mk9750

I think AdvanceOn hit the home run. I would place an emphasis in his thought that if the only way for your older son to participate is having his lttle brother along with him, you should be the one providing the activity to keep him occupied and away from the Den. Scouting is designed to be an age appropriate activity at most every age level. The BSA has not attempted to provide a program for 3 year olds yet, so if he must be there, you should find a way to keep him from being a disruption from the Den. Not always easy, I know. The Den Leader probably ought to be more understanding of the situation, too. One other thing I though I'd throw in. You mentioned your desire to accompany your son to Den meetings when he becomes a Wolf. Unless you hold a Den Leader or Asistant Den Leader position, I think that this is probably a mistake. Most kids respond well to being out from under Mom and Dad's wings about the age of 7 - 8. As a Den leader in the past, I've seen two cases where parents couldn't let go of a boy who is ready to participate in the minor independence Cub Scouting provides, and from the perspective of outside that family, it was easy to see the harm that was done. I would certainly make sure I have met and are very comfortable with the Den Leader and Assistant Den Leader, and I would make sure I was welcome to drop in on a meeting whenever I wanted, and do so from time to time a couple of times in the first month or so. But I think in the long run, your son will be much better off if you alow him to oppurtunity to experience Scouting the way it was designed. This is one of the big points I made when trying to recruit Den Leaders. If you want to be a part of your son's Scouting life, the best seat in the house is as a Den Leader! Good luck. I know you, your Cub, and your Cub - to - be will be just dandy! Mark

I second the arrow idea Stan mentioned. One year when I was Cubmaster, the Den Leader of the Den crossing to Boy Scouts did the same thing. She was kind enough to make one for me as the Master of Ceremonies for the crossing, and to this day, 10 years later, it still hangs as the focal point of my Scout memorabilia in my office. And it had nothing to do with me! I'll bet that the boys really treasure theirs! When I was the Den Leader with boys crossing, we did three things for their crossing. First, I asked each family to fund me purchasing duplicate badges to match what each boy had on his uniform. I bought frames and some material, sewed fake shirts (including fake pockets and placate, eupelets, and a sleeve!) and glued all of their badges, belt loops, cords, etc., on the "shirt", and presented it to each boy. There is an item in the Scout Catalogue like this, but the frame and shirt alone is like $45.00 or so, so I made it myself. I have also done this for one of the two boys who made Eagle for all his Boy Scout stuff. The other boy, my son, has his C of H next month, and I'll be doing one for him, too. During one of our last Webelos meetings, I asked the boys to take 20 minutes or so and try to remember all of the things we had done as a Den. They called them off... Natural History Museum, snowball fights, hike, etc. There ended being 164 different things they listed. I wrote them all down, and using the simple WORDART program I had at the time, made a collage of all of the things they had done. Different colors, fonts, direction, and styles made for an interesting picture. I framed a copy for each boy and gave this to them also. The last thing we did was the closing cermemony. We did the bridge crossing thing, but when they crossed, the Boy Scouts who recieved us led the boys out of the meeting as Taps was played, first in the room, then in the hall, then from way down the hall, then from outside, then from the edge of the property, so that it sounding like it was receding while the boys left. I still have boys and adults talk about that being one of the most memorable things they ever saw at a Cub Scout meeting. Good luck with yours! Mark

