mk9750

For what it's worth, our Troop seems much like CalicoPens's. New Scouts crossover and are given a generic neckerchief bought from the Scout Shoppe. At the Court of Honor after a Scout earnes 1st Class, he is presented with our hand made "Troop" neckerchief, embroidered with a logo for our Troop that is now 50 years old. This necker, and the ceremony in which it is presented, are very special in our Troop. The Scouts really aspire to earn that neckerchief. It is one of the reasons, I think, that a good percentage of our Troop make 1st class by the Court of Honor after their second summer camp. The Scouts in our Troop wear their neckerchiefs all the time when in uniform. As a matter of fact, we rarely see a Scout without a complete uniform - Pants, Shirt, Belt and Neckerchief, and usually socks, too - except in the summer when Troop t shirts are the norm. We wear uniforms to all meetings, to all outside activities unless inappropriate, like a climbing event, and to and from ALL campouts. We haven's had an adult wear a neckechief if many, many years, if at all. Most of us wear open collars or bolo ties at meetings and traveling, and the green ties at CoH, SM Conferences, and BoRs. We do have one ASM who insists on wearing the red dress tie with fluer d' lis (sp?) with his uniform. To all of the rest of us, this looks extremely tacky. But we tried to convince him to accept our gift of a green tie, and he won't hear of it. I too believe that the neckerchief should be a sacred (small "s") part of the uniform. I hope it never goes away. Mark

Scoutingagain, Although I took your comment as constructive even without the effort to soften the blow, I appreciate your effort to be kind. Truly, no offense taken. I mostly agree with what you are saying. In this case, I know we were very clear when discussing the expectations, and also with the training he received for the position in which he was supposed to serve. It was the Scout who did not make the effort that was expected and that he agreed to make. However, I think we did a terrible job providing guidance along the way. At one point, we attempted to have this discussion with him, but it happened as his father was there waiting for him, and it turned quite ugly. Later, as it became obvious that improvement was not coming, we took the easy way out and avoided further confrontation. In the end, we did not do our job. We've not had this problem in the past - Every Scout who has sought a Position of Responsibility has at least made an effort. So when the first guy who didn't needed to be lead toward either improving or resigning, we didn't do things well. There is enough breast beating required because of this instance to go around the block. The Scout didn't make an effort, the SM and I didn't do our job in guiding the scout, the SPL didn't ask for help when his ASPL wasn't showing up, and the Scout's dad inserted himself into a conversation in which he really didn't belong. And remember, I also took the chicken way out at his BoR. But we'll know better from now on. Thanks! mk

VERY interesting question! I just set up and sat for an Eagle BoR. As Advancement Chair, I also feel I have a responsiblity to participate, regardless of my personal feelings for a Scout. However, there have been times, like this one, that I wish I could have taken the easy way out and declined. I truly don't believe this boy fulfilled either his "Active" requirment nor his "Position of Responsiblity" requirment. I knew the rest of the Board was not going to be persuaded that my position was correct, and I also knew that an appeal was likely, which would have been succesful. So even though I held my nose, I voted with the majority and there is one new, less than exemplary Eagle Scout among us today. I have vowed to mayself to never be in this position again. As a Scout demonstrates he isn't fulfilling his responsiblities, I will be much more up front with him so that he knows well in advance that there is a problem. We have one other gentleman on our committee who seems to be asked to serve on Eagle BoRs for the guys in our Troop all the time. When I asked him in this case, he declined, saying he was likely to vote no. When I explained that if that was his position, he should serve so that a Scout who did not earn the rank would not pass. He still declined. As far as having a preconceived bias before the Review, I am of the belief that most everyone has a bias TOWARD voting yes at Boards of Review, and we all still participate for those. Having a preconceived notion is not a bad thing - We develop them by observing the Scout in their activities in, and sometimes out of Scouting. Just because the prior opinion in negative doesn't mean it isn't valid. Good luck to you! Mark

Tree, I think you are solid ground. All the parties agree, and the purpose for making the switch is a valid one. You seem to have all of the qualifications I would want of someone fulfilling this important role. I say go for it. One other way to proceed could be like our Troop did it for our SM's son. Our SM was not willing to let his son "get off easy" by letting one of the ASMs do the conference. All of the ASMs at the time were pretty new. So he asked one of them to participate with him for his son's SM Conference. Although the SM has only the one son, we agreed after the experience that this was a great situation. The Scout got the benefit of his father's SM wisdom, the ASM got a glimpse at the process, and the Scout got a fair conference that at least mostly avoids the appearance of favoritism. Good luck with your conference. I'll bet you (and the Eagle candidate) will do well! Mark

