moosetracker

Packsaddle - we crossed in posts.. Actually you and Eagledad arguing over knot tying at a BOR or EBOR seems strange to me, because that is a question that is taboo.. It is considered retesting, and you are not to retest.... So both of you are wrong to even think it is appropriate to ask at a board.. As you can see with what TAHAWK showed with the current Training on BOR's it is not mandated, but highly recommended.. So with that - For normal BOR's highly recommended is always that the boy come in and give the scout salute and do the scout law and oath... (These all may be considered to have right/wrong answers).. But unless the boy is First Class or Life, you don't ding them too much if they get flustered. Highly recommended is definitely some form of questioning to get the boy to tell you in some way ways to improve the troop.. So the "If you could change anything in the troop, what would it be?" would be highly recommended or some form of.. Also for Eagle Boards I know the highly recommended Question is something like "What will you do as an Eagle Scout to give back to Scouting?" Because they want the scouts to know that it is not the end of the road once they earn Eagle, but rather that people will expect and look for certain things from him if they know he is an Eagle scout..

Thanks TAHAWK ... I am correct, that the head of our Eagle Board definitely took this training... WOW.. even the question he uses is pretty much word for word..

packsaddle - Isn't that pretty much any question asked in a SMC or in an BOR or EBOR... Questions that try to get the scout to think, ponder, perhaps are difficult for him to come to a decent answer without some thought and reflection.. But, which really have no right/wrong answer... If you could change anything in the troop, what would it be? What is the most challenging part of Leadership to you? What was your most challenging Merit Badge and why? What will you do as an Eagle Scout to give back to Scouting?

But what do you consider stupid?... Should it only be those on the Eagle Board with the positive attitude? You questioned our board asking the Scout to discuss how he follows the 12th point of the Scout Law.. You felt to do so was an ambush and was being preachy.. Yet from all I have learned from this thread, the head of our board not only asks the question in a perfectly correct manner, the scout may explain something about his spiritual beliefs or he could skirt around anything personal and just state actions he does in his everyday life that shows he is being reverent.. Action rather then philosophical discussion.. But, if the scout goes down the trail of his religions beliefs he knows to be accepting of what he hears no matter how off the wall it could be, this is how he has trained everyone on his board to be.. I am now suspecting the head of our board is so spot on, that he did not come up with this on his own.. I suspect he went to some sort of National training about how to conduct a proper Eagle Board.. In short the adults on my districts Eagle Board ARE following the process.. They are not asking stupid questions and they have a positive attitude.. Yet in your book they were suspect as being abusive.. You simply leapt to that conclusion.. So if National is recommending Eagle Boards to add this question to what they ask (If they haven't been doing so for years now), and you find out your Board will ask some form of this question at the board based on your interrogation of all the Adults on the board before you allow your scout to attend... Are you going to attack them immediately for the question, or will you simply make sure they hold the correct attitude on how to receive the answer? What will you do if you decide your scout can not attend the EBOR because the board will ask him about Reverent or Duty to God? If you complain to the Council or National about them asking this question, do you really think they will agree with you that it is a question which should not be asked? If not, will you tell the scout he will have to forget about making Eagle because he can not attend an EBOR?

You do not have to give the scouts pat answer.. But, you can give them knowledge about BSA's viewpoints about religion and that Adult Leaders are to be open and non-judgmental of a scouts religious viewpoints no matter how weird.. And you can give them practice with thinking about and answering the question if hit with it in either SMC or BOR for the lower ranks.. But, if you treat the subject as taboo, and your scouts are unprepared, that is your call.. When BSA started making a big deal over conservation with adding in "Leave No Trace" some troops poo pooed it and did things the old school way.. So these troops get to a camporee where several stations deal with the patrols having knowledge of basic "Leave No Trace" procedures to successfully navigate the challenge.. The troops didn't prepare the scouts so they do poorly.. The fault of the camporee organizers?? Duty to God, like it or not is part of Scouting.. If BSA is going to require everyone to make a bigger deal of it, then they do now.. You either prepare your scouts for that change, or you ignore doing so and let them sink when caught unprepared.. Your choice.

