mk9750

Rooster7, I did not post in order to begin a debate on whose religion is better. And I won't start now. I understand that most Protestant faiths reject the premise that Mary was a virgin at the time Jesus was conceived and immediately after. If that is not true of your denomination, I apoligize for a wrong assumption. Dogma in the Catholic Church is the undeniables: Jesus is God's Son, He came to earth to suffer and die to save us, He exists in a real way in the bread and wine when Mass is celebrated, we must confess our sins in order to obtain God's absolution, and many other points. The doctrine of the Catholic Church is man made: You can't eat meat on Friday, you must make the Sign of the Cross, abortion is a sin, and many, many others. I used the examples I did to make a point. some Doctrine, although instituted by man, is correct, probably because it is Divinely inspired. Other Doctrine, like the meat on Friday, is very obviously not correct. Can you imaging anyone going to hell because he had a hamburger on the wrong day of the week? But for years and years, we Catholics held this Doctrine to be Divinely inspired also. I truly believe you speak about a position of Doctrine that has since been abandoned by the Catholic Church, and the vast majority of its members, when you say that we reject others' religions. You are right, we do not invite you to share in the Body and Blood of Christ, but that is only because no other religion believes that what was bread and wine IS the real Body and Blood. Some Protestant faiths see these articles as a symbol of Christ, but not Christ Himself. If I again assume something that is not true, I am sorry. But this discussion leads directly back to the discussion about what happens if what we believe isn't true. If you don't believe that it really is the Body and Blood of Christ, but it is, what will become of you? I'm sorry, but I fully believe that your heaven will be the same as mine, and we will share it together. And I think if you polled most Catholics, you'd find the same belief. I know it wasn't like that 40 years ago, and pockets of Catholics still hold us as the one true faith. But the feeling of exclusivity goes both ways, and I'll tell you a story to make that point. When my family lived in Charlotte, NC, there were only eight Catholic parishes in the area. They were very difficult to get to from where we lived, and we were very hit-and-miss as far as our attendence goes. My wife became very good friends with a neighbor who belonged to a nondenominational church. We went there a few times, and, in an effort to get our children involved in religious training, we enrolled them in Sunday School at this church. My wife's friend asked my wife to help out with Sunday School, and my wife was excited to be of help. She complete all of the paperwork, and all that was left was an interview with the Pastor. During the interview, he asked where my wife had migrated from, as her accent was obvious (What, northern Ohio has an accent! No way!). When she said where she was from, he asked what church she had attended here, as he was familiar with the area. When my wife named a Catholic church, the Pastor excused himself and my wife's friend. The friend came back in and apoligized, saying that Catholics were not welcome at their church. In this case, non-denominational must not have meant Catholic, too. My point is it surely isn't just Catholics that feel they have the right of way to God, and I think you should find that today, that opinnion is in the minority in the Catholic church. To answer FOG's question, you ae right. Do I think that what Catholics believe is generally more correct than other religions? Yes. Do I think that we are the only ones who could be right? No. Do I believe there is more than one path to God? I'm not sure. I hope so, for both myself and all others who lead good lives. Mark

acco40, Semantics only, but point taken. I use "my" religion, and "my" Troop, and "my" company all in the same way. they identify my affiliation, not my ownership. They are not intended to mislead. I am sorry if they do. But to type out the exactly perfect way to describe my relationship with any of these would make my already too long posts unbearable even to me. Mark

Rooster7, Are you saying your religion is better than mine? If so, I think I take exception to that. We have slightly different beliefs about the same God, and his Son. The biggest two of which I am aware are the Body and Blood of Christ in the form of bread and wine and the virginity of Mary. These are dogma issues on which both our churches stand firm. There are also issues of doctrine, but these are man made rules that I won't take a stand one way or the other as being right or wrong. I respect you for supporting your believes fervently. But I very much hope that you are not allowing that my denomination is equal to yours. Mark