Eamonn, Thank you! Mark

Our Troop meets 50 weeks of the year. We take off the week after summer camp and the week between Christmas and New Years. Except for Christmas, if a Holiday falls on a meeting night, we either still meet or move the meeting. We have a weekend campout 11 months a year. The month of summer camp we do not have a weekend campout. I thought it was interesting that you mentioned Cubs. Back when I was directly involved in Cub Scouts as a Den Leader and Cubmaster, practically every Den I knew of, even in other Packs, met every week, although some did skip meeting during the week of a Pack meeting. I was one of only two Den Leaders I knew who had regular Den meetings all through the summer. They were every other week instead of every week, and were not mandatory. I also suggested that the boys not wear uniforms, although I asked that they do wear one piece of their uniform at every week. It was almost a contest to see how outrageous the guys could be with how they wore their one piece of the uniform. The best was a Webelos slide as a toe ring. Now, as I have become active with Packs as a Commissioner, and helped with a few Roundups and attended a couple of Pack meetings, it seems that holding Den meetings once a week is ancient history. The vast majority of Den Leaders are holding meetings every other week, and some only once per month. What happened? The sad part is that the explaination I seem to get most of the time is that it's too taxing on adults to meet every week. At the risk of sounding preachy, what the heck is going on? I know we should be thankful for anyone who is willing to step up and help, but come on? Is it now an hour every other week? Does anyone else see this developing? And am just too much of a hump? Mark

Eamonn, Despite my pride that some of the guys with whom I worked have put their knowledge to work and have thanked me for my help, I think you are likely right that 30 years from now, few if any will remember that "a budget is a plan. you make a plan to meet a goal. You record the results of your plan so that you may analyze how you are doing trying to meet your goal and make adjustments along the way..." or any of the other 300 pearls of wisdom I dispense regularly. I do hope that one or two of them will remember me fondly after I have started pusing up daisies. I wish I had thought about the idea of serving "tea and biscuits"! But your post kind of makes part of the point I was making. Sure the stuff the guys learn sometimes gets forgotten. But it was the Advancement process that caused you to encounter and take wisdom for your Mr. Cook et al, right? You and I go back a similiar distance on these forums. I have always enjoyed speaking with you here. Your passion for what you do in Scouting is something to which I aspire. And honestly, I am thrilled that you started the thread. It is intensely interesting, so much so that others have been compelled to make 57 comments. The fact is, I think it makes all of us consider how important Advancement is. We might come to different conclusions, but I have appreciated the opportunity to think about my position and consider yours. Even better? It caused Kudo to post the requirments for Queens Scout! It was a real pleasure reading through those. So much so, I copied his post and sent it to our SPL with a not - so - gentle suggestion that as they start making plans for their annual planning meeting in the spring, they think about the posiblity of incorporating some of this into their plan! (Kudo, please accept my apoligies for copying your post!) BTW, Eamonn, it still disappoints me that we couldn't find an opportunity to get together the last couple of years when I have driven Scouts out to Heritage. We'll be back there in 2009, and I'll probably still be offering my chauffer services. If so, I'll try to find a way to hook up with you! Mark

