mk9750

Dave, Any opinion on the central issue here? I'd be very interested in your comments. Mark

Bob, Now I'm confused. Your initial response was what convinced me that in this situation, he should NOT turn in the application. If he does, he must then adhere to YP guidelines, and he could not help this boy get to camp. This way, according to your original reply to me, at least he is not in violation of YP guidelines. I do agree that he is finacially responsible if an accident happens. But he has that same responsiblity when my son drives this boy to summer band practice. It is no more or less a risk in either case, and one both he, and the parents of the boy, are willing to accept. My reservation is only that it is obvious we are exploiting a part of the rule that allows this (according to your original reply). The risk involved does not concern me anymore than when he drives anyone in any other circumstance. When balanced against a boy not being able to go to summer camp, I'm willing to accept that. Mark

Dan, Have a great time! We have two crews going to Tinnerman Canoe Base in Canada this August. Both crews elected their own crew leaders about 4 - 5 months ago, who did as much of the planning as they could along side the adults. It's kind of ironic that the BSA encourages boy run, but they force the adults to do so much,particularly paperwork. Occasionally, when a boy presents an idea to the PLC for an event that we have not done before, the SPL assigns him as the crew leader. He then becomes responsible for gathering information, informing and training the members of the Troop, securing resources (specifically, but not only, adults), and making arrangements. This works great for us. When guys are really excited about their own idea, they work their fannies off making the idea go. And if their just trying to be a smart aleck with an idea, which does happen sometimes, their efforts fizzle out quickly. Mark

To answer a few questions: My oldest son is going to summer camp with his Troop as an older brother, and one who is experienced going to this camp. As it turned out this year, none of the registered adult leaders who can go to summer camp this year have been to Heritiage before. My son will be fulfilling two purposes. He will assist the acting SM with his responsiblitites, and he has been asked to specifically work with the SPL, who has struggled recently maintaining his composure while leading the Troop. I have been the acting SM for summer camp at Heritage in the past. I cannot go this year. I have spent much time with my son going over the details of how the camp operates so that he can assist the acting SM this year. It worked out like this because this year's acting SM works 2nd shift, and we have not been able to get together much to go over these details. As it turns out, none of my older sons close friends are going this year. 3 of them are now 18, and the couple guys he hung around with that are still in the Troop are not going to summer camp. He is not going as a friend to anyone. He actually would prefer not to go. He is not registered as an ASM because he turned 18, had his Eagle CoH, and graduated within a few weeks of each other. Then, a week after graduation, he went to Hilton Head with the family of a friend for two weeks. It just wasn't high on his priority list.The application is filled out, but has just not been turned in. He cannot travel with the group to summer camp on Sunday because of work. He will leave our town Monday morning. He originally was going to travel alone. The mother of a 14 year old Scout, who happens to be my YOUNGEST son's best friend, found out that my oldest was leaving Monday and asked if her son could hitch a ride, as they will be arriving from out of town late Sunday. My oldest has driven this boy, with AND without my youngest son all around town on non Scout events. Although I recognize that the spirit of the rule is not being upheld, based on some of the early answers to my question, we (my oldest son, the mother of the Scout, the SM and me) decided to make the best of the situation. Rather than providing no way for this boy to go to summer camp (his parents cannot drive him the 4 hours to get him there), we decided to have my son not turn in his application, remain an unregistered adult, and drive the boy to camp. Everyone in the mix, with the slight exception of me, is happy with the arrangement. I hope this clears up any of the questions that everyone had about how and why this situation exists. Mark

Dave, I too think you are a very welcome addition to our little cast of characters (and aren't we all characters!). My opinion of our local professionals has ranged from "not too bad" to "man, what a terrific resource". In my opinion, we've not had a really bad DE, and both Scout executives we've had since I've been in the program were very good. My take on the whole topic of professionals goes something like "It's a darn shame Boy Scouts has to be run like a business. But it has to be, and since it does, the people who make decisions aren't always going to be liked." I've always felt that as long as a profesionals recognizes that I do this as a volunteer, that I do it for free, and that I do the best I can, I'll never have a probelam with them. Mark

