mk9750

Well, here's an update, and it isn't pretty. We just got back from an annual event we do where we invite Webelos and their dads on a campout. The youngest guys in our Troop develop hands on presentations on Scout Skills, the middle age guys act as coaches / mentors, to make sure the presentation is correct, interesting, etc. The first purpose of the weekend is to give these guys a chance to hone their knowledge by teaching the skills. But we make no bones of the fact that this is also a recruiting weekend, so we try to make sure we put our best foot forward. All of the scouts decribed above, plus one boy a year younger, were in a cabin together. Three dads were also in the cabin, but we had a number of Webelos dads in the mess hall shooting bull Friday night, and all three of the dad's were there, and not in the cabin. One of our oldest Scouts was walking past the cabin when he heard screaming that seemed out of control even for these guys. He walked up to the cabin, and tried to walk in. they had the doors locked, but through the winddow he watched them lighting and throwing matches at each other! They refused to open the door for this Scout, who went back, got the SPL, and the two of them got a key from the campmaster to open the door. They spent almost an hour trying to deal with these guys themselves, and decided that the situation would be dealt with by assigning these guys K.P. for the rest of the weekend. The SPL did not tell any adults about this until late Saturday night. Right behind this cabin was where the demo for woods tools was done, so all of the Troop's axes, hatchets, and saws were in the cabin. During the day, as the SM and I wandered from demo to demo, seeing how the guys were doing, checking to see if the Webelos were enjoyng themselves, etc., we noticed a CD sized chuck hacked out of one of the trees near the cabin. It was a fresh cut, and obviously done by someone at our activity. We are certain it was not a Webelos, because the demo did not allow them to actually handle any tools (they passed axe handles without heads around), and the coach secured the tools when not out for the demos. It is quite obvious, though not provable, that one or more of the the guys in the cabin did this. All denied, although one guy pointed the finger at one of the other guys. After dinner Saturday night, we ask our CO's Pastor to come out and celebrate Mass with us. We told whoever wanted to go to Mass to attend, but if you didn't want to, we'd appreciate helping with K.P. A couple of non Catholic older guys helped out, but four of the five guys from above (curiously, all Catholic) decided to skip Mass and work in the kitchen. We have a COH after Mass, and moms usually trek out to camp for the COH. My wife and older son got there during Mass, and rather than come in through the front of the dining hall, interupting Mass, they came in through the kitchen. When they walked into the kitchen, they saw our famous #1 holding a carving knife at the back of one of the other guys. He was obviously joking, my wife said, but she didn't realize that when she first saw it. She thought for a few seconds the kid was serious. On Sunday, breakfast was over at 7:30. By 9:15, every cabin, every demo site, every latrine, and the mess hall, were cleaned and ready to be inspected. We pride ourselves on the fact that campmasters love us being at camp, as everything gets cleaned far better than their standard requires. The last cabin to be inspected was the cabin these guys were in. One of their fathers had advised us it was ready to be inspected. As I understand, the campmaster walked in, and his head just dropped. As I hear it, there was mud just EVERYWHERE! Not just on on the floor, which neither should have ever been there, as we all are supposed to have inside shoes with us when we're in cabins, but it also should have been cleaned before this if it was there, but there was mud on the walls, and muddy footprints on the ceiling! There were matches, and sucker sticks all over the place. One kid's dirty socks were sticking out from under a matress. And from what the campmaster says, they used every bit of wood in one weekend that was intended to last over a month. On the way home, one of the ASMs had the boy who is a year younger that was in the cabin with him. The boy described a list of easily 15 things that these guys were doing that he was uncomfortable with, ranging from mocking most of the adults in the Troop to playing with matches and firestarters in the cabin. He talked about a game they played, Love Bug, that is inappropriate to describe here. We plan on having a meeting tonight between the SM, the ASM who heard the litany on the way home, one other ASM, and me. We plan to document all of the things we can verify that happened, and call a meeting this week of the parents of all of these boys. We have already discussed informally that these boys will be required to form a service detail to volunteer at the camp for at least a full day, maybe more, before they will be permitted to attend any further activities. I will be suggesting that a parent accompany their child on every over night event for some period of time (6 months?), and tent with their son, to divide these guys up. I'm sure there will be other suggestions for how to deal with this. But I think in the informal conversations I've had with these adults, we all agree that there WILL be commitment to change from both the Scouts and their parents, or they will decide for themselves not to come back. I've never been so embarassed to be associated with a Scout in the 12 years I've been in Scouting. This time, there are a handful of Scouts I am embarassed about. Sorry to take so much of your time while I vent. Mark