Beavah, (Warning! Long post ahead!) I am only one volunteer among more than a million. So my experience is certainly not empirical evidence. And it pains me to sound like I am bragging, so please try to overlook my vanity. But in my experience as a MB Counselor for Personal Management, Family Life, Communications (which btw, is the required MB that has REALLY become lame!), and Citizen in Community and Nation, I have watched boys take the knowledge they garnered from both their own work, and long conversations with me and use it to positively impact both their own life and others. As of May, our country is defended by an additional 1098 new 2nd Lieutenants, fresh graduates of West Point. One of those dedicated his life to serving our country, at least partly, because of the conversations, debates, and even arguments, he and I had while discussing constitutional rights while working on Nation. Three separate former Scouts have either thanked me in person, or written me a note, telling me how valuable they found just one line that I emphasize while working on Family Life MB ("Marriage is less about finding the right partner than it is about being the right partner"). And, although I have not worked with anyone old enough to have children yet who had to complete the new requirement to discuss the importance of fathers, I have seen a number of boys who have appeared to consider this seriously during and after our discussion. And just last month I had a former Scout hand write a letter telling me that he heard almost the exact same thing during his first real job orientation as he heard from me during our conversations working on Personal Management (1 - Make a plan for every dollar you have, and 2 - Get into the retirement program the very first day you can). It was he who called our MB sessions tedious in his letter. Yet he spent a page and a half thanking me for taking so much time helping him prepare for his adult financial life. While reviewing this post to this point, it strikes me that there is often a big difference in the boys I counsel compared to what it appears many of the other folks on this forum counsel. I have yet to work on Personal Management with a boy younger than 15. 14 - 15 is the common age for our guys to start Family Life. We try to do a cycle of the citizenship badges so that 7th graders work on Community, 8th graders work on Nation, and 10th graders work on World. These are the grades in our school district that each of these topics is covered at school and my work as a MB Counselor augments the schoolwork. Communications tends to be left for last, right at the end of the push for Eagle. Probably because I give off signals that I think it is a lame MB. But in our Troop, we tend to have older guys working on these kinds of MBs. And they make Eagle much later than it seems many of other poster's kids make it. Our youngest Eagle in the last 14 years was just past his 17th birthday on his BoR. Because our guys seem to be older, I think they have a much deeper appreciation for what we discuss. Sure, that doesn't mean it's exciting for them. But they appreciate it more, I think. Now please understand, I am not special. Sure, I know some people could counsel Personal Management, limit it to an hour, and sign off on another MB feeling that a cursory exposure to the (mostly) valuable information is good enough. And sure, maybe the 5 or so hours each guy spends with me are more than it needs to be. But I know in my heart that I add value. And many of the guys who admit they thought I was tough and tedious now believe I do, too. Without the advancement program, I wouldn't have any formal reason to have been an influence on these guys. Nor would a large percentage of other Scoutmasters, ASMs, and MB Counselors. Did I change the world because of the Advancement Method? If I did, only by a minute amount. But if a million of us changed the world just a minute amount, think of the good we would have done. Although your point about kids craving skill attainment and such is true, I disagree that most of the things we hope to teach Scouts would be pursued by them on their own. Sure, a couple guys who have had an interest in politics while they were teens might study the information in the citizenship badges, or the couple of guys who are destined to become Wildlife officers could well find a way to learn how to find evidence of 10 wild animals on their own. But a small percentage. However, I have come across a significantly large number of people who have told me they developed their interest in the career they are now in because of work on a MB in Scouting, including my wife, who was only a Girl Scout for a few years, yet during that time had a field trip to the local hospital where she encountered an x-ray machine. She is unabashed talking about how just a small period of her life as an adolescent affected her adult life so drastically. Again, please excuse my vanity. I hate when I sound like that. But my point is that it can't be just me that is a valuable influence on teenagers' life. And if there are mnay others like me, and we are provided with this vehicle of advancement in order to positively affect young men's lifes, I just can't imagine wanting to discard it. Mark

Eamonn says - "Yes I said do away with advancement!!" The Advancement Chairman in me must ask... What? And put me out of a job?!?!?! Now, seriously, There are so many wonderful things that happen because of, or through using the Advancement Method. I think it would be a terrible shame to elliminate Advancement, or to change it significantly from the model as it stands now. At least a couple of the other Methods - Out Door Program, Patrol Method, Adult Association - rely heavily on a young man desiring advancement. Without Advancement, why would any Scout sit through tedious conversations with MB Counselors to help them develop a sense for personal management, or why it is fathers are important in a family? Or why some people feel the civic duty strongly enough that they willingly put on our country's uniform and risk their life? Or why the most important hard skill a Scout will learn in Scouting may be 1st aid? Why would any kid want to do that? I think I understand your point, Eamonn. Advancement might be one of the obstacles keeping hoards of boys from wanting to stay with Scouting. I'm not so sure I agree with that, but I can see your rationale. And knowing you have had much experience at the District and Council levels, I am sure you are in tune with the numbers game - the need for Districts and councils to keep their rolls elevated. But I have a different spin. I much prefer to think that the advancement method helps keep those boys who really want to be here - the ones that share our Goals, even if they don't know it - from wondering off to some other activity. Sure, Advancement is an obstacle. And some boys don't get the chance to see the obstacle as an opportunity. Often that is because adults make the Method into someting it was not intended to be. I like OGE's comment. Maybe it isn't Advancement we should get rid of. Maybe it should be those of us who mis-apply the Method? I feel your frustration, Eamonn. On a more localized level, we are feeling it in our unit. But that's when it becomes my job as Advancement Chair to make sure the program is doing what it is intended to do - Develop young men of good character. Mark

ASM915, Congratulations! That makes our Troop's 50 years seem like nothing! Buckeye Council? Do you know a Campmaster from Manatoc named Jim Taylor? He was a salesman to my company and to this day, he's one of the only salesmen I ever excepted a lunch invite from. One of the greatest Scouters I ever met. I hope you've had the chance to get to know him, too! Again, contratulations! Mark

Dan, Congratulations! And you do deserve congratulations, along with the new Eagle and his parents. What you are feeling is something I have felt numerous times during my opportunity to be in Scouting. It's a feeling kind of like a shudder and a warm glow all rolled into one. And it doesn't just happen to me during Courts of Honor for guys I have a special affinity to. It happens whenever one of them give me reason to be proud to have been part of their life. I've tried to put this feeling into words, and the best I have come up with is to express how much more I have gotten from Scouting than I have ever put into it. I don't think it does my pride justice, but it's the closest I've come so far. I've been fortunate enough to meet, mentor, and become friends with a West Point Graduate, a State Department official, a graphic artist now working for Nintendo, a Department of Natural Resources Wildlife Management Officer, and plenty of other guys. But the two I have become most proud of are a guy who is teaching history and coaching wrestling at a local junior high despite the fact he is blind, and a young man who has earned a scholarship to a very prestegious Jesuit college despite a huge learning disability. But all of these guys, and a decent number more, including my two sons, have made my 14 years in Scouting a path lined in gold memories. Thinking back, I can hardly remember the rough times I have had while serving. It truly has been an honor to be a part of so many quality young mens' lives. I meant it - You have every right to be congratulated! But now, keep going! Best wishes, Mark

