momof2cubs

My only problem with cub resident camps is that they require an adult to attend with the cub; at least my council does. This presents a problem in several fronts with work, the fact that I have another son, and the fact that two nights of camping is just about my and my husband's limit. And I wouldn't have given it much thought other than I recently found out that the girl scouts are allowed to go by themselves for two freakin weeks without their parents. GIRL scouts!!!! Why can't we treat cub resident camp the same way as webelos camp? If the girl scouts can do it, we can't we??? And please don't think I want to treat BSA as a babysitting service. I HATE it when people do that. But I don't see why we have to have 1:1 ratio at cub resident camp.

Oh Eagle92, pshaw!! An hour week right?

When the CC was doing the re-charter, she did tell me that on paper, officially, they can only hold one office. However, in practice, it is very common for people to have more than one. In my pack alone, the cubmaster, the cc, the treasurer, and the COR are all den leaders as well. Thankfully, our dens work with the co-leader concept, so they spread the work among two people. But still...

83Eagle: I wish there were more scouters like you.

And I know you meant it in jest, but that attitude is prevalent. And I'm tired of it. It is condescending and insulting to leaders that work hard at keeping the outing in cub scouting.

Maybe they are run differently in the sense that a web "den" still has an adult leader, while a boy scout patrol has a boy leader. However, in my pack, they boys start to learn leadership in their "den". When they go camping on their own (I mean not family camping), they start training by electing a patrol leader, a grubmaster, a quartermaster, etc. They plan the menu. They help plan the activities. They start learning to cook and clean on their own. Sure, they still get some help from the adult leaders. But it's a gradual process. At the end of the web II year, right before they cross over, they are prepared to be part of a "real" boy led patrol. I think that it is a great preparation for "real" boy scouts. Maybe the reason some troops become Web III is because they don't prepare the boys for boy led patrols by being a "den" adult led their entire web career.

Tampa: I never did understand why some people get so bent out of shape with webelos having "patrols". We do it in out pack. After all, the purpose of webelos is to train them for the transition to boy scouts. I'm going to keep doing it. My son loves his Flaming Arrows patch and cheer.

You know, you may not agree with his method, but you gotta admit he has a certain...shrewdness? I see a future politician on your hands.

Our pack keeps the same numbers until the cross over, unless two dens join forces (it happens sometimes in the Webelos year due to some attrition and to the fact that you can handle 10-12 4th graders but a dozen Tigers is the stuff of nightmares) When the Webs cross over, the den number gets recycled for incoming Tigers. We usually have about 12 dens going on any given year.

Turtle: that reminds me of my husband's policy. He said that when he was growing up, if you showed up to church at Christmas, Easter, and one additional time, you were considered an "active" church member. LOL

Our pack charges annual fees to cover the costs of running the pack. It's fairly high, although competitive with what other packs charge in our area. Scholarships are given on a VERY limited basis. Although I am not involved with that process, it is my understanding that when requested (which is rare) they are usually given with no strings attached, which I have a SERIOUS problem with. It's fine if you cannot afford the fee, but there should be some sweat equity attached to it. In other words, if you kid is attending the pack for free, I fully expect some volunteer time from you in return. But that never happens. As someone else said, if you don't have some skin in the game, nothing will get done. We also have the dreaded popcorn fundraiser. Some percentage of sales go to the pack, and 10% of sales the boy keeps in his "account" and can be used to cover additional costs such as camping, field trips, overnighters, etc.

Tampa Turtle: it depends on he pack and where you live. I our area, people travel during the summer. A LOT. Seems we have a lot of SAHMs that like to visit their out of state family during the summer. Plus regular family vacations, and other camps, or day care, or whathave you. In my personal case however, I tend to avoid summer activities because here in the South it is just ridiculously hot. It's miserable for me. If you live in Tampa, then I assume you understand what that's like. A week of volunteering at summer day camp almost did me in.

