mk9750

Actually, I meet all out of Troop boys at McDonald's or other resturaunts. But except in these two cases, there was always either a buddy, or I've brought along my son. Always figured him listening in would help him latter when he worked on the same badge. But after a while, that reasoning didn't convince him to keep coming. Mark

On two occasions, while couseling MBs for boys outside my Troop, they explained that they did not have a buddy who could meet me during times that were convenient for both of us. I have agreed to meet them in McDonald's in order to be in at least public view. Does anyone have an opinion on this? I've always felt that I met the spirit of the law, but haven't been quite so comfortable that I met the letter. Mark

There was an article in Scouter Magazine back in @ 1996 or 1997, I think, written by a parent who talked about her son having joined a gang. She went on to talk about all of the things she saw her son doing now - Sleeping out of the house without his parents, walking vast distances to find his fun, etc. At the end (as if anyone reading Scouter Magazine couldn't have figured out by the third paragraph), she said the gang her son had joined was the Boy Scouts. If I could find that article, I'd show it to your parents. It was very powerful. I have actually been searching for a reprint of this article for a couple of months now. Apparently, the box with some of my back issues of favorite magazines didn't do well in a recent move (yeah, all of my Golf Digest magazines are missing, too!) If you happen to know how I can get a reprint of this article, I'd appreciate it. Scouter's searchable website doesn't go back far enough to include this article. Good luck. Every sucess you have doing these sales pitches strengthens our society at many, many levels. Mark

Paul, I have one Short Sleeve Shirt and at least one pair of pants that are 44 waist. They are hemmed at 30 - 31", but I think I hemmed them with a lot of extra material. I'll check it out, and if they can be made long enough, I'll give them to you. I'll call you tomorrow. Mark

I can only offer help from my perspective in my little corner of the world, but... The District Advancement Chairman is at every one of our Eagle BORS. He represents the District, and I assume, the Council. If you are beng asked to fulfill that role, here is what I have seen him do, and would recomend it highly. First, he is the moderator of the Review. He takes responsiblity for the introductions, if someone else isn't more appropriate to do so. He then excuses the candidate and goes over the purpose for the BOR and the philopsophy. He explains that we are there not to retest but to verify completion. He compares it to an ISO quality audit, in that we are looking for evidence of satisfactory completetion, not evidence of failure. I've always taken this to mean, for example, that one instance of UN- Scoutlike behavior doesn't negate seven years worth of Scoutlike behavior. He brings the Scout back into the room, and, depending on the comfort level and experience of the others who are on the Board, he asks very few questions, or almost all of the questions. Usually, he askes the first few, and then those who are new get the feel and start jumping in on their own. Once he gets the sense that all of the members are finished, he excuses the candidtate again, explains to the members the rules about the vote being unanamous, and the Scout's appeals options if the bord voted no, and then conducts the vote. If yes, he calls the Scout back in. He has begun allowing another member of the Board, usually someone with a Troop connection, to be the first to congratulate the new Eagle Scout. He usually has a list of about 20 - 25 canned questions, but if the rest of the people on the Board start asking questions actively, most of his questions get asked eventually. Congratulations on being asked to serve in this capacity. I think you will get a really lift out of process. Mark

