mk9750

I meant to add this to my previous post. One of the reasons I believe we struggle keeping new Scouts who cross over from Cub Scouts units that run Sept. thru May is that we often encounter a conversation like this at the crossing: SM: We're glad to have you with our Troop! We have a number of exciting things planned. Families: Like what? SM: Well, we have our new Scout camp out at the beginning of June, where last year's class of new Scouts will teach your son's how to pack, set up camp, build a fire, cook a meal, and teach them woods tools skills so they can earn their totin' chit. Boys: Wow, COOL! SM: Then, in June, we do a campout at the big resivior here, where you guys will get the chance to learn how to canoe, and you'll probably get a chance to try kayaking a little, too! Boys: Wow, Really Cool! SM: Then, at the end of July, we'll go to summer camp, where you'll use a lot of the skills you've learned so far. You'll get the chance to work on some requirments both at camp and back at our campsite, and you may even earn a merit badge or two! Boys: Man, I can't wait! SM: Then, in August, we'll do a Patrol Campout, where you guys will get to camp on your own, with your Troop guide and a couple of adults, but with none of the other guys around. that way you guys can practice what you've learned so far, without those guys interfering. By the time you get done with that, you'll feel like you've really become an outdoorsman. Boys: Terrific! SM: So make sure you start coming to our weekly meetings right away. You'll learn many of the skills to make you safe and allow you to enjoy yourself at the outings. We meet every Tuesday at the church. Families: You mean during the summer? Since when did Scouts meet in the summer? We never did in Cub Scouts! Man, we've got summer plans, vacation, baseball, and family picnics. We'll see you in September. And so it goes. Up unitl a few years ago, we could get 10 - 15 guys a year cross. It's down quite a bit now, but even when it was high, it was rare to get more than 5 or 6 guys actually start with the Troop. I'm only one lowly voice. But I really believe that it's vital to keep meeting in the summer, even if it's less often. Condition boys (and even more their families) to Scout during the summer, and I'll bet that retention rates at least double. Mark

Our Troop meets 50 Tuesdays a year unless a holiday falls on a Tuesday. We skip the week after summer camp and the week between Christmas and New Years. However, we have an Advancement Marathon on New Year's Eve day. The older guys come and work with the young guys on rank advancements that boys may have missed over the course of the year All have pizza ans pop for lunch, then most of the younger guys go home and the older guys work on MBs. I usually have been able to get 8 - 10 counselors there who could cover 20 - 30 MBs if boys are interested. After that's done, they usually have arranged a sleepover at someone's house for New Year's Eve night. This past year it was mine. We had a blast with them! I'd be afrraid for our Troop if we didn't keep the momemtum going by meeting every week. If your Troop can maintain a consistent program without meeting every week, I admire you. I don't think we could. As far as Cub Scouts go, when I was a Den Leader, we met every week except the week of the Pack meeting between the start and end of school. This included the fifth week of the month when they occurred, but those were always an outing, like to Pizza Hut or a Putt Putt course. During the summer, we met every other week, with no dues owed, and only a requirement that a single uniform piece be worn, no matter what it was. Most guys started hooking their slide on thier pant belt loops. One week we had crazy uniform day, where everyone made up their idea of the craziest uniform that they could think of. Our Den is still the only Den I've every heard of to meet regularly through the summer. We started as a Bear Den, so we only had two summers to do this. But when I've discussed this with others, they all ask how I kept kids from quitting. When the Den started, we had 7 boys. When we were done, we had 11, and only one of the original boys had quit. I'm convince it was BECAUSE we met during the summer that this Den stayed together so well. Resting inertia didn't have to be overcome every September. Were I ever to go back to be a Den Leader (God forbid - PLEASE!) I'd do it exactly the same. Good question! Good discussion! Mark

