MNBob

Yet again bending the rules so John will not drop out is just as silly! Should Eagle be give to John when all his friends earn it to insure that he will not drop out at that point too?I don't think that's what Oak Tree was trying to imply (and it's not what I'm arguing). Earning the Arrow of Light is its own award and accomplishment. Cross Over is a separate ceremony. I understand the 11 years old rule for non Scouts to join Boy Scouts. But for boys who have participated in Cub Scouts as second year Webelos, I just think it's a silly technicality that only boys who turn 11 in the spring or summer will not be able Croos over with the rest of their den if they have not earned the Arrow of Light. The boy is not being awarded with anything. Aren't Webelos leaders supposed to encourage their Scouts to cross over. Doesn't BSA want people to join? Facing the possibility of losing a boy because of a technicality like this rule is, to be blunt, stupid. I certainly would have stayed longer if needed were not all of these scouts able to cross last week but that was not necessary, as we worked the program hard for the scouts who joined this school year and these scouts did a great job. Sometimes all you have to do is ask, and the parents will work with you.I commend you for your volunteerism. But I assume you know that your response is not typical. It's hard to find leaders from existing parents let alone someone who isn't a parent. I agree that it doesn't hurt to ask but I think your experience would be in the minority of most experiences.

I was asking in general. I don't plan to be the police but as has been mentioned I'll bring it up in the future now that I "know better". Seems there is a lot of BSA policy that is either not known (this example) or simply ignored (uniforms). I've only been involved with Cub Scouts so anything related to Boy Scouts is news to me. But my son is about to cross over and I don't want to become known as the "new guy policy jerk". Maybe I shouldn't have started reading here.

So my next question: Who is supposed to police these policies and what is the punishment supposed to be?

They (Scouts) and us (adults) definitely participated in laser tag.

The other topic talked about martial arts. I then read http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss09.aspx#e "Pointing any type of firearm or simulated firearm at any individual is unauthorized. Scout units may plan or participate in paintball, laser tag or similar events where participants shoot at targets that are neither living nor human representations." My Web2 den was invited to a Troop activity which went to a business that has indoor batting cages, arcade, miniaturegolf and laser tag. While there another Troop from the area also arrived. Now reading the above link it appears that laser tag is prohibitied. Does this means both Troops were holding a Troop activity that is prohibited by BSA?(This message has been edited by MNBob)

Thank you CNYScouter

"No contact" can't be the justification ScoutNut: Judo, Tai Chi, and Aikido If Scouts and Venturers practice defensive judo, Tai Chi, or aikido, it should be done with proper mats and with qualified instructors related to YMCAs, colleges, or athletic clubs whose objectives and coaching methods are compatible with the principles of the Boy Scouts of America.

I believe that each month in Cub Scouts 2010 will have a focus/theme of one of the 12 core values of Cub Scouting. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Parents/characterdev.aspx

Thank you dg98adams. As I said, we knew it was not in the handbook and we knew it was not a belt loop. The Tiger Den Leader at the time had already had a son go through Cub Scouts but he never told us that the activity was restricted. Thanks for linking to the guide. The other part of my question still stands, what is the justification for this BSA policy? I can only assume that BSA is not able to verify every single program and therefore it is easier to just not support any of them. My Webelos son is currently in karate and the program is value-oriented and focuses on self-defense. I see nothing in the program that would be at odds with Scouting. My youngest is going to be a Tiger and I was considering a fun den meeting similar to what my oldest did when he was a Tiger. Now that I see the policy we apparently cannot do that as an "official" den outing.

Mike: I think the OP is referring to the boys earning AoL by December. They are currently 4th graders but in Dec they will be in 5th grade. If you award AoL as soon as it is earned do you treat it like any other rank advancement or do you have a special ceremony that you peform multiple times?

When my son was a Tiger we went as a den for a karate lesson at the dojo/school that one of the other Tigers belonged to. It didn't meet any requirements but was just a fun den outing. That parent always wondered why martial arts was not a belt loop. Does BSA provide a policy justification for this anywhere? We knew we wouldn't earn any requirements but we never considered whether we were violating some BAS policy by attending.

