moosetracker

Greeting gregH.. Wow! we are getting some UK attention, which is great to have your input. I don't know how long ago it was that you Where the counselor in PA, but really our rules are that Adults do not sleep or shower or change with the scouts unless it is a parent/scout staying in the same tent.. Frankly if the rules here were to sleep all the scouts in one big tent, then I would be fine with that Male/Female Gay/Straight.. But, where the rules are to separate the two sexes, and then I see it only fair treatment to separate the openly gay also.. I do not see my reaction as being homo-phobic, but as fair treatment for all concerned.. If it were cabin camping, and we had 10 scouts in one big cabin, I do not feel it would be neccessary at that time to put the openly gay scout in a cabin by themselves.. You are right, there is saftey in numbers. I just don't see it a good idea to put them in a two man tent with someone else.. Thanks for some insight into the differences in scouting in the UK, that help you to eliminate the problem, or keep it under better control.. We in the USA, just got the right to have patrols camp on their own taken away, but they can still do day activities on their own, like hiking.

HA! Semi-vindicated Thanks Beavah.. Im not totally crazy, remembering those old VCRs. BadenP, I agree with you that the COR has the final say because it is their signature on the recharter.. So I guess they could put up a rule that no one hires or fires any position, and place themselves as the sole person who hires & fires. Or as in the case at our unit, our COR, retained the right to choose the SM & CC (the two head positions), but the committee voted in the rest of the positions.. But I know unless policy changed then the old VCR training put out by National was not bogus, and I have heard time and again the CC on the organizational chart is above the CM/SM because they have the right to fire them (which I know not to be true, it is more that they can act on a committee vote to fire them).. In fact when I was a CC I was told I had the power to get rid of a SM that was not following BSA policy on safety.. It just seems that the committee can also replace the CC if there are problems & you have a COR that is not involved. With most units I know that when they are filling a vacancy, normally the COR just accepts the selected candidate from a committee vote, unless they have personal misgivings about the individual.. But, as stated, if it is forcefully removing, that is not something you do not want to blindside a COR with, but make them aware of the situation and double check that they will support the committee.. Now Beavah, the part of HOW the committee goes about removing a person from a position was more guesswork, because BSA always trains for how to run the perfect troop, that is running smoothly and never have issues.. They do not train for how to fix a problem. What you say makes a lot of sense. That you dont vote to fire, you just vote in a new replacement.

Old_OX - If scouting stopped at 11 years old I would agree with you.. But with boy scouts it is 18 and with Ventureing it 21.. Now lets ask your question again.. At 17 years old what does a boy know about sexual orientation? Answer Alot, most kids now adays have lost their virginity by that age.. At 20 years old what does a boy know about sexual orientation? Answer see answer above.. Look I am all for allowing gays & Lesbiens into scouting, both youth & adult.. 99% would be fine.. But as I would not put a male & female in a tent together and figure at their age (be it 11 or 17) nothing would happen, neither would I put a gay with either a boy or a girl in a tent.. Ignoring sexual orientation because I don't quite understand it and can't relate to it, seems pretty naive to me.. How do I know the other boy in the tent is not another gay who is simply not open about it?.. What do you do with someone who swings both ways? Well you can't address the matter, if they are not open about it.. I am sure there are probably a few closet gays teens that are in boy scouts together & tent together.. But you should address the matter to put them in their own ten if they are open about it..

ScoutNut - sure packs are all different.. But that is why we all come to these boards to learn from how everyone else does things differently then in our little neck of the woods.. Take those suggestions that we think our great ones and present them to others in our unit, and then either others will say "Great idea!" or "What pills have you been popping lately?" An example from my old troop I can see is as time went on the SM organized the car pool for the scouts.. SM's changed, CC's changed still the SM's still organize the car pool.. I wonder what the current SM would say if a new CC comes in and says, "Would you like the committee to start organizing the car pool for the events for you.. You know it is suppose to be a function of the Troop committee, but if you enjoy continuing to do that, that is fine." Thing is things do slide into the SM or CM relm of tasks that should not, because they end up not having the help and doing it, in order to make things happen.. A new CC being wise to what may be on his plate that should not be, may be thanked for taking it off his plate.. If the new CC just comes in and runs things the way it always was, then it is a missed opportunity for the CC to be helpful.