BW and littlebillie, I think your points are very valid. However, if I can speak for Ed, I think you miss our points. Lets run some numbers: 119 Merit Badges x 8 requirements (my estimate. Also remember that many requirements have an A B C breakdown, too) = 952 requirements. A boy who crosses over exactly on his 11th birthday (I use this for simplicity's sake) has 364 weeks until he turns 18. that means he must average 2.62 requirements per week in order to earn all 119 MBs. Sure, some are easy to knock off even if the Counselor is tough. But there are plenty of requirements that are much tougher. Is a Scout who does almost three requirements per week for seven straight years really getting even the bare minimum the MB program was designed for (exposure to a topic and the experience of working with an adult knowledgable and enthusiatic about the topic)? Let's take the above example and assume this boy did all of the work, but did only the bare requirements for, say, Diability Awareness. In his rush to get to the next badge, he may have missed the chance to be exposed to something the MB Counselor knew that he didn't have time to discuss because the Scout was trying to finish this one up and start the next one. And that one bit of information, so unimportant to the Scout in his quest for one of 119 badges, would have been the info he would have used to pursue a career in the Medical field. Or helped him make choices about his family's care when he was in a position to need the info years later. Or give him one more point of view that would have prevented him from offending someone. Yeah, I know I discuss an hypothetical situation that borders on ridiculous. But with 118 more chances to repeat this scenerio on this Scout's quest, something like this almost HAS to happen. If it's a city boy who may never have to milk a cow who missed something extra in the diary production section of that badge, or an Amish boy who din't quite learn how to change the oil in a car doing Auto Mechanics, no big deal. But somewhere along the line, adults who participated knowingly in this have done the young man a disservice. This same attitude then, should extend to the Scout working on Eagle. Don't add to the requirements, I agree. But every Scout, whether he makes Eagle or not, whether he earns 119 MBs or two or three, deserves every bit of the benefit we as adults can give them. And if that means not rushing so he can fill his sash, or be Eagle at 12, and that is wrong, then kick me out. I won't participate in what I see as a charade. Long winded again, but only because it's important (Do I get any awards for the most words per post?). Mark

Twocub (or Mr. Dad, if you prefer), You make a very valid point. I certainly do not want to have come off soundling as though this Scout isn't deserving of a boat load of admiration. He does, and them some. But I also admire men like my father, and George Bush (sr. and Jr.), and many other men who are not Eagle Scout. I admire them for what they have done, and in some cases, overcome. It is in this light that I admire Jedediah. He obviously has succeeded, regardless if we "earned" all of these badges or not, just by the dedication, perserverance, and determination to reach a goal. I question, as did others, whether it is possible for anyone to have satisfactorily completed every requirement for that many badges. If he did not, then he shouldn't be celebrated for having done so. But even if he didn't he deserves much credit for the work he put forth, especially considering his physical situation. But the conversation turned from admiration for this Scout to a discussion on general terms about young Scouts and Eagle and Merit Badges. And, although I leave open the possiblity that young men like this can do remarkable things, I just don't think it is deserved with the regularity with which it happens. Mark

I don't want to be so presumtuous as to say NO 12 year old could be a legitimate Eagle Scout, or that a Scout couldn't earn over 100 MBs. I've not met every boy in the program. But I can tell you that of the 100 - 125 boys with which I have been associated, including some highly motivated and very intellegent boys, not one of them could have done either of these things. I'll admit, it is possible to actually complete the requirements to be Eagle Scout at 12, but could they have gotten everything out of the program that the program was designed to offer? I just don't think so. As I have mentioned in other threads, as a MB Counselor for Personal Management, I guess I have to admit that any boy could complete these requirements. But look at some of them: Do a budget. Make a resume. Make a plan for living on your own. Can a 12 year old get the same value out of doing these that a 15, 16, 17 year old can? Sorry, but I don't believe so. I love the comment made here about earning Eagle Scout -vs- Being an Eagle Scout. All of the experiences that go into being an Eagle Scout accumulate over the Scouting career of a boy. In a perfect wold (OK, im my view of a perfect world), a boy progresses naturally through the ranks to Eagle about his 16th birthday, give or take a year for the realities of that boy (other activities, scholastics, motivation and maturity, to name a few). Then, he has about two more years to cement his standing as an Eagle Scout by giving back to his Troop, and taking his knowledge and experience out into the community. For some, this is working at summer camp or Council JLT, for others it is being the example of what an Eagle Scout is at School and around town (even if some don't know that he is an Eagle). When he reaches 18, he then has a solid backround from which he can do so many things: Decide on a career path, eventually start a family, begin influencing the youth he will associate with through his children. It is only fair to allow for those who do it faster. Dsteele is a great example. I think he said he was 13 when he earned his Eagle, and everything I've seen him say supports the fact that it wan't given to him. I'm am sure there are others. But I'll go out on a limb and say that for every one legitimate 12 - 13 year old Eagle Scout, there are 20 other 12 -13 Eagles who didn't deserve it, and don't live it now. And if my ratio is anywhere near correct, isn't that a shame? My best story to support my position comes from a fellow Den Leader when I was active in Cub Scouts. He showed up at the first pack meeting with four knots on his new uniform, including one for Eagle Scout. He said he included the others because he would earn them eventually, and it was easier for his wife to sew them all on at once (he never did go through any kind of training, and I never saw him at a round table, so I am very suspicious about whether he ever did earn Den Leader). He bragged about being the youngest Eagle Scout in his Council. I never asked him how old he was. But I did ask him what he did for his Eagle project. He couldn't remember! I've helped 13 Scouts on their Eagle projects, and I can assure you not one of them will EVER forget what he did. But this guy didn't have a clue what he did. He did say that he did it 100% by himself. He was bragging that no one had to assist him. Obviously, he never caught on to the fact that it is a project designed to display leadership. I admit to having a bit of a sour taste in my mouth about young Eagles because of this guy. But when I put togehter his experience and compare it to the guys in our troop, none of whom deserve to have been Eagle much before 16, I think it may be obvious why I disagree whith allowing it to happen. The other day, our SM and I were talking about advancement policies. I made the comment, and he agreed, that, if asked to defend how we regulate advancement, we could never do so. I don't think we break any rules, but certainly we bend them. For instance, as a Personal Mgt. Counselor, I just won't agree to work on the badge with someone who does not have a part time job. I'm pretty certain I am allowed to say yes or no to a Scout who approaches me about working on a badge. I am just as certain I can't add a requirement, which needing a job sounds like. So obvbiously, there is a dichotomy in my position. But, neither of us would every consider changing our philosophy. We have seen the value that asking boys to meet high standards has. Not once has any of the Scouts (Eagle or otherwise) complained. Rather, we have current boys, we have former Scouts, and we have multitudes of parents congratulate us on how we do things. And we have had Scouts who have come back from doing MB work with Counselors outside of our Troop, with signed blue cards, asking one of our adults to sign up to do "X" MB and do it over again because the Counselor didn't cover everything. We have guys who brag that they don't count basketry and leatherwork among their list of MBs, having opted for tougher ones. Another long post. I'm sorry. But I am passionalte about this. Mark