I won't be going to Heritage with our Troop for the first time in 7 years (actually, our Troop only goes toi Heritage every other year). I'm going to miss it. But I am driving Scouts down there and back. I was considering playing golf at Nemocolin Woods if I can find a way to get on. Anyone going to be in the area Sat. 8/16 with their sticks? Mark

Mike, Have a great time! I like your idea about the culture. We do something similiar. We don't allow walkmans, etc. in the car, as we instill in the boys a sense that this is a trip for a group, not individuals. But we do allow them to bring their CD cases. Starting with the youngest boy in the car, they each have an oppurtunity to play one CD in the car stereo. Yeah, the adults have to listen to "I beat my mom over the head with a shovel, it left an impression on her brain" being screamed from the top of some punk rocker's lungs, but when it's the adults turn, they all get a chance to listen to classical, folk (my son just LOVES Alice's Restaurant by Arlo Guthrie!), the Beatles and lot's of other stuff that you'd never find in their collections. Read em' the good stuff. They'll complain, I'll bet, but at least one will thank you for it at their Eagle CoH, I gaurantee! At summer camp last year, I was reading the Illiad. Two teenagers asked to borrow it when I was done. They'll suprise you sometimes if you let them! Mark

EagleDad, Sounds like you had a great time and a great experience. When our guys do the A.T., they buddy up and two guys plan and carry their breakfast and lunch for the the pair. Each guy plans a diner for the whole crew. the young guys do theirs early in week, so their packs lighten up earlier. But everyone's pack lightens about the same through the week. You hit on a a big point when it comes to treks like this though. You talked about having guys searching out weight to redistribute when they got light. Our SM says this is probably the best lesson Scouts learn by doing these treks: They are part of a singular crew, not an island, and there just isn't room on the trip for selfishness. I remember the year my son went. He was taught before hand that the strong youth were to look for oppurtunities to help the smaller guys and the adults, and he was ready to do so. But about 3/4 of the way through the week (actually, 10 days), he developed an ugly toe infection. The rest of the trip was all down hill, which is actually worse than uphill in many ways. He was ready to tough it out, when the smallest kid in the crew wouldn't let him get up until he had taken my son's troop gear and put it in his own pack. My son will tell you that was one of the two most important memories he has from that trek. As a matter of fact, he made it a central theme in his speech at his Eagle CoH. Sound like you took a great bunch of people with you. That had to make the experience even more meaningful. Nice to have you back! Mark

Very tough situation. We had a similiar incident a month or two back, but with some intriguing twists. One of the freindliest, least agressive kids in our Troop (I'll call him Pete), during a game of capture the flag, pulled out his knife and told the boy he was guarding (let's call him Joe) that he was not to leave. He didn't brandish it at the boy, and, according to all of the boys who were witness to the incident, this was done with a smile on his face, and it was obvious to everyone that it was done as a joke and no harm was meant. Joe appeared to accept it that way until later, when the Pete's best friend yelled at Joe for not doing KP when he was supposed to. At that point, he told Joe's friend he was going to tell his parents about the knife incident. We all know that no matter what the circumstances, Pete acted inappropriately, and he was spoken to about this, and his totin' chit was taken. For this boy, it was a learning experience, and he now knows that even if no harm is meant, bad things can happen. Our SPL did a wonderful job, I think, taching this leasson to the boy. I was very proud. Our problem is with Joe's parents. Dispite hearing all of the accounts from the boys who witnessed the event, they want flesh. And in some small way, I think they are entitled to it. Even though Joe knew at the time that he was not really being threatened, and only told his parents to exact revenge over the KP, his parents do have a right to expect that their son is safe when at a Scout event. I don't believe the SPL has any plans to do anything more, and I know the SM backs that decision. But at least in this case, justice can't be served. the offense doesn't warrant any tougher punishment than already given, but it isn't enough to make the parents happy. In your case, if it were me, I would ask one of the parents to come along on the next campout or two. I'd hope that they see that this was an isolated incident that is not going to be repeated, and let him know what steps you take with the offender. And certainly, an actual apoligy will go a long way toward making all feel ike Scouting brothers again. Mark

