mk9750

Bob, I think F/U means Follow Up. We use the acronym in our Troop all of the time, because it does get the boys attention. Not very proud to use a trick like this to get a point across, but it really works. SMT376, Something is really wrong. either you're not presenting your tour permit in a way that allows Council to approve it, or, as Eamonn says, Council needs to be whacked with a rolled up copy of G2SS. Our Troop also restricts high venture activities to 13 and First Class. We provide every new Scout an opportunity to get a "taste" of everything we do, just to whet their appetites. But a week long backpacking trip to the A.T., or a weekend Whitewater trip is limited to older Scouts. This works for us, but it sounds like it is hurting your unit. If you need to add high venture to keep your boys interested, you shouldn't let artificial rules stop you. BTW, at least Tinnerman Canoe base in Canada (operated by the Greater Cleveland Council), does limit attendance to boys 13 and over, so it's not unheard of that a Council would have such rules. Mark

Did someone say PA Breweries? None better than Straub, in St. Mary's! I'm not a big beer drinker (actually, I am big, I just don't drink much beer), but I'd never pass on a chance for a "greenie"! OGE's plan helps, but not completely, fix one of the big problems we have. Our PLC DOES choose almost all of the outings it does (Summer camp and Klondike are fixed). But they do so with little thought for their participation in outside activities. We bring school calenders to the planning meeting, and have noted prom and such. Stuff still gets planned for that weekend, then, all of a sudden, all of the leaders get girlfriends and can't be there. Even with prompting to choose a different date, it never seems to happen. We considered making the planning cycle six months, but as another poser pointed out, this doesn't allow for some of the extended planning that is sometimes necessary. Mark

We struggle with this same issue from time to time. We've dealt with it by judging how much of a single pull up was done the first time, measured in quarters, then require improvement. I do, however, like both buffalo2's and KS's solutions. I may discuss this with a few folks and try to adopt one or the other. We've got a boy now who is only a few requirments away from 1st class, but can't get past this Tenderfoot requirement. He did 1/4 of a pull up 11 months ago, and still is doing 1/4 (or less) of a pull up now. His older brother (our newest Eagle Scout) has been working with him on weight training, but it has not helped. Thanks for a great topic! Mark

In our Troop, many things seem to run in cycles. One of them is "Themes". Not like the monthly theme the BSA suggests, but more of a "life lessons" theme that constantly appear, we work through, and then another takes its place. Currently, our theme seems to be personal responsiblity. The idea that the only thing we each can control is our own actions. We are spending a lot of time right now discussing this. We talk about it in the context of Positions of Responsiblity, concerning advancements, and concerning good and bad behavior. We've even discussed it among adults when one adult doesn't agree with the manner another one handles a situation. It's a wonderful concept, really. If we each work on doing the right thing ourselves, and worry less about what someone else does, or how it affects us, most everything will work out in the end. I am not smart enough to presume I can give you advice about how to handle your situation. But if you're struggling with a personality conflict, think about giving this philosphy a try. I think that either you'll end up working things out with your antangonist, or you'll find a way to make the situation at least bearable. Either way, you're likely to be happier. Good luck to you! Mark

May the Saints in Heaven accept your young friend as one of their own. My condolences. Mark

I've only been reading the boards on a hit and miss basis for the last few weeks, so excuse me that my response is a bit slow. I have historically been in the camp of the folks who wanted to provide a boy an oppurtunity to enjoy his journey through Scouting, rather than race through it. I think I've had an epiphany. KoreaScouter's post was excellent. To describe what I got out of it, he seemed to be saying that either a boy will get out of the journey what is intended, or he will learn other important lessons. Either way, the journey was worthwhile. What a great point! Look - I've got my ideas about what I would like boys that I know in Scouting to get out of their experience. And I still think I'm right. But the only two boys who I might be able to endure my ideas are my own sons. The rest I can only hope to influence. I'd like to hope that those boys with whom I have the honor of working "get it". But if a boy (and his parents) have a different idea about what he should get out of this great program, who am I to roadblock that? I have a responsiblity as an Advancement Chair to make sure the advancement policies of the BSA are met. As long as they are, I should only be suggesting that a boy "smell the roses" on the way. If he chooses not to, hopefully he still will get great value from doing Scouting in his own way. Mark