It seems to me that there has to be some allowance for flags on uniforms being representations of flags, or some other such exemption. If a fottball player has a flag sewn on his uniform, he best not be tackled, or it will likely touch the ground. Obviously, that is not how we should be treating an American Flag. I guess the same could be said for a Scout playing Capture the Flag or other active games in uniform, too though. Mark

Purchasing Manger for a company that makes Diamond and Superabrasive grinding wheels and cutting tools. I have a job most women would envy... I buy easily 100,000 carats of diamonds every day! I also teach Supply Chain Management through APICS. In the past, I have been in sales, worked in a shop, sold men's clothing at a retail store, and managed a division for a fastener distributor. It's really cool to see the variety of professions represented here. I also have to say, knowing some of the backround probably helps understand frames of reference. This is a great thread! Mark

We in our little Troop don't THINK we had that "better than thou" attitude when working with ARC. Matter of fact, we know that the things we are trying to use them for they do much better than BSA. I hope we didn't come off as having an attitude on our end. If there is a negative attitude on the part of the BSA, it comes from higher up than we are. And I can't understand why BSA would have a problem. For 80% of those who need first aid training, the BSA info is probably sufficient. But it would be foolish if the BSA thought that what it teaches in 1st Aid MB is everything there is to know about 1st aid, especially for some of the situations more active (ie - high venture) Troops find themselves. Mark

Bob's post prompts me to clarify my original post. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Red Cross and all of its missions. I am glad the BSA and the ARC are trying to develop a working partnership. I think it will be a big benefit to the BSA, and hopefully just as beneficial to ARC. It is just that so far, in our attempt to work with our local chapter, ARC hasn't been very cooperative. We acknowledge that on the Troop level (which is the level we are dealing with them), we can't bring much to them except numbers of new participants, and for various reasons, those have been in the 6 - 10 range. But we are trying, and with two specific exceptions, we have been getting little reciprical consideration. I hope this changes as the relationship is defined and evolves. But so far, or experience has been very one sided. Mark