It appears I owe apologies to both Ed, Bob, and FOG. First to Ed: I guess I was wrong. I had not seen a post that said anyone squelched you. So I assumed no one had. Bad assumption, and one I should not have made public. Sorry to have said anything. Second to Bob: I'm sorry if you thought I was baiting you. It absolutely was not why I mentioned your name. As I said above, I thought I understood your position concerning Ed, and thought I could clarify it. I should NEVER have done this (I guess I knew I shouldn't do it all along. Heck, I was apologizing for it while I was writing it!). I tried to play mediator between two people I like on this forum. I think I understand what you feel about Ed's philosophies on Scouting. But I had never seen any maliciousness from you toward Ed personally, and I was trying to point that out to him. And to FOG: I don't think saying you've become more mainstream is derrogatory. I don't think that it means that you "accept anything without questioning just because it is handed down from on high". I think you're posts have taken a turn away from attacking people personally to discussing issues. As I've said before, I still don't always agree with you. But your tone allows me to decide the merits of your position without having to filter it through your demeanor. If you felt calling you more mainstream was an insult, I am sorry. I thought it a compliment. Mea Culpa. Mark

Has any here ever attended the Camporee at The United States Military Academy at West Point? Our Troop has been accepted to go to this year's event, and it will be the first time for us. I'd love to hear anything anyone can tell us about the experience, and how to help our Scouts make it great for them. We have all of the materials, and we think we understand everything. I'm wondering if there are any pitfalls to worry about, or things to make sure we do. Thanks for any help you can offer. Mark

We have three Scouts in our Troop who are staunch Democrats. We have one Scout who is a staunch Republican, and another who I think doesn't have a strong point of view, but he likes arguing politics, and always takes the "R" stand. We've been trying to get these guys to put together a debate. The hope was for them to choose sides, research a couple of political ideas (both sides), bring in a debate coach, and have a series of debates, perhaps judged by local politicians. All of the politically active Scouts bought into it, but they've been having a tough time getting it off the ground. I've been doing my level best to keep my hands in my pocket, successfully so far. We have a major event going on this weekend, but after that, I may give them a little nudge. Everyone thinks it's a great idea, we've just had two big things come up, one right after another, that our Scouts have had high profile responsiblity for. "Shark infested waters" is a good description of where you swim if you espouse too much of your own politics. We all know there is a line that shouldn't be crossed, and up to that line, we have a duty to be a source of information about the political process. But extending toes over that line becomes worrisome. It is quite the same as discussing being Reverent with a Scout, and then starting to debate the merits of your own religion -vs- the religion of a Scout and his family. I'd be careful. It's why I said no when the debate idea came up, one of the Scouts who is strongly liberal made the comment he couldn't wait for the chance to debate me. Well, that, and he's smarter than I am! Mark