Dan, Thanks for the kind words. I've always known I did the right thing, because I also once made the wrong decision in a similiar instance, and vowed to never do it again. I am not an Eagle Scout (sure wish I were!). But I take very seriously what I feel is my responsiblity as an Advancement Chair and a constant BOR member - To protect the reputation of Eagle Scouts. I made a mistake once. A boy who definitely did not live up to the Ideals of Scouting got my vote at a BOR. I won't EVER do that again. We've had other boys get to 17 or so without any real evidence that making Eagle is important to them. I work them over pretty good trying to get them to understand the oppurtunity they will miss if they don't try. But in the end, it is each boy that must make that call for himself, and he has to look at the mirror regardless of the call he makes. I'll tell a quick story that kind of ties in here. For years and years now, my son has wanted to do two things: Teach Music, and go to school at The Ohio State University, where not only would he be in the marching band, but eventually, dot the "I" in Script Ohio. Throughout his Junior high and early high school years, he put a very minimal amount of effort into school. He rarely got Ds or Fs, but he also rarely got As or Bs. I kept trying to tell him he needed to put more effort in. My line always used to be that if he had a 4.0 GPA, he could do anything - Doctor, Lawyer, Music Teacher, Bus Driver or Garbage Man. But with a 2.0 GPA, He won't have nearly all of tose choices available. He never got serious until the middle of his Junior year. Started getting 3.0s and even got as high as a 3.65. But, too little too late. Ohio State has gotten very selective and competetive, and he was not accepted. He can prove himself at a Community College for a year and transfer, which is what he'll do. But, the band only allows four year tuba players to dot the "I". Because he'll never be a four year tuba player in the band, he will never dot the "I". My point is that even as young as the boys with whom we work are, they are making choices as teenagers that will effect their lives forever. Some are bigger than dotting the "I". But once the choice has been made, often the results are set in stone, as is the case when a boy procrastinates working on Eagle. But, that is what youth is for - To make mistakes that even though they may have a lasting effect, won't do real damage. My son won't suffer for his lack of effort except for the memory that he would have had. For those who have any kind of influence over the boys in their Troop: Please, PLEASE help your boys to understand the results of their procrastination if they are not moving forward. But if they don't make the decision to do it on their own, please don't feel bad. It is the young man who made the decision to sacrifice an honor that will last a lifetime. Mark

Ed, I am so sorry for you and the family of the young man, both immediate and extended, including his Scouting family. This will be at least one voiced raised in prayer. Mark

I'm betting that although we all know you broke the letter of the law for YP, you won't get one person criticizing you. Even without the great result, if the intent of Youth Protection is to protect youth, comparatively, which is worse: Have a Scout in your car alone, or leave a Scout on his own at a camp with no way to get home? You did fine. The way you treated the boy I think is the way we all would like to believe we would. Congratulations! Mark

DSteele, Thanks for the ideas. They are all certainly reasonable things to do if we really do WANT to stay local for summer camp. Gary is a FANTASTIC person and a great Scout Executive. We are very lucky to have him (although he was in charge when our Service Center moved from 4 minutes away from my home to over an hour away - LOL). You can tell him I said that, too. He has his hands full, like probably most Executives do, trying to just make things work finacially. Somehow, he and his staff get it done. I'd bet, although it is only a guess, that they have a plan to work on improving the things they can in the order that the resources allow. The camp where our summer camp is held is a terrific place for camping, but age and lack of upkeep over the last 25 years have made it not very hospitable for summer camp. The caretaker now, though, is an unbelievably energetic guy who has begun to turn the facilities around. If somehow they can get an adequate aquatics area again (how's that for illiteration?), the facilties will be acceptable (not as good as where we go, but acceptable). Your idea about inspecting the camp is something we tried to put together before, but for some reason I've forgotten, it fell through. We were scheduled to have the SM and three older Scouts spend the day at camp. I think I will suggest that again. I don't think we had planned on offering our opinions about what they needed to do to meet our expectations, but possibly if we were able to have a candid discussion about it, we might be able to offer some insight. I'd really like to try. Right now, we alternate between Canada and PA. We really like both, and I suspect we don't want to give either up completely. But if we could find a way to maybe put our own camp in the rota, I really think it would do a lot of good. Mark

