mk9750

SM406, Your last phrase, "...I just no longer believe they may possibly be right." leads me to an obvious next question. What will happen to those who don't believe what we believe? (I am assuming we fave the same belief). What becomes of Ghandi? Or the souls who spent their entire lives never having gotten the chance to believe what we believe? Or can being wrong still get one to heaven? Mark

Bob, I thought about deleting the part of my sentence that said "disagree", and leaving only the phrase about "adding to your statement". I left it because I hope that it helps clarify my thought process. And I know that either way, I am not taking issue with you, but with the official reasoning behind the program. But I sincerely believe that there is more to the purpose of the MB program than career and hobby development, whether it is stated or not. I am intimately knowledgable about the requirements for Personal Management, and the text of the MB pamphlet. There is a minor emphasis in the MB on careers in finance. The vast majority of the material relate to life skills, not hobby or career development. Family Life is the same. Heck, 1st Aid is far more about a life skill than it is about a hobby or career. As to the implied arguement that Home Economics (or whatever it would be called if it existed) would not support the Aims and / or Methods of Scouting, I disagree. I challenge anyone to show how knowing how to sew, wash clothes, or cook in a kitchen does not relate to at least Citizenship and Physical, Mental and Emotional Fitness, and I think it can also be shown to relate to Moral Strength and Charecter. It may not be worthy of consideration because there may not be enough interest in it. That is speculation I can't argue against. Trying to would lead to speculation on my part. But one canot argue that there isn't value to the topic, nor can one argue that the topic doesn't support the Aims of Scouting. Mark

If my Home Economics MB (which would include the sewing, laundering and kitchen skills) won't fly, then I'd be in favor of making Cooking required, also, IF it included more kitchen cooking. Right now it is hevily tilted toward outdoor cooking, and that is great. But I've seen more than a couple Scouts who can cook fantastic camp meals but are lost in a kitchen. Bob, sorry, but I disagree with your statement about the MB program. Or maybe I should say I'd like to add to it. Yes, the program is designed to expose boys to interesting topics that could become a hobby (or a career), but that shouldn't exclude the oppurtunity (maybe even the requirement) to explore life skills. I'd agree with you that much of what I suggest, and what others are saying, might better be covered as Cub Scout requirements. But they are not, in my experience (limited, I know, but I'll bet most everyone here would agree that their son did not do the sewing requirment for Wolf Scout). If they don't get it in CS, shouldn't we do what we can to help them in BS (that's Boy Scouts)? And I'd go along with Saltheart's idea to make them rank requirments. Might even accomplish what I think is important better than if it were a MB. Mark

Bob, I'm willing to give you that "to be a good leader, you must be a good follower" is a simplistic, cute line that may not be taught in formal training within BSA. But I think you'll agree that in order to be a good leader, you must (in most cases, not all) have empathy for those whom you lead. And a very valuable way to get empathy for anyone is to have been in their shoes. Take, for example, your example about a fisherman not needing to have been a fish. Maybe that's true, but serious fishermen study fish constantly, trying to understand them. The more they understand, the better they can fish. I'd bet that the most serious of fishermen would love the oppurtunity to "be a fish" for a day or two, to really understand what makes them tick, or more appropriately, what makes them eat fake food with a hook in it. I think you can apply this same logic to most any situation. Do you have to have to have experience in one thing in order to be good at the higher order activity associated with it? No, and plenty of examples prove that. But is there value in it? In almost every case, yes. To get back to the original question, though, I agree 100% with your position. I'd rather see the Patrol(s) stay intact, but if it really is in the best interest of the boys to merge temporarily, I'd hope they decided for themselves to elect a temporary leader. Mark

OGE, "... when you expect excellence you get it, and when you accept mediocrity thats what you will get?" Can I steal that? fotoscout, Congratulations to your son (and you, too!). I think I know what you mean. When I think of all of the techniques MA students learn and memorize, and the near perfectness of the execution, I am also amazed. Mark

ASM514, To recap what I think you'll find in the thread mentioned, the mility has chosen to display the flag on the uniform in a fashion that depicts it flying in the breeze as the soldier moves forward. Because it is placed on the the opposite shoulder from what we are used to, it must be shown "Backward". It is curious to me why they needed to have the flag on the other sleeve, necesitating the reverse view, but that appears to be the reason. It was a new one to me, too. I really doubt the mility, in total, has decided to make some type of political statement by doing this. The tone of your post seems to make that arguement. Bob White reacted to what seems to be an unpatriotic statement. I can see where he read that into your post. I also think he might have over reacted a bit. Mark