I believe that most requirements for Merit Badges are intended for the Scout to learn something. The act of learning would lead one to believe that it would be learned and retained for longer than the short period of time between ingestion and testing. A Scout who can't remember anything about what he learned in a merit badge probably wasn't held to a high standard. I don't think that this is the case here though. Let's face it: If we don't practice what we learn, we often forget it (quick - If A=B and B=C, then...?). Many MBs are, and should be, taken to expose a Scout to new activities. Once exposed, the boy might not be interested in pursuing further. If he doesn't go further, he is likely to forget much of what he learned. If this is the case, it's awfully hard on a guy to ask hime to remember everything he learned. Should he remember something? Yes, probably, especially if he has enough interest in the topic to want to pursue a sister badge (Fly fishing). But to retest him and then declare that he should have his badge revoked is too harsh. If a trend exists, where all the students of a specific MB Counselor exibit the same level of incompetence across the board, I'd want to speak to the MB Counselor. If one particular boy seems to show signs of never learning anything, without some other explaination (learning disabilty, etc.), maybe the boy is only trying to fill his sash. But in this case, it sounds to me like a kid had fun doing a badge that, in the scheme of things (Scouts and Life), isn't life altering. He probably got a little nervous when put on the spot, and didn't respond well. Not quite serious enough to want to revoke a Merit Badge, is it? I do agree with one thing though. I think you were wise to suggest he study up before the next session. It's a shame he didn't see your wisdom. Hopefully he'll understand next time. Mark

jtburgess, We dealt with this issue going to Canada this past summer. We had permission slips, permission to treat, birth certificates, and parental releases to travel to Canada signed by both parents for every Scout. Had it all in a binder alphabetized for easy reference for the Canadian Customs folks. We were feeling pretty good about our preparation until we went through the gates. The first car through had the binder, and all of our cars (9 I think) lined up behind it. The SM handed the binder over to the agent, who proceeeded to berate the SM, and every driver after that, about how difficult we made her job because we hadn't separated this paperwork and distributed to each car. Once you get together everything you think you'll need, take my advice and pass it out to the specific cars. It'll save you a lot of grief. Mark

We're Freedom the last or 2nd last week of the season (which ever week contains a new moon). I've enjoyed my stays there although this will be the first time in the last 7 years I won't be going. My dad was from the general area (Maxwell, went to Brownsville H.S.). He used to tell me about driving a beer truck when he was 13 up and down that hill. Except for the rifle program at Freedom, I've always felt pretty good about the MB program. Youth teach and test all classes, though at the range and in the water, there is VERY close supervision by the adults. My probelm with the rifle range instructor is that his safety program leaves much to be desired. I suspect my probelm is that we're a suburban troop, and he is a country guy, where firearms are kind of second nature, and doesn't figure guys in PA need a lot of detailed safety instruction. But after my first year there, we won't permit our guys near the range. All in all, though, a great camp on a great piece of property. Mark

I am not that active in the outdoor program of our Troop, but we do a lot of backpacking, kayaking, and repelling. Out SM and a couple of ASMs are trying to hook themselves into this exact training, as they have heard exactly what you describe: That these are tremendously valuable for high venture activities. They think they have found a course running in Columbus, Ohio early in the summer. I don't know the details, but if anyone would like me to get more info for you, I'll ask our SM. As far a ARC training and Scouts go, we have found some reservation on the part of the ARC when it comes to working directly with Scout units on training (at least kayaking). They seem to have a perception that we want things done for us or our way, and they have developed a program that isn't very flexible (their observation, not ours). When we finally worked it out to do whitewater training for first four adults, then seven of our boys, both groups came to understand the other better. But there certainly was an initial trepidation on the part of ARC regarding BSA. Good Luck! Mark

Sorry for the typos. I try to proof read my submissions before I post, but I pushed the button too early. Ed, I am guessing from your location our Troops attend the same summer camp (at least every other year - we go to Canada in even years). If you go to Heritage, we are in the same boat as far as this goes. Any opinions? Mark

sctldr, What did you learn when you checked out the info about camp merit badges? I am of the understanding that qualaified MB Counselors train youth staff to teach and test the skilss required, and upon the youth staff attesting to the counselor that a candidate sucessfully completed the requirement, the actual MB counselor signs the blue card. Although I am certian in practice this process doesn't happen this formally, I take it on faith that it happens, and is permitted. Do I need to worry? Mark