Our Pack had traditionally done Arrow of Light, Cross Over and Cub Scout rank advancements at Blue & Gold. We found that put a lot of pressure on the Cub Scouts dens especially those with leaders who were brand new to Scouting. So we no longer made Blue & Gold the target for rank advancement. Last year our Blue & Gold did not include Arrow of Light or Cross Over ceremonies. That was because the Troop the 4 Webelos were joining was not ready to receive new Scouts at the time of our B&G. Instead AoL and Cross Over happened at the March Pack meeting. This year we are doing both ceremonies at Blue & Gold but the banquet isn't until next week (March 7) because of venue availability. In our case all of the boys are earning Arrow of Light but the ceremony we are using is designed to treat them separately so that Scouts who did not earn the Arrow could then still cross over (but see http://www.scouter.com/Forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=267724 for an interesting discussion about this). We've just chosen to run our Webelos program in this manner. At the same time we've never had a Scout earn his Arrow of Light long before other Scouts so the issue of timing hasn't come up. However I think there are some practical reasons that make it hard to hold multiple ceremonies: 1. Do you co-opt a Pack meeting for the AoL? Will the other leaders buy in to this? If you do it at a regular Pack meeting is the ceremony "special" enough or does it just feel like another award at a Pack meeting? 2. If you hold a special meeting is the rest of the Pack (non-Webelos) going to be that interested in attending? We don't even get everyone to attend Blue & Gold so I'm sure even less would want to attend a ceremony that was only for a small sub-set of boys without any other activities. Can you afford it? Will other leaders help with planning? 3. If only some Scouts earn their AoL early will they be interested in any future Webelos den meetings or will they be looking to cross over as soon as possible? 2.

As Mom2Scouts06 mentions the existing themed program helps are being replaced with "Cub Scouts 2010" starting with fall 2010. http://www.scouting.org/CubScouts2010.aspx Not all of the information for Cub Scouts 2010 is available yet but it will be based on the Fast Tracks pilot program that was used by various Councils/Packs over the past 5 years. http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/Home/CubScouts/FastTracks.aspx Our Pack never used the themes so there was never any incentive for den meetings and pack meetings to use the same program. As a den leader I did look into the themes but I didn't find them useful because they assumed dens were meeting weekly (we met only twice/month) and I didn't like that they did not seem to complete many requirements.

A couple of people have now referred to age 10.5. Where is that age mentioned in the BSA requirements? @Snow_White: I mentioned that I'm specifically referring to those 5th grade Scouts who participate in the Webelos program but turn 11 sometime after typical spring cross over time (i.e. after Feb/Mar). @nolesrule: You are correct when you say "It's only an issue when a Den Leader chooses to terminate the den before the end of the Cub Scout year when not all of his Webelos have earned Arrow of Light." But then why do most people always refer to Webelos as being an 18 (or 21) month program? Our Pack delivers our Webelos program with the clear understanding that it runs from June after 3rd grade until Feb/Mar of 5th grade. Do other Packs actually make Webelos a 2 year program from June after 3rd grade until June after 5th grade? Do other Webelos leaders plan to continue holding meetings after the majority of their den has crossed over including quite possibly their own son? Anyway this is an interesting topic that I'll discuss at an upcoming committee meeting. As I originally mentioned this "issue" never even occurred to me and because of how our Pack has always operated I just assumed there never was an issue. I'm curious if others in the Pack think we need to worry about it(This message has been edited by MNBob)

I'd guess that Troops around here would be willing to do the last point. It just seems a little silly to me to not address this minor timing issue which only would affect 5th grade boys with spring or summer birthdays.

That is most certainly their true intent.If so I don't see how that is practical. In our Pack when cross over occurs the Web 2 den is finished. What good would it do to make a Scout wait until age 11 or the end of 5th grade, whichever comes first, if he has not earned his Arrow of Light? The den will no longer be meeting and the Scout is not going to be receiving any additional preparation for Boy Scouts. Personally I'd see that as a situation that might just upset parents and make them decide not to join Boy Scouts. (Note: I'm specifically referring to boys coming out of a Webelos program and not someone brand new to Scouting)(This message has been edited by MNBob)

Interesting. I had never thought about that. BSA requirement: Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old. My son is in 5th grade but his birthday is in August. He is crossing over on March 7 but he will have his Arrow of Light. It didn't occur to me that he would not have officially been able to join without his AoL until school is out in June. I think BSA may need to tweak the requirement wording as I doubt that's the true intent. Maybe they need to change the requirement to being in the 5th grade at cross over time if the Scout has not earned AoL.