Proud Eagle, I respectfully disagree. The requirements for Eagle Palms appear to be the most clear of any in the book (see FOG's post). If these need further clarification, I'd worry about the ability of the person reading them. What could be unclear? OK, maybe "Make a SATISFACTORY effort...". But how many months after the Eagle award, or previous Palm is very clear. In the original post, I'd be very happy to let the District or Council Advancement Committee handle this. He obviously earned one Palm. He was awarded it within 3 months of his 18th birthday, and with 3 months being the minimum time between Palms, he could not have earned a second, or third. It looks to me like you followed procedure. If the Council advancement folks want to create a new procedure, which allows less than three months, as long as they kept me up to date on the new rules, I say, have at it. I suspect however, that if the facts as you lay them out are presented to the committee, this young man will have finished his career with one Palm. And for that, he should be proud, not upset. We've been fortunate enough to have 11 Eagles in my 8+ years with my Troop. None have earned a Palm. My youngest son has a chance (he's close enough to Eagle, early enough in his career, with enough extra MBs, to do it, but so have others, including my oldest son), but that's it. Good luck and congratulations to both of you. Mark

Ed, I should not be attempting to speak for Bob, but if you're right, he won't speak for himself. But when I read the other thread, I made the assumtion it was FOG he had squelched, not you. Maybe Bob can confirm this one way or another. As to baiting, sure it happens. It is a valuable form of discussion, used most often, as NJ explained, in the judicial system, not only at trial, but in depositions and even in interrogations. It can be malicious, and we've seen evidence of that here occasionally. But in most cases, it is not. It's a tried and true method of getting your fellow conversationalist to make your point for you. Again, let me say I should not speak for Bob, but although it is obvious he does not respect many of your positions concerning Scouting, I think he has shown evidence tht he actually likes you as a person (as much as talking over the internet can allow). I've read people and what they've written wrong before, but this is how I have read Bob's posts concerning you. Now FOG is a different matter. Although I think FOG has become much more mainstream than when he first started posting, I get the feeling Bob is never going to like FOG. Mark

Hunt, Welcome to the best job in Scouting, at least in my opinion! KS hit most every nail right on the head. Just a few additional comments: Troopmaster really is a great program. His comment about the pros and cons are accurate, but, at least in my Troop in my Council, the slightly slower time to get records updated doesn't seem to bother us. I use Troopmaster, and we only have one input (me). If info needed to be more "real time", the alternative of giving other people access would work with the proper discipline. Whatever you do, back up electronic records EVERY TIME, and even if you file advancements electronically, as NW says, print a hard copy and file away safely. Data entry to get Troopmaster usable takes hours upon hours up front. Don't do it twice. I like KS' comment about discussing with the SM how to cover all the advancement bases without stepping on either's toes. Our SM was relieved to hear that I wanted to sit with each boy and get his most up to date advancment info, and an idea as to each Scout's goals. I personally think that the Advancement Chair should be involved in this conversation, whether or not the SM wants to be or not, but I would make sure the SM had the option to participate, rather than schedule them unilaterally. After all, for even the best of SMs, they could find out something about a Scout or two that they didn't know before. I have always made it known I was available to attend the PLC's annual planning conference if invited. Most of the time, they invite me, but a couple of times not. My role has always been only as a resource to help the PLC plan a calender that considers advancement issues. If we have a significant number of boys who missed a campout designed to teach axe and knife skills, then they can consider making that topic a focal point of a campout they are considering. On the same line, campouts they've always planned to do, say swimming requirements, could be altered if everyone has those requirements signed off. I've never offered anything without being asked, but I do get asked a lot. The suggestion to read the SM handbook is good, but I'd add reading much of the Scout handbook, too. And having your own copy is a luxury you'll appreciate quickly. Our Courts of Honor are done a little differently than KS'. Rather than the committee planning them, our guys do. That causes the tone to vary greatly from one to the next. They're all fun, most are funny, a few are too long. But we have little format established, except what the current Scout who is responsible for planning it remebers he likes from the last few. Congratualtions. There has been no more enjoyable thing I have done than sit on a Life Scout's BOR, remembering the timid, shy, growing Tenderfoot with the same name from 3 - 5 years ago. A few times, I've had to try to keep moms on the Board from crying, even though I've fought a tear or two myself. Gosh this is great! Mark