Larry, Welcome! Our guys just got back from a trip to D.C. They had tried to find a Scout camp, and as you found, nothing close. Then they tried to con an alumnus of the Troop (Eagle Scout, now works for the CIA) into letting them flop on the floors of his apartment. His roommates vetoed that, so they tried Military bases, and got a very cold shoulder. they ended up staying at a Howard Johnson's in Maryland. Costs more and certainly isn't "camping", but on the flip side, it was more convenient than most anywhere they could have stayed, and their uniforms all stayed reletively nice (they went to the laundrymat once during their 5 days their). The trip costs $95.00 for gas and hotel (4 guys per room, 5 nights). they loaded up every day at the continemtal breakfast, and made sandwhiches that they alternated carrying around for lunch. Dinners ranged from Taco Bell to Pizza Hut. Dinner, admissions, and transit fares, plus soveniers, were out of pocket for each guy. My son came back having spent $140.00 in addition to the original $95.00 It wasn't cheap, but my son can't quit talking about it. Also, if you want to get in to some of the neat stuff, like the Pentagon, make arrangements at least 4 weeks ahead. Mark

Bob, I tried to do my own rudimentary search, and couldn't find a post that FOG made that he called himself Al Lundy. Although he registered 6/19, the earliest post I can find for him was dated 7/6. If there is an easier way to search this, I don't know it, but I couldn't find the post to which you refer. Did he really use a fake name? I'm just asking because I want to be fair. My gut tells me it is probably true, only becuase he didn't deny it in his response. I just couldn't find it. It is nice to have you back though. Mark

Thanks for the quick responses! They were very helpful. Based on the answers, were will go ahead and let him drive. He has the Adult Leader Application filled out, but he wouldn't be able to turn it in until after summer camp anyway, so he technically isn't a registered adult. I am curious about his status, though. He reregistered during rechartering in January as a youth, then turned 18. What does that make him now? The mom involved was very quick to agree to signing a permission slip, which includes a statement that she accepts that her son will be the only Scout in the car. Her statement was that my son has carted her son all around town anyway for ball games and band practices. Thanks all for your help! Mark

caddmommy, Welcome to the forum! You'll find many wise answers to questions here, if you listen carefully. A number of people in these forums are very knowledgable about Scouting, and you won't often go wrong turning here for answers to your questions. As KS says, 1 year limit is a myth. Scouts may work on MBs at any time they are Boy Scouts. Partials may be carried from one Council to another. One additional bit of advice though. All MB Counselors have the responsiblity to assure that a Scout who completes a MB has actually completed all of the requirements. In the case of partials, he may do this by accepting the information on the card, or he may verify completion in his own way. When a Scout brings me a partial, unless I know exactly who the original Counselor was and am comfortable with how he does MBs, I will usually pick one or two of the more important requirements and review them with the Scout. Not usually a full blown redo, but just to get the sense the the Scout actually did the requirement. Only once did I have to do a complete redo of all the requirements. A Scout brought to me a blue card for Personal Management but said he couldn't remember doing any specific requirment. We started over. BTW, did you know your caps locks are on? Mark

acco40, As I understand, there is no such thing as a former Eagle Scout (Steven Speilberg may be the exception). Mark

I don't have access to a copy of the guidelines right now, but need to get some advice about two questions very quickly. We are under the impression that adults 18 - 21 may not drive Scouts to activities and events. Is this true? If an 18 year old is going to summer camp as an extra adult, but is not registered as an adult, is he still bound by the two deep leadership rules? My oldest son, who just turned 18, is going to summer camp the day after everyone else. One of the Scouts' mothers asked me if my son could drive her son to summer camp, as they will be out of town for a wedding and won't be back until 5 - 6 hours after the Troop leaves. As of now, my son and this boy will be the only two in the car. The mom is willing to sign a special permission slip to do this, and to acknowledge that it will be only her son and mine in the car. I am still uncomfortable with this. Any suggestions? Mark