Welcome! We enjoy hearing from those in other countries about the differences in their program. We have been following some of the changes in your country, and have had some debates about them. Their is one currently going on about your inclusion of gay scouts..

True - what you say about the COR, which is why I originally said the COR can reinstate anyone the committee votes out.. But, Wow.. I even remember a training video a long while back probably VCR not on-line.. Showing the electing of positions by the committee, where there is a huge room of committee folks and you have 4 or 5 people all wanting the same committee position.. So the committee listened to their campaigne & voted the best candidate in.. I laughed at the whole notion as normally you are out begging for somebody to take on some vacant position.. "You want it, You got it.. Whoopie!" With our troop, our COR chose the CC & the SM, but with everyone else at the committee table, someone would say, we have position xyz open.. They look around the table & say "You, will you do it?" if you agree, then there is a committee vote to accept you in the position.." Or we look around the table at who is not present, say So-&-So is not here, I nominate him.." The committee votes them in, and we call them on the cell phone to tell them, that since they were abscent, they were voted into doing xyz.. And then after all that committee voting, you fill out a form and our COR signed it in.. The only one we fired was the CC.. And event thought we knew the COR could do it, it was still done, through Committee vote.

Happened in my troop.. A scout made advances on another, the attacker we removed from the troop, the attack-ee we could not convince to come back as he was totally humiliated and though everyone knew.. But, even with that example, it is not the point.. It is more the comfort level of all the scouts.. Our troop has pup tents that sleep 2, most of the troops at camporees have similar 2 man tents.. If you put a boy & girl together in a tent, most likely nothing will happen.. But, what would be the comments & whistles when the emurge the next morning.. If you put a straight guy with a guy who has defined himself as gay, the comments would be the same. Now maybe you can put a lid on the teasing in the troop, but it is sure to get out & around at their school, and you can not put a lid on that. We seperate boys from girls even if we trust the kids totally, and have rules upon rules upon overlapping rules to protect the opposite sex from each other.. Seems a little simplistic on our parts to just wave the sexual orientation of a gay man off, and not care a twit about the reputation of the straight man (or gay man for that matter) when we ask the two to pair up and sleep in the tent with each other..

Different councils have different times of the year when their recharter happens, but I would find it odd if done in the summer months, given many units become inactive or meet just for a monthly event, so it would be hard for units to organize the rechartering in those months.. Unless your unit pays for all your dues, most people know when their recharter time is because you are asked to cough up some money for it.. BadenP. - That is strange, I have been told on numerous occasions by a few DE's, and about 3 different trainings about committee, or unit organizations, that the COR can fire people, and the CC can act on a committee vote to fire people (normally this is stated for the fireing of a CM or DL or whatever..) But, since the CC must act on a committee vote regardless of their personal veiw, if the committee votes to fire a CM or DL, they need to carry it out.. I would assume they would also need to carry out firing themselves if the committee voted on it.. But, as stated much easier to terminate a CM or DL through committee vote then a CC..

One thing to make the COR more able to side with you is to have someone willing to step up to do the CC position.. Many dislike leaving a vacancy of a position that is required for rechartering, and have no idea how to fill it.. They tend to leave the deadwood in place because it is a name, if nothing else.

Welcome! what a major topic for a first post!! Easiest way is to talk to the COR (Charter Organization Rep, they can fire with a stroke of a pen..) Or the Institutional Head who is above COR, but you are going over the chain of command if doing that, and I would only recommend to start with them if your Committee chair is your COR.. A little more difficult is the committee can vote them out.. But, you would still need your COR to back your decision, because your COR can reinstate them with the stroke of a pen.. Kindof hard to have a vote to eliminate the CC by committee with the CC in the room also. Our troop had to fire a CC once.. The COR pretty much made up their mind that he had to go, and could have done so with a stroke of a pen. But, she did not want the move to divide the troop up.. So she called an emergancy committee meeting (including SM,ASM's), and told us why she felt it was needed and got our unanamous support.. Really it was supporting her decision, and a validation that there would be no inner war over the decision. The the CC was terminated..(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

Wow does your Council run alot of WB courses!! You must be a huge council (but close to Philmont, I am sure that training is a high priority/interest for your area.. Still unless you get lots of people traveling from out of council to your course, I am surprised that the number of people who want to staff does not multiply by the number of courses that you host, since at least about 1/4 of those who go through woodbadge would then like to staff woodbadge..