I agree with the assembled quorum. I also strongly disagree with the SM. A well trained Den Chief who fulfills all of the expectations of his office is just as much a leader as is an SPL, and, depending on the circumstances, maybe more so. We actually ask our former SPLs to take on Den Chief and then Troop Giude positions AFTER they serve as SPL, not before. We try to get Scouts to see that Asst. Patrol Leader and ASPL are where they learn leadership, Patrol Leader and SPL are where they intern, and Den Chief and Troop Guide are where they put there skills to practice. Please ask your SM not to short change the importance of Den Chief. Mark

Thanks all for great replies. Let me reply (somewhat ramdomly) to many of the points: I appreciate Eamonn's comments. They are what I was hoping to get (an explaination of what the District folks should do), and his list is just about what I thought they should do (What is an EMS Commissioner?). However, what Eamonn suggests is not even close to what has happened here so far. I wish it were. I feel our Troop DOES have a responsiblity to help this unit. I think each of us has a responsiblity to help provide the opportunity for Scouting to every eleigble boy. It's easy to see this in a "micro" view, just looking at out Troop, but I think we each are asked to work in a "macro" sense, too. It's why when we are visited by potential new Scouts, we give each of them the list of other Troops in the area. We believe we have the best program in the area. But we know that our program may not line up with what a boy wants. Better he find what he is looking for in another Troop than not join Scouting all together. My choice of the words "ill equipped" concerning the COR was inappropriate. The Men's Club of a Catholic Parish is our CO. The Men's Club mission is to promote athletics and other youth activities in the parish. And the way I stated that is how they view it. Athletics is king, and other things, like Scouts, get almost no real support from them. Our COR has almost no leverage with the Men's Club because we are not the football team or the basketball team. He's tried, and done his best. It isn't likely anyone else would do better. Troopmom257's idea is almost the same as our plan. Our SM, one of the ASM's and I have identified four people who we think would be tremendous in th roles of Cubmaster and CC, if they agreed to take the jobs. One was me as CM, but I am not a member of the parish, and feel it would be inappropriate for me to take the job. One has no interest in going "back to" Cub Scouts without a son there. The other two have both been Den Leaders and Cubmasters. One is terrific at administrative stuff in our Troop, and I've approached him to consider taking the CC role if we need to implement our plan. The other made a heck of a lot better CM for the year in between the two years I had the job in another Pack than I did. He was great, and he is a parishioner in this church. He's also a member of the Men's Club. I've approached him to consider being the CM if we act. I asked to have an answer over this weekend, so that we can present a firm plan to the District folks. As to the unit commisioner, sad to say he will be of no help, I believe. Rather than tell you stories to support why he appears to be ineffective, which he has been, he's also been MIA during all of the conversations about this. He won't be of much help. The current Pack Committee will react one of two ways, we believe. They will either step aside or quit once people are willing to do the work for them, as they have not done it themselves, or they will see the potential of the unit with active leadership and pitch in and help. I think it will be the first. But one thing that I am certain is that these folks will not do it on their own. They either need a visable strong leader, or to be replaced. CubsRgr8 is correct. I admit that one of the reasons we as a Troop have made this a priority is because we will soon begin to fail if we can't count on boys from within this parish to cross. We get a boy or two every year from other Packs, but over the last 4 years, we've had (I'm guessing) an average of 2 boys cross from our Pack, while we've had an average of 4 boys a year graduating out of the Troop. We've gone from 47 members to 23 in the last four years, and literally, we've had 5 guys total quit. We're dying by attrition, and the root cause is a lack of Cubs available in our "little brother" Pack to recruit. We want to do this for noble reasons, but the first motivation for our efforts was certainly selfish. Thanks all for you great comments. Sorry my response is so long. I though I had overcome that deficiency. Mark

