momof2cubs

Several of you have stated how they feel AHG is "non-inclusive" due to their emphasis on religious beliefs. I think many (MANY!) people would argue that BSA is equally non-inclusive. While BSA might not focus on a specific religion, the Duty to God is VERY clear, meaning that atheists could be considered excluded. And let's not even talk about BSA's gay policy. Although as we have argued many times here, it doesn't seem to be actually written anywhere. Not saying I agree, I'm just saying that from the outside looking in, BSA, AHG, and GSA could be considered non-inclusive of certain groups.

I have relatives whose church charters a pack and a AHG unit. They had a joint Pinewood/Powder Puff Derby, among other joint events. I hear the girls' cars kicked butt!

So let me get this straight: BSA is perceived as being a homophobic, ultra-conservative, para-militaristic, and possibly harboring/protecting pedophiles. GSA is perceived as being pro-homosexual, pro-abortion, ultra-liberal, and possibly encouraging promiscuity. Good. Grief.

So you guys have given me several options for coffee (thank you). Now see what you can come up with so that I can have a comfy bed (without looking like a pansy by dragging my inflatable mattress) and a shower.

Well Eagle, my husband had the same thought and I found it in my stocking this last Xmas. He dislikes camping as much as I do and the only reason he does it is because I told him I won't suffer alone. But thanks for the suggestion. A good cup of coffee, DOES go a long way, but I still don't like it. While I won't even dare wimpyfiy boy scouting by suggesting cabin camping...there are times I do wish I had a daughter so I could cabin camp with her and get out of tent camping with my sons. Of course GSA doesn't have ridiculous rules requires 1:1 camping at the grade school level, so..

qwaze, I didn't mean to break your heart, LOL. Me hating camping has nothing to do with anything in scouting. I LOVE the program and what it has done for my sons. I just don't like it. I need a comfy bed, I need a morning shower, I need my morning hot and not instant coffee. I suffer from seasonal allergies, so spring camping is torture for me,no matter how much Zyrtec I pack. But I will do it because my sons (for now) need me. And if the troop my son just crossed over to last night (SNIIIFFF!!!! - I guess I need to change my name now?) needs me, I will go. But I will certainly not demand that I go.

You know OGE, I know you were joking, but like my grandma used to say "kidding on the square" Whole lotta truth in your post.

Eagle: the answer is yes, BUT they are supposed to have a troop guide that is an experienced/older boy. Don't know the details and don't much care. I told that story as an example as to why some parents just aren't comfortable sending their sons off without them. I'm not really gonna cause a big raucus over it since this happened last spring and my son wasn't even in the troop then. qwaze: possibly. But like I said, the question is not really what are you gonna do to fix it but whether this is indicative of what this troop interprets "boy-led" to be. For the record, I have ZERO plans to go camping with my kid and his troop. I don't really like camping and I only do it under duress (i.e. ridiculous cub scouting YPT rules). But there is the part of my that does have concerns. And I am pretty laid back. I would imagine that in this day and age a lot of those fears are intensified when one is a much more...say..."hands-on" parent?

I'm fine with the less is more approach when it comes to adults at camping. However, I have to say that I am becoming apprehensive as my son crosses over. Thing is I have to be able to trust the teenager that is put in charge during outings. And I have to be able to trust that the adults around WILL step in if there is some serious safety issue. The troop my son is crossing over to is highly boy-led. However, I have heard from another parent (who believe you me is FAR FAR FAR from a helicopter parent) that in one particular outing, his son's patrol grubmaster served undercooked eggs at breakfast and rare meat at lunch. Now before you slam me, I am FINE with my son going hungry because of say, not enough food (i.e. poor planning), but I am NOT fine with him getting food poisoning (i.e. poor supervision). Does that make sense?

SR540: most DEs encourage scouting as a year round program. Summer camp for cubs starts them up on the next year's rank.

Con: the boy scout program will fold within 5 to 8 years. Honestly..how many boy scouts do you get that did NOT come from a pack? My guess is that in any given troop it would be between 1% and 5%. Like Tampa said..most boys by that time have come up with other things to do with their time.

I'll grant you that it is a very different experience. We spend 5 long years drilling into their skulls that cub scouting is a family activity and that BSA does not, in fact, stand for Baby Sitters of America. Then lo and behold, they cross over and we have to start drilling into their skulls that it is boy-led, at 300 ft, etc, etc, etc. But still..if you have a frosty attitude (even if it based on past experience) towards freshmen parents at a troop and discourage them from becoming involved in troop leadership, do not be surprised if 5-10 years from now when current leadership ages out, you have no one to run the troop. While I enjoy volunteering, I certainly do enjoy staying at home during troop meetings and not having to sleep on the dirt on camping weekends. In other words, you probably won't have to tell parents twice to not get involved. Even if you do mean it just the 1st year.

Not to beat a dead horse, but right this minute in these very forums on an active thread about getting new ASMs involved there has already been a condescending attitude towards cub leaders. If we took the time and trained and learned how to lead a pack, a den, a committee, why do troops assume that we will come in and transform the troop into a Web III den? Why not give the benefit of the doubt and assume that these leaders will take the training and learn how assist a troop? Honestly I am surprise that troops get anyone at all to help with leadership if this is how they treat the "freshmen" parents/former cub leaders.

Maybe the 1st step would be not to assume that they will automatically become Web III leaders and encourage them to take ASM training. (refer to "prestige" thread)

I don't care about prestige. But I do care about being talked down to and/or getting condescending attitudes. But you know what, most of you are right. It shouldn't matter. What matters is what's within.

