree, you gave those scouts something special, that their Adult run troop never let them expirience.. And you even found a way to appreciate the cupcakes, for a few things. You may have planted a seed for which that unit will benefit from.

Yeah, at the time the disfunctional troop was functional.. and our surrounding area troops were disfunctional.. Now we have moved on to work on the district committee, but stayed involved in the Wannalancit district.. Bow, the next town over currently has a vey nice troop and is in Wannalancit, so from that there are a few of us district jumpers..

KC9 - You meant MIB, not Moose.. You do make some good points.. I guess all of you are kindof focused on SM.. As stated early on I am not opposed to the 21 rule for SM or CC, just the jobs on committee and other jobs capable of young adults with as much or as little guidence as necessary for that individule.. I don't know if my son really is opposed to the arguement of an 18 yo. He did not try to go for the position last year at 18 (a few weeks shy of 20).. Only at 20 (a few weeks shy of 21).. Also agree that at 21 the COR would have to look at the other adults in the troop, and the personality of the young person and figure out if there was a good support system for a young SM.. But, with that good support system, then I think the young SM can bring an energy, enthusiasm and excitement, some of us old foggies can not to the program.. But then the CC Fiance, is something we do disagree on, not because she is not capable for the most part as long as they stay relatively sane. But if the adults of the Pack get as unrational as the adults of the troop, that would be a handful, if she does not get adult guidence with the issues.. She may do fine, but it alot to ask.. I had to laugh at student/scouts comment.. But I'm almost done, sick of some of the bull that goes on with the adults, So us adults in BS are so much better then rainbow.. Right?

OK, Venturing is not a spot, my son sees shades of gray on.. But, there are many many old timers with the same fault.. As well as that opinion held for Woodbadge 21c, EDGE, how scoutcraft is changing (or the direction the scouting movement has taken in recent years..) Shall I continue.. We don't have many good Venturing Crews in our area. So the idea of what they are about, is geared to seeing untrained crew advisors or his history with our run-away train COR (old Crew advisor)... but it might do my son good to visit one of our good ones, started by one of his woodbadge patrol members. If he opened a discussing about ventureing to those Crew members, or even those who are not in that crew, but judge what ventureing is all about from that crew, he may find some positive feedback.

Roundtable is at a school, so no guns or knives allowed.. Hmmm.. Are Axes allowed??? (Not directed a Moxieman, but at those of you who are the axe-wielding murderers) Thanks alot Pchadbo.. Just wait until I return the favor..

KC9 - Don't know, I just look at what I read about the life in the mid-evil days, and the days when this country was new.. (Life is fast-paced & complex now, but life though simpler was much harsher back then.) We expected our children to take on adult responsibilities at 10-13 in mid-evil time, maybe 16-17 200-250 years back, and they did because no one thought they could not.. Now, we may give them voting rights etc.. And some may marry and leave home at 18.. But truely we don't expect our young folks to take on adult responsibilities until 21, and alot of them don't.. Call it what you want, shorter life span, harsher times, dirt poor conditions, simpiler times.. Those may be the reasons for it, but bottom line, earlier in history we expected more from our young people and they delivered.. Packsaddle - Interesting comment about the age 21 referenced in the 1947 scoutbook.. Because I was going to comment that I believe our Troops scoutmaster was under 21, he was scoutmaster for the troop for a while (in 1943), then in his early 20's he became the first camp director of our (then) new Boyscout camp.. Must have been around 1947 when we started dumbing our kids down.. (oops I mean, letting them have more time to enjoy being kids..)(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

I think by the book you have Advancement correct, units will do things differently.. My husband has been Troop Advancement for years, he is now District Advancement Chair.. Our troop allowed him to do things, that by definition could be the SM job, or the SM could delegate it to others. Don't know how long it has been since you moved out of Cub Scouts, but a change occurs for Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts.. It is not about us making it easier for the scouts, it is about how much can we empower the scouts to do for themselves.. You can look for opportunities for boys to teach other boys, and make recommendations, but your recommendations would go to the Scoutmaster at a committee meeting, to which he should take it to the boys at a PLC meeting for their vote.. You should take note at meetings of skills that are getting rusty, and need reinforcement, or what skills may be needed in the next camporee.. Again same route, to suggest through committee.. You should keep an eye on boys not advancing and put them through a board, although they do not need one.. Is he content not to advance?.. Is he getting tired of Boy Scouts, if so what can the troop change?.. Is he in need of some guidence.. If so, what can you think of that is more Boy Lead guidence to help him.. Make suggestions through the committee, to the SM, to the PLC.. Your troop may be less formal, you may be able to cut out the committee, and bring it to the attention of the SM between meetings.. You should be able to figure out protocol by how others in the committee work with the SM.. Bottom line, don't do for the boys what they can do for themselves.. And don't go directly to the boys with changes to their program..

