moosetracker

Well that you have another knowledgable, spirited person on board, does change the playing field a bit.. I am assuming this is the same lady who is part of the District Training staff, correct? But I don't understand the comment "If that doesn't go anywhere with my Comittee, then she's in talks with the DE to start a NEW pack".. It confuses me to figure out how you can see this as more then just your pack going to a new CO, with the same non-commital parents in tote.. If that's the case & you are a member of this church who is your current CO, so feel some loyalty to it, it would have to be something where you see monumental gain in members and Adult Leadership. So is your friends child not continuing on in Boy Scouts?.. She is not interested in helping in the Troop her son joins? I guess some people do stay behind while thier kids move up, but not often, and usually it is to help the pack they already have a strong bond with.

AnnL - I posted to your other thread asking why it was like you were going to continue with this pack with what I would call and unsuccessful recruiting night, and you were not even going to continue if this guy got CC position, but they gave it to him anyway with all of your protests, and you still stayed.. You may enjoy the Cub Master position, but with the lack of support or concern to get quality leadership to help out from the CO on down to all the other parents.. Then you can not provide the quality program your son deserves.. Remember the scouting program is about your son, and he deserves a well functioning quality program.. You may be moving from being a big fish who is swimming in an orange juice glass, to being a small fish in a big pond.. But, if your writtings are any indication of your personality, you will move yourself into being a big fish in a year or two.. May or May not make CM of a successful Pack, but that doesn't matter.. If you can start to mix and mingle with other adults who care about putting out a great program, I think you will be much happier yourself.

ScoutBox, I agree, my husband bought a jacket 5 or more years ago.. It is a nice heavy wool jacket. about 3 years ago, I went to pick up a jacket for a mother who was making a present of it to here son for Eagle.. I found the jac/shirt, and asked where the jacket was as this was only a shirt. I had to call the mother and explain the jacket was no more, and now it would only be a wool shirt for the price of the Jacket.. Since then, (I think) they added a little more weight to it, but it is still not the quality of the older Red jackets.. As for the Woodbadge course director asking for a uniform jacket, or nothing.. Can't say what other course director's did before him.. I am a newbie to the staff. For all I know, he is just carrying on what every course director before him required, only this year he had the extra choice of accepting the green as well a red Jacket, and chose to stay with Red. Maybe as green gets to be the *ONLY* thing people can buy, and more people buy them, it will turn to either or, then 10-15 years down the road become green only..

OK, gotta ask.. This recruitment night was either success, with more kids AND leaders.. (I don't see this) or you would be leaving.. AND one of your stipulations for stayind was the drunk dad was not made CC.. So they made the drunk dad CC, you did not have a successful recruitment night, (unless the wolf parent will be a den leader you now have a wolf den of 2?/3? with no leadership, and you have a lone scout tiger (Did the parent there agree to be DL if more come in the Fall recruitment??) As far as I see this was a clear message to choose to leave, and let the CO disband the unit.. But, all sounds like you have now decided to stay, and continue as sole Adult leader with your den of cubs, a bunch of lone scout programs, and no adult leadership except for yourself.. WHY?????

Yeah, regardless of if Venturing is run by the youth or not, legally they are minors until 18.. I asked about something with the new tour Plan that had in the FAQ sheet some formal perent permission form to use for parent permission. I asked someone in National if this was new, and where it was listed as required on the tour plan.. They said it was not and pointed to a small blub that basically said "Get the permission of parents.." But not through some specific form.. Well, permission of parents mean different things to different people, if the parent pays for the event, drives the boy to the drop off point of the event or whatever, our unit figured this was parents permission that we could take the kid.. Never thought of it as permission in legal written consent.. So I guess the "get permission" is not new.. And can still be mis-interpreted or overlooked when doing a Tour Plan..

