mk9750

I've got a lot of answers to send. I hope I don't miss anyone. Ron, I think again I have not been clear. I did not understand you to say that you want to have the committee do everything. I was taking a shot (again) at the training I got. It was aimed at what I got on Saturday, not at you. EagleDad, I've spent most of my life believing fervently a saying my dad repeated all the time: "All that is necesary for the triumph of evil is that good men to nothing". I know that it's overly dramatic to call this training evil. But the point is I think at some level, even if below the surface, I know I need to do something - But - I don't want to , I don't want to, I don't want to!. It seems like I do very well keeping my head down in the fox hole of my own little unit, doing what I can for it. Every time I stick my head up and sniff around District / Council stuff, I get disheartened. If asked, I'll probably say yes. But I don't think I'm going to go chasing anything down. Eammon, Yes, this was with the jigsaw puzzle. And quite frankly, I can envision the training being valuable. There are lot's of good info here, and, although we don't have titles like these on our committee, we do fulfill all of these functions (except Chaplain). Many of the positions described in the training are actually held by numerous people in our Troop, who would rather work their hearts out on one small aspect of a task than do an entire year's worth of a job. Dividing the work up like we do has tended to prevent overzelous parents from unsurping the boys' responsibilites, too. But I believe that during the Trianing I went through this Saturday, I never once heard anything like "This position supports the QM (or Chaplain Aide, or Scribe)". What I think I heard was people suggesting that it was more important that the Committee keep control over what was going on in the Troop. As to the people involved, I've got to also say that these are some of the nicest people I have met in Scouting. I truly have no axe to grind with any of them. It is not the personality that is the problem, it's how they approach the program. Two of the three people who ran this training are key staff for this year's woodbadge, as I understand. The Scoutmaster for Woodbadge was not involved in this session, and quite frankly I have a great deal of confidence in her. I have seen the results she has had in the Council JLT course for which she was the SM, particularly with what the staff learned. And perhaps, that's the way this problem goes away at Woodbadge. But I still can't get the thought out of my head of one of these trainers telling me (in different words) that it is sheer madness to allow a boy to be responsible for some of the things we ask of our boys. Bob, I tried like crazy, over the course of 4 committee meetings, to get our folks to do this in house. I just could not get the commitment, so I went when it was being offered to the general population of volunteers. I agree that it would be more effective if some of the activities could be Troop specific. However, I'm not sure that would have fixed this problem. Thanks all for letting me vent! Mark

KS, Not to worry! Anytime someone picks on the west side of Cleveland, it's fine with me! But be gentle about points east! Dave, Fried Egg sandwich, eh? I know my oldest son and I have spent plenty of quality time together making our own. Where to actually buy one? Not so sure I know the answer to that. But they are good! PS, it's in the mail. Mark

Nice job, KS! When we shoot, we always have an assistant range master who appears to st and do nothing. But it is his job to know where everyone is and what they are doing. Guys don't wonder of to tinkle without him knowing it. Works for us. We also don't have the same worry you have. We use a Police Dept. firing range (one of our Eagles built it as an Eagle Project), and I'd bet 98% of the population doesn't even know it exists. So we don't have to do a lot of sharing of the range. FOG, Are you really that smart, or do you have the world's best encyclepedia loaded on your computer? Mark

We've never moved youth leadership out of their home Patrols. If heard and read what you say about the SPL not being in a Patrol when they serve, but this just doesn't make sense to me. Just because they have extra responsiblity doesn't mean they shouldn't hang with the buddies. I can't speak to whether any edicts were made before I got to the Troop, but we've never adressed the issue. Therefore, I suspect that the SPL has always chosen with whom he camps, and that has always been his Patrol mates. I can see a small amount of benefit by seperating him / them. But in addition to the resposnisblity an SPL has, he should still be having fun. IMVHO. Mark

FOG, Actually, I did understand it. I wasn't sure though, and, as is my style, I figured it was my poor communication skills that caused the confusion. Now that we've gone around the entire circle, I think we both understand each other. EagleDad, I was just speaking to our SM about this same thing. On the exterior, I dread the possiblity that I could be drafted. He speaks about complaining that there were no Climbing MB Counselors, and all of a sudden he is in charge of instructing all of the Climbing MB Counselors in the Council. On the other hand, be it Freudian or otherwise, I signed my evaluation with my unit number and phone number. I didn't conscisously ask to be recruited to the training team, but I wonder if at some level I didn't know that could be a result. We'll see. I will tell you that I wonder how much value one person swimming against the tide can be. The 6 - 10 well established people doing the Training in our district and Council are not likely to be affected by one lone voice singing the virtues of a boy run emphasis. I know that it'll never get better if someone doesn't start, but I don't know that I have the will to work through the hassles that would come. I'll keep my mind open, but I just don't see how I can reaaly change things. Mark