Joe, This sure seems to be way over the top. 4 Scoutmasters? How many does your Troop have? Or were some ASMs? Even if they were, why do they need 4? This is a SM Confernece, which means the boy and the SM, not the boy in front of a bevy of adult leaders. Postponment based partly on lack of basic skills? I don't think so. Our SM always reviews a few basic skills in a conference, even with Star, Life, and Eagle. If he finds a weakness, he will try to get the SPL to assign the boy to teach the skill the next time it comes up. But he wouldn't "fail" someone for this at the higher ranks. And, as I have come to learn, a boy can't "Fail" his SM conference. He either has one or he doesn't. In our case, and I suspect many others, Scout Spirit is discussed and signed off at the SM conference. Maybe the SM can "fail" a boy on Scout Spirit, bit not on the confernece itself. Paperwork problems? Come on! If there are paperwork problems at this point, either your son didn't do his paperwork carefully enough, or someone who handles advancements in your Troop didn't do their job well enough. I suspect it was the latter. I am the Advancment Chiar for my Troop, and I know I make errors. But I can assure you that if there was a mismatch between the official MB dates and the dates on a boy's application, and if the boy came to me to verify his dates before he presented the application to anyone, it would get corrected. Sounds to me like someone tried to sabotage his efforts. I don't want to believe that's true, but that's what it seems to me. Two hours and not quite finished yet? Some of the SM conferences that take place in our Troop take that and longer, but that's because they often get the important (official) stuff out of the way, then spend a long time talking about memories, stories, the future, and just plain conversation. By the time a boy gets to this point in our Troop, the SM has become a real friend. And lastly, at least in our Council, dates only have to match month and year, and be the appropriate date to match rank advancement. Maybe it's not like that in your Council, but if someone is being picky enough to try to fix 5/15/00 and make it 5/17/00, that's ridiculuous. I think you son has put up with enough. Have him contact the District Advancement Chair. Mark

CONGRATULATIONS TO BOTH OF YOU!!! Having just recently watched my oldest son accept his Eagle Medal, I now have some idea how you feel. It is a proud moment for your son, you and Mrs. Rooster (somehow, I think she might be offended by that, but I hope you know what I mean!), and your Troop. Rooster is crowing and acting like a peacock about his Eagle and talking about turkeys. And I called his wife Mrs. Rooster when she probably is a swan. The bird theme is making me dizzy! Mark

SM406, Thanks for making me check my dates. It is 7/19, not 8/16, that I will be heading to Heritage. So if you want to play on Sat, 7/19, THAT's when I'll be there! If you're going to be at Freedom, try to find Troop 75 from Greater Western Reserve in Ohio when you're there. Dave will be our acting SM, and I'm pretty sure my older son Matt will be there as an adult leader (man that sounds odd calling my son an adult leader!). Look them up and let them know I wish I were there. They'll get a kick out of it. And then feel free to report back and let me know how the Troop looked. This is the first year I'm not the lead adult, so I'm curious how much better Dave will do than I did. I bet a lot! Have fun! Mark

Zahnada, Thanks, that's very kind of you to say. Now that the love fest is over, what were we disagreeing about? No really, thank you. Mark

The only worry I have is that my good intentions do not come through in my posts. I write, erase, rewrite, edit, erase, and rewrite my posts again, trying to make sure I am representing what I truly mean, and even then, sometimes I worry. Have I disagreed with most everyone on this forum at one time or another? Absolutely. Have I written anything that was malicious? I hope not. But I can assure all, that if I did, it was because my keyboard won't let me get onto the screen what I have in my heart. Mark

I too appreciate what this forum has meant to me. And if I have done anything that does not add to its value to others, I am sorry. Mark

I think Bob knows he is a book thumper, and I think he may even know he comes off as pompous sometimes. But he does so for a legitimate purpose, and I appreciate him being here, and would never hope he changes, even when I want to disagree with him. I do object to him being called disingenuous. Lacking in candor? Not frank? That's not the Bob White I've come to know. I'm not so sure Mr. Fat Old Guy knows he is generally rude and inflamatory. Ignorance is often bliss. On second thought, I think I'll call him FOG. He has written enough to earn my disrespect. No, on third thought, I think I'll just ignore him all together. Not enough value in what he has to say to wade through the rest. Now, was there someone suggesting that other forum members don't like Bob? So far, the verdict is thumbs up for Bob, and at least one thumbs down for FOG, unless he wants to start playing nicely. Mark