Packsaddle took your post and went one way with it, I went the other.. Am I thrilled with the changes?? No.. Do I think there will be problems rolling this out when they have left BSA's position on "Duty to God" clear as mud, because they themselves have not felt the need to address it in any training material to date?? Yes.. That being said, your scouts have the potential to hit this question at some point in their scouting Career.. It should not be at an EBOR, in which this question may start popping up in more EBOR, because who knows if the Eagle Boards are being instructed to ask the question.. Maybe so many Boards do ask the question because they have been requested to ask it for years now.. So Mozart, you can mutter to yourself, and not say anything to your scouts about it.. But walk into an EBOR with a big stick ready to use it on anyone on that board who dares to ask the question.. Thereby doing damage to your scouts reputation as being confident enough to handle the situation for himself.. Or you can take the advise being offered in this thread and figure out a way to prepare your scouts to be able to navigate this line of questioning for themselves.. They should know what BSA's views are about Duty to God, and ideas on how they can convey their duty to God without getting bogged down in the trenches of explaining every sticky detail of their religion.. They should know when a Scouter may be getting too personal with the question or too judgmental with the answer and they should know how to respectfully "school" them about it, and move the topic back to the non-personal side of things.. If you can prepare your scouts, they will shine if they are prepared.. But to prepare them, you will need to figure out how to train them for this possibility.. To train them you will need to get over your queasy feelings on the subject.

With your line of thinking Mozart the scout could trip up on any points of the law.. Q. How have you lived up to the Oath and the Law? A. Well yesterday I did pretty good, I took out the trash and saved a kitten from the tree, but last week was not so good as I lied to my mother that I was going to meet Pete after school but I was really in detention because I was caught smoking in the bathroom.. But last month was rough some good some bad.. I pestered my parents for the new IPhone since all the kids are getting them, when I know the one I have is working just fine, and I lied to the SM about having anything to do with the bent tent pole when it was bent when Billy & I were tussling over it, and I ran away from a spider.. But, on the other hand I did take a shower daily, I stood up for my friend Barney when the school bully started harassing him, I went to church 2 out of 4 Sundays, and I kept old lady Pritcher company when no one else would because she just prattles on, and on and on.. Seriously? When asked how the scout lives up to the 12th point of the law why couldn't his answer just be "My religion believes in being helpful and caring for the planet that we have been given, I help in the troop with the younger scouts and at home with the chores, and I help at Christmas & Thanksgiving with collecting food and toys for the needy... I believe I help care for the planet by taking a lot of Conservation training both in and out of scouts and passing a lot of good ideas along to my troop, I also help with local recycling projects." Done... No need to delve into the fact that the Scout belongs to the religion of the rock and what the ins and outs for his religion are all about..

LeCastor - I see your point that Baden Powell saw god in the Judeo-Christian sense.. Does not mean that BSA sees it that way, it was formed by using Baden Powells BS as a model, but it was always it's own organization, and it did create different policies right from the start.. We do not do our duty to our king either.. Perhaps BSA did start off with BP's idea for God, which is why it is stated that way in their policies .. But BSA's actions show they have changed from that opinion. As others have stated over the years as the world got smaller due to being able to travel faster and more comfortably, and being able to talk through technology to anyone in the world, people grew to understand and respect the views of others even if those views are way different then their own..

My memory is failing me.. I know I've been gone for a while, but my memory had Fred being one of those I would have long debates with over my liberal views vs his conservative ones.. Hmmmmm... Must have had the wrong Fred.. I have posted 2 links on this thread.. I think they are in conflict with each other on this very point.. But, when I started a post about it, I found the first link was a little more sketchy on what to do with the non-believer scout while the 2nd one basically said "Throw the bum out".. So when I saw it wasn't as black and white a comparison, I scratched the post.. http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-scouting/ (Oct 3, 2014) Q. How do you handle advancement when a Scout says he doesn’t believe in God? A. Bryan, thanks for the opportunity to address this very timely question. The shortest answer is that we should help Scouts and their families come to realize that a belief in God is integral to Scouting and is a key element in character building. This does not reflect a change in BSA policy nor does it place Scouters in the role of religious leaders. (Yadda, Yadda, Yadda) http://www.bsa-discr...god_policy.html (June 24, 1991) Q. What harm would come of admitting young people who can not support the BSA position on duty to God? A. The Scout Oath and Law have served as the foundation of Scouting for over 81 years. It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting to allow selective adherence to one or more elements of the Oath or Law. To do so would result in an organization that lacked the clear definition enjoyed by the BSA. So the good thing is the answer that says allow them to stay is the more current statement.. But, if so then if this view is true then if the statement made in 1991 was ever true, wouldn't that means at some point reflect a change in BSA policy? I know there are debates about how far a scout can advance without a belief, but both these seem to be more about answering the question as to whether you kick them out or let them stay until they figure it out for themselves what they want to do..