I've told this story before, so I'll try to do the short version. At summercamp, my oldest son and 4 of his buddies all took on too many tough MBs. One night, they were all trying to finish their 500 word reports for Env. Sci., and there was a rumor the counselor had a scanner and word processor he was using to count the words. My son held the flashlights while everyone else wrote their reports. When it came time for him to do his, they all pooped out and he never finished. On Sat., he checked the blue cards and his was signed off as complete. On the car ride home, one of his buddies was wondering why he partialed Env. Sci. I could see a serious look coming over my son. When we got back home, he asked to see my requirements book. He said the requirements his buddy didn't get signed off were the ones he thought he didn't do. I asked him if he understood the ramifications of what he was saying, and he said he knew that he would have to do Env. Sci over completely. He still went to our SM and told him the story, and asked if we could put him in contact with a local Env Sci counselor. We found a counselor, who after hearing the story, gave my son's buddy full credit for the badge, and my son only had to do the two requirments that were not signed off on the other boy's blue card. But he came forward thinking he was going to have to redo the entire MB. At that moment, I knew he would be an Eagle Scout. It took him another 5 years to complete the rest of the requirements, but I've known all along that whenever he got there, the ranks of Eagle Scouts would improve because he was there. My youngest son's experience was much more simple. He sacrificed a day at an amusement park (free) to help my mom, just because she called and asked. My mom still doesn't know that my son cancelled his plans. I think the same thing now about my youngest as I did my oldest: He will be an Eagle, no doubt in my mind. Mark

SM406, Your response is exactly what I would like things to be. So what I am about to say is not disagreement with you, but a further explaination of why I struggle with this isse. You spoke about morality, if defined by religious principles, particurly the Old and New Testement, being able to withstand the test of time. And I agree. However, I think it is very presumtuous of we who are Judeo (sp?) Christians to represent that we have the only legitimate religion. I believe that the way to eternal salvation is by accepting Christ, and all that that includes. But I don't think my belief has a "corner on the market". Heck, we may find out when we meet our maker that our ideas were all wrong and we should have been worshipping frogs all along. Of course I don't believe that, but intellectually, I have to accept that I am a believer in God and Jesus, not a knower. I could be wrong. So if I could be wrong, then the vast majority of society would also be wrong. And if society is wrong, other cultures, perhaps cultures that do not believe as we do, might be right. Maybe it isn't immoral to be naked. Maybe it isn't immoral to have multiple wives, as some cultures encourage. And IF our morals are wrong, then someone else's were right all along. And we have condemned those morals just as they have codemned ours. So who's really right? You and I, and most of the people we each know, believe we are. But we don't KNOW that we are. I intend to lead my life by what I believe to be true. But I acknowledge I could be wrong. If I am wrong, I hope whatever it is we find on the other side is benevolent. And if I hope for benevolence for me, I have to hope for the same for others who have chosen to believe something different (or by circumstance are ignorant). I hope that my morals are judged satisfactory by whatever being decides my fate after human life. And if I have that hope for myself, then I have to allow that other's morals may be acceptable to my God. And if acceptable to my God, can they be wrong, just because they are different than my own? Man, even I think it's getting deep in here. Maybe I better quit while I'm not too far behind. Mark

OGE, I'm betting you don't have much of a problem motivating your guys to get stuff done, do you? Nice going. Mark

In my idea for the home economics MB, sewing would be a main requirment. I agree it should not be basketry level, and that's why I wanted to make it include more than just sewing. I'd include washing clothes, and ironing, and even grocery shopping. We have a boy in our Troop who is getting ready to go to college. He has to start in the summer, so he's just about ready to leave. I asked if he was ready, and he said that he was almost done packing, but he was waiting for his mom to finish the last few loads of clothes. I asked him why he was waiting for her and not doing them himself. His answer just SHOCKED me. "My mom won't let us touch the soap." Mom was so worried that Johnny was was going to ruin his clothes if he washed them himself, she wouldn't let him touch the soap, for Pete's sake! This kid is an Eagle Scout, yet when he goes of to college, I'm going to be worried about whether he can wash his own clothes. Sure wish I had the chance to get him through Home Economics MB! Dave, I do all of the ironing at my house, too. It was a deal my wife and I made before we got married. I detest cleaning bathrooms, my wife hates ironing. It's been a deal for 20 years now. I kind of like it: I set up the ironing board down in the basement all by myself and turn on a ball game. No one bothers me. And being able to brag that I do all the ironing has earned me a lot of respect with my wife's freinds. Their husbands aren't too happy about it, but, oh well! Mark

