momof2cubs

Shortridge said: "The vast majority of those costs are not passed on to the campers. Thus, donations." REALLY??????? You could have fooled me. Has anyone ever seen a P&L for a camp? If so, how do I find those numbers? How do I know how much is spent on what versus what comes in? I work with financials for a living, and I never, EVER, believe anything anyone ever says about the costs of business until they back it up. I cannot find a council P&L anywhere. And I have looked. And even assuming that what you say is true, I don't believe that the funds are managed appropriately either. I believe that there is tremendous waste and that they use funds for non critical items (i.e. a multi million dollar upgrade of the camp swimming pool) instead of using it for camperships.

I haven't been an advancement chair (yet!) for a troop. But I have been one for a pack for 2 years now. The best advice that my predecessor gave me is this: "Never talk to parents directly". And it has served me well. As an AC I can only go with what is in packmaster. It is your leaders responsibility to make sure all awards are entered into PM. If they are not, that is not my fault. I clutch the PM award report like it is my life line at every pack meeting, because invariably some parent will come up to me and say, "why didn't Johnny get his (whatever award)?" I look at my report, show it to them, show them it isn't there and tell them to check with their leader. It has saved my sanity. I don't know how it works at the boy scout level. Is the AC responsible for making sure stuff is entered into whatever software? Who tells him/her who earned what? Surely not the boy scout himself or the parents right?

Basement said: "A camp with a dining hall, heated cabins with complete kitchens, swimming pool, high and low cope course, climbing walls or towers, lake with boats, rifle and archery ranges and amphitheater." That's what our council has. And they recently spent millions of dollars upgrading it yet again. But try and get a campership out of them and see how far you get. My family and I decided that we will not be making an FOS contribution this year or for the foreseeable future until I see a dedicated effort on the part of national and council to make scouting affordable to all income levels. I am SICK AND TIRED of them talking a poor mouth. I don't even want to know what the salaries are for paid employees at the council or national level. I don't ever know where my money goes. "Maintaining camping facilities" just doesn't cut it for me. The scouting world I know is being run 100% by unpaid volunteers and funded by the blood, sweat, and tears of parents and other involved adults. I am not contributing any more to over paid executives or overly fancy camp properties. This scout mom (and dad) is done.

I don't know much about AHG. I do know that my brother in law's family, who are avid BSA people, chose to start a AHG troop wiht their daughters rather than have them be part of GSA. And these are people that have one Eagle son and another well on the way. So they believe in scouting. But not girl scouting. EDITED: ok, I just went to their web site and a cursory glance told me they seem to be a lot more scouting oriented than the girl scouts themselves! They promote character building, life skills, and outdoors. What didn't you like about it?(This message has been edited by momof2cubs)

Lisabob: I call that just desserts.

If he has good and supportive (and enough!) ASMs, I don't see why he has to be at every single event. I'm sure he should be at most, but for most of us, scouting is not our day job and there are times where it comes down to attending a troop meeting or attending a business meeting. That cannot be helped. As long as the troop continues running smoothly with strong and "with-it" ASMs, I don't see the problem.

Basement: I heard that complaint before. Basically that the GSA program is a pale shadow of the BSA program. The thing is, I would think that the solution is to shore up the GSA program. Many people on this forum and others I know in real life are very active in ensuring a quality BSA program for boys. I suppose that it is a shame that no one seems to care in the GSA side. And I know we will have to agree to disagree, but I do not believe in girls in BSA. I just don't. Most particularly at the middle and high school level. Boys need a place where they can be themselves.

I still don't understand the obsession with including girls in BOY SCOUTS. (cap for emphasis, not yelling). I can only imagine the reaction of GSA if my son wanted to join one of their troops. I believe in a co-ed world for children, but some things ought to remain by boys and for boys.

A couple of years ago, my nephew did his Eagle project and he sent his fund raising letter to us. I just dug it out and sure enough it included a budget. The budget had a line on it: "Food, drinks, and 1st aid materials: $250" So he accounted for it and included it in his budget. He got his Eagle badge, so I assume all this was approved. I don't see anything at all wrong with including it in the budget and feeding your volunteers some lunch.