Eagle92 - I did that last year, as I was a new District Training Chair, and half my staff when I came on board split due to being asked to do too much in the absence of a DTC for two years.. So I had no one who knew how to discuss the outdoor activity badges really my remaining trainers were all troop leaders and didn't know much of the cub scout stuff any more.. Since I then I have added to staff some cub scout trainers, and I found out that my district requires that WDL who what to go camping with their cubs need OWLS (although they don't have any method in place to enforce this except for Jamboree (which is this Fall)and telling Webelos den leaders their den can't stay if they do not have someone OWLS trained.. So I had to eat some crow, and inform our Pack leaders at round table that I was incorrect in having them only take IOLS last year as I did not know of the Council's policy. I have now incorporated both courses in, in a way that I don't feel short changes either course (except for the duplication of going through certain skills twice in order to receive both trainings.) I do though disagree with the attitude that "cubs don't need camping", as it is a way to get the cubs to start transitioning over into Boy Scouts and not have them go into shock by a completely different program.. In fact I think it should be a combined course, but required (not just highly suggested), for the WDL to take the boys on Webloes camping.. BALOO I think is radically different, and not gotten though IOLS.. There is way too much in the IOLS that Pack Camping does not need to know.. There are very different and strict rules around Pack Camping such as only being allowed to camp on Council approved sites, and that it is not den style camping, and the Pack does not own the tents and equipment for all their families to go camping with, but they need to beg, borrow & (well no not the third one..) lets change the third one to rent.. Beg, borrow or rent... Cooking & campfire presentation is about all that is the same.. I hate to say it but this weekend, we had a training that I couldn't attend as I had a woodbadge staff meeting on the same date.. I guess the meeting got shanhied by the participants, but I have to give credit to my staff for making it work.. It was a training day for two courses. A three hour pre-meeting for OWLS/IOLS in which we were doing the cooking & backpacking parts then letting the patrols meet to organize as they would be taking care of their own food (I don't have enough staff or ice chests for supplying all the food.) The other course was BALOO Training, which was the very first time our district was hosting it. Well it just so happened all our OWLS/IOLS participants were OWLS or both (having sons in both pack & troop).. So when they came in and asked what BALOO was they decided they wanted both trainings.. Then the BALOO participants "thought" they needed the backpacking peice and insisted that they get it.. So the staff combined the two cooking presentations and added the Backpacking skill to the training.. After the backpacking piece, the BALOO only people said "No, we really didn't need that".. One IOLS person I was told was upset because I guess he wanted to have both courses, but still get out at noon time as the IOLS course had stated it would. He did not get BALOO.. The others who decide they wanted BALOO with OWLS/IOLS understood that they had to stay for the entire BALOO course to be completed.