Four three years now, the adult leadership in our Troop have watched our "little brother" pack spiral into the depths of dispair. Currently, their roster includes a Cubmaster who is desparately trying to dump his job, A committee Chair whose son graduated out of the program last spring and went no where. She won't return anyones calls concerning Scouting. Our COR is also their COR, and, even though he is a great guy, he is ill equipped to be of service to either unit. He's also listed as a committee member on the charter, just to get to three (I asume). Our District Executive is listed as the Tiger Cub Coach. There is no Asst. CM, nor are there any Den Leaders. The youth roster includes 13 boys after we subtract the 5 who graduated out of the program in May. 3 crossed to our Troop, and seem to be doing well. None of their leaders are listed as trained on the roster we got from Council. As Troop Leaders, a number of us have recognized that something must be done. We actually came to this realization last year at this time, when we requested that District help be brought in. I think that's how our DE's name got on the roster. We have REPEATEDLY asked to be of whatever help we can, and have alternately sat back and waited to be asked so that we were not pushing ourselves on them, to actively campaigning to be included in the committee meetings (which we don't think actually happen), and asking any members from their committee to join ours. No response. We've attempted to provide Den Chiefs, with no response. We've invited Webelos to both Troop meetings and outings, and only get an answer when Arrow of Light is important. We again contacted the DE yesterday about this. His response was to say "I guess it's time to do another recruiting night there". When we asked how successful that would be without viable core leadership in place, he didn't really have an answer. We have no idea how this problem SHOULD be handled. We have a plan that we are ready to implement if asked. But before we do anything, I'd like to get some wise counsel from you folks here. If you've ever been in a position to work on a problem like this (DC, ADC, UC, DE?), what is the prescribed course? How effective was it? Any ideas you can provide for how the "big brother" Troop can be of help? Thanks in advance for your responses. Mark

Almost all of the fees for activites in our Troop are paid via fund raisers. Both youth and Scouts get credit for the amount of time they spend at a fundraiser. For example, if we make $1,000.00 on a car wash, the Troop puts $200.00 into the general fund for expenses like awards, registration fees for the trailer and kayaks, ect. $800.00 gets divided up among all participants in the fundraiser on a percentage basis. If your 3 hours there is 2.5% of the whole amount of time there, you get 2.5%, or $20.00, in you Scout account, from which you can pay event fees. Adults pay the same fees as Scouts do, except for summer camp every other year, where the camp allows for a certain number of free adults. All adults wh oattend that summer camp split the actual cost of all adults attending. We pay 1/2 for all training, youth and adult, with consideration given to paying more if a special need exists. We reimburse actual gas expenses on longer trips. We don't seem to have a problem with finding adults for events. I can't think of an event when we had less than 5 or six adults in attendance, and often more. Mark

We have asked the SPL to add this topic to next week's PLC. We don't currently reimburse drivers for local campouts (20 minutes or so each way), but we have lost money on recent longer outings, including summer camp, by reimbursing for actual gas expenses. I suspect that the PLC will elect to accrue a portion of their next fundraiser to a gasoline account, and pay drivers out of that. It's how they have decided to handle other expenses like the cost of replacing climbing ropes, cleaning supplies for rifles and shotguns, and replacing kayaking paddles and such. MArk

I also agree that all answers are on the mark. However, there was one small question that no one has addressed. "Does the committee ever come into it?" Gabe does ask a valid question. All of the answers given are valuable. However, they become much more difficult to follow through with if there is influence from those outside the program, which is really what committee members are ~ outside the program. This problem is minimized in Troops lucky enough to have committee members who truly understand the program and its design. But when those who are untrained attempt to insert themselves as Gabe may be suggesting, it will be necesary for the SM or ASMs to run some interference. I agree - Great thread! Mark

I staple patches in place while I sew. I've given up on trying to preserve the pocket when I sew a temporary patch on the pocket. However, removing the pocket is a new idea to me. I may try that! Mark

To answer Bob's specific question, because I think it was directed at me: Yes, I vote for people I dislike often. I will do it again this November. I mean not to hijack this thread, and will not respond to further discussion about it, but I held one of the Presidential candidates in very high regard. Now, not so much. Too many half truths for my taste. But I still think he's the better man for the job than the other guy. This has happened more than I can list. And quite frankly, I have NOT voted for people I like. As a matter of fact, our SM ran for a judicial position a few years ago. I think he's a terrific guy. But I've had lengthy discussions with him about some of the most common issue before the bench on which he would have sat, and I disagree with him. Voted for his opponent. And I even told him I did. I recognize that many Scout age boys are not going to be as noble about their responsiblity as that. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't coach them to be. As to this exact situation, I stand by the major point of my response. Someone should be helping this boy become electable or appointable to a PoR, rather than accomodating him, if at all possible. Good weekend all. Between HS football games, two Eagle Boards of Review, a Troop camp improvement project,and a company golf outing, I'll be mighty busy this weekend. Mark