KS, My respect for you grows every time you post. I read with great interest your comment about youth breaking boards. What you say makes a whole lot of sense to me. However, my son's school did board breaking (nothing else), and a breaking routine was required for Junior Black Belt. I've always questioned the idea. The only thing that made me comfortable about it was that when my son broke his boards, he kept them. On every board he broke, his initials were writen on one piece. I have always suspected that the instructor pre-assigned boards for each of the students. I figured that the small kids got boards that may already have a crack, and the biggest kids got solid boards. Never asked, but it's what I always figured. Mark

acco40, Your question to me gets to the core of major philosophical arguement I have with myself all of the time. I think it is very reasonable to say that morality is what society says it is. If this is not reasonable, than far too many societies in the past must be viewed as immoral. Would not older cultures who practiced animal sacrifices not be immoral by today's standards? But even if they would now be immoral, can we say they were immoral in a time that was so different than our own? I'd rather not phrase it as you have, that morality is decided by popular vote. But I think it is a function of the general situation of the society that is current at the time. My dilema: Using this same philosophy, if our current society moves from a general belief that some of today's activities are immoral, to one of accepting those activities, must I then accept them as moral myself? Let's examine the issue of this thread. I cannot fathom me believing that premarital sex is moral. I just don't see me ever accepting that. I think that our American society, despite obvious evidence to the contrary, also believes that premarital sex is immoral. But let's face it: I, and people like me, are fighting a losing battle. Movement on this issue goes from inpercepable to momentous. But at some point in our culture's future, my attitude will be out of style. It might even become unacceptable to think like I do. When that change happens, how do I reconcile my beliefs with society's standards? This is true as far as homosexuality goes, too, in my opinion. American culture always used to say that homosexuality was wrong. I agree with that stance. Now, I think it is obvious that our culture is changing. I try to fight it. I know others do too. But sooner or later, we as a society will be saying that those of us who say homosexuality is immoral will be old fashioned. My difficulty comes in applying my two positions. How can it be acceptable to view morality from the frame of reference of society's standards, but reject those things that I view as immoral, even though society might not? I'm just not smart enough to figure this one out on my own. Mark

Rooster7, I fear sounding elitist with this comment, and if I do, I am sorry. I really think what I will be guilty of is too much pride, or maybe just too much a compfort level, in my own religion. But what I will say is not meant to offend. As a Catholic, I find Gospel music too "preachy". Good or bad, when most everything religous you have ever known is going to Catholic Mass, and doing everything in the same order, and singing the same 25 songs over and over for years, you build up a comfort level for the familiar. Gospel is outside of my comfort zone. Can't say I don't like it, but I surely don't have an appreciation for it. I have to admit to being a little envious when I see depictions of "revival" type services. They certainly look more fun than Mass. This topic for me is a great study in how kids are much like their parents. When I go into my oldest son's room to wake him, he could be listening to Dave Mathews Band one day, Glen Miller the next, Mozart the next day, and the Beatles the day after that. He REALLY has a wide variety of music that suites his taste. But ask him what music he doesn't like, and he teel you rap and Gospel. I think the first time I ever heard him say that, I tried to remember if I had ever said the same thing to him or in front of him, and I don't believe I ever did. I guess the apple truly doesn't fall far from the tree. Too bad for him! Check out your kid's (our your parents') taste in music. I'll bet there is more of a similiarity than you first thought. Mark

