momof2cubs

I know that what I am about to say isn't strictly what this thread is about, but I think it may apply to the "scout law outside of scouting" theme. Today, I chaperoned a school field trip to our Botanical Gardens with my 2nd grader (God help me). After the guided tour, we were given free time to walk around and we separated into small groups. I had 3 boys and 3 girls of which only my son is a scout. They were running, jumping, whatever, as you might expect. They came across a caterpillar. One boy says, "Can I stomp on it?". Instinctively, I said: "You may NOT, we leave NO TRACE!" My sons says, Mom, he's not in scouts!! So of course, as all of you would have done, I launched into a 3 minute talk about how the principles of LNT should apply to everyone in any situation, respecting other life forms in their habitat, blah, blah, blah. And they listened! And they understood! And they did not stomp on the caterpillar. So moral of the story, of course you can apply scouting laws to every day life situations. Even with non-scouts!

Engineer61: I'm not advocating in ANY way, shape, or form what happened at that camping trip. However, things like this happen. They happen, unfortunately, everywhere. And while I wouldn't wish this experience on anyone, let alone my son(s), I would take the opportunity to teach my sons about self-defense, about dealing with bad situations, about discussing things with other adults in charge, about diffusing potentially dangerous situations, about learning how to deal with difficult people, etc. Pulling him out altogether from scouting will teach this boy nothing. And again, we DO NOT KNOW what really happened. Mom says son got "beaten". Maybe. Maybe it was just a shove (not that this is more acceptable). Mom says "no one showed concern for my son". Maybe. But maybe it this incident was the culmination of a long road of dealing with a difficult parent. I am having a VERY hard time believing that a whole bunch of scout leaders just let this incident go and went and defended the older boy. In my time in scouts I have met many many different types of leaders, as I am sure you have too. I have never met anyone that would have let this situation happen with no consequences. Also, maybe the older kid has issues too. Maybe he is OCD, or ADD, or some form of Autism and truly could not control himself (I'm sure everyone here has had experience with these type of boys, no?). Maybe the leaders and parents are aware of it and they are dealing with it and they wanted to explain to single mom the situation to no avail. Single mom wouldn't even meet with anyone to accept an apology! Again, two sides.

I have heard that no matter how flat you make a pancake, it still has TWO SIDES. I am always leery of parents that come into any kind of forum or internet media (facebook, twitter, whatever) and rant about how unfairly their children have been treated in "x" situation. The anonymity that the internet affords allows for a soap box where no one can be questioned. She came. She ranted. She posted a "dire warning". She left. She did the same in real life. Why won't she allow the leaders to discuss the situation? Why won't she allow the troop to try and investigate and rectify the situation? Could it be that maybe, just MAYBE, the boy is not completely blameless? And don't think for a moment that by posting that I am inferring that the older boy's actions were justified. Just that boys are well..boys. Well, kids are kids. Sometimes they can't control themselves. That's why we are all here, aren't we? It's no just about camping, knots, and badges. It's about helping boys become men of character. Along the way, there are bound to be bumps. Facts of life. It's grossly unfair to broadly accuse the entire BSA leadership of a "good ole boy club" based on ONE single incident in ONE single troop that involved TWO boys. And then to walk away from the whole thing.

jr: see, I just don't get this. I am a Web 1 parent. My kid does admittedly still have some growing to do scout-wise. But how is he gonna grow if they don't let him fail? Let me give you a for instance: last spring, he went to Webelos Woods. This is a district event held in the spring for current bears and web 1s. So for my kid, it was the 1st time camping without his parents. The goal of this event is to get the boys started on cooking, setting up a tent, starting a fire, etc in a somewhat safe environment where adults are still around and helping. My kid is a picky eater. I asked when he got back how it went with the cooking. He said: "Well, Mom, lunch wasn't all that great so I didn't eat it. But by the dinner time I was starving so even though I really didn't like how my silver turtles came out, I ate them ALL". He also didn't properly clean his mess kit, which I made him do when he got home (and NOT using the dishwasher) Moral of the story: no kid is gonna DIE because he skips a meal or two. And I was glad he learned his lesson that when you wanna eat, you gotta cook. And when you are really hungry, you eat what's there. I would have slapped those parents.

83Eagle: you will get NO argument from me. Low 20s is WAY too cold for cubs. And most parents! Come on down to this neck of the woods, you have plenty of spring camping opportunities!