DSteele, Your post was very informative. Thanks. It generates a question, though. You were pretty passionate about units attending their own council's summer camp. In theory, I agree 100%. Our Council's summer camp, however, is bad, bordering on horrendous. Although it has improved somewhat over the last few years, we hear, were it started from back a few years ago would make you sick. First, there were not enough adult staff to monitor what the youth staff did. Most of the week, our adult leaders spent trying to keep the youth staff in line. The program areas were limited, poorly run, and run by staff that knew less about the subject than 2/3 of our Scouts. Meals (which were not optional, BTW {that means "by the way", BTW}) can best be described as unedible. Two of our boys complained of chunky milk. It was like this three straight years before we decided to look at other councils. And to top it all off, our council's summer camp is @ 15% more expensive than going out of council. This has caused us to be in a quandry: We know that without the support of local units, the summer camp program will find it difficult to improve. We also feel strongly that we owe our Scouts the best summer camp experience they can have. How do we resolve this? We very much would like to see our council's program improve. We've gotten Scouts to agree to serve on staff, although the council woldn't allow them to take a week off to attend summercamp with us. I guess I can't blame them for that, because we still weren't staying local. But because they refused, none of our Scouts would serve. None of our adults can take the required number of weeks off. We tried to offer to share jobs, but again, they wanted all or nothing. Over the last years, we have seen, from asking others that do go, that the program has gone from a 1 on a scale from 1 - 10 to about a 3 1/2. What we get now going out of council is an 8 or 9. Every year, we ask the Annual Planning Committee to consider staying locally. To a boy, they refuse. Years ago, there were people in youth leadership positions that had the chunky milk. Now, the people who make these decisions remember the stories. In a few more years, maybe that memory will fade. But until then, the boys say no, and we think we have a valid reason for not overridding their decision. Any suggestions? Mark

Great Question! I struggle all the time worrying about the same thing. We give awards out immediately after earning them, except things earned at or immediately following summer camp, which we hold till the C of H in the fall, in late August (and we also have one in Feb.). We give the boy any badges immediately, then give the cards for the badge in a more formal ceremony. For 1st Class, we do a big ceremony giving each boy a fancy embroidered Troop neckercheif to replace the generic one we gave him when he crossed. For Star and Life, we have an Honor Banner that each Scout (along with his parents) reveal his name added under the appropriate column for rank. This honor banner is one of the few things that has lasted for the entire charter of our Troop. It is a felt material, with cut out felt letters glued on, and has every Star, Life, and Eagle Scout our Troop has had since 1958. We also provide the Scout with a mother's pin for the ranks of Star and Life (and Eagle too)that the boys present their moms. Each C of H is planned and MC'd by the ASPL. Because these often are diferent guys, the tone changes often. Sometimes these are pretty serious and solemn. Others are basically a roast, usually of the SM and / or some of the ASMs. One thing I have tried to get the planners to include, but they just plain refuse, is to include a couple of skits (I am the adult mentor for these, as MCing a Court of Honor used to be a requirment for Communications MB, which I counsel) . These guys just don't like doing skits in front of families. I sure wish they would change their thinking about it. It's the thing I enjoy most about Courts of Honor! Mark

Laura, I can't be certain if they do rafting training specifically, but the American Red Cross does a number of classes for basic River and Whitewater Kayaking. the Basic River class was designed for canoes and kayaks. My sons went through 5 - 1 hour classes in a pool, then Basic River, which was a full weekend, then White Water I, which was another full weekend. There is a White Water II available, but we are undecided if we want to take it or ask an ARC instructor to accompany us on a trip of our own. But I am certain that if you took at least part of what we did, it would both qualify you officially, and perhaps even give you enough knowledge and skill to do this trip both safely and enjoyably. From experience in our Troop, I will strongly suggest you not underestimate the value of training. As we started accumulating kayaks, Our SM, an ASM, and his son took three kayaks out on a local river just to play around and get a feel for the boats. The ASM got forced against a bridge abuttment up side down, and without any training on how to right himself, and no training for either of the other two on how to effect a rescue, the ASM feels he was within 30 seconds to a minute of dying. We now have probably overdone our training, but it has made our program more fun knowing that everyone who partakes has the skill to handle problems that anyone in the group might find themselves. Good luck on your trip! Mark