Wheeler, Congratulations on keeping your post so short! I know I struggle with that myself, so I know how hard it can be. Just out of curiosity, Have you ever been told by a female librarian (I know that's stereotypical) to "shussshh!"? What did that do to your sense of manhood? Mark

We're a "complete uniform while traveling" Troop. Happens pretty much automatically, we don't have anyone policing who is and is not in uniform. This gets discussed by the SPL when boys cross over. Even on their first camp out or two, they wear there Cub Scout uniform if necesary. We had an ASM who was the lead adult on a trip one time, and he was a bit over zealous with this. Sent a mom home to retrieve junior's belt because he forgot it. We usually aren't that strict. But the guys all seem to come in complete uniform, all of the time. Wearing the uniform while traveliing has never seemed to be a hinderance to us. Part of every Scout's pack is a hanger that his uniform is hung on when he arrives at camp. We don't wear our uniform for meals (except for summer camp every other year), so it stays neat, even for a week. We have proven, at least to ourselves, that wearing the uniform has been beneficial at times. Our Troop is used to it, so no one complains. I can only speak for us, but this is a none issue. Mark

Hunt, I agree 100%. Given all of what you say, how would you rate the difficulty of the MBs listed? Mark

I'd like to get an idea about how difficult forum members here view common merit badges. For each of the following MBs, please rate on a scale from 1 (extremely easy) to 100 (extremely hard). If you feel I am leaving off a commonly earned MB, add it at the end. 1) Cit / Community 2) Cit / Nation 3) Cit / World 4) Swimming 5) Hiking 6) Cycling 7) First Aid 8) Camping 9) Lifesaving 10) Emergency Preparedness 11) Family Life 12) Personal Management 13) Personal Fitness 14) Environmental Science 15) Communications 16) Basketry 17) Canoeing 18) Cooking 19) Orienteering 20) Backpacking 21) Rifle Shooting 22) Shotgun Shooting 23) Fishing 24) Pioneering 25) Wilderness Survival Once activity on this slows down, I'll tally everything and report the results. Thanks! Mark

Terry, Are you a Scoutmaster? you have a great knack for sitiing back and watching the chaos, doing nothing, until just before the fertilizer is getting ready to hit the fan. Just like a good Scoutmaster. Mark

When boys cross over to our Troop, we give them a stock, two color neckerchief that is maroon and gold. At the first COH after they make 1st Class, we have a pretty serious cermeony where a younger Scout takes that neckerchief off, and an older Scout puts on his permanent Troop neckerchief, which is red with white piping, and embroidered with an owls on a log, and our Troop number and city. My wife and I make the neckerchiefs, and then we pay to have them embroidered. Lots of 24 cost $128.00 now that the artwork has been done. The stock neckerchiefs look pretty ratty by the time a boy earns his Troop neckerchief. Washing them really takes a lot out of them. All our boys wear their neckerchief under the collar, but no one knows how or when that started. Neckerchiefs are worn at all meetings between Sept. and May, when the SPL usually declares full uniforms optional. Slides are 90% the stock metal slide, but we have a couple of guys who have made their own, and wear them proudly. My son is trying to get his Patrol to make a Patrol slide, but cooperation has been lacking (see other thread). Adults in our Troop do not wear neckerchiefs. We are either open collar, or wear the green tie. Except for one guy who wears a red stripped tie with a BSA emblem with his uniform, whick looks silly, but he means well, I guess. Mark

Our District Advancement Chair contacts at least the approved MB Counselors. I've not been made aware of any that were turned down, so I don't know how he handles those. When he calls, he uses the opportunity to reinforce the YP guidelins as they relate to MB Counselors, the expectations of the MB program, and that he is limited to counsel only badges for which the Council has deemed him qualified. Mark

Good question. We've never even thought about this. Our CC does occasionaly sit on BOR. But now that you mention it, is the POTHUS a member of his own cabinet? Then again, I was of the impression the minimum requirements for a Troop was a committee of three, including the CC. Since only committee members can sit on a BOR, the bare minimum committee could not conduct a BOR if the CC were not included. Put me down for not sure, but I think they can. Mark