Now darn it OGE, I vowed again...! But this really isn't the topic I vowed to stop talking about. I also went to St. Charles Borromeo Seminary, in Wickliffe, (Cleveland) Ohio. My class started with 71 boys, if I remember correctly. They announced the closing of the high school in the middle of my Junior year. There were 13 of us left. Some transferred to other Catholic H.S., 8 took English and Government in the summer and graduated in Sept., '76 instead of my June, '77. It was also a Diocesean Seminary. I still remember what would be the Patrol Cheer of the faculty if it were Scouts, repeated as a chant as we left for the weekend: "Remember, you're not 5 day Seminarians!" I have adjusted this line and used it often when talking to Scouts. Amazing the coincidences sometimes, isn't it? Mark

I must confess to a terrible weakness. I vowed I would refrain from this discussion. Can't do it. Much the same as I couldn't resist the last helping of ice cream in the refrigerator last night. What can I say, I'm weak. OGE, Thanks. Glenn, You sound as if you have a very deep understanding of our faith (I hope I presume correctly that you are Catholic). I probably aught not be contradictary, but I was in the Seminary in high School, and am certain that what we learned was that Dogma is the core of our beliefs and are unchangable. Doctrine is man made, usually accompanied by a declaration that it is infallable as being Divinely Inspired. Fasting and Abstinence was taught to us as being Doctrine, and used as an example, problably because I was in the Seminary within a few years of when the rule was changed. I am aware that some sacrifice is still expected, but the entire practice used to be viewed as sinful to eat meat on Fridays. Now we are taught that extra Graces are obtained by doing some penetential sacrifice. Rooster7, Just a quick story to give you my understanding of your status as viewed by the Catholic Church: When my oldest son was born, we sought his Baptism. Our Diocese rule is that Godparents must be one practicing Catholic, and one practicing Christian. My wife's brother, one of the most upstanding people I know, has been attending church with his wife, rather than being an active Catholic. Our parish Pastor refused to consider him as a Godparent, saying he was the worst kind of Christian, one that turned his back on his own church. I personally don't agree with this, but that was at least our Pastor's perception of people in your situation. How sad that there are still intolerant people, especially in positions like he is. As Glenn wrote, it is true that we see ourselves as the Church that Jesus started. I happen to believe this too, as it was the Protestant religions that rejected and walked away from the autority of the Pope in Rome, which was a direct line back to Peter and the Apostles. I will grant to you that the way our faith goes about teaching the Bible falls short of what I believe we should do. But it is the Church Jesus left us. As far as the respect / reject of other's religions, I have to say Rooster7, that I vehemently disagree with you. If everyone in the world had the same attitude I think you have, that the followers of your faith must do no more than tolerate the right of others to believe as they wish, our society is in real trouble. This conversation is a great example. For the most part, it has been very civil. Yet it has been passionate, and usually very cerebral and spiritual. Yet my faith has not been changed, and maybe it has been strengthened. I am certain your faith has not wavered. If we continue to try to convince each other we are right, where does tht get us? I don't think it's closer to God. As respectful as I can be, what I perceive as one of the tenets of many Protestant faiths, the requirement that followers be missionaries and bring to the unbelievers that which is your faith, I think is misguided. As a Catholic, I hope and pray that others find the same happiness in our faith as I do, or, in your case, come back to find it. I will do whatever it is to help that, because I think it is part of my duty. But I think it is not what God intends of us to try to force our faith on others. And that is what my perception of many Protestant faiths do. I commend the strength of your belief. I truly mean no offense. I hope that comes through in what I write. And I stand shoulder to shoulder with you as fellow Scouters, and I am proud that we are in this great program together. But I think as far as this topic goes, I will now sign off. Mark

Marty, Too bad you're not in town this week. Indians vs Yankees. And we're gonna kill da bums! Well, probably not this year, but... I'm actually going to tomorrow night's game. I am taking my three employees for dinner and the game. I don't know how you'd recognize us, but if the game is telvised in NY, there will be four of us about 8 rows back in the left field bleachers. Let me know when you headed toward us. I'd be happy to help! Mark