By definition having a religious belief is "a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny;" and has nothing to do with considering yourself a member of an organized religion.. But, that is where I think some well meaning Scouters will trip up.. You can have a very personal religious belief where your superior being conforms to no beliefs of an organized religion.. Religion of Moosetracker, party of one... The religion of the rock, the religion of the tree, the religion of the streetlamp.. Seriously my sons belief which mixes Greek mythology and nature, the religion of Moose (son of Moosetracker).. You will never get a religious award for your personally crafted religion, but your beliefs are acceptable to BSA.. How many Scouters will get this wrong? How many parents will look at the cubscouts rank requirements and think they don't fit in because they do not believe in or belong to an organized religion.. They may even ask for advice, and get the wrong answer from a Scouter who erroneously believes you have to have to choose your religious beliefs from the belief system of some established religion (or it has to be from a Christian religion, or at least a religion who has a physical God).. Here is someone who is having a hard time expanding their concept of what is acceptable religious belief.. I believe Mozart's fear of this change is not only a fear of other Scouters abusing scouts with these changes, but his own confusion about what BSA will consider acceptable.. Sure I can come up with stories of definite abuses.. Someone who was a well known forum member here, got booted out of scouting by members in his district for not being Christian even though he did have a belief, (I think it might have been Wiccan).. I think he went further up the chain and all sided with his district.. This has happened before the change, and will continue to happen.. I don't know if this change will increase this type of abuse or not.. More, I see a lot of people being confused by what would be considered an acceptable religious belief.. How many would consider my son's valid?.. How many will accept the religion of the rock.. When I stated I was looking for a statement that said BSA would be fine with the religion of the rock even NJScouter found it difficult to believe anyone in BSA would say something like that. Ok, I will not call us abby-normal, but I do think those on the forum having spent a lot of time discussion to the nth degree lots of stuff, I would say we are more informed then most scouters.. Here are six pages of post that say how confused we are about this subject.. Imagine the less informed scouter broaching this subject.. (Hopefully I have stated this in a way that is acceptable to Eagledad, in proving confusion there will be confusion of the masses, and not the one dark horse example..

So far we have been enjoying the new forum.. A few quirks, but not many.. Welcome back.. I too took a long Hiatus.

Sounds like a great scout meeting.. I bet the scouts enjoyed themselves.. Just to note your statement: We have a few people posting here that as a troop they camp with adults a good distance away from the scouts, and about a year or two back it was ok for a patrol to do their own patrol (not troop) campout no adults, but the rule was changed to disallow that, and very few could ever do that.. We are the country of the neurotic parents, and they would probably sue for the moon if something happened, especially without adult supervision.. We still have something set up that a patrol can do a day adventure alone (I think, unless pulled recently).. I believe more troops will do this, at least letting them hike around without adult supervision, while the adults stay in base camp.. Don't know if any would consider a youth only day trip which consisted of meeting at a certain time in the parking lot of the CO, doing the activity and returning home at a certain time.. Say something like a bike trip, or a sailing / fishing trip.. etc..

Mozart - perhaps why our board just asks the scout to explain the 12th point of the law which is "Reverent", not "God"... I think the head of our board more often uses "Higher power" himself whenever I have heard him speak of it, and it probably would be a good thing for Scout Leaders to try to adapt to.

Yuck, that will be messy... How many times have I taken an Adult App and then later had to chase down the person because I forgot to check if they signed the place that was on the back of one of the pages rather then on the front... Oh, about half the amount of times I have taken Adult apps... This will be another thing I will forget and have to chase down people for..

Nah... I think God is not as concrete to BSA as you are thinking it is.. Take this in the Q & A I pulled from this link : http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa-god_policy.html Q. How does the BSA define religion? The BSA does not interpret God or religion. That is the role of the Scout's family and religious leaders. Q. What religions are involved with Scouting? Virtually every religion is represented in the BSA. Q. Some people maintain that God is a tree, a rock or a stream. Would a person believing such be eligible to be a member of Scouting? The BSA does not seek to interpret God or religion. The Scout Oath states a requirement for a Scout to observe a duty to God, and the Scout Law requires a Scout to be reverent. Again, interpretation is the responsibility of the Scout, his parents and religious leaders. If a tree, a rock or a stream can be interpreted by people to be God, then why not natural power..? From what I see BSA has no problem with Shinto.. I know this was not the exact quote I was looking for earlier in which someone said a person could state that they believed a rock to be their idea of a higher power.. But, put differently this is also stating that BSA is fine if you want to say that a rock is what you consider to be a higher power.. And it is not from a newspaper article, I am sure the quote I was looking for was something official also..