Wheeler, No one on this thread attacked you. as a matter of fact, no one even mentioned your name. Everyone up until your post spoke about the right of anyone to have and share an opinion, and the right of everyone else to either read or ignore that opinion. To borrow a phrase from one of my favorite people... And no back to my regularly scheduled forum. Mark

KS, I agree 1,000% that at some point the good of the whole has to be put in front of the good of a few. Thinking back on this, we've been a little quicker to do so when the youth leaders involved have been those other than the sons of some of the core adult group. When our kids have been in leadership positions, we've dragged our feet a lot more. I suspect it is the belief that we can coach our own kids more because we have the ride home, the dinner table, playing catch, etc., to do the coaching. (That reminds me of the question in Scouting Magazine this issue, about how much time is too much to be devoting to Scouting. My wife complains constantly that the only dinner conversation at our house for the last 12 years has been Scouts!) But we still have this knawing feeling that it's THESE kids who need this program the most. We've got a former Scout at West Point right now. We talk about him constantly, about how he would be at West Point with our without Boy Scouts. But those boys who struggle with what is right, with being constructive instead of destuctive, really need the direction Scouting provides. They really need the mentorship I'd like to think we provide. I recognize that at some point, we may have to do what we don't want to do. But it's hard to think like that when you're not sure you've done everything you could. I will PM you for that resource. It sounds like it could be a good framework for our process. I just had lunch with our SM. He said he had an 1 1/2 conversation with the mom of Scout #4. She wants to know why he hasn't advanced. She wants to know why he's getting heat from older Scouts about the current expectation we have of him. She wants to know why the older guys all seem to have more fun than her son says he has. She did not appear to be interested in hearing that every Scout gets the enjoyment out of the program they earn. She didn't want to hear that the only attitude and only actions her son could control was his own. She diodn't understand that even if her little #4 wasn't at fault, the SM's job is to keep his hands in his pockets for as long as he can (another reference to Scouter Mag.), and let the youth leadership handle it. She was calm, but she just wasn't going to accept that her little #4 bears most of the blame for his own lack of enjoyment. Again, thanks all for your help. Asking here is somewhat what I perceive going to AA is like. It was so hard to admit that there's a problem in my little Troop, but once I fessed, up, it's easy to see that help is out their. Mark

Ron, I'm sure that if you asked 1000 Troops how they do their Eagle ceremonies, you'd get 1000 answers, and everyone one of them is right. Ultimately, the best way to do it is how your Troop comes up with how to do it. In an effort to get you stsrted with some ideas, here's how ours go: First, this is a night for the Eagle and his family, so, ecxept for the Eagle Charge (Eammon's reference to being a marked man is the keystone of our Eagle Charge), the night is planned by a group that includes the Eagle, the family, the SM and me (advancement chair). Pretty much whatever the family wants, we do. They pick the date (we tell them to chose a date at least 8 weeks later than the Board of Review), they pick the venue (the family's church is the most common, but we have also done them at a BSA camp, at a local nature preserve, and outside) the ceremony (we have three stock ceremonies, but we've had families write original ceremonies themselves), and the social afterward. We ask the mother of the Scout who is most likely to make Eagle next to be the this Eagle's mom assistant. That gives here an oppurtunity to see what must get done, to understand the pitfalls, and get an idea what goes into the process. These mom's usually recruit one other mom to help, and all families are asked to bring a pot luck appetizer or dessert, although our most recent decided they wanted a full sit down meal. Most of the ceremonies go something like this: Flag ceremony, a welcome, History of the Eagle Scout Award, the candidate's Scouting history, including a description of his Eagle project and other community service work done, the Eagle charge, the awarding of the Eagle badge, The new Eagle presenting his parents with their pins and tie tacks (these all come in a kit that our Council provides. I get the impression this might be a local thing, but I really don't know), then each Patrol usually comes up, says a humorous story or two, presents the Eagle with a token gift (these are sometimes gag gifts, sometimes memento type stuff), then the SM speaks, the Eagle's parents speak, then the Scout speaks. A closing flag ceremony, and then the social. Our ceremony takes 1:15 to 1:30, and the social usually lasts another hour or so. Hope this helps, but remember, I believe that the family should be the driving force in how the evening goes. The entire Troop should be ready to support them, but it's his, and their, night. Keep Troop traditions in mind, but, if it were me, the family would plan most everything. Mark

