moosetracker

Well then you have four options as far as I can see. 1) What does council say.. If they will not allow a single adult for a plane trip, then it doesn't matter what your CC or COR think. If council is OK with it, then I would talk to the COR.. But, my suggestion is to add to the plan that one of the parents of another boy going go to the airport and get special ok to go to the plane & wait for take-off (if a minor is flying without a parent, one person can go with him to see him off on the plane. That means there are two adults until the plane takes off.. (hopefully the trip does not have a change-over).. Then for you to make sure your flight is on time and can meet them at the gate.. That will eliminate most of the "what if" worries.. 2) Check what trip you booked, and what the maximum is that it can take.. If two more can be added, then add them.. Now you have two adults with the scouts from Illinois to Florida, and you & your son can meet up with them.. You two as father & son should not need to be added to the tour permit until you meet up in Ft. Lauderdale.. If Council is not good with the tour plan of only one adult on the trip to Florida, this may be your only hope. 3) If council is against the plan, or the COR sides with the CC (CO & COR does have a right to add their own rules & regulations as long as it is above & beyond BSA rules).. And the sea base tour is for a maximum of 8 people.. Then you fly back to Illinois. 4) Lastly, if 1, 2 or 3 are not an option, you give up your seat so that the trip for the others continue.. BUT I would insist that anything you paid into it you get back.. If it was all fundraised then this is not an issue, but you should not foot the bill for two other people to go for free.

Welcome.. You found yourself a group of very opinionated people.. And we all know it

If there is someone in the troop willing to replace you, yes they can. The CC, SM or COR any of them could have you replaced, if they have someone to fill your shoes.. Overstepping what bounds? These key 3 are the controls to make sure that the troop is following the rules for saftey, as well as offering the a program to the boys that is the ideology of what scouting is all about.. Adults take a backseat to everything else.. Now if you have put money down on this trip, you should be given it back, since they are choosing to have someone go instead of you in consideration of the scouts safety during this trip. Going by car can be everyone on their own, if they are not organizing a car pool. But orgainized transportation should be on the tour plan, if the trip requires a tour plan.. It asks for a itemization of everything, not an itemization of what you want to put down while skipping other things on the trip are not organized well... The Tour plan requires trips longer then 500 miles to be documented.. A plane flight from Illinois to Florida will be 500 miles.. So the trip must be on a tour plan regardless of if they went to a high Adventure base, or went to play golf and then returned. Times when a tour plan must be submitted for council review include: Trips of 500 miles or more Trips outside of council borders not to a council-owned property Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, or regionally sponsored event The only way around that would be for each of the parents to fly their children to Florida seprately.. But that is as inconvient and costly for the other parents as it is for you to return to Illinois and start your trip from there.. Your group of 6 are traveling as a troop and need to be documented as such.. Since you can travel as one adult as long as not 1 on 1, this may be fine for Youth protection.. But, others may see problems such as loosing a scout at the airport, some scouts needing to use the bathroom or the adult leader needing to use the bathroom and leaving other scouts without Adult supervision.. Bad weather causing you to get stuck at the airport, or in some strange city the airplane was deviated to.. So they may not see this in the same light as a car trip travel with one adult and a few scouts.. Question is, how is your Council going to see this item, as simply travel, or as something that is or could turn into an event.

Agree with ScoutNut.. If one of the adult leaders are comeing from Conneticut.. But, again, I would first call the Council and the person who does the tour permits. If you and they can come to an agreement, you can use it to get the CC on board.. If you can't get them to agree, then the tour plan will die there regardless of what your CC's views are.

Yeah, our troop may be more saftey oriented then yours, but they would never take kids that they don't know the swimming abilities of on a trip involving water.. In fact until our scouts get their Swimming Meritbadge (not just pass the swim test at camp).. They will not go on canoeing, Kayaking or white water trips, they will go on swimming trips, but some (not all) time is spent working on the swimming Merit badge. Scouts do not need their DL's approval to visit troops or attend troop events.. But, there may be some valid concerns over this activity, rather then just trying to force everyone to go to the troop of their choice.