So why don't you like the Shinto scout?? To be honest, I never heard of Shinto and so had to look it up and BSA's view to it from all I see, BSA is OK with it, so why aren't you? http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/faiths/index.htm http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Membership/ReligiousDates.aspx - do a search for Shinto, it is on the BSA Calendar, but a word in the midst of yadda-yadda Also there is a audio/book, that says it BSA Shinto, but not sure if that BSA is really OUR BSA or the letters stand for something else. http://www.gadgetsandpresents.com/blksn6203.html

Eagledad is calling us abby-normal.... If you think taking fabricated examples, or one time examples to make a case is something only scouters on this board do... Let me invite you to some of our committee meetings which can be knock-down drag-out and also some of our scout parents... It really is not an abnormality of the scouters on this board to use this technic when arguing passionately for their case.. So I consider scouters on this board to be quite normal to the scouts, scouters and scout parents that I meet in person. I therefore unclassify us as abby-normal..

Hopefully those units that are going to be over the top controlling on the issue of religion have already been doing that, and the boys have either chosen to live with it or walk away, let us hope this change does not give them a feeling they have more license to harass.. Which leaves the units that have stayed away from this topic and left it to the family.. If uncomfortable today, they will be uncomfortable tomorrow to broach the subject regardless of BSA saying now you gotta do it.. So, yes.. I hope there is some training offered.. Maybe not an official BSA training ever SM must take, but more a topic offered at a Scouting University, or a Scouting Kickoff, or some informal training offered to adults while at summer camp with there scouts in tow, who have nothing to do while the scouts are off doing merit badges..

I was looking for some statement made in some official BSA documentation something about a boy choosing a rock as their higher power and that would be fine.. I know I had found it once or twice in the past, but couldn't today (so if anyone knows where it is, maybe they can post it.) Anyway in my search I stumbled upon this piece, which is a blog in the Scouting magazine so maybe it was in the actual magazine and other of you have seen it, but I thought it addressed a lot of what we have been discussing.. First seems that it is not unusual for our EBOR to discuss Reverent or duty to God, so Mozart's concern that we are breaking a rule and retesting, do not seem to be shared by BSA.. Second, BSA is going is suggesting that the CS requirements do stay within the family and not to discuss them in the den for den leaders to approve or not.. Third - that a boy can be in scouting and not believe in God, can't get Eagle (I am unsure about other ranks) but can be in scouting, fourth - at least per this Scouter (who is deemed a BSA expert on the subject) - this change is supposable done to correct the scout hearing about duty to God for the first time at an EBOR, rather then what we think that it is to shore up a fight to open the doors to atheists or red meat to the conservative right (hmmmmmm... I will take that with a grain of salt.) http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-scouting/

Yeah it's not really an area, it is more based on each CO ... We have been in units with weak CO leadership, you find them to sign the forms and that's it.. We have been in ones with very strong CO leadership.. the strong CO seem to have the better running units from my personal experience.. The troop my son finally landed in has a very feisty firecracker COR, she not only ran our units but when she said jump the Council would jump.. She knew who ran council and since there were few COR's getting involved at council level she knew she carried a big stick.. But, she was this little bitty lady, who knew her stuff having grown up with her father working in BSA all his life, and her brothers going through BSA, and she herself had been a DE.. Think someone like Hetty on NCIS-Los Angeles running your units.. The Pack we were in had a softer CO, but with a presence, while we were there the COR of the organization was also a parent of a scout.. They sometimes got involved at unit level, never at council level and wrote checks to send scouts in need to camp.. The last Pack I was Unit Commissioner for the IH was also the COR, and he would show up for some committee meetings, Blue & Gold and some Pack meetings.. He once or twice was the deciding vote when the Pack couldn't agree on something.. But, that was less of a success, not for the CO, but couldn't get parents to take on leadership roles.. The two troops we tried and moved on from because they were totally not being run right, had the CO's that you just located to sign forms..

I never thought of the red meat to the conservative right.. I always thought it was to strengthen a legal fight with atheists, but that is a totally plausible thought.. Really both are, killing two birds with one stone so to speak.. I also agree that conservative Christians can take this and run with it.. I see plenty of out-of-hand moments ahead, and rethinking and changes ahead as they find some of their zealot religious right folks take this way out of hand and drive scouts out of the program.. While religion can have a place in BSA, it can not become a thorn in it's side..