Marty, (or Mr. Doyle, if you would like to be thought of in the same category as Mr. Fat Old Guy), No offense taken. I don't know if Jones Beach was on the itinerary because it was close to were they stayed in the Bronx (that's what I suspect), or because the SM thought it would be something the guys would enjoy, and therefore went out of their way to do. My directional antena is fine when discussing places I have been. I make no claim to knowing NY, so your correction is well received. I hope my mention of the picture my son has offends no one. It has a place of honor in his room because of the significance it has. I am fortunate that none of my friends or family were there. My respect for those who were lost, especially those who perished trying to serve others is sincere. If you need directions in north eastern Ohio, please let me know. iveymdj, Have a great time. And, in case your boys forget, thank you for making the effort to do this for them. They will appreciate it. Mark

Hunt, What a terrific suggestion! I am ashammed I didn't think of it! I agree 10000%. It will last way longer than the candy he'll buy at the trading post, or the cheeseburger he'll buy with the gift certificate. But fotoscout, I also applaud you for recognizing a good effort and wanting to do something to reward it. I suspect that at least some of today's youth's lack of effort to do good is caused by adults empathy when they do. Maybe if more of us (mk9750, are YOU listening?) went out of our way to notice and reward the behavior we desire, we'd get it. I spent 3 years as a Den Leader at day camp a few years ago. Generally, Den Chiefs were more of a problem than a help. If you found one who was valuable, please take the time to write the notes. Mark

Here's my two cents from someone who has never been there, but whose son went as a Scout trip two years ago: Take the advice and try to contact someone local to act as a guide. Our SM was from the Bronx, so he was a great guide for our guys. Make a point to go to the 42nd Street Reading Room. I here the archetecture will blow even teenage boys away. We have two boys who went on the trip when 16 who are now going into archetecture or archetectural engineering in college because of their vist to the 42nd street reading room. Wear full uniforms. The number of favors you will get, ranging from not having to wait in line to going in private entrances to not having to pay entrance fees to even getting into some places that are closed is amazing. And all of the foreign tourists seem to want to talk to and get pictures with Boy Scouts in uniform, Boys who started out complaining about having to wear uniforms were glad they did by the end. Consider making the trip a long (4 or 5 day?) weekend. As mentioned above, NY is big, and you can't even scratch the surface in a day or two. For relaxation, go to Jones beach. I hear the scenery is spectacular (OK, this came from 16 - 17 year old boys. Maybe not so exciting if the group is young). Our group stayed in the SM's mom's house in the Bronx and mass transitted everywhere they went. They never even considered driving anywhere. Never, NEVER let anyone, including adults, go anywhere without at least one buddy. Even our SM, a native of the Bronx, is apprehensive about allowing anybody to go anywhere without a buddy. And don't let the kids take any more money then they will need for the day. To add on to the last point, try desparately to dicourage kids from buying things from street peddlers. the $175.00 per of Oakley sunglasses one of our guys bought for $15.00 had every taking bets on how long they would last before they broke. No one won. They didn't make it out of the city before they were toast. Unless you want to consider eating a tourist activity, find a way to provide your own breakfast and lunch at least. It is very expensive to eat in NY. Our guys had the advantage of having a house as home base, but they brought their own cereal and lunchmeat. One person made and carried sandwhiches for the group every day. Just as an aside, one of my son's most prized possessions right now is a picture of him and his best buddies all sitting on a wall with the World Trade Center towers in the backround. Exactly 2 months to the day later, they weren't there anymore. Mark

I stand corrected. I took as fact a memory of a conversation I had with an aunt (not Catholic) probably 20 years ago. Either her statement was false, or, more likely, my memory of what she said failed me. I am sorry. Packsaddle, I agree. I think I stated clearly that I don't intend to argue the value of any religion over another. But I will protect "my" religion when I think someone is disparaging it. And I don't mean Rooster7. I think the general tone of many of the posts portrayed an anti Catholic slant, and I don't think that was fair. I am not as passionate about my faith as I wish I were, nor as passionate as some posters here. But I just won't hear of others saying being Catholic is wrong, which is what I interpretted some posts to be saying. BW makes a great statement - " I have difficulty understanding how some people feel they are fit to comment on the feelings and beliefs of a religion they do not practice, regardless if it is their own or someone elses." Mark Mark