Boo.. Hiss.. Double ick.. (Does that sum up my feelings well??) It is such a hassle to have the two when they are so identical.. Many of our districts (In fact I dont know any that do not combine them, but there are two different ways that they combine them. One group combines it in a way to save the staff time and double duty, but not the volunteer leaders. They hold both on the same weekend, the groups are together except for two courses, Wood tools and Plants/animals identification for IOLS, where Webelos get whittling chit and Outdoor activity pins.. Then the participants leave with only one course signed off, and the OWLs group must return in two years to take the same course over for the two skills they missed out on. The other groups give out the OWLS/IOLS course training at the same time. I am in this group. I dont know how others do it, but we do the IOLS course first (making sure the Webelos know that the axe is only taught to the boys at Boy Scout level.) Then we let anyone only wanting IOLS training leave early, and keep those wanting OWLs in order to teach them the skills of OWLs not covered in the IOLS training. If National wants to keep the two as separate, they would have to make the two radically different (and I don't see how as both really need very similar skills). Right now, the differences between the two are so small, it only angers our volunteers to be put through what is essentially the same course twice.. A total waste of their valuable time.. I do know though that those in my council who teach the course the first way will be thrilled. I hear them at council meetings complain that it is ridiculous to combine them as they are so different. And the dangers of teaching the Webelos Leaders axe skills now.. Like they are untrustworthy to accept the information that the axe is not something you are allowed to teach Webelos, and work in those confines.) Like if they were going to be idiots and hand an axe to a Webelos after training, they would not be a similar idiot and hand an axe to a Webelos before training. I think some of our District Trainers have a superiority complex or are training snobs.. I hope I never stop being totally respectful and in awe of the time that our volunteer leaders put into this program, and continue to always give them the respect that they deserve. Sure I would like a good size class, but not at the expense of the time of our valuable Volunteers. So I don't see the need to force leaders to go through my training twice..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Seeing this is similar to my question, I will ask it here also.. I also like the color of the green jacket over the red (but don't dislike the red, and before the green came out was thinking of getting a red one). But I am on staff for wood badge, and the course director wants us as uniformed to each other as possible. He did admit the changes of uniform styles over the years he is not forcing us all to get the uniform shirts & pants of this year's style so we match & will take the difference in style. But for the jacket he wants us all to have red (or no jacket.).. Now ours is in August/October, and things can start being very cool.. But not only the color of the green vs red makes me hesitant over buying anything, but the extra cost of the green one being $30 cheaper then the red one is giving me pause.. For one year, I could maybe borrow my husbands (he is just a kitchen elf during the course).. But, if I get on staff in rotation this would not do as a several years type of solution. Also I heard that the red jacket is being discountinued by people on the staff, and we probably could not get one now anyways, but when I went into the store I still saw the red one, and the person at the store knew nothing about them being discountinued.. But the fact I now fear them being discountinued, makes me think if I am going to buy red, I need to buy it now -or- never.. I know that no one can help my decision between green vs red.. But does anyone know if the difference in price is just because of difference in material, or because the material is better for me (more warmth, less itchy) etc.. Something I can feel I am paying an extra $30 for something that is more beneficial to me, as I could otherwise care less about different material.. Also has anyone else heard, is the red jacket being discountinued?

Sounds like overall vision for your ticket would be to become trained to lead high adventure activities. Or "Get Trained to become a well rounded leader".. So some of the possibilities for your 5th item would not fit the overall vision of the Ticket. The army football, coucil jamboree, (Don't know enough about the knots to know if they would fit or not, maybe), also the start a venturing Crew (and that is a large under taking so that I would say would be THE ticket vision, not a step to achieve the vision of a ticket).. About the WB staff saying come on board.. That's like asking the sales clerk if you should buy a certain computer.. They need to fill their course by a certain number of the course gets canceled.. But good luck to you.. You will enjoy it, although some will whiz by faster then you can catch.

I have gotten the redirect 2 now also.. I immediately go to the task manager & take it down from there without hitting any buttons. Don't know if this keeps the little virus guys from attacking or not.

What state is this in, I couldn't find it in the artical. I use to live in Chicago Suburbs where there were neighboring towns of Joliet & Bolingbrook (fact I lived in Bolingbrook.) But then it doesn't make sense OGE's comment about tornado alley or Extreme Boonies because those cities are very large well populatied cities.

Well my campfire program was 3 hours of the course.. You can get through what you want to without making it the longest, most stressed part of the entire course.. Can't you?

Basement said "One group even knew there patrol before lunch the first day......." maybe this is a change to the WB course over the last few years? I took WB21C in it's 3rd or 4th year.. I am told at the first lunch we had a Blue & Gold (but if so it blew by me..) But, I am sure.. positive.. I was told I was a Bob White within an hour of when I arrived.. And the dely was probably due to the fact that I came unannounced and angry as hell at the *#@@ course director.. So I am sure they isolated me to a) figure out if my foul mood was going to seep out onto the other participants (Which it wasn't I was only mad at one person).. And b) to figure out which patrol to put me in, and I was happy to see I did foul up their patrol organization.. To this day I will call the course director a turd.. But all the other staffers and participants were wonderful, and I enjoyed myself when not trying to shoot daggers at the CD with my eyes.. All other course directors have been wonderful, I just got stuck with the one lemon of the bunch.. Anyway.. Do all you guys not get assigned your patrol until after the first day lunch..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