A hearty hurray for fboisseau! I couldn't agree more! I don't want to diminish the value that just plan 'ole having fun is, but I've always believed that all of teenage life is about learning and experimenting. A boy doesn't date someone because he will marry her, he dates to practice the skills he will need to be a good husband when it is time. A boy doesn't take on a job because it will be a career, he does it to learn what being in the workforce is like, and what is expected of him (well, and to make money to date the girl, too!). And he doesn't take on too many responsiblities because all of them have to be done. He does it because somewhere along his route to manhood, he has to find out how much he can handle, and how to deal with it when he takes on too much. Most of us grownups know that we often choose to accept, or are force to accept, nore than we can deal with. Somehow, we have to learn to prioritize it. There is no better time to learn than as a teenager, when what's at stake is a soccer game, or a meal at a campout, or being late for a party. Later in life, if these skills aren't learned, the consequences become our business's sucess, or not having money to buy groceries, or coming late to work. I encourage all of our Scouts to get involved in as much as they can. Every experience helps create the man they will be. The practice juggling differnet responsiblities is important, and I think it is suprising how many kids actually handle these stresses well. As I mentioned in another thread, and in support of your point, we make each Scout responsible for being as active as they commit to in advance. At the SM conference and B of R, we ask each boy how active they expect to be while pursuing his next rank. If he is active in sports or band, and they are "in season", he usually tells us that he probably won't be to too many meetings or campouts. As long as he gets to the ones he can, we put no pressure on him (as long as his leadership responsiblities are met or delegated). In the long run, we see this working out well for the Troop and the indivual. What to do with the 2 or 3 remaining Scouts is tough. If they were more experienced, I'd leave them in their own Patrol. But being new, even with a good Guide, I think they are being asked to pay too high a price for the decision of others. I think I'd give them the benefit of association with another established Patrol. When the other guys come back, maybe the guys who were there can get back with them and take over leadership of the Patrol, having gained some experience during the athletes' absence. This doesn't provide the athletes the chance to lead a new Scout Patrol, but I think that is one of the consequences of their choice to be so active in Baseball at the exclusion of Scouts. Good luck to you! Mark

Ed, Although I think a policy like that has some merit, I am not aware of anything like it in our Council, or nationally. I am only guessing, but it might be that the local Council has the right to make such rules. But if it isn't a national rule, and if Councils aren't permitted to make one like it themselves, I hope you point it out to them. Like I said, I think it might be a good idea. However, if it ain't allowed, it ain't allowed. Mark

And you make some great points too. I share your distaste for things such as traveling teams and stacking teams in order to arrange winning. I've actually fought against such things in the past. And I'll agree that competetiveness, when it exists, is largely the responsiblity of the adults. but that is a good thing. It is us who know that it is important to prepare for what will come later in life. I do disagree that kids inherently don't compete. Quite the opposite of your scenerio, most times I have witnessed kids playing a game in which historically score is kept, they DO keep score. I'll agree, they bastardize the rules to some degree to accompodate their ability. But it does matter to them who wins. It is the adults (particularly the "enlightened" adults like teachers and politicians who tend to try to mitigate the competition. And lastly, I agree 100% that it is important that we in Scouting teach the values you enumerate. But what better way to learn them than in the heat of competition? If our youth learn to be honest good sportsmen now, during competition, the likelihood that it will continue into adult life increases. If it taught now but never put to a test, can we be so sure the lesson was learned? Again, I can't prove cause and effect, but I think there has been a momentous decline in our culture's integrity that coincides with the reduction in competetive situations in which we place the youth. As a direct answer to your situation with the regatta, we dealt with a simliar issue concerning Pinewood Derby. It was obvious that not every Scout had the skills to make a competetively fast car. So we created catagories like most creative, best design, fasted looking, most boy made, and I think 3 or 4 others. the intent was not to try to give every boy a prize, but to allow the guy who might not be able to make a fast car try to make a unique car, or one that really just looked fast. We also created a dad's division to try to take dad's interest in building cars and channel most of it away from the boys' efforts. Twocubdad, please don't misunderstand. I don't think everything in the world should be based on who's best. But I truly believe we have lost a lot of our desire to compete, and I think it can be tied to many of the positions I've stated. And I think eventually, if not already, it will have a detrimental effect on our society. Mark