Bob, Both formal and informal SM conferences have taken place with four of the five of these guys. Sm one on one, Sm with PL, SM with ASM and PL. They've not helped, but, our SM doesn't have the demeanor to use your suggested technique, which I think sounds pretty good. One of the ASM might be able to do this a little better, and I think I'll make that suggestion to the SM and the ASM. I'm sure the suggestion will be considered. The SM knows he's a more "in your face" kind of guy, and often turns to one of the ASMs or me when more of a soft touch is needed. I'm sure willing to give it a try. Do you (or anyone else) have any experience with a meeting between the comittee and the parents of a boy like this? My suspicion is that it most likely becomes a parent defending his son, and if it's that, I don't see much value in it unless the goal is to kick the kid out. We've never done it, so I could be wrong. But it sure seems like the world has become a place where no one wants to take personal responsiblity for anything, nor expect there their children to do so. I'd like to hear how meetings like this actually have played out. My son's actions in all of this have impressed me. I've had conversations in the past about what the 11 points of leadership are, and he couldn't name a one. But I've watched him attempt to apply problably 6 or 7 of them during his tenure. I'm problably a little too quick to be critical of my children when they don't meet thier potential, but I really think he has done well here, despite the lack of results. Ed, in hind sight, we wished we had called his parents, and we have resolved to do so if something like this happens again. We truly have such little problem with bad language from our guys, this was very suprising to us. But it has caused us to put our heads together along with the SPL and ASPL and come up with a rough idea of how we will deal with disruptive behavior if it happens again. As for splitting them up, we've discussed this, but there isn't a real good way to do this right now. A Patrol of five would work, although a Patrol of these five is likely to do nothing. But that leaves a Patrol of three, and there really isn't any place else these guys would fit. I think we're stuck with this situation until any new Scouts we get this spring are being intergrated into regular Patrols. I'm sure we can't wait that long. I appreciate your responses. Both are well thought, and I think they will be helpful. I'd love to hear from others, too. Thanks! Mark

BTW, can you imagine what he would say if he read some of Dave's posts where he talked about sewing and making quilts? Would be fodder of AT LEAST 1,000,000 words, wouldn't it? Mark

OGE, The old line still rings true: I may hate what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I've gotten to the point where I don't even open up the threads anymore. I'm thrilled he has a forum to vent. We each have the right to pay attention or not. Gosh, it's a great country, isn't it? Mark