Peri: my son is another example. He has a summer birthday, so he turned 10 the summer before he started 4th grade. By crossover in march of this year, he had already all the AoL requirements and *could have* crossed over. By march he was well over the 10.5 age requirement. He didn't cross over(although I thought about it), but decided to do the 2nd year of webelos and cross over this coming March. Our decision was purely based on maturity level. There was a reason we held him back in school and it applied to scouts as well. But the point is, it CAN happen.

Eagle and OGE: I know what you mean, but the BALOO thing is just one example. Not by far the only experience I have had in dealing with condescending attitudes. However, I am not going to let that turn me off from scouting. All I'm saying is that they are shooting themselves in the foot. I hear it around here all the time how hard it is to get leadership. Maybe we should take a good long hard look at ourselves and try to determine what we are doing wrong. Treating CS leaders like second class citizens might have something to do with why they don't want to have anything more to do with scouting at the district or council level. And it might have something to do with why once those boys cross over, they limit themselves to dropping off and picking up their kid. Also, it might explain why our national recruiting numbers for boys is lower than it used to be. Maybe we need to work on making the CS program a more integral part of BSA as a whole and retaining those boys. I don't think new scouts are going to come at the middle school level without prior exposure.

Thank you Eagle for the history lesson on where that comes from. I have no way of knowing as I obviously was not involved in scouting in any way until 2006 when my oldest started his Tiger year. I don't know how it is in other districts, but it my district we have summer resident camps for Wolfs, Bears and Webelos, we have family camping twice a year, we have summer day camp that is exclusively outdoors, we hike at least twice a year as a pack, and our pack meetings are held outdoors except during the daylight savings time when it is cold and dark, and the webelos dens camp even more as a den, in webelos woods, and camporees and camporalls. So yes..we DO have OUTING in SCOUTING. No we don't camp monthly...but we can't expect families to cross out an entire weekend a month to take their sons camping. However, be that as it may, it is an attitude that BSA National in a lot of ways cultivates as well. For example, no Cubs were invited to the many centennial celebrations last year, because (and I quote) it is BSA's centennial..Cub scouts did not start until....(whenever that was). So National isn't helping things any either. And it's funny that you mention BALOO training. On a cold rainy day last Spring I took BALOO training along with two others in my pack. When the obligatory session on camping equipment started, the trainer started talking about sleeping bags. He holds up on of those puffy, used-for-basement-sleepovers sleeping bags that 99% of regular kids have and said "THIS is what I used for Cub family camping"..then he holds up one of those REI fits-in-the-palm-of-your-hand-and-weights-0.0000005 oz sleeping bags and says: "THIS is what I use now in boy scouts camping trips" And they ALL (yes ALL the trainers) laughed and guffawed. Only thing missing was the pointing the fingers at us and laughing at our amateur levels. And he did that with ALL the equipment: the tents, the stoves, the flashlights, etc. To say that I was livid is to put it mildly. What kind of attitude is that?? Where exactly do these people think that adult leadership for boy scouts is gonna come from? Is it gonna come from former cub scout leaders or is it gonna come from a parent of a 11 year old who has never been involved in scouting? And that is a PRIME example of how cub scout leaders are treated. Shameful. /end rant. My apologies for length.

You know what, I for one am getting beyond tired of the condescending attitude Boy Scouters have towards Cubbing. From calling it arts and crafts with mommy to making fun of the equipment cub families use when camping, I have seen and heard it all. It's insulting and more than that, it is short sighted. Where I live, Cub Scouting is huge. I just went to my district's website and counted over 30 packs. I do not have membership numbers on all of them, but ours hovers at around 90-100 cubs and I know for sure we are not the biggest pack in our district. I also know that our area is well known for its baseball...as in people move here so their sons can play in good leagues (news to me until recently, I don't like baseball much). So that's big competition around here. The next is somewhat empirical evidence, but the I do know that the troops in my district recruit heavily from all areas: packs and schools and churches. The two troops I know, recruited ONE (yes ONE) boy each that hadn't been in cub scouts. They recruited about 20 to 30 scouts from packs. SO you do the math. In this day and age, it is VERY difficult to "grab" a boy in middle school that has never experienced scouting. And it is doing a GREAT disservice to cub scouting to call it the joke of scouting. Because it is NOT true. The cubs I know camp, hike, and learn all kinds of scout skills. They DO NOT just do arts and crafts with mommy. And the cubs I know end up in boy scouts.