I agree with Beavah and add on to say the expectations of the general population can cause a certain percentage of the people of this group to act the way you expect them to. If a black person grows up with enough people telling him that he will not amount to much, some will rise above that and prove you wrong, but many will not try to rise above that expectation. Many of these could have strived harder and have succeeded if they had people telling them it was expected that they succeed. As a generality, the young people of today and the young people of yesterday have shifted.. It is kind-of a weird shift.. The young people of today are not as naive, more book smart, and in some ways are more mature and in other ways are not.. Hard to put your finger on, but personal responsibility I feel in the average young adult has lowered.. The ability to take on a job and work hard to take pride in the job you do, rather then just expect a pay check and try to find ways to get out of really doing the work for it.. They marry at an older age (which in itself isn't a bad thing), but still many marraiges don't last.. They move out of the house at an older age (which was the trend even before the economic crunch..) You all can argue with it, but where did the shift come from, if not from the parents and older folks feeling they were not ready to take on that responsibility.. What we have discussed before, where we don't will argue that the teachers should not fail them on their tests, or they can't stand at a school bus stop with 4 other kids but we have to stand by, or have them sit in our car.. We must pay for everything for them until 21 or out of college, and they don't need to work to pay for their cars or gas or spending money.. They don't need to clean their own rooms or do chores.. The whole idea that "They are too young, to expect that from them".. Basically the adults expectations produce children who meet our expectations.. But some kids rise above these expectations.. OR.. we as adults do not have to buy into these generalities and raise our children to expect more from them. To expect that they will learn and operate within the framework of personal responsibility.. I thought student/scout would answer KC9DDI.. Since she didn't I will try to, then she can respond and tell me how wrong I am, because I am sure my understanding is not totally correct. KC9DDI said teacher/scout - not entirely sure what a "committee lifestyle" is, but it sure doesn't sound like much fun :-) teacher/scout has been in the rainbow girls for much of her life. It is part of the Mason organization. A youth group for women.. From what I see personally I don't see much fun in it.. They hold committee meetings, and can be on a locally organize groups committee, then work up into holding positions in committees that are state wide.. teacher/scout was working on the committee statewide & locally, and ran for the highest position in the state one or two years ago.. Don't know what the name is but basically the grand Poo-ba of the rainbow girls.. They are always traveling to be at other committees (inductions?? installations??- basically the swearing in of new officers for a local unit here, or a local unit there..) To which there is a lot of pomp & circumstance, long winded speeches, ritual, wearing of long gowns.. etc.. And they travel in-state & out of state..) Per teacher/scout the fun is in the traveling & the meeting up with all the girls in all the different committees.. Sometimes in these meetings they do organize some fund-raisers.. On occasion they also have some fun days like glow-bowling and laser-tag (yes, they get laser-tag!!).. But over-all.. To me it seems like boring committee meetings, and pom & circumstance.. She is still involved currently, but just locally as she winds down to end out soon when at 20 she ages out. Now student/scout can yell at me for how wrong and messed up I am with my interpretation..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Since now I primarily volunteer at district I fear the day they ask me to do some of the FOS.. They didn't ask this year, I was greatful.. I do not think I will be good at it. Maybe they just know I would not be good, and will not ask.. One can only hope..

Oh sure, tell them where we live.. Forget Anonymity.. Now everyone I took potshots at on the forums can hunt me out & shoot me down.. (Well we have had other paranoid types, like the guy who couldn't spell or punctuate.. Who said he was masking his writing intentionally so that we couldn't figure out who he was.)