OK, it's finally time that I ask for some help. Here's the situation: We have a Patrol that consists of (3) 9th graders (15 or about to turn 15), and (5) 8th graders. The PL and APL are two of the older boys, and, in the interest of full disclosure, the PL is my youngest son. One of the 8th graders is an extremely small boy physically, and although he is very intelligent, he suffers from a number of diffuculties, including ADD. To add to these, his father tells us that he is a constant target for being picked on at school because of his size. We have never noticed any of the Scouts pick on him for his size, nor has he ever complained to us about it. The problem we do have with him, however, is that he is hell bent on disrupting most anything in which he is involved. The event that has me writing this happened Tuesday, when, during their Patrol meeting, he was asked (verified by an adult who was monitoring the meeting) to put away a book (that had nothing to do with Scouting), and he got up and paced around the group of boys chanting the "f" word. Although this is the first time THIS has happened, it is a typical type reaction from him. Another boy is one of the nicest trouble makers you'll ever meet. Bright, polite, a halo around his head when adults are around. However, he has a friend (see the next paragraph) that is happy to oblige any request this boy makes, and it usually is disruptive. By every PL he has had in almost three years in our Troop, we are told he is the source of many problems. Responds to absolutely no youth leadership, and, when they attempt to get adults involved, he denies any wrongdoing, and acts like the perfect angel when he thinks we're watching. Scout # 3 is the dupe for the last guy. He is one of the bigeest bumps on a log I have ever met. He attends 90% of the meetings, but does literally nothing. He signs up for campouts and such, even paying money. When his PL assigns him tasks on the duty roster, he always decides he has something else to do. The only time he has been to any campout since his first year in Scouts, the PL at the time did an experiment and assigned him no duties. He came and sat by the fire ring for 2 days, except when he was eating. Scout #4 is a good kid, but he wants to put zero effort into Scouts. Three times in the last three months, his PL (my son) has asked him to assume one responsiblity or another. He always says yes, but when the PL follows up, nothing has happened. I have heard my son try to deal with this. He has tried all of the techniques he knows, and many of the ones I know, to help this Scout understand why his commitment is so important to himself, the Patrol, and the Troop. Nothing seems to work. The only thing that gets him motivated is if it is sports related. If asked to run a game, he'll capitulate. Other than that, nothing. The 5th Scout is an OK kid that I think would flourish in a better Patrol, but he is friends with all of these guys, and does not want to move to a different Patrol. And, although he isn't part of the problem, this is one case where he isn't part of the solution, either. OK, there's the band of merry men with which we have to deal. I've watched my son, as the PL, struggle with these guys for six months now. I've seem him make some of the best efforts I have seen made to work with a tough situation. I've seen him get the SPL involved, who also did a number of things that should have worked, but nothing. Now, the PL and the APL are ready to quite if we don't do something drastic, and their strongest suggestion is to toss these guys out of the Troop. They know that isn't really an option, but that's how frustrated they are. One common denominator they all have is that they all came from the same den in Cubs, and the father of Scout #1, an Eagle Scout, who was their Den Leader, was the NSP's ASM (which I now understand from my participation here is a bad idea. This should have been an experienced ASM). He usurped much of the Troop Guide's responsiblities, and this Patrol was more like a Cub Scout Den than a Boy Scout Patrol for almost two years. At that time, in an effort to try to jolt them out of the funk they were in, we convinced my son's established Patrol to invite these guys in, despite the fact that three of the five were miles away from 1st class yet. OK, this has gotten long enough. Unfortunately, I can't come up with one specific question to ask, so I'm just going to ask generally - How would you handle this situation? Thanks in advance for your replies. Mark

I agree with the BSA's stand. I agree with Mr. Frank's response. And I find humor in it all. Make's you wonder if we have the right person doing the proofreading of the address labels as they are being aplied to the bulk mail, though, doesn't it? Mark

Well, yet again, I am caught by my own inablity to succintly say everything I mean, and, in an effort to keep my message short, left out part of my thoughts. Of course there are some reasonable situations that a Policeman would give someone else his gun, including the possiblity that he is instructing a MB with Scouts. My comment was based on the scenerio presented as I imagined it, in which two very seperate groups, Scouts and Policemen, are using a firing range at the same time, but not together, and a boy wondered over out of curiousity. In that specific scenerio, in my opinion, a reasonable Policeman would not hand any firearm over to a Scout. Sorry my lack of communication skills caused confusion. Of course, I am not a cop, and therefore my assumption could be wrong. Mark

KS, The range we use has 6 stations, and we've never shared it with any of the patrolmen. We have to call the Chief to get permission. Sometime during the time we're there (usually Sunday mornings), he'll come out to checkthings out. But we've never seen a policeman there when we've been shooting. Had a few of them there when it was being built. It was kind of fun watching a 17 year old direct the cops. I would like to think that a cop would never give anyone else a weapon to fire, but I know that's idealistic. Mark