mk9750

Bob, Sorry it took so long to respond. Busy the last few days. What part of OGE's reference: "A merit badge counselor can counsel any Scout, including his own sonalthough this is discouraged in order to offer a Scout the chance to meet a diverse group of outstanding adults. its permitted but discouraged. So, it is OK" is not unclear? But the more important issue: It is sad that you chose to comment on that part of my post rather than the important part. You certainly built up my spirit and helped me appreciate all you wisdom. Or not. It is examples like that coming from you rather consistently that made me avoid posting since your return. Even when you are making a valid point, you are usually condescending. Thanks for reminding me why I will not participate any longer. Thanks Bob. Good luck to the rest of you. Mark

I'd like to be able to say that the policy is clear, but apparently, there is at least a little confusion. But as for opinions about the merit of the practice, now THOSE will vary widely. I have mine, too. All of them have value. But here is mine. Our Scoutmaster has a fantastic system and method for doing the the three Citizenship badges. They are interesting, VERY informative, and guys all say they get a lot out of all of them. The SM's son is well past 18, but when he was in the Troop, we discussed the pros and cons of our SM counseling his son. It was the opinion of EVERY SINGLE ADULT involved with our Troop that it would be wrong to deny this Scout the benefit of such a great counselor. All the adults in our Troop seem to feel the same way about the way I counsel Personal Management. And when it was time for my sons to do PM, it was a no brainer they were going to do it with me. My younger son took almost a year to complete the badge because he wasn't accepting the half a$$ed work he was trying to pass of whe doing his "To Do" list and schedule. No one coluld believe that it took MY SON so long to complete the badge. The was no appearance of impropriety. On the other hand, I also counsel Communications and Family Life. I do a pretty good job with the Family Life, and my older son did that one with me, the younger son I sent to someone else. As for Communications, I feel there is nothing special I can provide. So I sent both of my sons to other Counselors. Every Scout is entitled the best experience he can get. If that is with his father (or mother!!!), then not only should it be permitted, but it should almost be required. All in my VERY Humble oppinion! Good luck to you, and welcome to the forums!!! Mark

Here is where I see an obstacle to nirvana on this issue: Because there is no standard for how Patrols are formed, even if an intact Patrol were to attend a Camporee or Klondike, it could be a New Scout Patrol, a regular Patrol, a Venture Patrol, or a mixed age Patrol. Setting up competitions and hoping that everything will sort itself to make the competition fair is next to impossible. When it was our Troop's opportunity to lead the Klondike, we set the competitions up for 1st Class and under, and Star and over. For a Troop to arrange a group of guys under that format makes it very difficult to also promote real PAtrol Method. However, I believe your point is a good one. Perhaps it could be arranged so that only those with the same Patrol patch on their sleeve can participate as a Patrol. Then, if a Patrol of brand new Scouts shows up, a handicap could be applied. I'm not so sure there is a good answer for this, at least not in the "real world". Tough issue. Mark

John in KC, If they add Cooking to the Eagle Required list, I hope the use it to replace Communications. I am a MB Counselor for Communications. They took a mederately valuable MB and did away with most of the worthwhile requirements. I have been considering notifying our Disctrict Advancement Chair that I no longer wish to counsel Communications. I don't mind wasting my time so much. I figure it's an opportunity to get to know a Scout better. But I hate that I am wasting the Scout's time. Mark

I believe Goldwinger is right. Troops and Packs are not groups of themself. They exist only as an arm of their Charter Organization. As such, they assume the tax treatment status of the Charter Organization. If they are tax exempt, so is the Boy Scout Pack or Troop, and the Charter Org. should be able to provide your unit with a tax exempt certificate. In our Council, the Council has announced that they cannot extend it's tax exempt status to individual units. I believe this is because although the BSA owns the program, the Charter Org. owns the unit. Mark

One Hour, I truly feel your pain! I find myself in a similiar low spot right now. I don't want to get too specific, but I have been quite despondent the last few weeks. My wife has even STRONGLY recomended I take a sabbatical from Scouting for a while. The problem is that even though something comes around every once in a while that makes me question why I am in Scouting, the vast majority of the time, I feel lucky to be here. I consistently get far more out of Scouting than I have even thought about putting into it. My dad was one of those guys who had a cliche for almost everything. As I have gone through the last few weeks, I keep hearing my dad's voice echoing "Tough times never last. Tough people do." One Hour, take your break if you need. I might just take my wife's "advice" and do the same for a while. But maybe I won't. Whether I do or not, I know that things will brighten, and in a few weeks or a few months, there will be a little guy whose uniform is way too big, his ears will be a little dirty, but his smile will only be matched by his heart, and I will be back to getting way more from Scouting than I will start giving again. Good luck to you! Mark