A little more expense to a unit, but I would put any openly gay scout in their own tent.. Not with other staight boys that may be uncomfortable, not with girls, and not with other gay scouts.. Don't know how to work the showers, depending on the number of gays, it might be very long to have them all shower seprately.. I guess in a public mens shower you guys are use to not really knowing who you are showering with.. But, don't know how you feel when you do know the person next to you is gay.. Most showers in public womens facilities are still seperate private stalls, so I have not had to deal with that issue. Those are the only two issues I see a ticklish with having gay men join..

Ahh.. I answered your intro post, didn't realize you did start a second post listing what exactly you needed addressed with the uniform. Others may tell me I am wrong, but this is what I see. 1) 25 badge Could stay on your old uniform, but should not be transfered to a new uniform. 2) Quality Unit 1987 Should be removed.. It should be replaced yearly still, or removed if you are no longer in a unit, or your unit doesn't make Quality Unit.. Actually Quality Unit was replaced this year by a new program, so I have no idea what next years patches will look like. 3) Quartermaster patch. GONE! It is a youth position. Some one can correct me if I am wrong, But if you are a MBC, you have no unit (so no unit numbers if you have unit numbers currently on your uniform..) But I think you need the silver tabs.. I am unsure if you are just a District member or considered part of the District Committee, and can wear that patch.. I tend to doubt you are not, unless you actually do sit on the District Committee. 4) Star rank GONE! It is a youth award.. Even if you had earned Eagle, and continue in the troop past 18 the Eagle award must be removed for an adult knot of recognition. Sorry, There is no adult knot of recognition for any ranks below Eagle. (This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Just to make sure you use the correct form. The Tour Permit is dead.. Long Lived the tour permit.. Now in use is the Tour Plan.. I would call your council to ask this question, unsure if the one who handles tour permits in everyones council is the receptionist, but that is our council. In any case the receptionist can link you with who does do the permits. My gut feeling is that you start your tour plan with the 6 scouts and Adult leaders in Illinois.. The 2 other scouts are not apart of the Tour plan and thus not part covered as part of the trip until they meet up with your group at Ft. Lauderdale.. But only those two would be starting their trip in Florida.. How you add that into the tour plan, I do not know, but the person doing the tour plan at your council should be able to walk you through were they want to see this information on the form, and how they would like it worded.. In the long run they are approving the Tour plan, so you only have to make them happy.. Still, don't be surprised if they need to ask their supervisor what it is that will make them happy, and need to get back to you.. Such is the Bureaucratic life.(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Welcome HS! I can't help you with the restoring, but know others might like to know specifically what is wrong with your uniform. Is there damage to the uniform, or is it more a question of if you can put newer emblems & patches on an older uniform.. Any old uniform is still official uniform, and I have seen a few scouters wear them for everyday use.. Looks nice in my book.

Welcome.. I hope to see you around the boards.. The older style uniforms are neat.. I like the ones that are more green then tan.. My husband still insists they are green, and I could not see how he could see green in the shirt color, until I saw the older uniforms he use to wear.. Now he just needs to update his eyes so he see the current shirt, and not the old style shirt when he looks at everyone in uniform.

Seems to be back to about 1/4 a page this afternoon. FoxFire does freaky things with some of the stuff we do.. Tried it at work, and had to take it down and go back to IE.. Since it was a problem at work, never tried it at home, got a bad opinion of it. I use to have an great ad blocker.. Took off all adds top, sides pop-ups.. Someone bought them out to kill the tool. Something after that made it un-usable, don't remember if it was a new windows version or if it had a subscription time-out. Since then I have tried one that stopped everything, and another that added in a virus type of popup ads that popped up a new ad every ten seconds until you had hundreds of ads open.. Had to reinstall windows and reload all my programs to get rid of it.. Since then, I am to scared to try anything else.. But boy I loved my ad blocker, and miss it.