Cord, Welcome to the forum! Sorry your first question seemed to have gotten so little response, but I think most of us would have told you the same thing. However, it seems what you really are looking for is a list of activities other Troops do. I'll offer up ours: *Winter Klondike in January *Cabin Campout where Webelos are invited in Feb. the middle age Scouts mentor the youngest Scouts to teach basic skills to the Webelos. they then run a competetive event in the afternoon (except woods tools). We have a tremendous diner and then a Court of Honor in the evening, to which we invite all the families to come. We make a big deal out of awarding prizes to the Webelos "Patrols". *Started basic kayaking skills training in local college pool in Feb. *Pioneering Campout in March *Continued kayaking sessions in pool in March *Seperate Patrol events, including generic campout out, a hiking campout to cover 2nd class 5 mile hike, and the older guys went to the outdoors show, then just hung out together overnight in April. *Basic River Kayaking in conjuction with the American Red Cross in April. *New Scout Campout, where middle and young Scouts mentor the newly crossed new Scouts in camping skills in May. *White Water I kayaking weekend in conjuction with the ARC in May. *Troop Junior Leader Training in June. *Council JLT in June, with usually 2 - 3 of our guys on staff, and 5 - 8 in attendence. *Hike between 60 and 115 miles on the Appalacian Trial for @ 12 guys. *Rest of guys do a campout to teach first aid skills in June. *Help with Church Festival in July. *Summer camp in PA (odd years) or Canada (even years) in late July or early August *Rifle campout out in month we don't do the summer camp. Campout is preceeded by three 1:45 hour safety classes, then campout is designed to allow all to shoot. Some pursue Rifle MB. *Troop rafting trip, with experienced kayakers escorting family and others in raft down river in Sept. *Rock Climbing and rapelling campout over 4 day weekend in Oct. This is proceeded by 3 weeks of meetings to teach skills. *No set activity is November. Usually used by patrols to plan their own event. *Cabin campout with emphisis on orienteering in Dec. *Sevice project to VA Hospital in Dec. In addition, each of our three patrols plan campouts on their own a couple of time a year, and often get together as a group to do tuff like bowling, ball games, etc. During our planning meeting, the boys review each activity from last year and make sure it still fits with our goals. We've done the same basic schedule for a few years now. Mark

AK Eagle, Your note about playing reminded me of one of the best survival hints I ever was told: ALWAYS carry a deck of cards. If ever in a survival situation, play solitaire. Because eventually, someone will come by to tell you to play the red six on the black seven. well, OK, it's not VALID, but it's funny, isn't it? Mark

Man 'O Steele, Sounds to me like you've probably covered the bases. But your answer leads to a question of my own. Perhaps a tax attorney or CPA may want to try this one: Every year, I take a deduction for my unreimbursed expenses for Scouting, like mileage, copies I make, etc. I am pretty certain I could take these deductions if the Troop were a formal non profit. But in that they are not, am I doing anything shady? If anyone out there is the IRS, please ignore this post. Mark

OneHour, Ditto those who suggested the Field Book, particularly the older ones. I have found the new edition of the Handbook to have cut out a lot of detail on subjects like this, with the hope (I believe) that boys would turn to the Field book. The current edition is miles more valuable for what you are seeking than is the Hand Book, and I have been told by others who have read older editions of the Field Book that much of the new editions have been watered down progresiveley over the years. I suspect that the older a Field Book you get, however, the more you run the risk of getting away from Leave No Trace. Be careful to identify when old ideas are in conflict with new philosophy. Mark