Yeah - What BPT00 said, that was the first point I was making.. But with SP's statement just made me think, I am sure we are not the only council who have people really wanting to be on woodbadge staff.. Why, is this seen as more exciting to Scouters over other district needs? Reason being is that if the staff is well picked, the staff make the course look like it is really fun to hang around with the staff and be apart of the course, no work involved, just a good time.. (Basement.. I said "staff is well picked" so not comments from the peanut gallery).. Well those who get up to being a course Director are usually so well ensconced in their council & district programs, that I am sure they realize the need for good help, and appreciate those that offer to help in areas that may look more like work and less like fun.. So, just a comment that this being the case, since being on WB staff is highly coveted, whether intentionally or not, when choosing from a list of potentials why wouldn't they reward those that have been of great help to them in areas where few would volunteer? but, KC9DDI brings up another good point.. I was selected to be on WB staff this year.. I guareentee you had I not taken on the District Training Chair position, I would not have been asked.. They had two openings, that of Troop Guide, and that of Scribe.. Originally their intent was to make me Troop Guide.. I told them I was better placed as Scribe because I was too shy to do the Troop Guide well.. So the Course director email me the next day, and indicates that as Scribe I would still need to do a presentation, and to the whole group rather then 8 people.. Would I be more comfortable with the one large presentation to all, or a small group setting of small presentations.. I told him the presentations were not the issue, it was that my personality is more of a quiet observer rather then the type to light up a room when I walk in and draw everyone out and get everyone to mingle with each other and feel welcomed.. So a new Scribe is born.. Now I get my presentation.. There are 30 minute presentation & 60 minute presentations. I get "Leading Change" a 60 minute presentation, which I am told is the most important, pivital presentation of them all (comment made in a verbal public meeting with all staffers present, not something said privately where each staffer is told they have the most important presentation) "Not to put pressure on you, but your presentation is the first after comeing back from a 2 week leave from the course.. You must get them back into the frame of mind of what they are here for.. It is the most pivotal presentation".. Ok, let me tell you about my EDGE training (which I took before I was asked to staff WB.. Because as DTC, I should have it).. I totally messed up my impromptu presentation (losy without alot of rehersal & practice), I did ok with my planned presentation.. But in the end they have you write something on a memo card (I forget the question asked).. But I wrote.. "I am so glad my trainers have to do this presentation stuff, and I never have to do it, ever again".. To the utter dismay of the current Council Training Chair & past Council Training Chair, who took the time to sit me down and tell me why I wanted to do some of the training myself.. Who recommeded me to the WB course director to put on his list of WB staff potential people? It was the current Council Training Chair... I firmly believe she had a bug in the WB course directors ear when I was handed this particular presentation also.. I truely believe I am on staff to hone my presentation skills and as a way to bond with the Council and district Training Chairs.. I would say at least 40% of the staff are the District Training Staff.. When you look at the top leadership positions on staff more like 80%.. Many reasons for this, those that are District Training Staff (DTS) are interested in in training, so have a natural interest in wanting to be included in WB and even staying for a few years & climbing up the ladder to someday Course Director. Since these folks get high on the staff ladder and able to choose the staff, other trainers & District Trainers will be the people they get to know as to dependablity, and willingness to help when called.. So other trainers will be in their eye, then too other district/council staff members they rub elbows with.. But, lastly.. Yes WB I believe is a place that the Council Training Staff use to train up their District Training staff, and also bond with them.. Not sure if anyone else sees this as a good thing, or of a "good ole' boys" group.. But, really I do not see anything wrong with it as long as they are not a static group of the same guys year after year who will never let anyone into their ranks.. They just pick their staff from a smaller pool of Scouters known to be helpful, and Scouters who are interested in Training other Scouters, rather then some guy who helps with their unit, but is unknown to them. So yes, WB staffing can also be used as a tool to hone the skills of the Staff members also.. It is stated, and I am already seeing this as true.. You are introduced the lessons of Woodbadge as a participant, but as a staffer you have the time to really learn the lessons and put them into practice(This message has been edited by moosetracker)