Merlyn, 2nd thing first. You are right, I did not read the decision. I can't even say I know all of the details. After consideration, I don't really know enough about the specifics to carry on a legitimate conversation about it. I will disqualify myself from further conversation about Balboa Park. As to whethter the Government should sponsor / charter / recognize organizations that discriminate, they do all the time! Do they recognize labor unions? And don't labor unions discriminate against business owners? Does it charter the American Red Cross (charter might not accurately reflect the relationship - I'm not sure)? Would the Red Cross hand me money like they do victims of natural disasters? I'm not suggesting they should, but the fact that they treat one class of people differently (non - victims) than another class is discrimination. We all discriminate. You discriminate against those of us who support the BSA's position. I discriminate against those who thing atheists and homosexuals belong in the BSA. I also discriminate against surloin steak. I prefer strip steaks. We probably both discriminate against murderers. So why does discrimination by one group preclude them from consideration by the government? It's easy to say racial discrimination is wrong, as are many of the other discriminations ennumerated by the government. I don't think it's so easy for other types. My point is that your answer to my question above is probably that discrimination against any group as listed by the government is wrong. It just isn't that simple. I say either the government should treat all discrimination equally (No more fat jokes! I like it!!!), or allow everyone to go back to what worked for years and years ~ We all knew what we thought was right and wrong, and acted according to our oun standards. You know, both this response and my last have even me thinking I ramble. I suspect maybe I should just retreat from the battle completely. Mark

Merlyn, Sorry, I guess I'll disappoint you. As wrong as I think it is for someone to hate black people, I think it is their right to be wrong. If someone wants to despise homosexuals as people, rather than just their actions, I can't commend that, but I respect the right they have to hold that belief. If someone stands behind the ideals that Scouting represents, that is their perrogative, too. Now if any of those people want to form a group and espouse their beliefs together, that is their right too, as long as they do not infringe on the rights and freedoms of others. Thus, individual members of the Ku Klux Klan and the Boys Scouts of America have the right to exist and flourish in American society, both individually and collectively. The government provides special treatment to lots of groups. Some (maybe many) of these, discriminate. And some even discriminate on the basis of the list of things the government says we can't. But to say the Ku Klux Klan doesn't get special treatment in the vast dollars local governments are forced to spend to allow their rallies is niave. To say the the governement itself doesn't discriminate itself is just as niave. If any group gets special treatment because they were able to negotiate it, they deserve it. If being a group that represents the type of character most of America prefers (like the BSA) gets them an advantage in negotiations, terrific. But you get what you deserve, most of the time. If the BSA got a great deal in Balboa Park, or other cases, they deserved it. IF the contract came up again and they couldn't negotiate the same deal (FOR WHATEVER REASON), then you'd never hear a peep from me. But to take away a right they earned (by negotiation), IS DISCRIMATION! Sorry to diappoint. Mark

KS, I love when you post. Please post more. Great story! MArk

Merlyn, I disagree vehemently with your basic message. And that hasn't changed. But you should be congratulated for being fair and recognizing a wrong in this case. Although you will never convince me that your are right, you just earned some respect. I'd love to see you do more to keep it. My question in cases like this is why an anti - (anything - that - is - PC) attitude precludes groups like the BSA from utilizing property that the public owns, when one could just as easily put together a group that all seperately have the same attitude but would be allowed to use the same property. And to take it a step further, why is anti - homosexuals AS MEMBERS worse than the Ku Klux Klan, who seem to be able to use public property almost at will? Mark