Twocubdad, Although in general I agree with the purpose behind your change of the regatta, I have to take issue with your stance on competitions. I think the world has become LESS competetive for young people, not more, and regretably so, IMHO. School work has become "outcome based". We no longer care how you stack up against other students. All we care about is that you meet a minimum standard. And even then, it's more important that kids "feel good about themselves", and not feel pressure that could hurt their self esteem. We don't count runs in the tee ball. We give everyone who participates a trophy or a ribbon. We want no child to feel as though they aren't as good as any other child. In years gone by, no one looked at competition as a way to make the non winners feel bad. It was a way to point out what the second, and third, and fourth place individuals or teams had to do to get better. I never heard my dad say "you should feel awful! You're not as good as ..." What I heard (assuming I had given my best) was "Well, he did this much better than you. When we get home, do you want to go out in the back yard and practice?" Or Cindy got a better grade than you did on her paper because she used a wider range of sources. Do you want me to help you learn how to use periodicals to write your next paper?" I have no evidence to back up what I am going to say, except to point out the obvious coincidence: thoughout our country's history, our country has been the strongest when its people had a more competetive nature. Nowhere is this more evident than in commerce. If all we were worried about is meeting a minumum standard, no one would make the effort to develop better equipment, be more efficient, or do things like explore farther into space. As our general attitude has evolved from a competive spirit to what it is today, our country has lost some of the aura we have always enjoyed as the best country on earth. War should never be fought in order to make this point, but it is wars like we are fighting now (a competition) that we again show that we are a great country. When we raced the Russians to the moon, the competition raised our technology, our intellect, and our national pride in ways that could never happen if we had just said "it doesn't matter who gets there first". I think we are less competetive than ever, not more, and I think this is sad. I am all for cometitions being fair, but boys learn more from competing than they do from just participating. Besides the obvious of learning to win gracefully and lose with class, competition causes all of us, but particularly youth, to challenge ourselves beyond what we would have accepted as our best if it were not for the competition. I served on my community's board for determining assessment criteria for our schools a few years back. I can remember the debates vividly. A number of teachers wanted to eliminate our distict's use of class ranking, because it ran the risk of bruising children's egos. They also felt that the competition to improve class rank led to cheating. As much as I disagreed, the aurguements the teachers made were well reasoned and seemed valid. The measure was adopted, and class rankings were eliminated for all incoming freshmen the following year. Four years went by, when one of my neighbors and I were talking about his son trying to get into college. He was having a tough time, because all of the colleges to which he was applying wanted to know how he compared to others in his class. They demanded having his class rank. As you might imagine, most of the college bound students encountered the same problem. The district had to reconstruct all of the rankings. My point is, even if the goal is reasonable, the world just won't allow the discontinuation of competition, and the more we allow youth to avoid it when they are young, the bigger disavantage we create for them later in their lives. You might be able to tell that the issue hits a nerve with me. This is a topic that is very near to me, and I am passionate about it. Don't discontinue competitions, don't avoid them. Make them fair, make sure they are set up so that everyone, winners and losers, get value from them (and I don't mean a participation medal!), but PLEASE give our youth a fighting chance in their adult lives, where competition is the rule. Mark

KS, I do agree that some guys are not motivated by advancement, and that is fine. Once a guy gets to 1st Class, as far as I am concerned he can slack off all he wants, because, as you say, decisions have consequences. But we take the position that until a Scout is 1st Class, we can't count on his skills as being sufficient to take care of himself or others while on most events. And this gets frustrating for the PLs when they have to plan around a 13 - 14 year old Tenderfoot or 2nd Class Scout. We make a big deal out of becoming 1st Class, because we think it really is the most important rank in Scouts. It's one of the reasons why our program also is designed to take 18 - 20 months to get to 1st Class instead of one year. When our guys get their, they KNOW their stuff, because the were taught it, practice it, and teach it to someone else along the way. This takes us longer than a year. I am with you 100% about the value of the Eagle C of H. We just had one Saturday, and the MC was an Eagle Scout from 7 years ago. the new Eagle asked him to MC because it was at HIS Eagle C of H that the new Eagle determined his goal. And I was chatting with the new Eagle and our SM at the reception afterward, when one of our newer Scouts came up to the new Eagle and said that the ceremony made him want to be an Eagle too, and that if he made it, little Joey wanted the new Eagle to MC his C of H. It was a neat circle of life kind of momment. How are things on your side of the world? Everything look like it will stay calm? Thank you for doing what you do. I appreciate it emmensely. Mark