FOG, I hoped my point was clearer than maybe it was. It IS a good thing if Scouts are responsible for running the Troop, and if fewer adults are necesary. In your situation, where the secretary would love for the Scribe to handle 99% of the membership issues, in our Troop, the Scribe does about 80%. He maintains the roster and keeps it up to date (from the Scout side). He verifies the information is current on the rechartering paperwork. He checks advancement status agains TroopMaster and makes corrections. He verifies that the parts of Quality Unit the boys are responsible for have been done (for instance, the Scribe used to keep a roster of Boys Life subscribers. Last year's Scribe forgot to teach the new Scribe this, so the new Scribe had to aske each of the boys at recharter time). After he is finished with his work, the CC, the Treasurer and I (advancements) review his work, help him make corrections if necesary, and add the material that the boys aren't responsible for. Some years, this goes very well. This year, it didn't go so smoothly. But it was done mostly by the Scribe and the ASPL, and it was correct and on time in the end. Our secretary has two responsiblities: Keeping notes at the committee meeting and disbursing minutes. What's been interesting about how we do this is that everyone wants to be on the committee: We have 27 Scouts right now. We have a SM corps of 10, and registered committee member roster of 27. With one single parent home, and one family with two boys in the troop, that means we have 37 of 51 parents registered. Each oversees one small part of what the boys do. For instance, one parent's sole responsiblity is to make sure the QM arranges a detail of guys to clean, "Wax" and store all of our kayaks. She did nothing more than metion it to the QM, and 2 weeks later asked if it were done. A week after that, she walked over to the barn where we store stuff with the QM and verified it. Literally, she did nothing more than ask a few questions. Ron, Sorry, I don't think I can answer the question fairly. As I said, we only had one other committee member go. He was saying that it would have been valuable for a couple of our committee, particularly the CC and the treasuer. But they did not attend. My opinion? If you want to set up the Troop so that the committee does everything for the boys, than the training I went to would be helpful. More likely, I suspect the training I went to doesn't reflect what the class really is supposed to reflect. I could see it being beneficial, but not the way it was done in our District. Mark

PF, If I read you right, you're concerned about having to make comments because you are new in your Troop. Do I have that right? If that's the issue, I can see your concern. At least in our Troop, the words of the SM have always been stories about his relationship with the new Eagle. After 5 - 7 years together, our SM always has many great things to say about a new Eagle Scout. Most are funny, some are very inspirational, and all leave the entire audience, but especially the Eagle and his parents, with very warm memories of the boy's career in our Troop. If you're new as SM, you may lack some of this backround, making it tough to develop a few stories. If it were me, I think I'd make a big effort to contact the old SM, some of the Scout's best buddies, maybe people he may have been on staff with at events, anything like that, to get a nice picture of who the boy is as a Scout, then develop a short speech to talk about the boy's Scouting achievements. Over time, I'm sure you'll get to know the guys better as they make their way to Eagle. As you do, you'll develop your own library of stories to pull from to help make the new Eagle's evening even more memorable. Good luck!! Mark

Well, I finally jumped in and did Troop Committee Challenge this weekend. I have been working to get five or six of our core committee members to attend with me, but it ended up being only two of us. Although I did not go with the intend to prove myself right, I now know why I don't hold WoodBadge Trainig in very high regard. I'm sure it is strictly our group of trainers, but I again feel as though the whole traing excersize in our District is "Big Person Scouting" for the "in" people in the District. It really seemed to have little in common with what I have come to know as the Scouting program. For instance, at one point we were split up and formed a committee. We were each assigned responsiblities: CC, Advancement Corrdinator, COR, Equipment Coordinator, Chaplain, Outdoor Activities Coordinator, Sectretary, Treasurer (I think I've got them all). We were asked to evaluate a case study and detrmine what each of us would be responsible for, and how we would fulfill or responsiblity. One of the issues was the need to write thank you notes to a land owner who let our "Troop" use his property to camp. The "official" answer was that the Secretary should do this. When I objected and sugessted that this was a job that a boy could and should handle, the answer was "well, then what would the Secretary do if we gave that job to a boy?" The same thing as far as equipment goes. A stove had been dropped and needed replaced. The "official answer was that the Equipment Coordinator should attempt to repair the stove, and, if it needed replaced, he should submit a request to the committee. Again, I suggested that sounds like the job of the QM, and I was told that if the QM was going to do all the work, we woulnd't need adults. There was a big discussion about Troop Handbooks. Not a discussion as to whether they are valuable or not, as we have discussed here, but a discussion about how it's important for the boys to know what rules the adults want followed. How's that for a boy run program? My problem with WoodBadge in our Council is that it is run by this same group of people. I see it as promulgating more of the good ole' boy network, without really teaching people how to help boys with their program. I'm sure I sound frustrated, and that's because I am. I spent three and a half hours of my time on Saturday (time I was scheduled to spend working with three guys on Personal Managment Merit Badge) listening to blow hards self grandize about how vital our role as adults is. OK, venting done. Mark