Basement, you surprise me. I may not have "earned the right" (whatever that means) to attend Jambo (not that I could afford it anyways), but that doesn't mean that other volunteers get to be condescending because they think Cub scouting is arts and crafts with mommy. This is an attitude that, by the way, is 10X WORSE when you are a woman cub scout leader. Cubs in my packs DO NOT do arts and crafts with mommy all the time. We have taken them on hikes, we have organized bike rodeos and bike clinics, we have taught them flag football, ice skating, bowling, ultimate frisbee, and kickball. We have taught them to tie knots, fire safety, and some first aid. They camp twice a year, and we can't take them more often because they are not allowed unless a parent comes with them. And it MAY be an issue with seniority, but I have noticed that troops are very quick to dismiss a parent volunteer if she/he only has pack experience. In these VERY FORUMS I have encountered condescending attitudes towards cub leaders. I don't deal with the paid professionals much (none at all if I can help it), but it would seem to me very arrogant and short-sighted on their part. After all they expect/demand packs to meet FOS "requirements" at the same level as the troops, don't they.

Eagle, that could be... I think we may have maybe 1 crew in our district, out of like 80 units. Of course, we are a land-locked district, maybe that has an impact? All the things you list are probably true. However, it seems shortsighted and mean. After all, these men and women are putting just as much time, effort, talent, and probably money to dedicate to young boys. Why make them feel like their contribution is just not as important? And the reason cub scouts may not camp much is because BSA's YPT makes it near impossible. Cub camping requires an adult for every child. Who can take a weekend out of every month to go camping with their son? I have told this story in the forums before, but it is relevant to this topic. Last Spring, I took BALOO training. The training was headed by seasoned boy scout volunteers. When we got to the equipment section, the gloves came off with these guys. He held up one of those puffy, sleep-over types of sleeping bags and said" "THIS is what I took camping when my son was in Cub Scouts". Then he held one of those REI-fits-in-the-palm-of-your-hand-and-weights-0.000005oz types of sleeping bags and said: "THIS is what I take now when we go Boy Scout camping". Guffaws ensued. He did that with EVERY SINGLE piece of equipment he was showing. And laughter afterwards. All that was missing was the pointing and laughing at us poor naive cub scout leaders. I think that story is VERY indicative of how boy scout leaders feel about us. Like we are not "real" leaders and cub scouting is not "really" scouting. And do not even get me started with centennial celebrations. We weren't invited to SINGLE ONE. Because in their words, cub scouting didn't come till later, so it wasn't really "our" anniversary.

I don't know about prestige, but for sure there is a certain...red-headed step-child feeling to cub scouting amongst the BSA volunteers. Like a pecking order maybe? I have experienced a lot of put downs from boy scouts leaders, specially since my son crossed over that my work in the pack is not ever remotely comparable to volunteering in a troop.

I believe in the program and what it teaches. I believe in the countless volunteers that have donated their time to the betterment of my children and thousands of youth across the country. I support my unit and my district. But I won't support questionable finances.

Could be. Doesn't really change much for me. Also, they listed contractor payments (i.e. 1099). The 3 million I mentioned for construction? Yup, a board member.

OGE: I just rechecked. Three executives are also listed as board members (plus the SE). Directors of Development, Field Service, and Support Service. All three at over 100K. The rest of the board members listed are not paid employees.

Btw, Lisabob, you made my point for me. I know the DEs are overworked and it would be impossible for them to pitch to 40+ units. My dirty work comment was related to everyone at the council level, specially executives. And my council listed the executive at over 300K plus two other board members at over 100K. Yeah, I'm not gonna fund that. Not when they turned around and spent over 3 million dollars on salaries for 53 other people and another 3 million dollars on a contractor that did "construction". Which I am assuming is the new swimming pool/bathhouse installed at one of our camps. A fat load of good that's gonna do to poor scouts that cannot afford to go.

I don't understand...why wouldn't he cross over? Why is he a Web I in 5th grade? Did he just join your pack in 5th grade? Why would he want to stay behind in the pack when all his peers are crossing over to troops? I understand that it is is kinda sad to miss out on AoL, but it is not worth taking a year out of his boy scout journey for it. That is one less year to work towards Eagle.

The DE is the only paid professional that I have ever (EVER!!) interacted with (other than the scout shop employees). It's a stressful, thankless, and number-driven job that for sure doesn't pay enough. However, why is that the way it is? I remember last summer talking to the DE during the cub scout day camp. I asked him if he was going to be around that week since it was probably the biggest (if not only) district event going on. He said a lot of the time yes, but that he needed to come up with $10K in FOS donations by Wednesday of that week. His words: "I have no idea where am I gonna get it". I was flabbergasted. It told me the immense amount of pressure these poor guys are under. But the thing is, THAT IS WRONG. It is WRONG to put those guys under donation quotas, new units quotas, new scouts quotas, JTE quotas. It for sure doesn't make me want to donate money. I STILL do not agree to where it is going. And less that 1% of revenue donated back to scouters in need is PREPOSTEROUS. I am done with funding the salaries of over paid executives.(This message has been edited by momof2cubs)

I wouldn't call it an epiphany...this confirms what I have LONG suspected. I have been working at the unit level, I have even forayed into the district level. In the past I have made FOS donations because I was a bit naive and because I had faith in BSA. The more involved I became in the program, the more I started to question financial issues. What am I gonna do about it? I am not sure. I am tempted to broadcast this information from the rooftops and get everyone I know to stop donating. But what is that going to do? Probably give my unit and possibly the district (if am I egotistical enough to think it would make an impact) a bad name. I have probably already been called a few names by council for daring to question their methods. What bugs me is that those FOS people that come to pitch your unit are volunteers as well. The funded salaries people do not even do their own dirty work.