Ed, I'm sorry, I might be mixing up scenerios here. I thought we were discussing a boy who already has Scout Spirit signed off, but then lies at the SM conference. But even in the scenerio you described, I don't think I agree. If the requirement for, say, lighting a light weight stove was signed off, and then in a SM conference, I (if I were a SM) found out that the Scout never met this requirment satisfactorily, but was passed on by someone who was just trying to ge tthe boy out of his hair, I don' think I would "erase" the initials. Assuming all else is in order, I would allow the process to continue, I would make very sure that the Scout got the benefit of learning the skill very soon after, and I would be discussing with the person who signed it off improperly. I might go so far as taking away that priveledge (If I were the SM, I would do this in consultation with the Advancement Chair). Don't get me wrong. I have read your posts for about a year now, and I feel I am just as much a stickler for making boys meet the requirements as are you. But once someone who was given the responsiblity to sign a boy off signs a boy off, from my perspective, it's done. If I find out that expected standards were not met, I can assure you that corrective action will be taken. But I just don't think undoing what has been done is in the best interest of anyone. I also have one other question. If I understood correctly, you don't let Scouts sign off advancements (maybe you meant they can't sign off Scout Spirit). If they can't sign off advancements, who does? If you are trying to do this on your own, that sure seems like it would be hard. I can't imagine one person trying to test all of the requirments for all of the boys in our Troop of @ 40 right now. Mark

Let my try to answer in order: Ed, If I understood your answer, it sounds like you are saying that you would symbolically erase the initials of the person who signed off the requirement. If I understand you, I don't think I agree. If your answer had said that the boy wouldn't earn his NEXT rank until he proved to you he lived up to the Scout Oath and Law, I like that. It gives him the oppurtunity to discuss with you his lapse, and a reason to adjust his behavior in the future. But if I were the Advancement Chair and a SM ignored the signature of someone allowed to sign off a requirement, I'd have a real problem. Negating someone else's signature (assuming that person is authorized to sign) might be even worse than adding or subtracting requirments. Ron, In our Troop, all Scouts 1st Class and up can sign basic requirements. Some, Like the Drug and Achohol requirment, we require either the teacher of the program or the Scout's parents to sign. the req't for meeting with an elected official we ask that the elected official sign. Only the SM and ASMs can sign Scout Spirit and SM conference. Our SM does ALL Scout and Tenderfoot conferences. Then usually rank SM conferences are done by the SM or the ASM assigned to the Patrol. The SM and usually an ASM do Eagle conferences. Someone mentioned the SM conference being valuable for quality control, and I agree. However we would not hold it against the Scout trying to advance. If it was signed, it was signed. We would deal with it directly with the tester remedially. We'ed also be very quick to get the boy who "benefitted" from the lax testing process to teach the next round of that skill. It's the best way we know to make a kid learn a skill - ask him to teach it. Twocub, I readily admit to walking a very fine line with my stance, but I don't believe I am adding a requirment by saying I won't work with a boy unless he meets this criteria. I have offered anyone who I have said no to the chance to work with other Counselors. They have all said no and come back to me when they do have a significant income. But I would never say no to, or even discourage, a Scout doing this badge with someone else. What is a significant income? That's not an easy answer. I live in a very upper middle class area, and I would guess that most of the family incomes in our Troop exceed $75,000.00. What is significant to a boy from a family like this is way more than $2.00 / week. If I had a boy come to me from a very impoverished area, $2.00 - $5.00 / week might be very significant to him, and I would work with him. I've not had that happen yet. The least I have agreed to work with was $20.00 / week. the most I can recall saing no to was $30.00 / week. This boy got $30.00 week allowance with no effort on his part. Although even I questioned whether I was being fair with him, his dad thanked me for giving him the impetus to get a job, and the Scout was very kind in his words about me at his Eagle C of H when he talked about this. Bob, I like your solution. As I thought about the question myself, this is kind of where I was leaning. Though the SM conference isn't the gatekeeper, the BOR is. As I understand, the SM has a right, and a responsiblity, to advise the Board of any special circumstances that existed during a Scout's trail to his next rank. The only thing I might add is for the SM to ask the boy if, under the circumstances, knowing that he lied, and therefore didn't live up to his responsibilty as a Scout, if he thought that seeking a BOR immediately was in his best interest. I think I would suggest that maybe he find a way to show some evidence of his desire to live up to the Oath and Law before he seek the BOR. If he didn't feel it was in his best interest to wait, at that point I'd probably remind him of my responsibility to discuss the incident with the BOR. Mark