83Eagle: there aren't that many advantages to living in the South sometimes, but sometimes you sure gotta LOVE the weather! It was absolutely gorgeous most of the weekend, just a little storm blowing through late Sat nigh. We had of course a campfire session scheduled with stories, songs, and skits. Well we moved it to the pavilion and had a great time! So my BALOO training paid off: just because you don't have a fire, doesn't mean you can't have a CAMPfire! Plus the grubmaster (ahem!) had planned banana boats instead of marshmellows for night time snack, so we built them under the pavilion and a brave volunteer stood in the drizzle to warm them up in the dying fire.

Sometimes it's a lot easier to try to find a BSA approved camp than trying to get one approved; depends on the council. My pack just got back from from Spring Family Camping 2 hours ago. We did it ourselves and had a BLAST. It was AWESOME. There are lots of advantages to going to district events: the activities are planned, the sites tend to be better maintained, it's more structured, you are more likely to be able to have range activities (BB shooting and archery), etc. But doing just a pack wide event can be just plain great. You get to plan the activities and do them at your leisure (well, somewhat). It tends to be quieter, more relaxed, and more fun. Drawbacks: YOU have to plan all the activities I grubmastered this one. Sixty-five people (half adults, half scouts/younger siblings) and it was WAY easier to plan a more adventurous menu since I knew that I wasn't restricted by things like I having to be across a massive campsite by a certain time to do a certain activity. Make sure you have several people with the necessary training: BALOO, Hazardous Weather, etc. Make sure everyone (and I do mean freakin' EVERYONE) is assigned duties: cooking, prep, cleaning, menu planning, food shopping, leading activities, gathering supplies activities, break-up and set-up of the "kitchen" and common areas, etc.

I think it's rude and disruptive to chat in ANY language while trying to work a project at a den meeting. This isn't about the language itself, but about the fact that they are talking during a meeting in a manner that is distracting to the boys, the other parents, and the den leaders who are trying to conduct a meeting. It's hard enough to hold the Tigers' attention for 5 seconds without other people contributing to the problem. Our den is been known to do "sing's up" to get adults to be quiet too! On a related note, I speak Spanish as a first language and people DO tend to get paranoid when hearing too people speak in another language that they don't understand. Human nature dictates that "they must be talking about me". I try to avoid it in the presence of others.

OOPS, I forgot something else: you do not HAVE to start working on Wolf-specific stuff during the summer. I know of many packs that are active year round, mine is not one of them. I live in a somewhat well off suburban area and kids are engaged in lots of camps and traveling so attendance is always low. So we only do fun stuff over the summer and do not have regular den meetings, but pack wide events a couple of times. You can still work on things like belt loops, and just plain fun stuff: hikes, swimming (see BSA rules on that though..they require BSA trained life guards for that), etc. You can also work on Leave No Trace, Outdoor Activity Award, etc.

grmaerika: I am not 100% sure for the "official" rule is with parents after the Tiger year. In the Tiger year it is VERY specific that the parent must attend all functions with the Tiger. In our pack, we keep that rule alive through the Wolf and Bear years. Nothing magical happens on June 1st that allows all of the sudden for a den leader to be able to handle a bunch of 7 year old by themselves. They are still young and boisterous and the DL still needs help. Also, cub scouting is NOT A FREE BABYSITTING SERVICE!!!!! No matter how many times I say that, parents do not get it. We had a parent sign up his boy last fall during our wolf year. He came to one introductory meeting and stuck around. The next meeting, he asked if he could drop off and we said no. We never saw him again. You know what? That's not the kind of parent we want in scouts anyways. I felt bad for the boy, but I moved on. In regards to the Wolf year: get the book. That will help you plan everything out. The wolf year is in my opinion, the driest one of all the cub years. That's just my opinion. In Tigers, is all new and fun. In Bear, you are starting to get into all new fun boy stuff: knot tying, the always popular whittling chip, and there are more choices. But the Wolf year seems incredibly dry to me and we struggled all year long to make it fun and exciting. There are also plan meeting guides that BSA put out last year on the web. When I google wolf meeting plans, it's the first link that pops up. GOOD LUCK!!!!!