Mozart I don't know how preachy you can get with a streetlight and little green men from Mars.. My son has sat on this board and probably will again when he moves back into the area, his belief is wild I don't quite know it, but I know it is some concoction of Greek mythology and nature.. He has no problem with this board, but was put off when the guy his wife & he asked to officiated the wedding (it was not a priest but someone from the Masonic Lodge who had a license to marry) said he wouldn't marry them until he knew they had some religious belief, he was fine with his wife's normal belief only she was a "stay at home" Christian, he wasn't too happy with my sons belief and tried to tell him that he needed to believe differently.. The guy ended up marrying him, but I think it was only because my son bowed to the wants of his soon-to-be bride. Anyway when my son went through this board himself, he had not defined his Greek mythology/nature belief, he was still "questioning" and "in search of".. That was fine enough for the board to pass him.. The only problem answer really would be "I am an atheist", or "I don't believe in God" (no explanation as to what you do believe which kinda also says I am an atheist.) I can see you being sensitive on the subject you see a trap.. Really if the scout just understands the meaning of Reverent and can define it, he would be good.. All scouts should at least know the meaning behind the 12 points of the Scout Law they rattle off weekly. But I understand being sensitive to.. I think a casual discussion in a SM Conference or EBOR on reverent is a lot easier then the new cub Scout because it specifically asks the kids about faith and religion.. Faith may be ok if you are of the opinion that it is still faith to believe in little green men from mars, but religion gets me, as I don't believe in institutional Religion at all, and I believe you can have a belief in a higher power without religion.. So I just wonder how many Den Leaders/ Cub Masters will turn down a kid who does not believe in religion -or- how many parents will walk away from CS just reading the requirements of each rank, and thinking that since they do not attend church on Sunday, their son can never pass the rank requirements. So in some ways I get you being sensitive to the issues. But, with the new requirements the SM conference will start getting the scouts to think about reverent before they ever make the EBOR and an EBOR is nothing but a SM conference with different people in attendance.. It is not testing the scout (as a SM conference is not a retest), but it is having a discussion with him to figure out if he has thought about the concepts and embraced the scouting beliefs.. That does include at least having a basic understanding of what the meaning of the12th point of the scout law is.. I am sure you would be happier if they picked the 1st point or the 4th point as it would not be such a sensitive subject for you personally, but they don't they always ask about the 12th point..

I do not know why, most questions variate scout to scout depending on their scouting experiences but there are 2 or 3 questions always asked, one being to explain what the 12 point of the scout law means to them. Do not know why the guy who heads the board see it as an important question, especially when his belief is he doesn't care if the scout believes in the lamp post or men from outerspace as their higher power.. But the way it is asked I think the scout can skirt their own personal beliefs and just give a definition. No they don't ask sexual orientation, but I know there have been 1 or 2 in our council (not our district) who have waited for the EBOR to volunteer the info without prompting to dare the board to reject them.. They are upset when they are denied and National upholds the decision. It may throw a new troop off, if they have never been to a BOR, but I would imagine most SM's forewarn the scout to think about his answer before going.. I imagine going forward this troops SM is aware of it. But, in the room coaching the scout during the EBOR would be a no-no and look bad for both the scout and the SM.. The EBOR maybe doesn't require you to ask this question (yet).. But, there is nothing stating that you can not ask this question.

Seriously again this will depend on how rigid the EBOR is on this.. Our board has denied a scout who stated he was an atheist, but with another the poor scout said enough to leave doubt but in the end, they passed him.. It was a while back so I don't remember things word for word, but scout when asked said he did not believe in god.. Then board had him go outside with scoutmaster while they discussed it.. The SM explained to scout what his words meant to the board.. When the scout returned (I believe the board was going to not pass him) but he hastily explained he was not an atheist and that he was very open to learning about religion, but he was more believing in science.. But, the scout went to a Catholic school and had listed a Catholic priest from the school as his religious reference. So the board held off making a decision until they contacted the Catholic priest.. The priest had nice things to say, but it was more that he was open to listening and respecting the religious views of other.. I feared this may not have been good enough.. I was happy when the board decided the scout was searching and had not yet formulated a specific view and they passed him. So perhaps this scout can join Mozart in the Scientology religion, they can join together.

Before going to the DE, keep it in house.. If the scoutmaster can get him to back off by laying down the law with this is my job, that is your job.. Don't cross the line.. Then the next line of defense is your COR who has the ability to have the CC do his job, and not the SM job.. If the COR is not helpful, then up the ladder to the Institutional head (IH) of your CO.. After that you can move to your DE, but only if the COR & IH are too weak to pull rank on the CC.. If they are totally backing the CC, then the DE will not cross the line and take the opposite position of you COR & IH.. Any time in there you can also get advise from the Unit Commissioner of your unit (if you have one) but they are more like a counsilor offering advise & suggestions and have no power to pull rank on anyone.