FOG, Up until a year or so ago, I would have disagreed with you. BadgeBond, sold at our Scout Shoppe, made placing patches on a uniform properly easy so that boys learning to sew could get it right. The only patches that ever seemed to need removed and replaced (at least in my family) werer rank badges, and the new one always covered the old. Now that I have an 18 year old son, who no longer wears a rank badge, his glue stained shirt isn't wearable. I heard him using some very un-Scoutlike language down in the basement before the last Eagle COH when he couldn't make his shirt presentable. As to Ebay, I'm sure the bargains are good. In my Troop, we have started a uniform bank were old, usually too small, uniforms are donated. Whenever a Scout needs a new uniform, if cost is a problem, he trades in. We are fortunate to be somewhat affluent, so we get more uniforms donated than traded in. Our boys have just aksed us to find a way to share our bank with other Troops in the area. They were quite dismayed at how few other Troops even bothered with uniforms at Klondike. Let me know what worked to get the glue out. My son would rather spend the $38.50 on pizza at college than a new Scout shirt, if he can. Mark

Eammon, I am in a position to help Dave unload, and just sent him a message offering to do so. Although he isn't going to be in the same Council as I am in, he'll be about 15 minutes away. I am looking forward to getting together with him and meeting him in person. I also hope I can be of some help finding his way around. Cleveland's a pretty simple city to navigate in, so I'm sure an Eagle Scout won't have any problem. But I'd like to think I could still be of service. KS, Dave is moving to the Greater Clevleland Council in Ohio. Sorry you missed the announcements in Dec. - Jan. What is interesting, though, is that, reading between the lines, it sounds like you're getting close to retiring. do I read you right? If so, congratulations! Mark

Zahanda, Here! Here! (or is it Hear ! Hear!? I just don't know) And not just for this discussion. Any time people are arguing like this, change a few of the words, and then copy and paste your post. It will be appropriate almost every time. And BTW, Bob is right on this one, but it's likely I can't really prove it for another 30 - 60 years. I'll let everyone know when I can prove it what I find out. Mark

FOG, You stole my thunder on perhaps the best line I have ever thought up to use in these forums. But that won't stop me... WHEELER, You must be a real gem on a date! Mark

Eagle74 (I started to contract that to '74, but it just seemed almost a sin), We will be at Haliburton the week after your Troop. We have noticed the same thing about kids crossing now and their parents. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that it is possible my view is different now that my sons are older. I know it takes more and more effort every year to deal happily with the new Scouts until they've acclimated to Troop life. But this might not be their problem, it might be mine. Still, I have noticed exactly what you are talking about... We also alternate every other year. Two very different environments, and we think it's great. Even years are Haliburton, where whatever structure exists we create, and odd years are at a dining hall calp that has a very structured program. I know it's not right to project for everyone, but this sure works well for us. Have fun! Mark

Our Klondike was held a few weeks ago, and the temperature the two nights out was +4 and -2F. A discussion among some of the more, how should I say, weenie adults leaders took place, where it was stated that there is a rule that says if the temperature, real or wilnd chill, drops to or below -25F, we were to shut down the event and send everyone home. No one had a G2SS with them, so we couldn't verify it there. When I said that I couldn't remember it being there, it was then stated that it was a National Camp School rule. I still think that someone was making this up, but I also know enough to know I don't know everything. Anyone have any insight? Mark

I also agree with Bob. Planning and giving leadership to a project is easier if the candidate can be on site and managing the project, but in no way is it required. Quite the contrary, were I to sit on the young man's Eagle Board of Review, it is likely I would find extra reason to admire the job he did if he could manage it from off site. One of our Eagle Scout's projects was done in three stages. The biggest part of the project was done on a Saturday while he was in a car riding to Massachusetts for his grandfather's funeral. His cell phone bill was quite high, but he directed 80% of the projected, and delegated the rest of the management to another Scout. It came off famously. Encourage your Scout to see if he can make this work. He may suprise himself. Mark