LongHaul, Man, what an interesting perspective! You've made me try to establish in my mind who I meant by you. In hindsight, I guess I propably didn't have a specific person im mind. As I think about it now, I guess I meant the adult leadership trying to meet the Aims of Scouting. But you are right, I threw that out there without much thought as to who I meant. If I can take another crack at it, I'd like to stick with my original comment, but add that if current leadership has no clue about the real Aims of Scouting, or no interest in meeting them, then they need to be re-educated or replaced. Details are are too sketchy for me to say this about nw's adult leadership, but some of the backround that he or she (I'm sorry, I couldn't pick up on which) describes for them sound very similiar to a number of very prominent leaders in our District. Older, been there forever it seems, 9 or more knots above the pocket, always with an "expert" opinion to throw out. But they often seem to miss the point of the program, to me. It seems more important to them to be seen as the perfect leader than to mentor the Scouts to whom they owe service. I struggle mightily biting my tongue sometimes. I'd like to assume it is ignorance. I'm afraid it is not. If there is a similiarity between the folks in my District and the leaders in nw's Troop, in my opinion, the future is unlikely to see the Scouts in your Troop getting the program to which they are entitled. Mark

I can hear my father answering this question: "Back in my day, we whould have tied them all together around a tree until we were convinced that they could get along for good." Or - "What those guys need is a swift kick in the arse." Or even - "Well fellow Scouters, why don't we adults take a hike and find out how this got resolved when we get back." Now I'm not going to say these are great solutions, and certainly are inappropriate for today's world. But in the few cases we've had situations like this in our Troop, I kind of wish it were my dad who was the Scoutmaster. Ignoring those options, I think the choice depends on the end results you want to get. If you want the behavior to end, I like Ed's method. If you want the boys to figure out how to make it end, I like Barry's concept. Good luck to you! Mark

Great response, Lisa! We have had two boys in our Troop with whom we have these same kinds of issues. One boy has completed all his tangible requirements for Eagle. However, his participation and his effort in his Position of Responsibility have been VERY questionable. As we tried to come up with how the Scoutmaster could deal with this at the SM Conference, the core adult leadership all concluded we did a really poor job of making sure this Scout helped develop, understood, and followed through on the expectations for his position. In this case, at his SM Conference and BoR for Life, expectations were described. We did very little to include this young man in the development. We did what we often complain our youth leaders do - The nuclear bomb button method. We announced the expectations to this Scout, and then did practically nothing to make sure he bought in, did nothing to monitor his progress, and did nothing along the way to help him make corrections as he got himself off course. Kind of like pushing the button for the nuclear bomb and waiting to see what happens. When he approached Eagle, we still had the same problems with the Scout we had at Life. However, we had no more time to allow him to get things right. The SM signed him off, and the BoR will likely do the same. This could be my saddest time in Scouting, mostly because I feel we failed this guy. That is not to say that he doesn't share some responsibility, too. At 17, he's old enough to interpret the messages he was given while finishing Life rank and make his adjustments, and he didn't. But we did a poor job, and I believe, had we done better, this young man would have actually met the Goals of Scouting. So, now we are faced with a Scout who is very similar to the guy above, and is ready for his SM conference and BoR for Life. His issues are more Scout Spirit related, but we have the same situation. At a more informal SM conference during a campout, the SM and this boy discussed that his Scout Spirit was not acceptable, and that a number of expectations still need to be met before the SM would sign this off for Life. The boy complained that he was being held to a different standard than others before him, and even though the Scout above's issue was a Position of Responsibility, and his was Scout Spirit, the same slack the first got should be extended to him. Luckily, we have the time to fix our mistake with this guy. So he will most likely be getting a pass at Life. But along with that will come a written narrative of the expectations he will need to demonstrate in order for all of us to recognize that his Scout Spirit is where we believe an Eagle Scout's should be. In the 12 year history of the Troop since I have been involved, we've never had these kinds of issues. The older guys always seemed to be able to lead by example and the younger guys modeled the type of behavior and attitude that Scouting has a right to expect from its members. Somewhere along the line, we adults allowed ourselves to go on autopilot and just assume this would continue forever. We've blundered tremendously. Now we are going to have to fix it. In doing so, I suspect we might have a couple of guys who will end up with an Eagle badge on their chest but not one in their heart. I feel terrible about that. I feel bad we did not meet the Aims with a couple of guys, and I feel bad because I can't shake this belief that I have a responsibility to protect the integrity of the rank of Eagle Scout. But over the next year or so, we have a great opportunity to fix things. We have four guys who are likely going to get to Eagle in the next year or so. Two are no problem, and the other two I'm not proud to say that they will get there too, but they likely will. After that, we have a big gap in our membership. We can start with the younger guys now working with them to develop expectations and methods to monitor and redirect them if needed. I think we will get back to the high expectations we had always had until recently. Mark