JerseyScout: I think that's painting with a broad brush. There are bad Pack programs just like there are bad Troop programs. And within a Pack there are good and bad dens just like I assume Troops may have good or bad patrols. For Cub Scouts it ultimately boils down to volunteer leadership -- you either have good ones or bad ones. I had 12 second year Webelos Scouts in my den this year. 11 are crossing over on March 7 (the 12th moved in January otherwise he probably would have as well). Of the 11 I think 8 of them will give Boy Scouts a fair chance while I can see 3 of them possibly dropping rather quickly. At the same time the Web I den behind us went from a high of around 10 Scouts to only 2 this year. I have no idea if those boys who left would consider Boy Scouts in the future but it probably won't be because of their Cub Scout experience.

If I understand correctly, Lions existed before Webelos. Wolf->Bear->Lion. Lions went away and eventually Webelos was added.(This message has been edited by MNBob)

Lisabob: I understand your point but wouldn't that be an issue regardless of what rank started the program? In other words if Tigers didn't exist then the problem just migrates to the Wolf den with having brand new parents have to step in and lead (assuming no experiened leader is available). My concern with Lions is that it's just another year of Scouting and although I like the program I don't really see the need. As it is, the program is already repetitive. We have a running joke in our Pack about just how enjoyable it is to work on the food pyramid every year. *rolls eyes* I wonder if BSA sees so much competition with organized activities starting younger and younger that they feel it is necessary to join in. As a parent I'm personally rather tired of the over organization of our kids.

Scoutfish: I think nearly everyone is agreeing that if a Scout shows up while a requirement is being worked on that constitutes completing the requirement. But some of us are not talking about those requirements, we're talking about the family requirements that need to be done at home. Lets look at Tiger achievement 2 as an example: 2. Where I Live 2F - Family Activity Look at a map of your community with your adult partner. 2D - Den Activity Practice the Pledge of Allegiance with your den, and participate in a den or pack flag ceremony. Character Connection: Citizenship 2G - Go See It Activity Visit a police station or a fire station. Ask someone who works there how he or she helps people in your community. If the Scout is in attendance when 2D and 2G are done with the den then those requirements are completed. But if the Scout never does 2F and Akela (parent) never signs off on the requirement then Achievemnt 2 has not been completed.

I agree skeptic. Scouting is accepting of all religions as long as you profess to believe in some higher power. IMO only an atheist would not meet the requirements of the Oath. Some people get upset and assume this means Scouts is intolerant. I disagree. It would be no different than my joining the MN atheists organization and complaining when they don't follow my request to open meetings with a prayer and then calling them intolerant of other beliefs. Instead I know the group isn't for me and I just wouldn't join. That said there is no reason to exclude a child because his parents are atheists. The child may develop separate beliefs although parents obviously have a strong influence. But at some point I'm not sure how you resolve "duty to God" with a professed atheist Scout. Can a troop advance a Scout to Eagle if he professes atheism?(This message has been edited by MNBob)

For those interested here was the info we were given for the 2009-2010 year: http://www.northernstarbsa.org/Forms/Recruitment/Resources/Fall2009/GeneralRecruiting/LionCubFlyerwithcommitmentform.pdf Our Pack did not participate in the first pilot year. We did participate this year although my vote was not to include Lions because I didn't feel we were partipating in the Pilot for the right reasons. As it turned out I do not believe we actually followed the program and I'd be surprised if we plan to provide any feedback. I pretty much washed my hands of it and told the Lions Coordinator that it was his responsibility. Regardless of our Pack experience, I'm really not sure that Lions is necessary. It does provide us with a ready to go Tigers den but I'm not sure I see the benefit of yet another year of Cub Scouting. The cynic in me sees this as just an opportunity to boost unit numbers.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Training/woodbadge.aspx To be eligible for an invitation to participate in Wood Badge training, Cub Scout leaders must first complete Basic Leader Training. Your pack trainer, Cubmaster, unit commissioner, or council service center can give you more information. It is the goal of the BSA that every leader attend Wood Badge within two years of registering as an adult leader.

Visit http://media.scouting.org/cubscouts/fasttracks/ and view the Tiger fast tracks and I think you'll have a good idea of how "Cub Scouts 2010" will include Tigers. I brought up a similar topic in http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=267297. My oldest is crossing over on March 7 and then my youngest will start as a Tiger in the fall.