Before it was 1/4 the side of the page, ok.. Now it cuts the page in half.. Half forum, half sidebar.. Makes for the entry of posts & the reading of posts very long & narrow.. No way for me to push it back over to where it belongs. Is anyone else experiencing this or only me?

Hey where's my dessert?? Best part of the meal.. Gone!!! What do I do with my dutch oven cobbler now.. Nice & warm and oohie - gooie good..

Seems like a silly question given your frustration. But, since you have asked him and he will not accomidate, it is time to move up the ladder.. So have you talked to the Cub Master & the Committee Chair?.. Either should be able to give you the phone #s to your other den parents, Either could talk to the WDL and let him know that they have decided you and one other parent are qualified to take the boys camping and that you have their blessing to do so.. Either could tell the WDL he is getting assistance who are in charge of the outdoor portion of the Webelo program. If it is really bad, and you have the majority of the dens parents wanting a new DL, then CC/CM & COR (who the CC & CM should call in if a person is being removed from a position) can get the ball rolling to make that happen.. But, you should have a replacement in mind. I am sure your CC & CM do not like conflict. But if you give them conflict one way or the other.. Either one unhappy de-throned ex-WDL.. Or 5 or more unhappy parents calling them constantly with this is done wrong, or that is done wrong.. A patition to replace the WDL.. And a plan as to who is willing and capable to take over.. Then you can make it an easy choice of dealing with a conflict with one person for a short time until the dust settles, or a conflict with a multitude of parents that will continue everytime the WDL opens his mouth. The big thing is to have definite succession plan.. But, if getting them to force him to have an assitant to work the outdoor aspect of the program. One who has the authority for the Outdoor section that he can not override.. If this will make you & the other parents happy, then that is the more friendlier alternative for all concerned. Even with that you should have the succession plan ready to go in case he throws a temper tantrum and quits..

Good one 83Eagle.. With the on-line trainings, All the den leader specific trainings are very similar.. Change the color of the beads being awarded.. The display of the book.. (I think there was one other change).. But after that, all was the same old same old.. Redundant and not worth much.

If someone feels sexually harrassed, it should be treated as sexual harrassment, even if those who are causing the duress do not mean it that way. They should be talked to and made to understand the uncomfortable position they are putting their fellow co-worker in.. No one should be made to feel uncomfortable or harrassed.. If all are equally young they may be more seeing in this fellow something that reminds them of Adam Sandlers portral of the guy (nerdy? gullable? or just the voice or something), and not realizing the full implications.. Then again they may.. Makes no difference, it is how their actions have cause another to feel.. Making him not feel a part of the group, but alienated from it and not an equal but a source of ridicule.

All of my helpful answers were from those that answered such a general call. Not really, you asked in a forum where we as a group have chosen to be here and learn from others while we try to help others.. We already are bitten by the scouting bug.. It is like walking into a room of people who are already at a meeting to coordinate a Council Jamboree and asking "Who wants to do something to organize the Jamboree.." Since they are all there for that purpose, they may ask for specifics, because they don't want to volunteer for trash duty.. But, otherwise, they will volenteer to help. We are all checking the board daily to see who to help, and if we have anything to say will throw it out.. Then if no one shows up, we just banter with each other.. Your parents are there to drop off their children for baby sitting, not to be the baby sitter.. So when asked to volunteer will sink down in their seat and look anywhere that will not make eye contact with you. They are not bitten by the scouting bug.

qwazse - that is an awsome topic!! I know I would love to sit in on something like that.. It is a topic over looked.. Needed, Valuable, but not under our normal radar of things discussed.