I know that in our Council the person who certify others as Climbing Instructors and Climbing Merit Badge counselors must attend National Camp School. He has the title Climbing Director. In our Council, Council pays for camp registration, and the person attending pays expenses. Mark

I used to believe very strongly that no boy should become an Eagle Scout until he is older (16 seemed like a good age, to me, but I would have been flexible). My stance has softened, but I will not let go of my believe that with very few exceptions, a boy is better off earning Eagle later in his Scouting career than earlier. I believe this because I have seen quite often the difference in levels of appreciation that younger Eagles and older Eagles have for the program. And in my experience, very few young Eagles EVER understand what the purpose of Scouting is, even years after they recieve their award. I'd say easily 80% - 85% of the guys who are 16 - 17 - 18 years old when they make Eagle do understand. Along with that belief, I have come to understand that it an absolute farce to believe or to promote the idea that a Scout cannot get the most out of Scouting unless he becomes an Eagle Scout. That is hogwash. We have two boys who graduated out of our Troop at 18 who are the most remarkable young men I have known. Neither made Eagle Scout (1 Life and 1 Star). One of them, the Life Scout, went to 100% of the events and service projects our Troop did while he was there. As a senior in college now, I have seen him drive 7 hours to come home to help on a current Scout's Eagle project. I have seen him drive that same amount back home to attend the Eagle ceremony of the "little brother" he mentored while a Troop Guide, then drive back again over night to be at school for a service project a club he was involved in was doing the next day. This guy is never going to wear an Eagle badge. However, in my mind, he IS an Eagle Scout. I have told Hops the same thing. They both got it. They both benefitted by the Aims and Methods of Scouting to become the best Scouts they could be. Not being recognized as an Eagle Scout is not a failure. Being recognized as a young man of character, a trusted friend, and a fine example of what Scouting helps produce is success. I am proud to know the two guys from our Troop who did not make Eagle Scout. I am proud to know Hops. And I am proud to serve young men in the hope they will become just like these guys, whether or not they make Eagle Scout. On the other side of the page, I do have to say, and I have also said this to Hops, that despite what he knows to be true that not making Eagle is not failure, during his time he will regret not making Eagle Scout. We have an ASM who sounds like he was very similiar to Hops - participated in so many activites, became quite the outdoorsman, is a tremendous resource for the guys in our Troop, and is a tremendous role model for me and every boy with whom he has contact. But he didn't make Eagle, either. Was having too much fun, got serious about a girl (now his wife!), felt too much obligation to his leadership role in his Troop to take the time to work on Eagle. He is both proud of what he has accomplished in Scouting, and also regrets not making more of an effort. I've heard similiar stories before. My point is that you can be a successful Scout, get all of the right things out of the program, without making Eagle Scout. And if so, you should be proud. But just like you can score a 95% on a test and still be disapointed you didn't score 100%, you can still have regrets. I have lots of regrets in my life. most are trivial, especially now. But there are a few, that even as proud of the man I am, I wish I had done better at some things. I think we all have regrets. I suspect if we don't, we didn't have any goals. That reminds me of Teddy Roosevelt's line about at least failing while daring greatly. Oh, my! Talk about a stream of conscienceness! Hops, be proud of who you are. don't let anyone else define what success for you should be. I KNOW you'll be fine. Mark