acco40, Man, Oh Man alive! I proofread that post 3 times before I hit send, and you still caught me! That would be "bumps". Mea Culpa Mark

nldscout, Your facts are pretty much correct. However, you come to a couple of conclusions that aren't quite on target. 1st, I am not challenging anything. If this boy's desire is to become an Eagle Scout, it is MY responsibility, as the Advancement Chairman, to guide a Scout along the way so that he encounters only the bumbs in the road that the program intends. There are some aspects to his project that, through sources other than the boy, have me worried that he might encounter a serious bumb in the road. I am trying to do my job. And just to head you off at the pass, I know that there is no official position of Advancement Chair at the Troop level. Our Committee developed the position and issued the job description. I serve at the pleasure of the CC, and until she asks me to change my responsiblities, I will do my best to fulfill my obligations. What I am doing is very much consistent with these obligations. Your position is very similiar to the stereotypical SM who feels all aspects of the Troop are within his jurisdiction. Program is within a SM's jurisduction, and we as Committee Members should do a much better job to stay out of the SM's responsibility unless he asks us to help. SMs should understand that their responsiblity for advancement includes designing a program that provides opurtunities to advance, and reviewing each Scout at every rank to assure that they have met the requirements. I am charged with making sure policies are followed. Please don't ask me to abdicate that responsibilty. 2nd, you seem to assume that I am stepping on our SM's toes with this. In addition to the explaination above, this is not the case. The SM and I have the same concerns, and he is asking me to help resolve a problem, if one exists. This SM signed the project plan off with the understanding that one pretty major, and one minor addition would be included. Neither were done. In addition, the signature was given without knowledge of the plans to sell the end product. I still do not know if they are for sale, and if they are, I don't know if that sale will or will not contradict policy. I am certain your thoughts are well meant, and I don't mean anything here to be a personal attack on you. But in this situation, I would be irresponsible if I didn't review this. I certainly wouldn't be doing the Scout a favor by ignoring it, and I don't believe I would be doing Scouting in general, or current and future Eagle Scouts, any favor either. I was looking for the best way to handle this, not why I shouldn't handle it. Mark

Ed, With a few exceptions, I think you are right. The exceptions I can think of are, for instance, that Each Council can determine how Eagle BORs are conducted, and of course, there are no minumums as to hours or effort, just that it has to demonstrate leadership and be of service. Is there something in my posts that lead you to believe that some aspect of our normal process does not meet the booklet requirments? It is certain that the project having been started before a signature by the DAC is not kosher. And as I speak to the Scout about his project in depth, I am certainly going to point out that there is a potential problem there. But it was the DAC that signed the booklet, and the DAC who will chair the BOR. During the discussion after the BOR, I will be bringing up this issue. And because I will, I will be trying to get the Scout to determine for himself that he might want to consider doing things "the right way". But other than that, I don't think I have presented anything to say that the standards the booklet require are going to be ignored. And hopefully, not even that one will be. Mark

Here's where we stand: I spoke with the Scout last night. I framed the conversation as trying to help him, which I am, if that hasn't been apparent. I let him know that I was often used to review the details of Eagle projects by other guys in the Troop, and that he may not have known I had been helpful to other guys, and that if he wanted me to go over the details of his project with him before he had to turn his application in, I'd like to try to help. He said he would like me to do that for him, and we set a date after he gets back from summer camp to do this. He said the DAC has signed his booklet. That is a major plus, as if the DAC actually saw the write up, it's more likely that all is OK. I resisted asking him questions about the sale of the birdhouses, figuring that going down that line of questioning last night, without the booklet and any other material in front of us, was going to be construed as antagonistic, and that's not what I want to be. It might be possible when he goes home and tells his parents I offered to do this with him that they will feel it is antagonistic, but hopefully all will be well. This guy is a good kid. As I've said in the first post, I don't think he cares one way or the other about being an Eagle Scout, except to please mom and dad. But he reacted exactly as I hoped he would when I approached him last night - He accepted the offer of help. Now I just hope that everything really is up to snuff. But so far, the first half of the minefield has been negotiated successfully. Mark