The video is good. We have done that at different activities with some success. A picture is worth a 1000 words, a slide show is worth a million.. Do you have some games that could keep the kids interested while you talk to the parents? Knowing your group you will have no worker bee helper, but if they are kindergarten, going on first grade for a new tiger den, then some easy thing may be just clothespins in a bottle, or blowing bubble, or an old light single colored bedsheet that they can all draw on together (with washable markers).. The words I can't help you with.. I have been out of cub scouts for too long.. And I still think with your Pack, "run for your lives" is appropriate.

RUN.. Run for your lives!!! No?? Where is it being held? who is the audience? Age of kids? Parents normally all American, middle class? That sort of thing.. Need more details...

No.. What I am proposing is to use the syllabus verbatim for IOLS.. Which is a brief description of what to cover in each skill section.. But lock the participants down to 1 patrol of 8 EXPIERIENCED participants.. Hand them the syllabus and have them each divide up a section and be the instructors.. With one District Trainer.. We are told all the time to use our expirenced participants as the training staff.. The only thing is that a) all the participants will be expirience.. b) all the participants will be used as the training staff.. c) the class will be small and managable (of a patrol size) Now if you have no one in the course who is a newbie.. How fast do you think they can breeze through a review of knots, even following what needs to be covered? How fast do you think they can go through orienteering? Woodworking tools? etc.. There is no slow down of people who are totally confused.. So with that extra time what can they cover that is more advanced? Why can't they then get out earlier?? There is no deviation from the syllabus.. As for the test-out I guess the councils who disagree with the test-out had their say. National told them that if they held a vote and the vote between the District Training staff is to not accept the Test-out, National would up-hold their position..

Ok.. Is there a Venturing crew your son plans on joining or do you plan to start one?. If you are thinking of starting one, then when would your son be of age? Starting a Venture crew could be your big ticket item with incrimental steps to get to your vision.. Don't know if you saw my post above yours as yours & my posts may have crossed. But check with someone on the staff this year.. Your ticket may now be one large vision, with a mission of 5 incrimental steps to reach your one vision.. Not 5 different projects.

Ok.. Is there a Venturing crew your son plans on joining or do you plan to start one?. If you are thinking of starting one, then when would your son be of age? Starting a Venture crew could be your big ticket item with incrimental steps to get to your vision.. Don't know if you saw my post above yours as yours & my posts may have crossed. But check with someone on the staff this year.. Your ticket may now be one large vision, with a mission of 5 incrimental steps to reach your one vision.. Not 5 different projects.

Woodbadge is a great course.. But it is a course that you get educated by firehose method.. If you are not ready for it, you will miss 70% of what the course throws at you that others with some back history will pick up.. So I doubt your SM is being mean spirited by asking you to wait.. Take it similar to some fatherly advise who has a kid eager to jump out and grab life with both arms and all the gusto he can muster.. But, woodbadge (at least in my counsil) does not need your SM approval, just as an 18 yo does not have to listen to his fathers advise.. If you really want to go for it, then that is your decision. Now I don't know about anyone else who is an Instructor for a WoodBadge course.. But this year the description of the ticket has changed.. When I took it I had 5 ticket items all unrelated projects.. When my husband was a troop guide and the year after when my son took it, it was still 5 seprate projects but you had to wrap them under an umbrella.. (so most people selected 5 items and put it under a wide umbrella of something like "organization" or "training" or in rhol's case maybe "improved outdoor program".. This year I am an instructor and the description of your ticket is like so radically different I went.. Wow!!! Why wasn't it that way when I went through.. It is one large project with 5 incrimental step to make it happen.. So if that is the way they have changed the ticket item for you rhol, you maybe could pick up a few of the high adventure activities.. But save one type of high adventure type activity for when you do your woodbadge in a year.. (But don't choose rock climbing, unless you plan to become a certified instructor, or know someone who is.. That certification thing is killing one of the troops in our districts well laid out plans.. Because your ticket items do not have to be 1) White Water rafting 2) Philmont 3) parasailing etc... But your ticket can be.. Philmont.. then 1) organize fund raisers 2) learn backpacking skills 3) do mini hikes etc.. Anyway which ever way you choose.. Welcome and love your enthusiasm.. I hope you stay around on the forum so that we can get to know you.