SP - maybe another good reason they do not take you for WB staff unless your are involved in other things at District/Council level..

deaker - Eamonn is correct.. I was reading into it that you had been asked by both groups and was considering which one you wanted to help with.. Woodbadge definatly has a line-up of people wanting to be asked, you can let the course director know you are interested, but will most likely be put on a long list, and they may or may not call you.. They look for people with the right personality and has worked in Council or district long enough that others will vouch for you being someone that is dependable.. You have to commit to be at ALL staff meeting never missing a single one, and be someone that will not backout midway.. The NYLT, as said is known to have more difficulty getting staff, but they also will ask who they would like to be on staff.. Both want those who are dependable, and take the positions seriously enough to work at home on your presentations and not just come in and try to wing it (usually resulting in a poor presentation).. Also, they normally want the personalities that walk into a room and command attention, or light up the room with their personalities..

I have never staffed an NYLT either, but we are starting to merge NYLT staff trainings with Woodbadge staff trainings.. This is what I am seeing and those who staff NYLT can correct my mistakes. NYLT has a few adults on staff, but most of the positions are run by the boys.. NYLT seems to have the same presentations as Woodbadge, and is very close to the same course (if not the same course), only it is low tech (they do not use power point but flip charts).. They also work more Rah.. Rah.. into their presentations, to keep the boys more interactive during the long presentations. NYLT is harder for them to get adult staffing, due to the adults not knowing much about it, where Woodbadge has an easier time finding staff, so you may be more appreciated doing the NYLT staffing..

rraffalo - RichardB. may swing by again, he may not, you are chancing it when you have such a short narrow window. He does not live on the board like some of us.. You can try to send him a private message, or use the email I provided you earlier in the thread, which is his official "work" email. The COR already siding with the CC is bad news.. Unless they are both just interpreting the Tour Plan and have no personal feelings about safety issues, then without a committee vote, the COR can put stricter rules in place above and beyond BSA policy, based on a personal view of what saftey net they wish to hold for the Crew.. OK.. I was going to hold of on this "different perspective" seeing that RichardB, sounded like he may agree with your interpretation (as long as your crew is not co-ed).. But, seeing that with or without RichardB's blessing, you may have to decide to fly back or not.. I know you are looking at this fly back as $600 extra expense that the CC & COR is demanding of you.. It is based on the weekend your family happened to choose for the reunion.. Suppose your family had choosen a different date, say 1 week earlier.. Had they done so, would you have gone to both the reunion & Sea Base, even though it would have meant flying to CT and flying home, then the next weekend flying out to Florida.. Had the date for the reunion been different that $600 would have been spent unless that would have forced you to decide on doing one and not the other.. I guess what I am saying, is the dates of the two events give you an opportunity to SAVE $600 dollars on plane fare, an opportunity you would not have had had the dates been different.. What the CC & COR are doing is not allowing you the opportunity to save that money.. It is just a different perspective to make you stop and think, is this due to you really not being able to afford the expense, or are you possibly cutting off your nose to spite your face, and standing on the principle of the matter, and a feeling of injustice..

Ooops.. rraffalo -- RichardB, would be the man you would have reached in National had you used the National email address I posted for you.. I do not know if he is in your favor or not from what he wrote.. I think he may be if your crew is all male, (for some reason I got the feeling that it was).. And that you were not suggesting writing up the tour plan to eliminate the plane trip, (That descussion must be after the first page) So if you had fear of going to National with the question, fear it no more.. Any correspondance with RichardB either in this forum, or through emails to National has been very good.. He is a very easy going fair minded man, (the only one I know who works for National and has intrest in this board) and you should not feel intimidated by him at all.. But, sounds like he would like you to go to your council and have your council then reach him..