My youngest son has a Junior Black Belt in American Kenpo Karate. He started when he was @ 7 years old, and aerned Black Belt when he was 13. He took a shade less than 6 years to earn Junior Black Belt. In American Kenpo, the system is broken up into techniques and forms (or kata). Forms are usually a series of techiques strung together. As I understand, when you see martial arts done in the movies, what you are watching are actually katas being perfomed on an attacker. There are seven belts, or ranks in the system, and each belt is divided into two levels, basic, and advanced. For an adult to advance (from Blue to Advance Blue, or Advanced Green to Brown), he must learn and demonstrate with proper form and control, 10 techniques, and one Form. In order to satisfy my son's instructor, at least, an adult had generally took between 5 and 8 months to learn and practice all requirements satisfactorily. In order to advance as a junior, each level required a young boy or girl to master 5 of the techiques, and the same form as the adult. This usually took between 3 and 5 months for a boy or girl. Throughout a child's "career", he is told that working toward Junior Black Belt is preparation for working to a full Black Belt. They are never under any illusion that they are the equal of an adult Black Belt. As an example, it is proper ettique in Karate for anyone of a lower rank to bow to a Black Belt. Not only don't adult Green Belts, for example, bow to a Junior Black Belt, but even Junior Green belts do not bow to a Junior Black Belt. The vast majority of kids I saw during my son's years in karate who wear a Black Belt met the requirements as laid out for Juniors. They each had the discipline to get to classes, practice outside of classes, be respectful, and live up to the standards that the instructor set for them. Are they different than the satandards for adult Black Belts? Absolutely. But so is the designation of "Junior Black Belt". I don't want it to sound like I speak for all karate programs. I tend to see things much as you do, OGE. I go to tournements with my son and wonder why it is that officials can't get kids to keep quiet, and how 5 year olds can be black belts. And perhaps the few programs that do maintain high standards don't do enough to promote their philosophy to the public. But the program my son was fortunate enought to find was very much like Scouts. Except that there would be no way for a young person to race through the program in 2 years. Mark

fotoscout, Extremely well said! I agree. I've actually written to National about my idea, but 've never received a response. I think it is a crime that we have the attention of teenagers for as much as 7 years, yet never expose them to things such as sewing, washing clothes, ironing, and other domestic chores. We want to turn out young men of character, with the ability to make their own way in the world, but we don't give them the oppurtunity to learn how to iron a shirt? I'd be satisfied combining my idea with Ed's and including this in Family Life, or make it it's own MB. But I think it is sad that we don't have a formal way of teaching a kid that he shouldn't bleach colored fabrics (well, except for denim!). Mark

OGE, No slight intended, I promise. Too often, I see the world only though my eyes. To all, The above is now a listing of why I thank you. Each of you have put into words the "why" of what you do. You are terrific! Mark

My taste is very ecclectic. Most anything but rap and Gospel. But if forced to endure a 20 hour car ride with just one CD and no radio (how would I make it without Rush Limbaugh?), I'd take Grover Washington. Bread's Greatest Hit's would be second choice. Mark

It's obvious to anyone who has followed this board for a while that we deliver the program in a vast number of ways. Each of us does our best, but we deliver the program each in different a manner. The best part of Scouting to me is that each and everyone one of us, regardless of how "accurately" we follow the program, do a tremendous service for an important segment of our American Citezenry: Male youth. Thanks for the Scouting program, and thank you to every one of you for what you do. Mark

AdvanceOn, Thanks for that bit of info. For the first time in my Scouting career, I am not going to summer camp. As the Advancement Chair and acting SM when we go to Heritage, I have been intimately knowledgable about their MB program. This year's acting SM has all of the info, and mentioned to me about the two Eagle Require'd MBs they added this year. We discussed this with the boys, and none of them wanted to pursue either at summer camp, so I didn't investigate these too thoroughly. Just to be clear, they also offer Swimming, Lifesaving, Camping, and Env Science, along with Hiking as other required MBs. And they do a fine job with these. I endorse them highly. And although I said I won't be going to summer camp this year, that's not quite accurate. I will be driving 5 guys out and back. Can't wait to make the 3 1/2 hour drive each way twice in the same week! Oh well, I get to go through my dad's home town. Maybe with no one in the car going back after dropping them off, I'll stop by and look around. Where in SW PA are you? And what week do you go to camp? Mark