Belt loops and pins are fun for cubbies. True the things can get expensive, but our Pack encourages them. 1. We encourage dens and families to work on pins and loops year round. No deadline for earning them for B&G. We award them at every pack meeting (monthly except for January, PWD month) 2. NO announcing loops and pins at B&G. That's for rank only. Also, personally, as a awards chair in my pack, I try to tell leaders and parents to hold off on getting loops and pins in February, so as not to detract from B&G 3. We pay for loops and pins only once. 4. As for the "did he REALLY earn them" thing. It's difficult. We try to inform parents that just because you took your kid ice skating over winter break doesn't necessarily mean he earned the Ice Skating Belt Loop by providing them with the links to the requirements. But unless you are going to make it mandatory to turn in the spreadsheet to prove they did it, you kinda have to go with the honor system. Even with all this, I still get kids earning 10 or 15 loops all at once. The way we see it, it's part of why they pay yearly fees.

Blancmange has the right idea. Something equally heartfelt, but more reasonable seems like a good compromise. And gee whiz, in the current economic climate, is there no one else in your den that has an issue with this? At crossover, a parent is already facing: patrol yearly dues, summer camp dues, equipment replacement, and who knows what all else, and they want you to fork another $100??. Good grief, I am already stressing out about it and I have a whole year before this happens.

While I can appreciate the good intent, $100 seems quite steep of a contribution in my opinion. I live in a fairly well off area, and I think most parents around here would balk at that much money. Interesting this was brought up, since I have been thinking of what to do next year for my webs den leader once they cross over. All I had in mind was ask for a contribution of around $20 from each parent and buy a restaurant gift certificate. Plus flowers for his wife as a thanks. I think people discount the wives' contributions sometimes A spa night (while very nice) seems over the top to me.

I know everyone says that the Tiger year is hard, because they are SO young. But I have to admit that I had the most fun ever with Tigers. The book has so many fun electives, and the whole thing is so new to them! I loved it. Tigers do not become wolves until the end of the school year. Many people say that it is June 1st, in my pack the day after the last day of school is considered the turning point. We end school in late May, the Friday right before Memorial Day. So yes, you can still work on Tiger stuff and there's so much out there. We had a musical meeting (Music belt loop, making instrument, singing songs, playing musical chairs), we had a conservation meeting (reduce, reuse and recycle, LNT, clean-up treasure hunt), we went bowling (bowling belt loop), we visited an ice cream parlor where they learnt how italian ices are made. Fun days!

Pete, there is a big difference between someone that can't read and someone that won't. I'm surprised that there could be anyone that can't read. I just googled it, the US has a 99% literacy rate. I am trying to understand why this person won't take the YPT on-line. Could it be they don't have internet at home? Or even a computer? Maybe it's a matter of informing them they can use the facilities in a library? Or maybe they are not very computer literate? Maybe they just need a little help in learning how to access the internet for instance? I don't mean to be rude, but if they can't read, how are they going to sign off on anything? Or read any of the training material?

It's not a silly question, it threw me off too when I was going through it. The answer is that each of those count towards one arrow point. A wold will earn a gold arrow point for every 10 of those that he completes. So, for example, he can complete 3 from American Lore, 2 from Spare Time Fun (elective 5), 3 from Foot Power (elective 7) and 2 from Be An Artist (elective 12) and earn a gold arrow point. After that, he earns 1 silver arrow point for every 10 electives. So you can pick and choose your electives. There is a caveat: if you are working towards the World Conservation Award, the cubs have to complete every part of 2 out of the 3 electives listed (Birds, Grow Something, Fishing) in addition to the project and Achievement 7.

Don't know if this helps, but for our Family Campings duties are ASSIGNED. It is expected that if you attend, your will do something. This includes: packing the trailer pre-camping, setting up the kitchen area on arrival, various set-up, cooking, cleaning, and fire duties associated with meal times, latrine duty, and unpacking the trailer after. Another thing we do that kinda helps is that duties are assigned to the family, not a particular adult. So if two parents are attending family camping, they can determine who will attend to the duty and who will be shlepping the kid(s) to whatever activities they need to be at. This was helpful since one time, I was assigned to making sandwiches for lunch and my husband was assigned to starting the fire for lunch and both our kids were still in line at the BB gun range at 11:30am. Basically, we would either have to leave our kids unattended or ask someone else to watch them. The family assignment helped with this issue.

jamist, it happens. Specially in the Cub Scouts beginnings (i.e Tiger and Wolf). Parents sign up thinking the kid will look cute in the uniform, they get a nice activity once or twice a month to get dropped off to, and maybe send them camping once a year. They don't realize that it IS a commitment on both the kid and the parent, it is work (but it can be fun work!), it is NOT a babysitting service, and that it could possibly interfere with other stuff. I rather have 20 scouts committed and proud to be scouts than 45 where half of them are only in it half-a$$ed. I stopped taking it personally, because the adults in my Pack are for the most part really awesome people who give their all to make it a fun and successful program for the kids. It is THEIR loss, not yours.