Yeah, your CO ought to be notified so the donor can receive documentation for tax purposes. Other than that, I don't see any problem with it. I envy you your good luck!

My sons definitely noticed the unfairness last year. And they weren't the only ones. And yes, I did turn it into a teachable moment and we had long talks about fairness, being proud of doing the work yourself, etc. You are right about everything else. Can't change other people, only your reaction to them.

Dean, I think that's part of my point. I have stated this here before, but I believe that everything in scouts should be about making boys into men of character. I had posted on a popcorn thread about a kid whose parents spent $10K in popcorn and wrote it off since they own a business and they used them as corporate gifts. Even though I don't know this, it is very likely that the kid got all kinds of accolades and recognition for basically just having wealthy parents. In my opinion this is a lot of the same thing. When a kid wins on a car he really didn't work on and he gets all kinds of prizes, recognition, and accolades for just having a handy (and ultra competitive) dad, what are we teaching that boy? Like you said, he is learning that daddy will do things for you all the time and you will reap the benefits. Not a lesson my children will ever learn for sure. And yes you are right that you can only control your son's enjoyment. But at the same time, as leaders, I think we have a responsibility to all the children in our charge. No, we cannot control their parents. But we can create an environment where at least in scouting, we teach them the good lessons.

Dean, I am pretty sure that for everyone around this forum, this isn't our first rodeo. A lot of people have been around a long time and they have seen a lot of PWD races. When you know the kid in question and you know the dad, you can tell when dad did 99.9999% of the work. And I wasn't the only one whose eye balls rolled that year. So your kid won on his own. GOOD FOR HIM. But how would he had felt if he after all his work he had came in 2nd to a car built by a dad? Or worse, a professionally made one?

I have a love/hate relationship with it. On one hand, I love the event itself. They boys get really excited and it is a fun event we hold in January when there aren't many fun things going on. But on the other hand, it really does bring out the worst in people, including me. Last year, I was beyond LIVID over obviously-adult-made cars. When you have a Tiger winning every event, and not by a tenth of a second but by a country mile, you know there are shenanigans going on.

My guess is that there are peacocks as you put it, in any position. Our UC is awesome and very helpful. He's an incredible resource on district matters, events, deadlines, etc. He helps us out with re-charter, JTE, and our districts (more strict) quality unit award. He attends all our committee meetings and offers wise advice that comes from eons of experience. He attends our big events (like B&G). In other words, he is invaluable. However, I can also TOTALLY see the three row knots type of guy mentioned by Basement being a giant PITA. I have met several of those at district events. Those are the types that (as I mentioned in a completely unrelated thread) I really don't believe are in it for the boys.

My problem is it sometimes breaks my hearts. You know that boy (yes that one), that you just know put his heart and soul into that car and has so many hopes. I HATE it when he gets beaten by a car made by an adult!

Ha ha ha ha!!! Yes sometimes those underdogs DO surprise you!

We started doing what an adult class last year. There wasn't as much participation as I would have expected, but I think that might change as it become more of a tradition. We hoped (as you did I think) that if the dads were busy building their own car, they will let their sons build their own as well. It didn't have quite that effect. I know a dad where it was beyond obvious that he built his sons' cars. And yes I said SONS' carS. He has THREE boys in the pack and he build all of them. It was VERY obvious if you knew his sons that there was NO way they built those cars. For toots and giggles, I am building a car this year. (This message has been edited by momof2cubs)

Ok, I don't really want to re-hash all over again every argument we've ever had about PWD cars. My question is: what can you (or should you) do at impound to ensure that it is really the boys that are building (mostly) the cars? We do little beyond weighting and measuring. What about you? Do you ask the boys questions? Do you thoroughly examine the car? Do you inspect wheels, axls, etc?