Reminds me of this parent (wont call her an adult leader).. Who went on some of the campouts, causing the adult leaders to grit their teeth.. During one Jamboree (wall to wall tent city).. She did not want to use the public port-a-potties.. So she decided she would have the shower curtain thing, with her personal port-a-potty inside.. OK.. bad enough everyone had images of her pooping right next to your tent, or the port-a-potty rolling out from under her and down a hill.. But.. the last staw and the "NO WAY" came from the SM when she expected the scouts to carry her port-a-potty in & out of the jamborie for her.. Sorry every time I see a camping shower curtain thing, I think of her..

evmori I have no problem if it goes coed or not.. I do have a problem with people saying that allowing girls in will ruin the program.. Because everything boring, or organized is feminine, while everything fun and exciting is masculine.. And the addition of girls into boy scouts will mean the program will become more boring, organized and regimented with the addition of feminine activities such as baking cookies & sewing doilies... If BSA never goes co-ed, or goes co-ed tomorrow, the program will continue as it always has, with changes still being made by National to lower the risk whether it be for the boys or the boys & the girls.. With some dens, Packs & troops as well as (Crews, teams & ships) being very exciting and adventurous in spite of Nationals changes and some being as boring as Hell, and others falling in the middle mostly due to the adult leadership, and some to the youth leadership if the adults truely give them power and the youth choose the lazy road of routine events. The addition of girls or not, will not change the program..

For the scouts, probably no big deal, as most are low to the ground anyway and wear the same clothes without ever removing them.. For some of us adults that are getting up there in years.. Trying to cram a weeks worth of gear into the pup tent, wiggling clothes on while sitting, kneeling or lieing on your back etc.. ick.. Some of the adults who will go during scout summer camp are not the same who will take the scouts backpacking, just falls into who has the time to take a weeks vacation, or is retired.. Myself I camp with the family, but rarely with the troop. I like my tents with enough ceiling space where I can stand up & change.. I guess I could bring the old family tent, on the rare occasions I do tent, but I hate being the odd person out.. I have yet to hear of our council camps discussing changing over though.

Should be fine then.. If they are repeating Tigers and the parent takes on the Tiger DL position. As someone said they can choose different "go see its", the parent as leader will make sure his son is not board, as his own son's interest will be the first indicator if the other boys are also excited about the program he is providing. The boy's interest will just perk up having his dad as leader anyways.. Most likely the boy is excited to repeat with the thought of dad as leader.. And barring any personality disorders with the Parent that would make him the wrong person to put in charge (Which would be up to the CM, CC and committee to discuss and agree on).. The fact that the new Tiger den is getting an expirenced DL will be a bonus to them.. Tiger is usually a hard year due to the fact you have a totally inexperienced, brandy-dandy new DL.. and possibly someone not gung-ho to be Leader but was the one who drew the short staw.. Barring a personality disorder with the Adult, sounds like a win-win..

Well then I guess you are doing what they want.. to me "leave no trace" and "service project" together are an oxymoron.. A service project improves (but changes the enviroment.. LNT is not to change the environment..).. Although.. with LNT, they do have you take down other man made changes, like removing someone elses firering.. Or the pick-up trash.. The weed thing kind of confuses me.. Yes, the weeds are not a native plant, and invasive.. Good to be gone.. but I bet when you rip them out, there will be some homeless bugs, maybe even a snake or chipmonk hole will loose it's protective cover.. Then if you throw poison on it, the bugs & snakes and probably other grasses that grew under the thistles will be even more disturbed.. Maybe other animals if the poisen used is really toxic.. But then maybe some bugs lived under the rocks in the fire ring you dismantled, or under the trash you removed.. So I guess there are times that LNT is not really LNT at all..

Does it need to be a LNT conservation project, or some fun Activity with LNT? Here is a site with a bunch of activity suggestions.. More like fun & game type things, but I have not read them all, so there might be a project or two. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/BoyScouts/TeachingLeaveNoTrace.aspx

Our son repeated second grade, but we kept him going with his den through the ranks, rather then stick him into a different den.. It had a little bit of fudge at the end, because he moved into boy scouts not of the right age or the right grade. But earning the Arrow of Light at the time got him in, (I hear now adays it would not).. I guess it is really up to the parents & boy.. But I would agree that he may be board doing the same things over again, unless the den leader is very entertaining and makes it alot of fun so that he does not mind repeating the stuff over again. If not because he does not need to earn the rank, you will find he finding it convient to skip meetings, and once he starts skipping he may slip down the slope & out of the pack.