Twocub, It was me who made the statement about Personal Management MB. I hope I was clear then and that you just misunderstood, but if it was poor composition that created a misunderstanding, let me try again. As a MB Counselor, I would not begin to work on that MB with a boy who did not have some significant source of income, as I believe the intent of the lesson the BSA intends a Scout to get from the requirement is not met by a Scout budgeting $2.00 per week. I would not begin to work on the badge with a Scout if he intended to plan a budget with such a small amount. Or, I would only start with him if he understood in advance that I would not sign that requirement under those circumstances. As an advancement chair though, were a boy come to me looking to do this MB with me, and I said I would not do it, after I explained why, I would (and have) offered him a list of other MB Counselors he could contact. No one in our Troop has ever done that, and the only boy outside the Troop that did was within a month of his 18th BD, which didn't allow him time to complete the requirement properly anyway. And just as a footnote, I have had one 13 year old complete this MB with me. He caddied an entire summer and most of the fall. At the beginning of the process, I asked him what he intended to do with his money. He couldn't wait to buy candy and video games. By planning his income and expenditures, and setting up goals and a pay yourself first program, he has prvided himself with a solid finacial foundation (both intellectually and $$$$). I am POSITIVE that what he reconginzes as a tremendous value to him by doing this MB would not be so easy for him to see if he was trying to budget $2.00 / week. Ed, You run things in your Troop much as we do in ours. Our SM always provides an oppurtunity for a SM Conference after all of the "hard" requirements are finished. I don't think anyone has ever told our Scouts it has to be like this, but the order they are in the book makes it easy for a Scout to assume it, and we do nothing to discourage it. But the danger that exists in doing things in this order is what I think you are talking about here. It would be very easy, I think, to be a SM and believe that because the conference is happening at the end of the advancement process, that the SM is a gatekeeper, protecting from the possiblity of sending a non-deserving Scout in front of a BOR. And for this reason, SM's often seem to want to retest, and pass / fail boys at the conference. This is not how it is designed to work, I don't think. Only the tester of an individual requirement, and the BOR, can pass or fail a boy. If it is the SM that is testing for a requirement, then he has the authority to pass or fail. But once at a SM conference, that right no longer exists, if all of the other requirements are signed off. Here's a question. What if the SPL or a ASM signed off Scout Spirit? What would you do at the SM conference? And specifically, what would you do if, during the SM conference, the boy lied to you about why he wasn't at an event? I'm afraid my tone suggests that I am being sarcastic, but I'm not. If I were a SM, I'd really have a tough time with that. My understanding is that once passed, the Scout has sucessfully complete that requirement, so as a SM, I couldn't take it away. I also understand that if the conference happens, it is not pass / fail, it is done or not done. I would really struggle with this one. Luckily, I'm a lowly Advancement Chair, so I don't have to ever be in that situation. But what would you do? I suspect that this thread could live on for quite a while longer. Mark

How's this for a possoble guideline: If the Patrol, or the Troop via the PLC, voted to attend, count it. If the boy or his family decided on their own to go, praise him for the effort, but don't count it. Welcome! Always glad to have another "one hour a week" warrior! Mark