Joni, Has your Scoutmaster given any thought to helping ween the guys off of their dependence on MB activity by asking the PLC to plan activites that would allow qualified instructors (youth where possible) to learn and put into practice the skills needed for a MB that the PLC chose? For example, if your PLC decided that they would like to have a campout that emphasizes Pioneering, one of the older Scouts who has demostrated an interest in the topic could be delegated the responsibilty to plan the program for a weekend campout at which older boys could instruct younger boys in rope making, lashing, and the construction of pioneering projects. Along the way, younger boys could learn and be tested on their First Class requirments, and begin getting information that would help them complete Pioneering IF THEY CHOSE TO PURSUE IT. The older guys get the experience of teaching, which is obviously a valuable skill. We also see much value in youth teaching in that they learn the skill better. During the weekend, or in the run up to the event during meetings, it is not inappropriate for a MB instructor to use a few minutes to introduce the MB and its requirements to the Troop, and to give the Scouts a heads up as to what they might want to concentrate on if they decide to work on the badge. The rate at which MBs are earned may slow, unless each Scout pursues advancement on his own, but your Troop will move toward being a model Troop. Mark

Scoutnut and Bob both make excellent points. I'd like to add a additional perspective. A Scout who is not elected or selected for a position of responsiblity could be the subject of a popularity contest. When this happens it is sad, and someone (the Scoutmaster) should be doing something to teach his young men the value of selecting leaders based on something more than popularity. It is also possible that the Troop is electing and selecting leaders based on good judgement, and not just popularity. If that is the case, then I would suggest that your son make an effort during this current term of office to provide a reason for his Troop and Patrol mates to want him to serve. My personal believe is that your son will most likely learn more from fulfilling his responsiblity in a regular position than one that is created for him. Certainly, there is a place for the option you suggest. I do not mean to be critical of that plan. But I'd strongly suggest that your son try to work through the "normal" process before trying to go a different route. Good luck to your son. He deserves the best we have to offer, and I wish for him that he gets nothing less. Mark

Ken, CONGRATULATIONS! You are about to experience what I think is THE BEST job in Scouting! If I were told I had to forfeit every other responsiblity and priveledge I have in Scouting but one, this would be the one I'd hang onto for dear life. And every time I have the honor of participating in another one, this attitude only grows stronger. I admit that the first few will seem awkward, but as you get comfortable, I really believe you'll grow to love it! As to questions, I think much of that depends on the age and rank of the boy being reviewed. For younger Scouts, I try to make sure they have an understanding of their relationship in their Patrol, if they know how to make suggestions to their P/L for discussion at the PLC. I ask them to describe their first camping experiences, to make sure that they are making an effort to be part of the Patrol team, and to make sure that they are being given that chance. For middle age guys, and for guys reviewing for First Class, I stress asking about their views of leadership, and find out where they think they fit in within their Patrol and within the Troop as far as leadership goes. I ask them what they've learned about leadership, who in the Troop and in their personal life has demonstrated good leadership skills, and maybe some examples of not - so - good leadership. For the older guys / higher ranks, I start asking more probing questions about how their understanding of the Scout Law and Oath shapes their actions. I try to get them to bring out that as a young Scout, the Scout Oath and Law had a rather shallow meaning, but as they've matured, their view has changed. I try to lead them to discuss how they might apply their ideals to everyday teenage decisions. And I always get older Scouts to pinpoint their plans for "giving back to the Troop" in positions of responsiblity. For all ranks, I ask what were the hardest, easiest, and most important skills they learned. Most often, the answer seems to be that whatever was the hardest is the most important, and I try to lead them to making that connection. Other than these guidelines, I really have no set list of questions. I'd rather let the conversation go where it takes us. But toward the end, I usually find a place for some or all of the following: "Who is your hero?" "What older Scout do you admire and why?" "If there were a 13th point to the Scout Law, what should it be?" (that's one of my favorites). "Do you deserve the rank of ____? Why?" If I can offer one bit of advise, there is a great way you can be much better at this than I am. I dominate Boards of Review, and don't let my partners get in many questions. I know this is a flaw, but I abhor silence in these things. When I've acknowledged that it's time for someone else to junp in, and they hesitate, I can't keep myself from asking the next question. If you can avoid this, you'd start off being way better than me at it. Good luck to you! I hope you find this process as enjoyable as I do. It really is the best task in Scouting! Mark