Barry - Great comment about your guys efforts at summer camp! A few years back, my youngest son was ASPL. It was his responsiblity to arrange for a meeting area for the PLC that was supposed to happen in July. He never got it done. The SM was all over him, telling him that if he and the SPL couldn''t follow through to make the normal PLC happen, then they would have to have the PLC at summer camp, which would have been a huge downer for these guys late in the day after spending hours on the lake kayaking, playing Capture the Flag, etc. My son let a few of his buddies know that he had no intention of participating in a PLC at summer camp, and knew exactly how he was going to handle the SM if the idea came up. On Wednsday night, the SM asked the bugler to sound off, and his voice could be heard through the camp calling the PLC. All of the PLC assembled, except for my son. The SM kept calling his name, with no response. Finally, after about the fourth call, a teen age voice came from the area where the youth Leadership Corps. were tenting: "I''M ON VACATION!" Our SM often uses this line when camping and the Scouts seem to want to abandon their duties and have the SM (or other adult) to take over. I guess no one in the camp knew what to do. Some laughed, others got deathly quiet, expecting hell to break loose. It became the catch phrase of the rest of the week, and for the balance of my son''s Scouting career. It was a major theme during his Eagle CoH, and even now, when he visits with the Troop, the SM asks him how his vacation is going. As for our Troop, elctions are held in early March and early Sept. Our two major events are summer camp, which is in August, and a father - son / WEBELOs event in late Feb. Both events are followed very closely by one of our two CoHs for the year. Elections and training are held right after the two big events, and "installation" ceremonies are done at the CoH. Philmont0406 mentioned one of the stresses that exist with electing new officers every six months, and he is right that it is a pain. We considered trying to get the guys to change to a year cyle, but then realized that the purpose of the leadership opportunity was not so much to have things run smoothly for as long as possible, but to give guys the chance to be challenged, have new experiences, get new opportunities to be successful, and / or learn from the less than perfect experiences. We lament the changing of the gaurd every 6 months - It''s really hard on the adults - but we also have seen way more times than not that guys are happy to have accomplished the goals they developed with the SM and their "boss" (the SPL for PLs, the ASPL for QM, Hist., etc.), and are happy to take on something new. Good luck as you and your boys figure out what works best for you. Mark

Our Troop now boasts two adults who are the Climbing Instructors for the Council. So now we do things by the book (and that is a good thing). However, a long time ago, well before Climb On Safely and Topping out, we used to make a signal tower every year. It served three purposes - A pioneering project, A tool to help us spot open parking spaces while our Troop directed traffic for our CO''s festival, and as a publicity / recruting tool to show the parish, and the boys in the parish, something cool we do. The last year we did this, we made the best signal tower in history. OK, that might be a bit of hyperbole, but hopefully, you get my point. At any rate, the thing was amazingly well built. The boys did a terrific job on it. As we started taking it down, all of the relatively minor stuff was done, and the guys went to take a quick break. Us adults decided to handle the big stuff while the boys were away, just in case. Although I believe any of the adults there would have recognized the danger of the next move if a boy tried it, and would never have allowed a boy to do this, we had one adult, working from the bottom, going up a ladder, cutting all of the lashings of the main cross members. He was at the top of the ladder, @ 12 feet high, when someone looked up just as he cut the last lashing supporting the structure. I have no clue how he thought the sides were going to stand by themselves, but just as one guy looked, the guy on the ladder yelled. The timbers all fell backwards, and his ladder litterally looked like it was balanced in mid air for a few seconds. We watched as he tried to climb down the ladder as it started to fall, probably getting down a couple or three steps. But he probably hit the ground from 8 - 10 feet. Considering all of the possiblities, he got away with only minor injuries - A broken ankle, a couple of broken ribs, and a punctured lung. But we learned a powerful lesson that day. Actually, a couple. First, as soon as Climb On Safely was introduced, our Troop led the way in becoming trained. We have the two Instructors, 6 certified adult leaders, and numerous boys who have been through all of the same training, but cannot be certified because of their age. Second, we all learned that every person involved in an activity deserves the same dillegence. I swear to you that had a boy been up there, we would never have let him get that far. But because it was an adult, we let down our guard. We intend for THAT never to happen again. And third and fourth, we found out what values youth leadership and 1st aid training are, as the then Assistant Senior Patrol Leader was remarkable taking charge as we administered 1st aid. It wasn''t my ankle or ribs or lung, so maybe this is easy for me to say. But in the long run, we got a lot out of that accident. But I can assure you that one of the things we would never do now is to allow anyone over shoulder height not to be harnessed. We still do signal towers, and we do a number of climbing and rapelling events every year. Is there still danger? Absolutely. Have we done everything we can to mitigate the possiblity of harm while we do a dangerous activity? You bet. And EVERYONE in our Troop, including adults, uses the buddy system for practically everything now. We all know we are responsible for everyone, but knowing that you are responsible for SOMEONE just seems more powerful. Mark

Oak Tree: What an unbelievably astute comment. You are dead right. (IMVHO) Lisabob: An even better response! You also are exactly right (IMVHO). Although I believe most anyone who might actually know me locally here could easily figure out who mk9750 is, I feel a sense of security in the anonimity of these forums. I can assure you I have never lied here, nor do I believe the vast majority here have either. But it is comforting to know that I can be brutally honest here without fear of hurting the feelings of someone I care about very much, which can happen if I express my ideas to those with whom I work in our Troop and in our District. Might I suggest that we all consider Lisabob''s suggestion that we all demonstrate common courtesy, while still using this tool to float those ideas, let them get beat up a little bit, and maybe even shot down, so that we go back to our reality and offer the best program we can? And may I suggest that we all understand the difference Oak Tree points out in virtual reality here and real reality out there? Mark