KC9DDI - You express my view on this situation exactly.. Except he may have to knock it up to National if the CC views their Councils information as bogus and only Nationals as accurate.. First you have to knock the idea out of the CC's head that they are following BSA guidelines. If she feels she is following policy their is nothing for the Committee to vote on. You should not vote as a committee to disregard BSA policies(I wont say can not, because committees have, but that will not win you any arguement either).. Once it is shown not to be BSA's policy, then they would need to have the Committee vote to make the rule stricter for their unit.. So it is your opinion against theirs who is interpreting the BSA Tour permit correctly and if that is all you have, they win being a key 3 of the unit, and you a parent of a scout. Veiws on this board to if you are right or wrong, or who else has done something similar, will not sway your CC or your Council, or National.. They like your CC will tell you how they interpret your situation in regards to the Tour Plan. But you can not go into Council or National ready to argue your cause, simply you need them to clarify the intent of the Tour Permit in this regards, per their interpretation.

We have tried to educate them.. I am the District Training Chair, but it falls on deaf ears.. And our family IS moving on YEAH!! I am already out, husband will be out at end of school.. Son.. Well he is moving out of troop to Asst Cub Master, but will not be in charge of Tour Plans any more.. The Unit will not leave due to this incident.. They have been with the CO since 1943, and have a rock solid relationship with them. Except for a few years when our old COR passed away, and the new one came on.. The COR is as much involved as the CC, which for the most part causes a tight bond that is not broken over disagreements.. Yeah it's making sure the BSA picks up any cost of anyone sueing them for a problem.. Not whether your personal medical insurance pays or BSA.. Our dearly departed old COR had grown up in BSA having a father in the buisness, then was a DE herself, and when she barked our Council jumped up and listened.. But this insurance thing she had wrong, and trying to tell them this saint of a lady had something wrong is like telling them that snow is made up of lead particles, and the earth is really flat..

Yeah, but remember National keeps tightening the rules due to one time issues that caught them up in large financial lawsuits. And it does not matter how you interpret the Tour Plan rules, how I interpret them, how Beavah interprets them or if you get 50 people on this board who agree with your interpretation. Right now you have to figure out how does National interprets them, but that is to see if it will sway your CC or if not your COR to rule in your favor.. Because Bottom line it will be the CC & COR who will make the decision. COR will trump your CC.. If COR does not get involved in unit issues then your CC will need to be convinced their interpretion is incorrect.. Then it should SHOULD be a committee vote to pass a rule in the troop to tighten the rule.. But the COR can just voice their opinion, no committee vote, and trump the CC.. If they support you, you are golden.. We have lived with our COR requiring us to fill out a Tour Permit for EVERY outing regardless of it it 5 minutes from the normal meeting place held at the same time, even though our Council stated we did not need a Tour Permit for anything in-town. With the new Tour Plan we should need to fill a Tour Plan out except if out of Council or any of the other activities listed.. Guess what? We still need to do a Tour Plan for EVERY outing.. Why?? Because our COR requires it.. Why do they? Because someone put the fear in them that the insurance will not kick in without it.. We can throw them all sorts of paperwork from National stating different.. Does not matter. They have the belief this must be so, we can not shake that belief.. So guess what the Tour Plan is done for every little outing which has us stepping off the CO's property.. Way it is.. Their stricter rule will trump Nationals, regardless of how much their rule makes us bang our heads against a wall.

Guys, it is not the father/son travels that is the issue. It is the lack of two-deep leadership with the units travels that has the CC concerned.. And the CC does have legitimate concern based on the iffyness of air travel.. If for some reason the Father/son do not make it to Florida on time due to weather, that leaves one adult for the seabase trip, and Sea base will not let them go without the 2 deep.. Waste of time, money and total frustration & disappointment for the kids.. I am sure if there were 3 Adults on this trip, 2 with the the unit then the Father/son meeting up would not be an issue. I will be curious to see what National does in interpreting it, because to me the answer is a 50/50 shot either way.. I see both sides of the coin on this one, and both have legitimate arguments.