Ron, Ditto Bob. Situations are almost never as black and white as can be described in a few sentences on a forum, but for the sake of discussion, let's assume all of the facts you have to work with are the whole story. I'd say that the likelihood of this boy making Eagle are pretty slim. First, he'd have to convince the SM and BOR that he met his established goals for activity and leadership. Sounds like that's not likely right off the top. so he would most likely need to spend some additional time as a Star to meet that (or those) requirement(s). But let's say he does satisfy everyone and earns Life immediately (maybe he completed the tenure and leadership requirment before becoming inactive). If he has developed the habit of skipping meetings and activities for no apparent or valid reason, he isn't likely to get back on track with 6 days left to spare. But, just to reinforce my previous post, let's throw into the mix that he has six months, but he knows about a month remains in a sports season that precludes him from being at meetings and events. If I were the SM (and I am not one), my conversation with him at his SM conference for Life would inlcude a discussion about how he could fulfill 6 months worth of leadership and attendence in the five months he would have left once he can start back to Scouts. There are many ways (in my mind) that he could do this. The most likely is to assume a Position of Responsiblity for the five months, and do an additional SM assigned leadership project. As far as the attendence goes, if I believed that the absences he plans to have are legit, and he attends everything he can once he is able, I would allow him to set that as an acceptable goal. I might do the same if it were 2 months and 4 months. I'd probably have a hard time if it were 3 months and 3 months. Almost definately wouldn't allow it if it were 4 months away and 2 months active. But what I wouldn't do is predetermine what is acceptable. Each Scout's situation is different. If these things aren't discussed and a consesus betweeen the boy and his SM isn't reached, I'd think the boy was cheated. These aren't easy situations. As my dad said either twice or 4 billion times, "if it was easy, everyone would do it". What I find hardest sometimes is treating boys like men. Would I want to take a guy like this and hold him up by his ears and make him understand how his actions and inactions have and will continue to effect him negetively? Oh man, for sure. But I see my job, and that of the SM, to guide these guys to there own good decision, not make it for him. I've had to bite my tongue plenty of times while watching guys make bad choices. Luckily, none have been life altering. but you should see the teeth marks on my lingual muscle. Mark

I think it was dsteele who pointed out that the joining requirements are minimums, not maximums. As such, it seems to me that the goo dof the boy is the overriding factor. If he is just joining Scouts, I would look to place him where is is most comfortable, and all feel he has the best chance of success. If he were in a Webelos den and everyone was crossing, I'd cross him a the same time, rather than hold him back. IMHO. Mark

Ron, In rereading my posts, I now see that an ommission could be causing you not to see what seems obvious to me. Let me add it here. If during a SM conference, the Scout sets a goal of making his next rank in six months, but says he won't be at hardly any of the meetings or events during that six months, the SM would steer him toward changing his goals (OK, he'd actually say that wouldn't fly, and make him change his goals). In this case, for instance, if there is legitimate reasons why the Scout won't be able to attend for six months like football, the SM would probably get the Scout to set his goal at more like 10 months or a year. There's hardly no way that a boy who doesn't come to meetings and go on outings during the entire time he works on his next rank would advance in our Troop. But in reality, it wouldn't be the attendence issue that would stop him. It would be his lack of leadership (if he isn't there, it becomes very difficult to lead), and his lack of exposure to the program. I've yet to see a boy ask for a SM conference who even had these questions arise. They know when they have met the requirements. They know when the SM is likely to say the Scout has not been active enough. Our guys just don't even ask until they are pretty certain they are ready. We have one guy who transfered from another Troop that was significantly easier on advancement procedures than are we. He tranfered as a Star 3 years ago. He was one MB away from Life, and needed 2 more months in position of leadership. The SPL at the time asked him to pick up where a Scout who had gone off to college left the web page. He was named a Troop Scribe for taking this position. He did almost nothing. Spent his two months, asked for a SM confernece, and was told he didn't satisfy the requirement for leadership, as he had done nothing in the position. He was quite bummed out. He spoke to his buddy, who had convinced him to join the Troop, who proceeded to explain to the new guy how we operate. He told him that a patch on his sleeve was never going to satisfy the leadership requirement in or Troop. This boy spent the next couple years either being elected or appointed to positions of responsiblity, and then doing very little to follow through. But he knew he didn't meet the requirement, so he never asked for a conference. About 8 months ago, the light must have finally come on. The SM was doing a rapelling training class for adults, and the boy asked if he could take the class, then lead the instruction for the new guys in our Troop who hadn't been through our yearly climbing cylce. He grabbed on to this like a shark grabs onto chum. Busted his butt to do this job as well as it could be done, and came through with flying colors. After about 2 1/2 months of work, culminating in our 4 day rapelling trip, in which every boy he taught had a great time climbing and rapelling safely and correctly, he asked again for his SM conference. He's now about a third of the way through Eagle, and now has an understanding of the requirement for leadership. I know that this example is geared toward the requirement for leadership, but my point is that our guys know when they've met the requirements, and until they think they have, they don't even ask for a conference. But the reason they know is because they set the standard for themself. This guy didn't understand that at first, because this wasn't discussed with him at his conference for Star, because that was done elsewhere. And we learned form this too. Now, every boy that transfers to our Troop has a full blown Scoutmaster Conference and BOR for the rank he has at the time. Obviously, we wouldn't take away what he has earned. But we want him to understand our philosophy before he is ready to be reviewed for his next rank. Mark