Robert, Welcome! As with the others, I agree that a set percentage is of no value, and most likely is contrary to the spirit of the requirement. However, I will not endorse some people's position (none stated here, but it has been argued in other similiar threads) that all that is required to meet the "active" requirement is registration. If just being registered isn't enough, and having some artificial percentage is too much, than how does one decide whether a boy has been active enough to meet the requirement? In the early ranks, this is easy. They must attend a set number of activities. Very cut and dry. But in the older ranks, how does one define active? In our Troop, we make the boy define what active will mean for his next rank. For some, this means they decide to be at 100% of the meetings and activities. For others, they outline how football, or work, or band will impact their schedule. They then decide how active they can be based on that. We've got a guy who just had his Eagle C of H who was on the Football and Wrestling teams. During those two seasons, he probably came to less than 25% of the meetings, all more than an hour late, and zero campouts. Outside of those two seasons, he was the largest driving force our Troop had. He was at everything. This coversation happens at both the Scoutmaster Conference and the Board of Review for the last rank. We make a note in the Scouts book about his commitment. If his situation changes (new job, etc), he asks the SM to adjust the commitment. This will look as though it isn't fair, that some boys can get away with attending far less than others. And yes, I guess that's correct. But without a set percentage or number requirement, there will be no "fair". So we ask the boy to determine what he thinks is fair. If he says "My job schedules me every Tuesday, so I can't ever make a meeting", we would tell him that he either has to find a new job, find a Troop with a different meeting night, or understand that he won't meet the requirement for being active, and not to expect to advance. But if we refuse to allow Scouts to work around other activities (almost all of which are valuable), we do them a disservice. Good luck to you. Whenever rules aren't specific, someone always wants to create order out of chaos. It's human nature. But we believe that the person to do this is the Scout himself, not an adult, or a committee of adults. Which leads to one other possiblity, and I pose this truly as a question, not a suggestion: Could the PLC create the requirement for a minimum percentage? Mark

kwc57, Thanks again. I used to use one of your points, phrased a little differently, when responsible for recruiting adult leaders. "Many people say they don't have time to volunteer. In my situation, I don't have time NOT to volunteer. If it weren't for Scouting, and summer ball, and karate, I might not make the time to be with my kids. I am awfully busy. Unless I make this time for them, I may not make ANY time for them." I really believe this, too. I love playing golf, watching TV, going to sports events. Until recently, neither of my boys really liked any of my stuff. If I didn't do stuff they wanted to do, I wouldn't be doing anything with them. And you are right: Time flies. My oldest will be off to college in a few months. Already, jobs and girls and sports and band and Scouts keep him out of the house more than he's there. I sure am glad I spent the last 10 years through Scouts with him. Mark

We place absolutely no restrictions on a new Scout eaning Merit Badges during summer camp, although we sit down with every boy in the Troop to discuss their goals for the week, and new Scouts are encouraged strongly to spend time at the "trail to 1st Class" station. During other parts of the year, when we give a new boy a blue card, we try to get him to agree to do one rank requirement for every MB requirement he does. Everyone agrees, no one really checks, and I'm sure that if someone did check, the ratio isn't 1 to 1. But the boys know that the bigger effort must be placed on rank advancement. If they have an interest in something else, I sure wouldn't want to stifle that. But we had one boy who flew under the radar for more than two years as a Tenderfoot, with enough MBs to easily be Star and almost Life. This was my fault. But as soon as we started coaxing him to work on rank, he quit. I think it is detrimental for a new Scout to put the majority of his energy into MBs. summer camp, and special subjects excluded, we try to have guys work on rank advancement either first, or at the same time, as Merit Badges. Mark