I think when we see a description of a problem on these forums, without a tremendous amount of detail, we each tend to fill in the nooks and crannies with our own assumptions and perceptions. So my response is based on perceptions I have after seeing similiar issues in our Troop. Although I agree that some boys are not destined to stay in Scouting, were that same discussion to happen at a Troop committee meeting in our Troop, my first assumption would be that the Patrol Leader (under the guidance of a Troop Guide) did a poor job in developing the duty roster and explaining the reasons for the division of labor. Without the frame of reference of knowing that unless I go get firewood, we won''t eat tonight, or without someone cleaning the latrine, I might have to sit in a spider web, why would a boy willingly accept that he has to do any of the work? In our Troop, Patrol meetings are run using agendas, just like the Troop meeting, the PLC, and the adult committee meeting. One of the standing items on a Patrol Meeting agenda is developing a duty roster two weeks before a campout (effectively, it is two and a half weeks before the campout). This does a number things. 1st, it makes the PL have a stake in knowing who is coming, so he ends doing most of the follow up with Scouts who delay signing up for an event. Second, during our in house JLT, we emphasize that the biggest value of a duty roster from the stand point of the PL isn''t getting work done, but demonstrating to the boys in his Patrol that each and every member of the Patrol is needed at events. If Joey sees that his Patrol mates have to double up doing a task, our hope is that he would not put his buddies through that if he could help it. We think our attendance at events is higher because guys know they are needed. And lastly, we ask our PLs for the younger Patrols to help take some responsiblity for their Patrol members'' advancement status. Each month, we give the PL a sheet with the advancement status of each Scout. If the PL sees that Tommy needs to build a fire and cook a meal on it, the PL is likely going to ask Tommy if he can put Tommy''s name in that space on the duty roster. If a Scout, without an understanding of how to lead using a collaborative method, simply ordered a new Scout to scrub the latrine, without helping him understand why (and probably showing him how, too), it would be no wonder that a new Scout would run, not walk, out fo the Troop. But if the Patrol Leader takes the time to explain why a job needs done, demonstrates that he is being fair in how he delegates the tasks, and shows that his delegation is based on something that is a benefit for the Scout (and not just advancement!), then a reasonable person, even an 11 year old, will likely understand and pitch in. Good luck! Leading peers is one of the toughest jobs on the planet. Training youth to learn to lead is a difficult, yet tremendously rewarding effort. Mark

Great question, and an important decision, I think. For myself, my second and youngest son earned Eagle and turned 18 this past spring. I am without a son in Scouting now, and have been pondering my role in the Troop. I am the Troop''s advancement chair, and frankly, I feel I add a lot of value in that job, particularly in Boards of Review. I have asked to have a parent of a younger Scout assist me, and if one offers to help, I plan to turn the chairman''s job over, and offer to help out at BoRs. I also counsel three MBs, and for two, Personal Management and Family Life, I also believe I have provided many Scouts with a good basis to start their adult lives. I can''t imagine giving that up. Over the last couple of years, I have helped the District out as the unofficial "financial planner" of the District events. I assist the adults who take on running events like Klondike and Webelos Woods, and help them develop a budget, and generally act as a liason between volunteers who run events for the first time and the professional staff, who often have more responsiblity than allows them to work patiently with rookie event chairs. As EagleDad talked about, our District Chairman, District Commisioner, and DE all seemed to have a note on their calender for when my son turned 18. I was accosted with requests to take over a couple different responsiblities. Unit Commisioner was the one area that I saw was desperately needing some help. We have units who don''t have a UC, UCs who have four and five units, and at least a couple of UCs who have no business being Unit Commisioners at all. So that is my current calling. I''ve been trained, and just assisted at my first Cub Round Up night since I was a Cubmaster. BTW, I agree that Cubmaster could well be the best job in Scouting. As it came close to the time when I would no longer have a child in the program, I thought about what direction I would head. I was guided by the same question that caused me to say yes when I first filled out an adulr application - "If not me, then who?" There are PLENTY of people, even right in my District, who know more about Scouting than I ever will. But I don''t believe anyone exceeds the passion I still have for this "game with a purpose", and because of that, I don''t expect I will ever not be busy on Tuesday nights... Or Wednesdays, or whatever night I am needed. If you still have the passion you had when you were doing it just for your son, then please find a job you enjoy and do it. We need all the help we can get. Mark