SP: ok, point taken. As an explanation of why the whole thing chafes the hell out of me I'll give you a brief history of my last two years as a PWD parent. Last year I had a tiger and a bear. My kids were all about having a cool looking car (as opposed to a fast car) and didn't do ANY of the things my husband suggested to them would give them a faster car and a better chance at doing better. All they wanted was to cut, sand for a little bit, and paint and decorate the hell out of the cars. Dad and I stayed out of it. So naturally their cars sucked come race time. And they both came home crying like babies. We gave them both a little lesson on hard work and perseverance to achieve results, blah blah blah (you know the speech) and they both VOWED to do better next year. Come this year, they bought the book (with their own pooled money), they read the book, and they spent days and several evenings doing everything they could. Dad did ONLY what they asked help with (i.e. could you help me graphite daddy please?) and they were very proud. So naturally they did much, much better this year. They made it to the finals, but did not win (5th and 11th place out of 80 cars which I thought was pretty great). They felt much better, but I did not. Why you ask? because the winning cars (1st and 2nd place) were cars obviously built by dads. the 1st place car consistently raced 3 to 10 mph faster than the nearest. You tell me they didn't cheat? Or yes, I am sounding like sour grapes. Your call. But I am still happy that the competition taught my sons to work harder for what they want, no matter how old they are.

I am ALL about competition and establishing winners and losers. It's one of my pet peeves these days that we seem to have this "thing" (for lack of a better word) where we absolutely must without a shadow of a doubt Make. Every. Child. SPECIAL!!! I hate that!!!!! We have dumbed down everything in order not to make anyone "feel bad" about not getting something, or not achieving a goal, or not a winning a race, or whatever. So yeah, I am 100% perfectly ok with the PWD remaining competitive. My problem comes when adults obviously build the cars. And not only do they OBVIOUSLY build the cars, but they cheat while building them. Yes it happens. All The Time. And there doesn't seem to be a damn thing we can do to stop it.

We have tried everything we could think of in our pack to make this a fair event. And still almost invariably we have one or two cars that are so OBVIOUSLY made by dads that it's not even funny. It's unfair, it makes me mad as heck, and it discourages boys that work on their own from even trying. We even had an elite race this year that was for dads only, so they could build their own cars and leave their son's cars alone. No dice. I've grown to hate this event.

"Yah, we want to avoid da appearance of impropriety by having a male and female leader not share the same tent, but does anyone see any appearance of impropriety in havin' 10 moms and dads share a great big floor? Really? Da old phrase "get a grip" comes to mind" Hey I hear ya, but strictly speaking when we do the overnights, we violate YP and G2SS rules. No one has ever said a word one about this, but honestly I am just holding my breath on this one. And I gotta be a little honest: when it was my turn to do the Zoo thing with my youngest, it made a little uncomfortable. Plus the snoring was something else! I almost (almost!!) suggested that we made this one a moms and tigers only trip (no dads). Of course I didn't, since it's not always possible, feasible or fair.

pchadbo: we run into this one all the time. Our pack does yearly "overnights" at various places. Usually, these are not strictly BSA programs so the sleeping accommodations do not lend themselves to YP and G2SS rules. For instance: our Tigers do a yearly overnight at our local zoo. The Zoo provides what they call "lodges" (and i DO use the term loosely). They are basically one big room. There is no way to hang any sort of curtain and these are Tigers so either the mom or the dad (or both) must come. Everyone sleeps on the floor. We try to keep the adult males on one side, the adult females on another with the boys in between. but that's the best we can do. Interestingly enough, we have one or two families in our pack whose parents are not married. There is NO WAY anyone is gonna tell them they cannot share a tent during Family Camping... is there?

While the trash talking is WAY out of line and should probably be addressed, where a Web crosses over to is a very personal decision. Ok so it's unusual in your town. Ok, so I can see the troop's SM being a little put off. However, not every troop will be a good fit for every boy. For whatever reason, she wants to go somewhere else. You can't force a scout to be in a particular troop! Think about it, the boy will be (in theory) part of that troop for 8 years! That's a bigger commitment than where to go to college! I can understand your frustration and in some ways your embarrassment over this, but in some ways, it looks like the boys in your pack aren't really given a choice of where to cross over and that doesn't seem right.

Excellent!! Thank you!!