I celebrated the 24th anniversary of my 21 birthday 9 days ago. My youngest son wanted to try to make a cherry pie in the dutch oven for my birthday. The edges were so black, he gave me $10.00 and asked me to go to Dairy Queen and get an ice cream cake. For those of us that enjoy the cherry filling more than the crust, the pie / ice cream cake combination was great! Mark

You know, when I have a question or a complaint about any of the suppliers I use at work, more often than not I either can't get a response, or it's some kind of B.S. story that I just know has no basis in reality. It's nice to see that somewhere, not only can I get a straight answer about a problem I am experiencing, without excuses, but I can get the answer without even asking the question! I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that this is a SCOUTING forum? Thanks Terry! I thought I had been doing something that caused it. Mark

Eagle74, One of the things I have finally allowed to sink into my head while on these forums is that I shouldn't compare other Troops to mine. There is a wide spread of abilities and skills, and just because my Troop does something, it doesn't mean all other Troops can (and visa - versa). But we have taken 1st year Scouts to Haliburton every other year for more than 12 years now (that I know of), and they do very well. It is certainly true that there is no dining hall, latrine structure, or showers, but we've never had a problem with any of the young guys in our Troop going to Canada. I will say your comment about the parents being ready to let their new Scouts go is very astute. This is the one constant problem every year we go. Parents (particularly, but not limited to) moms just can't get comfortable with their little Tommy traveling 500 miles and to a foreign country while being away from home. Quite literally, the hardest task we face every year is convincing parents that their son should go. The payback for this effort once the boy goes? We have NEVER had a kid be home sick at Haliburton. I think there are two reasons for that. The obvious one is that it's such a great place, and everyone in our Troop has blast. But the bigger reason, I think, is that it is 500 miles away from home in another country. When summer camp is close to home, the boys know (as do their parents) that it's only 20 minutes, or an hour, or three hours to go get Tommy and bring him home if he says he's homesick. This just isn't an option for us at Haliburton, and the boys know it. Also, cell phones don't usually get a good signal up there, and the phone at camp is only there for emergencies. So kids don't call home and get worked up about missing stuff. I know it sounds harsh, but putting our Scouts in a position of not knowing they really can't go home has kept homesickness down to zero. If this is your first time up there, possibly your idea of doing the split camps is good. But I'd guess that next time you decide to go, you'll consider taking the entire Troop. I think they all will love it. Bring a good book (or two!), a nice comfortable chair, and enjoy yourself! As much time as there will be to work with, and just plain hang out with your Scouts, there will also be plenty of time to relax. BTW, my son's Patrol won a nice big screened tent at the Klondike auction this past week. They have already dtermined that it will be "cammand central" for their Patrol, with morning breakfast served "on the veranda" and evening card and chess games. these guys are stoled for summer camp at Haliburton 5 months in advance! When are you going? If it's the same week, we should try to get together. Mark

Wheeler, Producing men of the type you desire is not a purpose of the Scouting program. HOWEVER, if you compare the men the Scouting program produces with that of the general population of men in the USA, I think you'd have to agree that men who were Scouts in their youth come closer to your ideal than do the others. Could the BSA help make their youth members even more like your ideal man than they do now? I'm sure they could. But to do so means sacrificing other parts of the program, and other desired results of the program. I think I can speak for the majority of the posters here and say that we are not interested in such a trade off. Mark