Great question, and an important decision, I think. For myself, my second and youngest son earned Eagle and turned 18 this past spring. I am without a son in Scouting now, and have been pondering my role in the Troop. I am the Troop''s advancement chair, and frankly, I feel I add a lot of value in that job, particularly in Boards of Review. I have asked to have a parent of a younger Scout assist me, and if one offers to help, I plan to turn the chairman''s job over, and offer to help out at BoRs. I also counsel three MBs, and for two, Personal Management and Family Life, I also believe I have provided many Scouts with a good basis to start their adult lives. I can''t imagine giving that up. Over the last couple of years, I have helped the District out as the unofficial "financial planner" of the District events. I assist the adults who take on running events like Klondike and Webelos Woods, and help them develop a budget, and generally act as a liason between volunteers who run events for the first time and the professional staff, who often have more responsiblity than allows them to work patiently with rookie event chairs. As EagleDad talked about, our District Chairman, District Commisioner, and DE all seemed to have a note on their calender for when my son turned 18. I was accosted with requests to take over a couple different responsiblities. Unit Commisioner was the one area that I saw was desperately needing some help. We have units who don''t have a UC, UCs who have four and five units, and at least a couple of UCs who have no business being Unit Commisioners at all. So that is my current calling. I''ve been trained, and just assisted at my first Cub Round Up night since I was a Cubmaster. BTW, I agree that Cubmaster could well be the best job in Scouting. As it came close to the time when I would no longer have a child in the program, I thought about what direction I would head. I was guided by the same question that caused me to say yes when I first filled out an adulr application - "If not me, then who?" There are PLENTY of people, even right in my District, who know more about Scouting than I ever will. But I don''t believe anyone exceeds the passion I still have for this "game with a purpose", and because of that, I don''t expect I will ever not be busy on Tuesday nights... Or Wednesdays, or whatever night I am needed. If you still have the passion you had when you were doing it just for your son, then please find a job you enjoy and do it. We need all the help we can get. Mark

At District events, we solved this problem by having a separate event code for the Webelos. At Klondike, Webelos sign up for Webelos Winter Challenge. They use the cabins, do not tent with Troops. They follow their Big Brother Troop throughout the day. they participate separately in the activites that are appropriate for them - They can build fires, tie knots, etc. They have associated events for areas they cannot participate in - They shoot BB guns while Boy Scouts shoot Muzzle Loaders (not at the same time. The Webelos go through a safety class while the Boy Scouts shoot, then the Webelos shoot BB guns). The Troops feed the Webelos, and what we've seen is the better Troops (in our opinion) tend to have the Webelos actively helping with the cooking. There is a separate Klondike sled race for the Webelos, and they compete throughout the day separately from the Troops for prizes appropriate to their age and Scouting level. This is a recent change for us, after we were told that Cubs may not compete with Boy Scouts. We were never told they could not camp with a Troop, or that they couldn't particpate with Boy Scouts, but that they could not compete with older boys. That restriction seems reasonable, and we have made what we all (including our Scout Executive) feel are reasonable accomodations to prevent this, while still providing the value that comes from Webelos spending time and whetting their appetites for what is ahead of them in Boy Scouts. Mark

Yes, it would be a dumb requirment also, but I would require it if National wrote it. It doesn't say "Mark's Scouting Program" on any of the literature. While typing this, I came to realize something. One could make the arguement (weak, admittedly, but realistic) that there is value in a requirement for a Scout to bring the Scoutmaster coffee. It demonstrates an attitude of service. It demonstrates courteousness and helpfulness. And it might also lead to a Scout learning how to make coffee. I remember OGE or EagleDad stating a long time back that the adults in their Troop challenge the Troop to defend questionable activites based on the Scout Oath, Law, Aims and Methods, and that the boys had the right to challenge the adult leaders in the same manner (this was a couple of years back, so if I have the wrong author, or am misrepresenting the idea, I truly apoligize). It seems to me, that even if it were weak, this could be defended. Look - Please understand that I am not in any way supporting the requirment to try to recriut another boy. I think the requirement was added to by National to be self serving, and I really don't see much in the way of helping a Scout, who is trying to advance, meet the Aims of Scouting. But it isn't illegal, immoral, and I don't have the right to change the requirments, so I'm going to do my job and require it of the boys I serve. Mark

I have a bit of a different take. In previous instances, when the BSA changed the requirments for certain ranks (Eagle now requiring Personal fitness is on that comes to mind), they provided a caveat that anyone already working on the advancement could use the old or the new requirements, but not a combination of both. Usually, there was a time frame involved, but the Scout had the choice. If a boy bought a then - current book without the requirement, and then started to work on 1st Class immediately, he should be able to do so under the old requirments. The first campout or other Troop or Patrol event that he attends begins his work toward 1st Class - The requirment asking him to participate in 10 Troop or Patrol events. We came to this solution because we had boys who joined at the same time but, but some received their handbooks from their Pack, purchased months before they crossed, while others bought their books immediately after joining or crossing. Usually I am the S.O.B. when it comes to asking kids to meet the requirements. But this one was just too obvious for me to make an issue of. We have been ignoring the requirement for anyone who has the old book, and any boy who joined or crossed at roughly the same time. We have one boy who joined later and has made 1st Class with the new book, and he was required to fulfill the requirment. Editorial comment - It really is a dumb requirment, but it is a requirment. Mark