I know the issue is more the CC suggesting the lone flight for your son is better then the flight of the 6 with the one adult.. But barring that, our son flew alone to Florida and back every year from about 12 yo to about 16 yo.. A little bit of extra caution on our part was that we would drive 1.5 miles to a certain airport when another was .5 miles away, due to the fact it was the only airport offering non-stop, non-change over flights. One of us was allowed into the gate with him to watch him get on the plane, and take off.. His Grandparents were on the otherside to pick him up.. And the flight attendents were made aware he was a minor traveling alone, so that they kept an eye on him during the flight, and accomidations would be made to watch him should the flight get forced by emergancy into redirecting and landing in somewhere other the Florida.. Done right it is fine for a minor to travel.. Is it better for him to travel alone over the 6 with one adult. No.. But, it isn't awful provided the flight is non-stop.. As you can tell from our extra travel to the airport on our part, there was no way I would put him on a plane that had him change flights mid-way though.. What makes your CC think the Council interpretation of the Tour plan if it does not meet with yours is over-riding the Tour plan?.. It is just that they either interpret the Tour plan the same or different then they do, not that they would think that they have the power to over-ride it.. And dealing with Tour plans from many units they have probably been hit with similar problems.. Beavah - the intent of having him contact the Council about the rules.. Is not to get them involved in the fight, and try to tell the CC she has no ground to do what they are doing. True they will not do that. The intent is for him to get a more official interpretation of what the Tour permits intent is about. The council could interpret it the same way as the CC or not.. Well rraffalo - If you are sure about your convictions, you can bump it up a notch and go and ask National Health & Saftey (those who penned the Tour plan) what their interpretation is.. Again their is a chance they will interpret similar to the CC, or not.. But would your CC care to say that National is overriding Nationals meaning of the Tour Plans intent?? http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GotQuestions.aspx I both cases you should just word the scenario, to council and to National and leave anything about the conflict between you & the CC out of it.. As Beavah said they will not intervine in that and you will probably get a response to follow you CC's rules.. What you want is if they see a problem with your travel plans from two destinations with only one adult on the first leg of the journey.. That is it, their basic interpretation of the Tour plan in this scenerio.

For scout Master you need 5 courses 3 are on-line 1) youth protection, 2) fast start, 3) This is scouting. then two courses are in person courses.. 1) "Scoutmaster & Asst Scoutmaster Specifics" and the 2) "Intro to outdoor Leader Skills".. I know when people finish both of these courses, we will give them the patch (well it is included in the course cost they paid, so not really free..) But, if you have all 5 of these training you and it is not issured by the course trainers, you can always go to the Scout store and buy one for yourself.

Ok.. I have been out of a troop, and only at district leader for 2 years, so my info is a little dated and you can choose to use it or not. 1. Does your Troop actively recruit 2nd year Webelos Cub Scouts? Yes. 2. If it does what methods are used and what is the approximate success percentage per method? We invited them to 2 different campouts.. One similar to resqman is a thanksgiving campout.. Turkeys have been dutch oven, deep fried and trash can. Another is usually the Fall camporee. Pretty successful with about 90% crossing over, but then will loose about 25% befor the year is out. 3. On average how many Cub Packs does your Troop recruit? We only recruit from our feeder pack.. 4. If the Troop does not recruit where do find your new Boy Scouts? Any additional information will be very helpful. I think part of what resqman is refering to was discussed in a recent conversation that went on. http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=318679 Anyway alot of us here belive that if a DL has been with a den since tiger a) they are burnt out.. b) they may have been great at running the younger dens, but not the right personality/skills to run webelos.. c) There is no good training to get them to understand the way the Webelos program should be run differently (and the moving of the CS specifics course is much worse at explaining the differences then the in-person course, but if they have been DL for the other dens, most likely these people were not going to to the specifics course thinking there was nothing new to learn. If Webelos do not drop out during the Webelos years, they a) don't want to continue into the troop, enough is enough.. b) aren't prepared for the differences of the Boy Scout program, since their Webelos was not a transition into what to expect from a troop..

Let us hope that if you can't go, someone can replace you.. If the trip is cancelled the money still is owed SeaBase, and if airfare etc is already purchased you most likely all lost that also. Phone your council, don't email and as I stated start with the receptionist, if they do not do the tour permit they will know who it is that does do it and direct your call.. The person who does the tour permits is a very popular person those who phone in will be looking for..