OGE said that there isn't a more awful sight than seing an adult with a Scout Shirt on and various shades of bluejeans (I think I got the quote basically right. My apoligies to OGE if I missed it). He couldn't be more right. At a Troop court of Honor last fall, we invited our new UC. He must have come in during the opening flag ceremony, because none of us saw him come in. Everyone sat down, and the SPL began introducing all the important guests. The SM wispered to the SPL to introduce the new UC, and invite him to say a few words. He came to the podium in an open neck uniform shirt and jeans. After having seen our Troop in 100% impeccable uniforms, doing a flag ceremony that was close to drill team quality, he expressed his embarassment for his appearance. He hasn't accepted one of our invitations since. We did see him at RT, in his blue jeans. I think I've posted this before, but our Troop was a non - uniform Troop until about 10 years ago. It also struggled in a number of other areas, including boy apathy in general. The new SM at the time made a bold move. He demanded that all boys begin wearing full uniforms to all meetings. I know that is certainly not the acceptable method to teach what uniforming is all about, but at the time, he did what he thought he should (I wasn't yet in the Troop). He lost a number of boys over this issue. And he was sad to sse them go. But the boys who were left were very receptive to wearing the uniform, and the tradition was started. Now, 10 years and a 4 fold increase in membership later, we almost never have a problem with uniforms. The youth leadership expect full uniforms, and do a great job of explaining the purpose of uniforms when a boy "forgets" his. Now, the only boys out of uniform we ever have are coming from ball games and such. We had to ask the youth leadership to take it easy on them, because we think that it's more valuable that they come to part of the meeting without a uniform that miss it completely. And I know I told the story about the value our guys found in being in full uniform while touring New York City. The few who wore their uniform begrudgingly were converts after that trip. They were paid extra attention everywhere they went, and it seems foreign girls all wanted to talk to the boys in uniform. Mark

Eamonn, Good question. It's got to be tough to interview a bank official in the middle of a Scout Camp. Our summer camp this year is doing Communications (Limited to Life Scouts, I think). I guess this one could be done at summer camp, but why? Why would anyone want to spend a week in the outdoors doing an indoor MB? Mark

Bob mentioned the Citizenship badges as being last very often. In our Troop, the annual planning calender always has a trip scheduled for work on these badges. Participation is limited to people working on the badge. No one has to go if they don't want, but they all want to go. So if you want to go the the County Seat (does anyone other people in Mt. Pilot use that term?), or Washington D.C., or New York, you get started on these badges. The three Citizenships badges are most often completed by our guys in their 2nd, third, and 4th year in the Troop. Mark

Swimming is always our first, as we do a tremendous amount of aquatic activities. We push Swimming MB at the Scout's first summer Camp. I can't think of an exception in our Troop. Personal Management, Personal Fitness, and Communications vie for last finished. I suspect that Mgt. and Comm. get put of until last partly for KS's reasoning, but as often in our Troop because I am the MB Counselor for those two, and I have a reputation for being tough. Fortunately, almost every Eagle Scout has thanked me at his COH for the way I do Personal Mgt. They always say they got more from that merit badge than any other they did. Handicraft badges at summercamp are most prevelent in our Troop, but the two elective MB that are chossen most often in our Troop are Cooking and Hiking. It is a badge of honor in our Troop to have earned these two badges. Mark

OGE, Not a Junior Leader? I would have never guessed from your handle! And, I think I mentioned before, but "I don't know, ask your Patrol Leader" is our Geezer Patrol Cheer. We tend to set up by Patrol, with the geography of the site dictating how seperate Patrols are. The only time anyone really "runs" setting up camp is during our New Scout Campout, where the Troop Guide directs the new Scouts, and their "big brother" for the weekend, how and where tents should be set up (or SPL if for some reason the Guide couldn't be there, like this year, when the PLC did the annual planning calender and neglected to consider when Prom was!) Adults tend to find places very remote from main camp, if possible. Mark

And I agree too. I stand by my statement that the initial write up should only have to be detailed enough to show a specific level of commitment to the project at a set quality level. In OGE's example, that commitment obviously wasn't there. The write up wasn't the problem though. Had the write up been the same but the execution include the construction of the thing-a-ma-jiggy (play set), all would be fine. The problem was this Scout's commitment to his project. Were in in OGE's shoes during this situation, I probably would have approved the initial plans. I would not have approved the the project after the changes that were made. And it wouldn't have mattered to me that the end result was a fundraiser, or that fundraisers are prohibited as projects. This Scout didn't complete the project he developed. Very simple. I think we have one in our Troop that may end up the same. Dad is pushing his son to be Eagle, and right away at that. The SM kind of fell asleep at the wheel, and signed a questionable project write up, as did the District Advancement Chair. Project was completed with little outside help, and mostly by dad. And I now hear it may be benefitting a local retail store. It may get ugly. Mark