KWC57, That's an awfully nice thing to say. Thank you. But I must confess to doing it more for selfish reasons. I am, and always have been, in this for my sons first. I'd love to be able to brag about having a higher level of commitment, but I really do everything I do for my two guys. I love that other boys have benefitted from my involvement, if that is the case. And, in the next few years, my 14 year old will be out of the program, and I'll be faced with the decision about sticking around, which I suspect I'll do. But more than anything else, I wanted my sons to have the best chance of succeeding if that's what they chose to do. My ideals aren't as lofty as I may have made them sound. We also met on the same night as the pack meeting. It made it easier for families to plan their schedules, therefore more guys made the Den meetings (at least that's what I think). I also used the two times a year that we had five Tuesdays in a month to declare "free day", where the Den voted on what they wanted to do. We went to Pizza Hut, Putt Putt, we did model rockets, and twice the boys decided to not have a meeting. The other thing I did was to have a minimum 10 minute period in the meeting that was outside. Even during the winter, the boys did a lot better having a chance to blow off steam. One more thing that I did (man I forgot about this until this thread got me thinking!) was to eliminate snacks after our last Bear meeting. I explained it as a rite of passage to being more mature, that only the little kids needed snacks, and we weren't little kids anymore. I was afraid of doing this, because I used the snacks to control behavior. But when I explained that as older guys now, they were responsible for their own behavior, including deciding how to punish bad behavior, my guys actually improved. this was my first accidental understanding of the value of boy run. Flboisseau, I think you and I are on the same page. If a boy learned a skill that is applicable to the Scout program, whether he learned it in or out of Scouts, he should be given credit for it. But it is up to the person who is signing his book to be comfortable that he learned the skill or did the task. In Webelos, this usually is the Den Leader. It seems to me that the only way for the DL to be fair to the boy is to see the work. I agree 100%. Mark

When I was a Webelos Den Leader, the first thing I did was to map out what Activity pins we would be doing as a Den. I intentially only planned to cover 16 of them, with the hope that the boys would use the others to get a feel for what doing some of the requirements on their own would be like. I also noted which requirements we were going to do at the meetings. This left a number of requirements to be done on their own, also. I identified which requirements parents could (and even some they SHOULD) sign off, but told them that the rest had to signed off by the Assistant DL or me. I gave credit for school work or other work done outside the Den, but I had to see evidence. If a boy missed a meeting (almost never happened), he knew what requirement(s) had been covered, and worked to make it up. The end result? 7 of 8 Webelos earned all 21 pins, 7 of 8 crossed to Boy Scouts, 5 of 7 made 1st Class, 4 of 7 stayed in Boy Scouts for at least three years, and 2 of them are Eagle Scouts. And one other thing - more than once, when the guys said they were doing something at School that should count, and I told them I would give them credit, they returned the next week saying that what was done at school wasn't enough to meet the requirement. We then spent some time going over stuff again, in more detail. the point is that it was a bunch of 10 and 11 years olds that policed themselves about the rigors of the requirements. I had a great bunch of guys, who are all now 18 and a bunch of fantastic young men. Their parents did a terrific job raising them, and it was my priveledge to have been associated with them. Even though I knew they were almost all going on to Boy Scouts, and to the Troop I would be with, the essence of "bittersweet" could have been seen in my mind the day they crossed. One of the saddest happy days of my life (or would that be happiest sad days?). My advice? Set up standards that must be met to accept out of Den work, and then accept it happily. It will be a nice springboard into Boy Scouts. Also, consider allowing your Den Chief (if you're lucky enough to have one, and he is good) to be allowed to sign requirements, too. Just one more way to help grease the skids into Boy Scouts. If I can offer one more piece of advice - the best thing you can do to ease the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts is to maintain a Den meeting schedule over the summer. We changed from every week to every other week, we discontinued dues, and we didn't require a uniform, but we met all the way through summer between 1st and 2nd year Webelos. The biggest compliment I got from the Scoutmaster after a few months of my guys being in Boy Scouts was that every other group of guys that ever crossed to his Troop had no understanding that Boy Scouts was a 12 month a year activity, and that, at least in our area, the summer is even more busy, not a time to take three months off. I've mentioned it before, but I truly believe that after boring meetings, the biggest reason boys drop out of Boy Scouts is the sudden change from an eight month a year to a 12 month a year program. Anything that can be done to reduce this shock would be welcome. Good luck!! Mark