Did anyone notice that the adults have bored Ryon and he has left? Is there a lesson we all, especially me, should learn from that? Mark

SM406, Excellent points. My big question though still remains why not try to take care of the locally with the Scout on an informal basis before it ever gets to his BOR? One of the big reasons I want to handle this right now either way is because his BOR is likely 3 - 8 months off. He has yet to start Personal Management or Personal Fitness, and I believe he has 3 or 4 other badges left to do. Add to the time to do all his MBs the lead time between submitting his application and his BOR (about 3 weeks in our District), too much time will have past to make the conversation meaningful, and with enough memory of all of the facts to have it intelligently. I spoke with the SM at lunch. I am going to sit down with the Scout and ask all of the questions for which I have only sketchy information. I am going to document the answers, and document what I advise him to do. If the Scout balks, or if the parents call to complain, I will send what I have documented to the DAC. Mark

PackSaddle, I agree with you 100%. And I think the problem lies with the way camps are staffed. At our Summer Camp, adult staff are the registered MB Counselor. However, they rarely have much direct involvement with instruction or testing. This is left to junior camp staff. Delegating to the junior staff is a great idea, but if the adult is responsible for signing the blue card, he should be more involved with testing each Scout before he signs. Additionally, group MB instruction, in my very humble opinion, makes for a less than thorough MB experience. That all said, in our experience, there are a few MBs that are easier at camp, not because the work is easier, but the resources are more readily available. Rowing, Sailing and Motorboating come to mind, as does Env. Science in our case. I think many would also say rifle and shotgun are easier at camp, although our Troop has better resources for these badges than even camp does. I'd have loved the chance to see what camp MB programs were like 40 years ago. I suspect that they were much closer to what we all believe would be best. Mark

Sharon, I think your reference to a committee is at the district level. I think Councls and Districts have the ability to decide how best to handle these approvals, and I know some require an appearance before a committee. In our Council, the District Advancement Chair for each District decides how to approve these. Ours approves all of them himself. If what you refer to as the committee is at the unit level, all the requirment says is to have the booklet signed by a representative of the committee. the CC is always an acceptable representative of the committee. Out Committee has also authorized me, as the Advancement Chair, to sign Eagle booklets. Occasionally, the ADC has made this approval over the phone. He did this in my son's case, when he was going to be away for 3 weeks. Normally, three weeks notice is plenty of time to arrange for his signature, but it wasn't in my son's case. The signature was obtained as soon as the AC got back. He even visited the work site and made a small recomendation to my son. In the current case, I still am not sure how the DAC approved this project, or even if he did. All I have to work from is what I have been told by people, including boys in the Troop. That's why I want to meet with the boy before I go any farther. I don't have the whole story, and certianly not his side of it. The disposition of the kits he had made is a big question to me. If this is for profit, and / or if the DAC didn't know about or understand it, regardless of approval, I fear a problem down the road. I am having lunch withe the SM in a few minutes. I am going to let him know that we have to do something, and soon. Mark

KS, That's kind of what I thought. The difficulty I have is how to get old requirements. If a boy called me to do a badge that he partialed 3 - 4 years ago, but the requirements had changed, how would one go about digging them up, and who is responsible for having the old requirements, the boy or me? Mark

TOUGH CROWD!