For two weeks I meant to ask here if anyone was going to be at the West Point Camporee this past weekend, but I never seemed to get around to it. Did anyone else go? Our Troop was there. What an experience. If there is any way to get your Troop there, I strongly urge you to try. The area around W.P. is beautiful! The cadets do a wonerful job of putting this on, the events are interesting and provide a great opportunity for Patrols to participate in fun activities utilizing Patrol teamwork and spirit. Logistics (getting to, into, and out of camp) are somewhat tough, but they do the best they can with the resources they have. It really is a a well run event. If you've read many of my posts, you'll be able to recognize a learning concept we stress in our Troop, stolen from the medical profession, called "see one, do one, teach one". We use it all the time in our Troop. It struck us as very interesting that in a large way, the Academy used this camporee the same way. Cadets ran each station. They have to learn about military radio communication, for instance, but this event gave them an opportunity to teach it. They have studied things like logistics, planning, leadership, and such. This is one of their chances to put these skills to practice in an environment that allows for learning. I can't begin to tell you how much more I am jacked up about the techniques we use in our Troop to provide the experiences we do for our boys. The most notable evidence of our Troop program was the cadet that sponsored us. A boy from our Troop, my oldest son't best friend, this young man has truly become a person I am proud to know and have been part of his development. Man, what a weekend! Mark

Mrs. Smith, Thumper stole some of my thunder, but let me tell you of an experience in which I was involved. For the first summer camp for which I was the lead adult, we had a group of 5 2nd year Scouts, most of whom we viewed as overacheivers. One was my son. Early in my career as Adnvancement Chair, I took it upon myself to meet with each Scout, find out what MBs they wanted to work on, and develop a schedule that would allow them to get to each of their classes. These five guys all wanted to work on Lifesaving, Env. Science, and Wilderness Survival. When I worked out the schedule, they had a block of time in the early afternoon that just begged to be filled, and I convinced them all to work on Archery, too. During the week, I watched as they ran from Env. science to the waterfront, then tried to get their observation time in before they had lunch and off to archery. They tried to get in some more observation time before Wilderness Survival, and then did dome more work at the waterfront on Lifesaving. Thumper's vision of report writing is almost identical to mine. I remember going in to check on my son's progress, and seeing these guys all holding flashlights for each other while they wrote their reports. The rumor was that the MB Counselor had a scanner, and he was scanning the reports into his PC and checking the word count to make sure there was 500 words, so they were all counting words, and trying to figure out how to stretch a 400 word report to 500 words. No one was having any fun, and they all let me know that they'd never do that again. Turns out that most finished Lfesaving, Env Science and Wildersness Survival. None finished Archery. My son had to complete Env. Sience at home. He would tell you now that this was one of the best character development efforts he ever had, but it sure wasn't fun. And I have spent 8 years blaming myself for making this summer camp a miserable experience for these guys. If your son understands what trying to tackle so much will cost, and it is HIS choice, I'd certainly let him go for it. But I witnessed 5 guys who would not make that choice for themselves, having gone through the experience once already. Mark

I have a different take. In Cub Scouts, a boy is referred to by the rank he is working toward. A "Bear Cub Scout" is actually a Wolf Scout rank (usually) who is working toward the Bear Rank. If this was an active Cub Leader who has no experience in Boy Scouts, he or she may have simply applied the same thinking to Boy Scout ranks. Whatever the reason, my response would echo Trail Pounders'. "Fantastic" and "make sure they go to summer camp" are the best responses I could come up with. If the same comment persists, a freindly lesson in this one difference between the two programs might be helpful. Mark