Well, it's interesting what I learn when you read info provided by people smarter than me! Our SM for years and years has used the term "toot" for this command while writing directions for Courts of Honor. I have tried to tell him that that can't be the command, especially with Scouts, because the response is not likely going to be pretty. But his policeman father had told him this was correct, so there it stayed, until my son's Eagle Scout CoH, when I insisted he change this to "to". He did so unwillingly, and changed it back once that CoH was done. My theory on why it should be "to" was that it likely was shortened from a phrase like "to side" or "return to attention" or something like that. So I guess I was just as wrong as the SM. That's what I get for not doing the research, eh? Mark

Bob, I work with a Troop. We utilize the following positions within our committee: Committee Chair (Does a fantastic job with all of the paperwork for rechartering, Tour Permits, canoe and trailer registrations and such, but hates the "people management" side of the position) Assistant Committee Chair (Me - I run the committee meeting for the Chair, and between the two of us, determine candidates for other responsiblities. I then do the recruiting) Adavancement Chair (Me) Treasurer Equipment coordinator (works with the Troop Quartermaster. Helps the Quartermaster prepare a report for Committee meetings on status of equipment and future needs, and teaches the QM how to repair equipment) Librarian / Scribe Coordinator (supports the Librarian and Scribe. This position doesn't do much anymore. we finally got the Scouts trained to handle most of this themselves) Cub Pack Liasons (4) (We have four adults, usually parents who have a boy in both the Troop and a Cub Pack, to help maintain a flow of communication between the two organizations) Fundraising Chair (This person works with a Scout assigned by the SPL to determine what funds will be needed for the upcoming 6 - 12 month period, and develop fundraising activites to support this. Training Chair (bird dogs the Troop's training, maintains records to make sure everyone stays up to date (common stuff like YP, and more unique things like NRA certification and BSA Lifegaurd) I think that's it. We actually have just about one adult per family registered on our committee, and all have some function. For instance, my wife's sole responsiblity is to cut and sew Scout's names onto our Honor Banner as they advance. But all help out in some way. We currently have 23 boys in the Troop, and we usually have 12 - 15 people at our committee meetings. In addition, our SM, a few ASMs and our SPL attend committee meetings. I'm curious why you ask? Mark

Marlene, First, welcome!! Let's see... The skills he displayed were practically forced into him much the same as a math teacher learns more about math by teaching it. Our Troop runs its entire program on the same model as physician's training - See one, Do one, Teach one. When Scouts first cross over, they are exposed to older Scouts who do presentations, make up games and competitions, and then test and sign off requirments for the new guys. As the new guys become more and more proficient at skills, the older Scouts do less for them and more supervision. By the time they have been in the Troop a year to two, they are pretty skilled. At that point, they become the teachers for the new guys. It is THIS work that provides the real learning, we believe. People can learn well by listening and seeing, they learn better by doing. But to truly master a skill, one should teach it. And that's what we do. Although my son loves the outdoors and regular camping, hiking is just not his cup of tea. He is still active as a 19 year old ASM, and gets to as many campouts as his college schedule permits. But at least for the time being, hiking is not high on his priority list. Yes, crews preparing for a major hike participate in plenty of shake down hikes before they embark on their trip. These guys left in early April, but they were doing between 5 and 12 miles every Sunday morning from mid January on. Each hike included one of them displaying his pack and others crtiquing it, practicing their meals, and reviews of wise hiking practices. Same goes if we go whitewater kayaking, rapelling, or shooting. Preparation makes for a far more successful outing. Thanks for the nice message! Mark