I think whatever the Counselor is willing to do is fine. Meet in person, e mail, carrier pigeon, I think all will work. Let me clarify what I was saying before. If you went out of state to summer camp, it'll be tough to get with the same Counselors (unless you do the e mail thing). What I was saying is that there probably was a summer camp in your area, that would have done most of the same MBs that the camp you went to did. Track down a list of the Counselors they used and try to get to them. They may not be on your list, but they have to be relatively current, or they couldn't have counseled at summer camp. this may save a lot of time and agravation. Mark

Sharon, Trying to find Counselors at home can be tough. However, mostly the same MBs are done at every camp. So if you find out who the Counselor at camp in your area was, you should be able to help your Scouts take care of this. Your message made it seem as though you have to deal with an Counselor within your District. I don't beleive that is true. Scouts can work on MBs during their entire Boy Scout career. So if they start a MB at summer camp when they are 11, they can take up until the day before they turn 18 to complete it. If they "partial" it, as I said, many Counselors may want the boy to review material previously done. Under those circumstances, it is possible that the requirments changed during the time between start and finish. If the Scout had his original MB pamphlet, I would let him complete the requirments as they were then, or let him chose to complete the new requirments. If he didn't have the old pamphlet (or some way of me seeing what the requirements were then), I would make sure he covered all the new requirements. I admit that this is how I would do it, not what I know to be policy. Mark

Packsaddle, I go through the same routine when giving a Life Scout the Eagle packet. I don't do it with the parents present, as our Troop culture is obvious, and everyone knows that we make the boys responsible for his own material, and for following the directions or asking for help. It isn't often, but we sometimes field questions from parents who say "I don't undersatand how Johny is supposed to do this. Can you explain it to me?" and my answer is almost always "I've explained it to Johny. If he doesn't understand it, send him back to me." We work hard to make sure that a Scout knows to make his project his own, not his parents. But I am certain this Scout got this conversation from me: I remember it it clearly. Bob, The prospect of the BOR is what makes me want to settle this long before then. I am always asked by the District Advancement Chairman to be on BORs for Scouts in our Troop. I suspect that if this Scout specifically asked me to be excluded, that would happen. But if not, I will be faced with the likelihood that I will be the driving force behind the BOR not passing him. I don't have a problem with that, but it just seems like it would be a better experience for all if this were resolved before then. One of our ASMs, as I was discussing this informally with he and the SM, mentione it is pretty ugly of us to have approved his project and then later question it. And of course, he is right. But in this case, the Scout didn't work through the normal process, and didn't get the benefit of people being critical of the project before he started. One could also question why it has taken so long to bring it up now. the answer is that I am just now hearing about the possible issues. And again, I can't describe much of what I am saying as "facts". What I know is generally 2nd or 3rd hand. I understand that I appear to be fighting for keeping this "in house" first, and I guess I am. It just seems to me that if the project hasn't been done properly, and I (we) can cnvince him of that, acrimony will be minimal. The vast majority of you so far seem to feel taking it to the next level is more appropriate. If the above doesn't convince you otherwise, and / or if more people weigh in saying that the District AC should be informed, I think I will chose that route. Thanks! Mark

Thanks, and keep the thoughts coming! Shemgren, I agree that the dad doing the work is not de facto evidence that the project did not show leadership, but it is very telling, especially given everything else that I know or have heard. I agree that it is likely (though not for certain) that I have burned bridges with the parents. And I am sure you are right that they bypassed me in order to have a path of least resistance. On a BOR for Life, we asked this Scout to work with the SM to develop a leadership project within the Troop, as his effort at PL was not very sincere. I spent easily 45 minutes after the BOR on the phone with mom, and ended up with califlower ear. I am sure they worked to avoid me. The idea of going to the District AC crossed my mind, and I may do that. But it seems to me that I am not doing this Scout any service by just kicking it up to a higher authority without trying to work it out with him first. It seems as if I would also be chosing the path of least resistance. I also wonder what value there is is going to the district guy when the boy may not even care. As a matter of fact, now that I am thinking about it, what are the chances this guy sabotaged his own project? I am not a qualified phsycologist, but seems like that might be a possiblity. Mark