Thanks for the kind words! I'm back with a golfer's tan, a bad, bad head cold, and a few extra bucks in my pocket. Seems all my buddies couldn't figure out why I was playing so well and they weren't. And I'm not against making a wager or two on the golf course. Paid off pretty handsomely! but, it's good to be back to my family, my job, and my friends here! Mark

For the few of you who might care, I'm outta here for a week or so. Going to Orlando for a week of golf, then will probably be struggling to get out from underneath the pile on my desk when I return. See you in a couple weeks, but in the meantime... Yours in Scouting, Mark

Oh, and by the way- Welcome to the forums! It's always good to have another friend! Mark

Bob White and others will do a much better job of giving you specific references than I could, so I'll leave that to them. But that won't stop me from offering an opinion about your circumstances. You are charged with teaching your Scouts how to run a quality program for themselves. The CC has the responsiblity to make resources available to allow the Scouts to run their quality program. A Troop of boys is truly lucky if they have a number of adults who recognize opportunities to teach these things to them. But that is only true if every adult who makes that effort is on the same page. So my advise would be to work with the CC and determine if you two (and any other adult who tends to have direct, program contact with the Scouts) see eye to eye on how to deliver the program. If you two can come to a consensus, I think you are a lucky SM to have the help you'll get. If there is a large disagreement over how adults should deliver the program, then a more formal arrangement describing everyone's duties and responsibitites (and what is off limits) would be in order. In other words, try to work with this person if you can. I think you're Troop will enjoy both of you very dedicated people Delivering the Promise. Mark

Congratulations to both of you! I'm sure she will do a very fine job. It's obvious she has a passion for the program, the experiences to keep her pointed in the right direction, and the good fortune to have a mentor who will support her. I'd love to hear more from her here, but I'm betting she's a bit busy, eh? Mark

On a related note, we have a boy who is developing his project now. As he has asked me for guidance, I passed along to him a warning that I know might be urban legend. May a boy solicit and accept cash donations for his Eagle project? I'm certain I have either read or at least heard that this is not allowed - a cash donation must be for a product or a service equal in value. On the other hand, I can't find any policy on this. I see a comment like this in the Unit Fundraising application (I think that's what it was called). But there is no discussion about fundraising for Eagle Projects that I can find except that the project itself cannot be a fundraiser. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks! Mark

My two cents: 1) POR should be assigned by the SPL with input from the SM. 2) The person the SPL thinks would benefit the most from the position, while fulfilling the needs of the Troop, should be assigned the job. 3) Rotating people through PORs is bad policy, except for the P/L and APL of new Scout Patrols. 4) If a boy wants to keep he position, and can convince the SPL and SM that he should, it should be allowed. 5) The SM's input is valuable because he should be the person who knows each Scout, and the needs of each Scout. If the SPL needs a Quartermaster, and the SM knows Joey needs the oppurtunity to develop a new skill, and will be committed to learning the job, then the SM should help guide the SPL toward that choice. This could sound similiar to placing a boy in a position just because he needs it. I disagree. It is trying to match the needs and the desires of a boy with the needs and desires of the job and the Troop. This match is how the leadership method works. 6)Credit toward advancement requirements should NEVER be given to someone who just wore the patch. NEVER. However, it is up to the SPL (or other youth leader) to train the Scout in his responsiblity. And it is up to the SM to assure this training occurs, and is accurate. If this training happens, and continues as a boy faces challenges, if he makes the effort, he should be given creit for the position. A Scout should not "fail" in his task if he tries. He has been sucessful if he learned something from the job. the only failure happens when he puts forth no effort. OK, that was $0.85, but is anyone counting? Mark

Ed, I'm with you. I'd have a tough time following threads with pieces missing. On the other hand, you have to understand why Bob might want to squelch FOG. Bob has been the brunt of some really rude commentary at times. I know you agree with Bob about as often as FOG does, but the point remains that even in disagreement a certain level of decorum should remain, and it hasn't always. I'm not saying that Bob (or anyone) should or should not squelch another poster. But in this case, I understand it. Mark