Ed, You may be right about HIPPA not applying to Boy Scout Summer Camp, I don't know. But it involves much more than hospitals and doctor's offices. My understanding (and I am neither an attorney nor an HR pro), is that it applies to any medical information which any institution has about a person. It applies to your company and how it treats your medical files and insurance, it covers the insurance company itself, it covers pharmacies, and it covers emergency medical crews. Anyone who has reason to have knowledge of your medical condition is subject to this law. And, having seen the language, they were pretty serious about it when they wrote it. With no valid information to back me up, I'd suppose that sctldr is most likely accurate. If you fill out and sign a medical form, and in some way acknowledge that you understand that it will be used in case it is necessary, but otherwise protected from other uses, the Scout Camp probably meets the requirements of HIPPA. I think stressbaby's question is a good one though. Where we go to summer camp, each Scout is interviewed by a camp staff member with the Scoutmaster present. I am not sure that under HIPPA, either of these people are entitled to know this information. So as sctldr suggests, it may be necesary for an additional section to be filled out and signed in order for these people to be allowed to be given this info. Mark

Ron, In our Troop, we don't use a number or a percentage. The Scout discusses his goals in Scouting, and his other activities, and he outlines a plan for his participation. If he says he won't be at many meetings during football, and then comes to none, we would most likely not hold that against him, nor would we keep close enough track to even officially know it. We also wouldn't require that he make it up, again, because we really don't keep attendence, and wouldn't know what percentage of meetings he's been to. His activity goal (and for that matter, his leadership commitment) are not hard numbers. They are goals for accomplishing something. For a Tenderfoot SM conference, the boy would likely commit himslef to being at all or most of the meetings that deal with skills he needs to earn 2nd Class, and probably all of the campouts. During a SM Conference for 1st Class, the Scout would probably be committing to accepting a Leadership position, and the attendence that naturally goes with that, or teaching skills that he just recently learned. If he gets to most of the meetings that do not require him, not too much of a problem. If he is supposed to run a competition after a skill presentation, and doesn't bother showing up, even if it is just the one meeting he misses, he's going to have to have an air tight explaination for why he didn't come. Commitments for Star, Life, and Eagle usually involve advanced leadership responsiblities, community service (often done outside Troop activities, but still important for the development of young men), and or teaching and mentoring younger guys. Although we have a few formal Troop Guides, we kind of see all our older Scouts as Troop Guides. We certainly need these fellows to be an asset to the Troop, and btween the Scout and the SM, they determine what shape that will take, and develop the framework for attendence around that. I'll admit that using a hard number would be easier for the SM and in turn, us on the BOR, but almost every time we try to set things up so they are easier for the adults, it seems to harm our Troop's program. Mark