As for the reason for the 18 to 21 being only allowed ASM jobs and are not allowed to be committee members. Although my thoughts agree with Eagle92, I have a more detailed belief.. The ASM's report to the SM, like crew members going to the age of 21.. BSA sees the mentoring of our youth going up to the age of 21.. Therefore the mentoring should ideally be done by the Scoutmaster & other adult ASM's.. The committee is not seen as a place to mentor the youth.. Probably if you had a functional troop, and similar to venturing allowed them to take on some of the committee jobs while being an ASM, (The Venturing crew will do their own outdoor coordinating, Treasurer etc..) this idea would work well.. But if you have a dysfunctional troop, where the SM doesn't know how to mentor a child if his life depended on it, the whole assumption does not work.. But, then the whole troop really isn't working, is it?? As for the need to wait until your 21 to do certain jobs.. I can see the 3 main jobs COR, CC and SM being set at 21 as reasonable.. I do not agree that 21 is needed before you can join the committee.. What we vote on is not more critical then voting for the US President, and 18 yo have the vote there.. Let the Troop decide which is the best place to mentor their 18 to 21 yo's based on the internal layout of the troop.. I am not one to say that my son should be SM before 21 (although appointed 2 weeks before I don't see as serious, the registration paperwork would take longer then 2 weeks to get the necessary signature, get to council and be processed.) Or the his Fiance should be CC at 21.. Personally she has the background & skills to do the job.. Reason she at district she is my Vice-chair of Training.. Between her time in Rainbows and her going to college for a Teaching degree, she has the skills.. But, Vice Chair is still with mentoring, deciding how much to let you tackel and how much you should not, and someone there to help if you become overwhelmed, and take the brunt of the blame should things go wrong..

Sorry GKlose.. We are not a Venturing Family, especially not with this COR.. The COR burnt the feeling of warm fuzzies, when she was not COR and did alot of damage to the troop by starting up a Venture Crew under the CO, that was suppose to be self sustaining, and all females.. When she didn't get enough members, she then recruited at the Troop during troop meetings, telling the boys of age to drop the troop and finish up their Eagle in the Crew, where there was no uniforms, girls, no younger boys that they needed to mentor and meetings only twice a month.. Became a big civil war, the troop in the end won out and the Crew ended up folding.. But, my son (who was not of age) and was hurt by the older boys he worshipped at the time wanting to take off. Just doesn't have the best memories of this. When his fiance joined the troop, there was mention of her becomeing Crew advisor for restarting the Crew.. The two of them cringed.. I have nothing against the Venturing Crew due to this one incident. I realize this is not how they are suppose to recruite, and it is a great place for women, and boys who will not join a troop, or who have already decided to drop out of a troop.. And on occasion some do successfully become duel enrolled. I do not blame the whole Venturing movement for the actions of one person.. But, it did come as a shock, when the Council/District Leaders would tell you the Ventures were not a threat to the Boy Scout troop.. But, when you ask them to help sort out the mess between our troop & Crew, and were told the actions of this person, their response was.. Well create a better program so the crew can not steal them.. Nothing about speaking to her and informing her this was not the right way the Venturing Crew goes about recruiting.. Also my son & (I believe fiance is the same), enjoy working in the adult world. Being members of a crew, is pulling them out of the Adult world and back into the role of a child. Then comes the complication of my son only has a few months before he is no longer a crew member, then Fiance would have another year as crew member, at which time they would not be able to date.. Kindof hard to plan a wedding and not date at the same time..

Son did well expressing himself, just wanted to add a few things on. The "broken deal" was more then verbal. It was in writting in the minutes of a meeting about 2.5 years back.. It is just that we don't have those minutes anymore, and since they are handed out in MS Word, was accused that if we did, they were meaningless since they could have been Doctored by me. The DE is very for young adults getting involved. He cannot give them the main position chair, and they do go by the book and not allow them as voting committee members. But they can work on subcommittees and/or even head a subcommittee. Being district they do have to go by the book more so then a unit.. Things son did not mention, was that the COR let the CC do the decision about the voting. So it was the CC who made the decision, even though the week before she is telling these two that she agreed with them, if they do the work on the committee they should have the committee vote. So they felt betrayed by that. The meeting (and after meeting) went until 10:00 pm.. There was though no yelling or theatrical scenes.. Just the three resigning from their position. The young people effective immediately although they will do the job of ASM (which means sit at the meeting and do nothing), (don't know if they said anything about leaving at the end of the season or not), Hubby who said he was not interested in the SM position & is there until the end of the school year to train his replacement.. And two shocked and stunned CC & COR who had all their plans smashed, and did not know what hit them, and how they will fix this. Oh and the current SM is happy to keep his job, but since his son will probably get his Eagle shortly after his project is completed at the end of summer, no one really expects that he will continue in the position as SM because he was well known to just be in the position for his son's benefit. The troop though will either learn and come out of the mess they have created for themselves or not. I would like to hope, they will fix it though.. My family doesn't need the emotional upheaval, but you do hope that we will not be the beginning of the end for the troop.. They have been around since 1943 and have alot of history, I just hope this will be a low spot in the up & down spiral of the unit. I hope they will learn a valuable lesson, dust themselves off and rise up again.