Honestly, I think this is a high class problem. If you can call it a problem at all. I don't see anything wrong with a lady that is trying to make the food experience better in pack activities. They only issue here would be money. You can tell her what the budget is, and if she goes over it, she's on her own. If she's staying within budget and/or paying it out her own pocket, I don't see what's wrong with having "fancy" food. Specially if she's willing to coordinate it! I wish we had her on my pack. I'm sick of eating hot dogs and cold sandwiches at camp outs.

The religious medals are usually earned within the boys' own church. Be careful with it, because they ARE very specific to the religion they are for. So it is not a general "God like" type of thing. For instance, the God and Me (which is specifically for protestants - and I would guess most Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, and Presbytarians would be comfortable with it) program discusses specific Bible passages. It would not be really recommended for Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist boy. The Catholics have also their own medal, and so do lots of other religions. In addition, while I am pretty certain anyone can teach it, at the end of the whole thing it has to be sign off by a member of the religious order (i.e., priest, pastor, rabbi, etc) Since we are a secular pack chartered by our school, we let the parents know about the God requirements and tell them they have to do them at home. We do pass along info if any church in the area is offering the program.

By the same token, saying that calling someone out on the grounds of racism (or in this case, on the grounds of not being in it for the boys) is a cop out also trumps the argument. Just because it might be overused doesn't mean it is not valid on a lot of cases. I have met several adults where it is beyond obvious that they are either trying to re-create their youth or trying to do it over because they wish they had been in scouts as a youth. And you can usually tell by the number of blings they have on their uniforms. The thing is however, they none of us knows what goes on inside anyone's head. Only YOU can answer the question of what your motivation is.

Pack committee meetings are a hit or miss for us. I don't mean in terms of getting accomplished what we need to accomplish, but in terms of how efficiently we are able to do it. We suffer from an over abundance of Class A personalities. And that's not really a bad thing, everyone wants to get stuff done. But you know how it is when there are too many generals and not enough soldiers. All in all, there may be a few blows and more yakking and joking than there maybe could be; but things get done. We meet monthly and meetings usually go over an hour. Probably more like an hour and a half.

qwaze, that all depends on the net income of the business. While it *could* be argued that the $10K was donated instead of being invested on something else (i.e. a trust fund or a capital investment in the company, I could also argue that they expensed it out. In other words, it is possible that they would have had to pay taxes on say, 110K worth of net income and instead they had to pay taxes on $100K worth of net income. Nothing illegal about that, but that's not at all the point I was trying to make. The point I am trying to make is that people that use their offices and other resources to fund raise on the behalf of their children are often praised for their efforts. And that is just FINE. However, the child did nothing to fund raise. There MAY have been a child that busted his butt going door to door and setting up a table outside of Wal Mart that did not received the same recognition because his numbers are lower. While I am almost certain that the child of those people got all kinds of rewards. Yet another reason I LOATHE pop corn sales. It's all about the kid that has the better adult resources instead of the one that works his butt off.

I'm glad you spun this thread KC. I wanted to comment further, but didn't want to go off topic on Ann's thread. Here's a quick story: A couple of months ago, I was sitting at the committee meeting and we were talking about popcorn goals. Now, I freely admit that I LOATHE popcorn fundraising. So I admit my attitude towards this particular Cub necessary evil stinks. However, the popcorn kernell was talking about some pack in the area that had raised $18,000 in popcon last year. Everyone was oohing and aahing and then she said that it was because ONE KID had sold about $10,000 of it. So, stunned, I go: "huh? HOW???". Turns out his parents own a business and bought the $10K of popcorn to use as corporate gifts and wrote off the whole thing. Everyone was SO impressed and wished we had a kid like that in our pack. I was LIVID. I said, and just what exactly did that kid learn? That mommy and daddy are gonna buy his way into everything?? Because you just KNOW that kid got all kinds of accolydes (sp?) for selling the popcorn while the kid that struggled and worked his butt off going door to door to get $1,000 worth was completely outshined. While everyone was trying to justify this, I said: "Why are we here?" Hums and haws. "WHY are we here?", I asked again. And that's what everyone has to ask themselves. And if I cannot be honest with others, at least I have to be honest with myself and admit it when I am not acting in the best interests of the boys.