Ed, I think you are right. But this is only part of the problem. Even if the District AC signed off, what would happen at BOR or National Review? Someone (and it is likely to be me) will have to deal with these parents. I am going to need as much armor as I can get here. I am assuming all of the facts are correct, but until I speak with the boy directly and openly about his project, what I know is only speculation and innuendo. But just wanting to talk to him has his parents irked. Mark

I've got a tough one, and figured all of you would be a great reference library for help. We have a Scout (15) whose parents are pushing very, VERY hard for to make Eagle. He seems mostly uninterested, except to please his parents. The adult leaders in the Troop, and me in particular, have done quite a bit to try to help this boy understand that making Eagle is his decision, not his parents. It's a tough thing to do, because we are all conscientous to try and not step on mom and dad's toes. Because we have not seemed supportive to the parents, his Eagle project was developed and completed with the barest of input from normal adult leadership: The Scoutmaster signed his plan off with he understanding some changes would be made, and he bypassed me and went to the CC for Committee approval. He certainly had that right, and I don't dispute that. But our CC, as wonderful as she is, is not very knowledgable about the ins and outs of Eagle projects. He completed the project before he spoke with the District Advancement Chair, which is against our Council's policy. A number of adults asked to be able to help, but were told no. He recruited a couple of his friends, and the project was completed in two - one hour sessions on Sunday mornings. My son was one of the boys who helped. He said that the project was pretty lame (his words), and that dad did most of the work. At one point 4 boys were eating doughnuts and watching dad glue stuff together. As I understand now (about two months later), the bird house kits that this boy (or his father) made are intended to be sold at retail by a local store. I don't know the purpose for the sale, but I suspect it is for profit. I spoke very quickly with the boy last week (he worked very hard to get out of my radar screen when I asked him about his project). He said that he finally called the District Advancement Chair, and got his approval over the phone. I told him that we should sit down and review his project, perhaps with the SM, to get any problems taken care of before it is too late. I have now heard through others, including my son, that mom and dad are furious with me for questioning his project. They say that I've never questioned anyone else's project after it was done. And they are right. However, I've always had the chance to provide some guidance to other's projects BEFORE they were started. My questions: You have all of the details as I know them. Is this project a problem? Am I handling this in the best possible manner (trying to sit down with the Scout to review his project and make sure it will be accepted by a BOR? How should I deal with the parents? I really can use your help! Mark

Laura, Feel free to tell me to buzz off if I've misinterpreted, but the end of your post made it seem as though you felt a Counselor had no right to retest "partials". I humbly disagree. As I understand it, the MB Counselor that signs the blue card as complete has an obligation to assure that the Scout met ALL of the requirements, not just the ones left undone. He has the option of accepting any work previously done, rejecting it all and starting over (not very wise, IMHO, but acceptable), or, what I think is best, reviewing some or all of the requirements to assure that the requiremetns were completed satisfactorily. If asked to help a Scout complete a partial, I always want him to speak about some of the important requirements, to get a sense of his understanding, or to see how involved he was in the work he did. I rarely review all of the "partialed" requirments. But I am not going to sign a blue card as complete if I am not certain that the work isn't complete. Mark

Ed, Boy, I just don't know about that. I see God as benevolent, and I don't believe everyone has the oppurtunity to believe what we believe. With your stance, all Jews who lived before Jesus are also condemed to eternal hell. That just doesn't seem right. Try for just a minute or two to see, for arguements sake alone, that you and I end up being wrong. Let's say Hinduism is the one true religion. Or that we idolize a false god by worshipping Jesus, when Judeisnm was the Way. Will you and I burn forever? Through your posts I have come to know you as a good man. You have chosen what you believe, and you believe it fervently. As do I. I want to believe, and I certainly hope, that should we meet Him, and He is not what we thought, that our goodness will speak well for us. And if it would, then those who are also good should also not fear for meeting our God. Mark (mk9750 - I add that because with a new Mark on the forum, sometimes I have been confused about to whom other members are directing questions and responses.)