You two typing reminds me of the guy who said he was disguising his handwriting so that we couldn't figure out who he was.. (I still get a chuckle out of that comment although the actual poster himself was obnoxious.)

List could go on for ever.. and ever.. Tarps or rain flys water jugs coolers bug juice holders ropes & tent stakes Flag & flag pole (or staves & rope) first aid kit Games/activites for quiet time energetic games/activities (Maybe) a raised firepit & something to take home ashes (depends on requirements) (We are talking general equipment, not personal right? Because personal adds things like sleeping bags & rain gear etc..)

evmori - I doubt MIB meant problem that they sit around and complain about it.. More as the OP sees it as a problem, but the board members normally do not work the project, so this is a common issue that is part of the whole Eagle board process.. The board must ask questions and take the word of the scout. Even if the troop was involved in the project the board (most times) are not aware of if the unit is boy-run or adult run.. So for them it makes no difference whether the volunteers are the troop members or friends & relatives outside of scouts.. Asking questions and trusting the scouts honesty & integrety is part of the process.

A few months back?? Try a year or more back. I heard about this combination of OWLS & IOLS the first week I took this position (about a year back now).. I had hoped for it before my Fall course, no luck.. I had hoped for it before my Spring course, no luck.. Our Council has outlawed the IOLS test-out.. But.. the end of this month I return to the bi-monthly planning meeting to debate a compromise to the IOLS.. Hopefully we can get to vote on it, and I will have a good enough arguement to persuade everyone that it will answer all of their objections about the test-out, we are not making up our own course program, yet it will give the expirienced scouters both a shorter course and a more advanced course.

Thanks, this is exactly what I needed.. Like I said, I am not out to fight a battle.. I just want him to know that I am not making stuff up and passing out wrong information.. (Well at least not wrong if I don't know the Councils' added policies)..

I know it has been discussed in the past.. But, I said something to our programs Director, based on everything I have seen not only here but surfing around the web.. And since it is not what he thinks is true, I need to show some proof of where I ever got it from.. While IOLS is Required of SM & ASM and for Venturing if they have an outdoor program.. OWLS is highly recommended, but not required.. He showed me the following passage.. BSAs Cub Scout Outdoor Program Guidelines (#510-631) as of the 2009 printing states that for Webelos Den Overnight Camping : A Webelos den leader who has completed position-specific training and Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders training should conduct these events. Council is just following that guideline by requiring OWLS. What is your source stating that OWLS is only recommended? Perhaps its been updated? Let me know so I can help make sure people are getting the right information! I think I already have him as (highly recommended, not required) simply in what he is stating (Which has the word "SHOULD", not "is required to have").. I also have the following link from Scouting .org.. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/Adults/Training/Trained%20Leader.aspx which notes that for Venturing Crew Leaders Venturing crew Leaders whose Crew have an outdoor program must also complete Introduction to Outdoor Skills training to be considered fully trained.. (The same is not stated for Webelos Leaders).. Basically I am not trying to fight the issue.. If the Council wants to tighten the requirements, it is fine with me.. I just stated shock at seeing the statement by the council as in.. "Wow.. I didn't know our council had tightened that policy up.. I have been spreading the wrong information".. But before I show him why I had the opinion that I did, I would like something a little more substantial then one link from a respectable source that did not mention OWLS as required training.. Maybe two or three omitting it but stating Venturing is required.. I know I have seen other lists that state required or omit OWLS as required, but add IOLS is required for Venturing with an outdoor program.. Just can not put my finger on it..