Ok, I didn't read the whole thread, but I will tell you this: I found this article just a few minutes ago: http://news.yahoo.com/boy-scout-found-building-tree-branch-shelter-231903921.html I think that whatever we are teaching, it is still relevant today.

In our pack we tend to work it so that AoL is not completed until just about time for crossover. By saying that, I don't mean we deliberately hold back boys from earning it, just that everything is timed so that by March when they cross over they earn AoL. One of the things they typically do is have one of the last meetings before cross over to sign off on knowledge of the Scout Oath and Promise, describing the parts of the uniform, etc. And in our pack it tends to be when you cross to Boy Scouts, not if. Although I don't know the retention numbers beyond the 1st couple of years in a troop.

Our pack (district) does family camping twice a year and they are fri to sun, so two nights. Kids of ALL ages attend (hence the family part) and a lot stay two nights. I'm not sure there can be a restriction as long as they have a parent/guardian with them.

If your troop/pack uses Troop or Packmaster, ask the person(s) in charge of entering the data to give you a copy of your son's advancement report. I'm pretty certain the scout shop will allow you to buy the restricted items using that report.

I think this is the most barbaric, unacceptable, bullish, disgusting, and despicable thing I have EVER EVER EVER heard adult scouters do to a child. And yes, that boy at 17 may be on his way to manhood, but he is still a CHILD. What Calico said, that is EXACTLY what I do. I try very hard not be a vindictive person, but for sure they would rue the day they even thought of conducting that kind of inquisition. I hope this becomes public. I hope their reputations get ruined and they never ever ever don that uniform again. Disgusting.

I just dug up my Tiger handbook..I think I was wrong in my answer. Here's what the handbook says: "Tiger Cubs - a program of exciting indoor and outdoor activities just right for a boy who is in 1st grade and/or is 7 years old" So yeah..that's trickier. But, I still think it would be up for the parents to decide. However, think this: if everyone decided he wasn't quite ready for 1st grade (for WHATEVER reason), then it might be that he probably isn't quite ready for scouts either. But that is just something to consider, I don't know the boy, I don't know the parents, I don't know your pack. And the reality is, he will make friends this year that will move on next year to Tigers too. I have a little experience with this. My son has a summer birthday and I decided in preschool that he would do pre-k twice. So he is older than a lot of his peers. It has worked out just fine and I haven't really regretted my decision.

We've had this issue come up here before. The general consensus is that BSA "law" it can go either way. It is really the parents decision of what would be best for the boy.

Oh a topic after my own heart! As Awards Chair it is deemed somewhat my responsibility to educate parents on optional awards. But I think sometimes it becomes a leading horses to water kinda thing. Some parents have no interest in spending time with their children doing scout stuff unless it is a pack or den event and they don't have to do the work. Here's what I do: I punt mostly to the den leaders. I give them links to the awards and their requirements (i.e. loops, pins, LNT, outdoor, etc) and request that they forward to their den parents. We also tend to make a big deal out of awards in my pack, so kids will ask their parents and den leader how they can get that award too. Our dens (not all, but most) do a pretty decent job incorporating optional awards in their den meetings, specially belt loops. With my own dens, I give the parents ALL the info they need (the book, web links, etc) and emphasize that scouting can happen anytime and anywhere. At the same time, I DO check belt loops. Just because you take your kid to the pool twice a week does not mean he earned the swimming loop. At the end of the day, it is mostly kid driven. Kids want bling. And also, parents tend to be competitive and want their kids to have bling, so they research.

In our pack it is generally accepted and understood that leaders kids will get more stuff. Parents usually understand. However, we have an active bunch of kids and they are not all leaders kids. We are lucky to have boys that love scouting and parents that drive them to where they need to be. Basement: seriously, my heart just broke. Had that been my kid being called a cheater, heads would have rolled. You are to be commended for taking the higher road. And it's not surprising he's still advancing faster. You taught him well. Be proud.