Eagle74, Congratulations on a great decision! I promise you you will not be disapointed by Haliburton. It is by far, the most beautiful place that I have been in Scouting. NWScouter is right. The staff at Haliburton is extremely helpful, but you should be prepared to handle almost all of your program yourself. For instance, as you might be aware, Canadian Scouters are not authorized Merit Badge Counselors for the US program. Therefore, if you plan to work on, say, swimming MB, you'll have to bring your own Counselor. they will provide resources to help teach and test boys, but you'll have to have someone from your Troop run this. Second, your Scouts should be proficient at canoeing. When you arrive, your Troop and all of its gear will be transported via pontoon boat to your site. You'll then be boated back to the main area and be issued canoes for your Troop. To get anywhere in the camp, you'll need to canoe. Most trips to the trading post and "H" dock (where swimiing programs etc. are held) will take 20 - 30 minutes. But by the end of the week, anyone whose skills were weak will definately be proficient. If you have a choice, my suggestion is to try to schedule Bea Crobra Island as your site (the spelling is correct). It truly has the best views, especially in the morning, of all the camp. There are 4 -6 good Patrol campsites on the island, and more than any place I've been, it is easy for Patrols to truly be on their own. If you do, look for the picnic tables on the island. Our Troop donated them and dedicated them to a previous Scoutmast in our Troop who died a few years ago. The boys built them, and I had the dedication plaques etched. The terrain on the island especially, but all over the place, is very rocky. In many places, dirt only is 3 - 6 inches deep. Staking tents and flys can be a problem. There are no latrines in any of the campsites. Each site is provided a clean 55 gallon drum with a lid on it that they are expected to bury. On Bea Crobra, there is one really good place to do this. Pack your food for the week in seperate coolers by day. Use Dry ice to keep things cold, and duct tape them shut until the day before you plan on using the contents. although you can buy ice from the trading post, it is either a 45 minute canoe ride round trip, during which the sun will have had a negetive affect on the ice, or, you'll have to have an adult use a row boat with a motor (which you can rent) go get your ice. However, it just seems to me that motorboating on such a peaceful lake should be a sin. Play it smart, use dry ice. Misquitoes are as part of the experience as are stars and fresh air. Be prepared. Speaking of stars, we always schedule or trip during a new moon. Pick the clearest night, get your guys all out laying on the dock, and watch the sky show. I promise you, if anyone comes back not amazed, you can call me on it. Each campsite has its own swimming hole. the water in the lake is crystal clear. It was just in the last eight years that they started making people purify the water out of the lake before drinking. It problably still doesn't need it, but the point is, that's how clean the water is. You can see the bottom from easlily 8 or 10 feet. But, even in late July, the water is fairly cold. It's very refreshing, but compared to other camp lakes in which I have been, it won't remind you of a bathtub! I can't think of any more right now, but I'm sure you will have a great time. Oh one more thing. Make sure that you have permission slips signed by both parents to take children up to Canada. They will check on that. And have all paperwork (permission slip, birth certificate) divided up by car, not in one binder. Well, so much for my effort to shorten my posts. Have fun!! Mark

(ok, everyone prepare to place their hand over their mouth and giggle softly...) What are BDU pants? I've seen this acronym (I think) in this and other uniform threads, and have hoped that it would get explained before I had to flash my ignorance. Can't wait any longer. As to redesigning the uniform, I personally like the look, though I do feel the poly/cotton shirt would be more accurately refered to as "vapor - lock" fabric. Why do some have such a tough time getting their Troop to wear a complete uniform? Except for cost issues, which can be overcome in a number of ways, I just can't think of a legitimate reason NOT to wear a complete uniform when it is appropriate. To suggest that Troop members won't wear them says to me that it hasn't been made a priority by whoever is viewed as the leaders (in the best Troops, this would be the PLC, in some Troops it would be the adults). Mark

Bob, Of course you are right. My statement does include an assumption that there is a waterfront, and that it includes the capablity to have a boat on it. It further assumes that there is also qualified staff. I've been making an effort at shortening my posts recently (has it been noticable yet?). These are the kinds of things that don't get said when I try to say less. Mark

We only have two basic policies: 1) Must have earned Totin' Chit before a knife can be carried anywhere except in a pack and from the pack to the area where training or testing is taking place. 2) Offenses against safe knife handling rules are met with tempory suspension of the right to carry a knife issued by the Scout's Patrol Leader. As soon as possible after the event, the PL discusses the situation with the PLC and they may decide to remove a corner of the Totin' Chit. Fourth corner removed requires requalification for Totin' Chit. We've never had anyone lose more than his second corner since I've been with the Troop. Mark

Bob, I couldn't agree with you more. I know I fell into that trap the first couple of summer camps for which I was the acting SM. Even bragged at the ensuing CoH that our Troop of 32 (or so) came home with well over 100 merit badges. I would like, however, to temper what you said with a part of what Ed says. He is very right that the best place to earn some MBs is at summer camp. I truly believe that, assuming a qualified MB Counselor, many of the badges Ed lists are better done at summer camp. The one thing I have come to understand, though, is that although summer camp is a great place to earn, say, Small Boat Sailing, earning the badge shouldn't necesarily be the result of the activity at summer camp. If a boy sets that as a goal, then I say "Go for it!". But if it takes a piece of cloth to be the evidence that a boy had a great time because he sailed, then we've probably given the boy the wrong impression of what his camp experience should (or could) be. Just my $0.02. Mark

Luckily, we've never had to cancel an outing for weather, and we've never had to cancel one for lack of adult leadership. A couple of times, outings dreamed up by the PLC that were not planned well had very few boys turn out, and the group of people who were ready to go voted to cancel. These have been great teaching opurtunities. Hasn't happened often, luckily, but it has happened. Mark