I know I've told this story before, but it might be worthwhile to repeat. 5 years ago, at 14, my oldest son accompanied the Venture Patrol on a hike of the Appalachian Trail. They were just south of Smokey Mountain State Park. Almost "one foot in N.C., one foot in Tennessee". Along the way is Klingman's dome, a structure from which you can see "forever", as my son tells it. The first 4 days of the trip were not pleasant for my son. He wasn't as prepared as he could have been for the physical and mental challenges of an agregate total of over 17,000 feet of ascent (the net was less than 2,000 feet, but right there, the trail is up and down and up and down). Once they got to Klingman's dome, they dropped their packs, went to the top, looked around, had dinner, rested a bit, and decided to get on the trail again. Being miserable, my son lagged in getting his pack on and keeping with the group. He had been complaining for most of the four days, and I'm sure everyone in the group, including his buddy, was somewhat relieved when they weren't stuck listening to him whine. So off they went, with my son about 10 minutes behind everyone else. Klingman's dome, as I understand, is situated in a meadow with many paths leading into and out of the area. My son couldn't recognize which path he should take to get back to the trail. After checking out the first few hundred feet of a few of them and returning to the meadow, he decided to check his map. Off came the pack, out came the map. By the time he had himself comfortable with which way he had to proceed, it was getting dark quickly. They hiked during Easter break, and that year the time still hadn't changed, so it was getting dark @ 7:00. He felt comfortable that he had enough daylight to get back to the trail, so off he went. Once he got to the trail, he unloaded all his food, took it 300 - 400 feet downwind,and hung a bear bag. He went back to his pack, on the trail, found his rain suit and used it as a ground cloth. He laid his sleeping bag on the rain suit in the middle of the trail, laid down, and began blowing his wistle three times every five minutes or so. He said he never was nervous. He was very confident someone would be back to find him. About an hour and a half later, someone did. Two of the crew had been sent back to look for him ,and were just about ready to give up and turn back to camp, when they heard the whistle. Another 1/4 mile back down the trail, and there he is. Once my wife and I heard the story, we had two very different reactions. My wife was petrified that a bear could have gotten him. I kept hearing "Dueling Banjoes" as the story came out. But regardless, as disappointed that I was that my son had been so miserable, I was extremely proud that he followed all of the instructions he had been given, and apparently with a very clear head. Doing less may have made things turn out worse. But by following all he had been taught, he has a great story to tell for the rest of his life. He ended up hiking 113 miles over 9 days, never losing sight of his buddy again. Although he never went again, that trip may have been his Waterloo. He truly became a man in his own eyes on that trip. I hope for such positive outcomes for anyone who finds themself lost in the wilderness. Training and some very basic equipment can go a long way to helping. but a little luck and a helping hand from the Great Scoutmaster may be the best assistance. Mark

EagleKY, Thanks for the link. I'll check it out as soon as I'm done here. The list you have here is all "0" in your post. But perhaps the link will provide some help. Ron, Chinese characters would be great, but even if it were an English version of the Chinese word, I could use that. Our WB Patrol has to do a presentation on a topic of diversity, and we're doing Scouting around the world. When we got the assignment, the PL assigned China to me. I don't think she liked me too much to start. But it's all good now. We're having fun. Thanks for the help so far! Mark

What are the chances that one of our forum members is fluent in either Chinese or Taiwanize? I am working on a Woodbadge project and would like to show the Scout law of either Hong Kong or Taiwan in both English and each of these languages. If any of you could translate (or know where to find a direct translation for) the Scout Law in either language, please let me know. The Scout Law in Taiwan is: Honesty Loyalty and Filial Devotion Helpfulness Loving Kindness Courtesy Justice Responsibilty Cheerfulness Industriousness and Thrift Courage Cleanness Public Spirit. The Scout law in Hong Kong is: 1. A Scout is to be trusted. 2. A Scout is loyal. 3. A Scout is friendly and considerate. 4. A Scout belongs to the world-wide family of Scouts. 5. A Scout has courage in all difficulties. 6. A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property. 7. A Scout has self respect and respect for others. Any help you can give me, especially if it is by Friday night, would be VERY helpful! Thanks! Mark

I am perhaps the newest Bear on the forums. I have suspected for some time that OGE and I are long lost brothers. Just another piece in the puzzle. Mark

Funny... Most people end that sentence right after "I hope you go away." I Appreciate the kind words. Mark