I'd like to hope that I have called FOG on being rude most of the times when he has been rude. I still wish he would stop, as I think it clouds his message. I don't keep track, but I'd guess I've agreed with the essence of his posts roughly half the time. Although I don't remember him saying women should not be in Scouting, if he did say that, I'd disagree there. But one of his major complaints about the world today is the lower standard we hold youth to (that is me papraphrasing many of his posts). And with that, I agree 100%. There are a few people who I would like to pay more attention to tone. FOG is one. But he is mostly harmless, and has some valid points, even the ones I disagree with. The question I have about ignoring someone is how you would sort out responsies that refer to a post the person being ignored made. Even if someone offended me, I'd rather know what he said than try to guess it when the next guy (or gal) refered to it. Mark

I think you will all get at least a mild kick out of this... After a very sucessful Klondike that our Troop was responsible for, our SM was recruited to to a class at Univeristy of Scouting on boy - led Troops. We had turned the running of the Klondike over to a boy in our Troop who served as SPL for the event. He recruited a staff of youth, who developed their own stations. He recruited the kitchen staff and developed the menu. He recruited three boys who developed the list of prizes to be procurred. On a scale from 1 - 100, this event was about 85% boy led. It impressed the leaders of University of Scouting so much that our SM was asked to do this course in Boy - led Troops. When the SM recruited two boys from our Troop to lead the class, he was told there was no way in hell (that's actually a quote!) that a boy was going to teach a class to adults. 90 percent of the value of the class was intended to be the shock value that adults would get when they encountered two impressive Scouts doing an interactive, engaging presentation without any apparent adult intervention. But it was not allowed. Some things I just don't understand. Mark

SPL is 17. ASPL just turned 15. Venture PL is 17. The two Regular PLs are just shy of 14, and just turned 13. Mark

eisley, In an age when most choices made by young people are based on "what's in it for me?", you have every right to be proud. I think I can imagine your mixed emotions. If the prayers and good wishes of anyone on these forums can help guide him to complete his tasks and return safely, please know that I am doing what I can. Mark

Beav, You describe a scenerio I've seen play out in our Troop more than once, and it ticks me off. The older guys keep saying that the young Scout has to be responsible for his own advancment, and I agree. But when they try to approach an older Scout, they get the brush off, or are told they are interupting, or things like that. The young Scout was trying to do what he was taught, then given a sign that says "don't do it that way". I've even seen my son be one of the older guys, and it angered me then, too. Keep encouraging your son to make his advancement happen. He sounds like he's doing well, even if he's had a road block thrown in his way. To SPLT15, You would be well advised to heed KS's advice. None of the rest of us is likely to phrase the answer as well as he has here. I know your system has a comfort level for you, but as KS says, there are reasons that an organization you respect has developed a method for handling advancement, and it works. This is one situation that might be avoided it you used their system. Mark

FOG, In a return to your previous tone, you've identified a legitimate view about rules and regulations. I don't necesarily disagree with you. I think there is value in spelling things out. But it probably isn't required to abuse someone when you make your point, is it? On another point, I do disagree with you about the turning the popcorn money in on time. This definitely falls under being Trustworthy, if Trustworthy includes being able to be counted upon to complete required tasks. And I think all of the other examples you made would work the same way. But it is easier, I think, to spell expectations out clearly, rather than ask people to figure out what someone means. Imagine if we said "concerning popcorn: Live by the Scout Law and be Trustworthy." People COULD figure this out, but it's certainly not as clear as "Popcorn money is due the 25th." To sum up: The Scout Oath and Law could suffice. It's better to be more clear. There's no need to be mean when you make your point. Mark

Are you all right there, Eamonn? You better be careful - Seems like you got some bade pipe tobacco! Mark

Barry, While understanding that the world doesn't revolve around me, I can't help but feel that based on a previous conversation you and I had, this thread is pointed at least partially at me. Point no longer! I'm signed up! Thanks for all you help, and I'll make sure I follow up like you asked me to do. Mark