I also believe there is a strong recomendation NOT to wear the BSA uniform on overseas trips. Mark

Perhaps we are fortunate in our district, but if a Cub Leader in our District were to call the District Training chair here, and could get at least a couple people from the Pack to go through the training together, he would set up a Saturday or Sunday session in your home on short notice. I've witnessed him doing this before, and his only real requirement is that you put enough people through the training so that not having a BALOO trained adult cannot be an issue for your Pack in the next few of years. If you are going to the Buffalo Naval Shipyards, your Cubs are in for a treat. I did this trip three times in my 7 years as a Cub Leader. It is a wonderful time. If so, let me offer one other suggestion. the timing of arrival at the ship (@ 4:00 Saturday, and departure @ 10:00 Sunday, if I remember right) lends itself to a side trip to sight see at the falls. If so, most people agree that the Canadian side of the falls is the better trip. If you are doing that, make sure that you don't cause yourself a hassle at the border. Make sure every Scout has a permission slip signed by the parent who is NOT with you giving permission to take the boy across the border. Good luck and have fun! Mark

I can provide these statistics for our Troop. This would be a very small sample, and would likely differ from other Troops with a different mix of Program and Scouts. But these stats are accurate for our Troop. Since 1997, we have had 21 Eagle Scouts. Zero have been 15 or below. 1 has been 16 at the time of his BoR. 4 have been 17 at BoR. The rest, 16 Scouts had already turned 18 when their Bor was held. Mark

As the original poster, it was three adult males at a roundtable wearing hats indoors that caused me to comment about any male wearing any hat anywhere indoors. Mark

cad-guy, I know that Family Life and Personal Managment both have requirments that take 3 months to complete (techically, Personal Management's requirement is 13 weeks). Family life is a tremendous MB for a 12 - 13 - 14 year old Scout to work on, in my opinion. It is right about this time that young men begin to have a sense that their world extends beyond themselves, and helping a Scout begin to grasp this by beginning with a deeper understanding of his family is a great thing. I know I will get flak for this (I have in the past), but I am a real believer that there is far more value to be gained by doing Personal Management as a 16 or 17 year old than as a 13 year old (in the vast majority of cases). Especially if the boy has a part time job. The requirment that takes 13 weeks is for the Scout to write a budget and track his results for 13 weeks. This is far more effective when planning how to meet a goal that includes the income from a part time job versus the weekly allowance that most younger guys would be limited to. Once in a while, I've come across a Scout who has been mowing lawns or working at a family business at a younger age, but more often than not, young Scouts miss the point of setting a goal, making a plan to meet the goal, monitoring the results, and adjusting on the fly in order to meet the goal that was set, which is the value of making the budget in the first place. If you are guiding your son, please consider encouraging him to do Family Life in the near future, and discourage him from working on Personal Managment until he has a part time job. I sincerely believe he will benefit from that advice. Ed, Kind of thought that it was just a brain cramp. Mark

For better or worse, I can remember this scene as well as I can remember my wedding: I was about 13 years old. My father and I went to the bus station downtown to pick up my grandmother, who had taken the bus to go back to her hometown. When we got there, about half the terminal was full. We had the wrong time for the bus arrival, so we ended up sitting in the terminal for about 3 hours waiting. While we were there, the terminal filled up. As it got more and more full, I could feel my dad's eyes as if they were piercing me, but I had no idea what his problem was. This lasted for 10 minutes or so, until my father grabbed me by my ear lobe, and pulled me across the terminal into the men's room. He pushed me into a stall and with the meanest voice I ever heard come out of him told me that he was absolutely ashamed of the job he did as a father. How could a son of his be so rude and inconsiderate to all of the ladies who were standing while I was sitting? Did I not understand that the ONLY polite thing to do was for a man to give up his seat for a lady? And that it didn't matter that it was a black lady, I was still expected to do the polite thing? (My did was a terrific man. But he did have a backward mentality when it came to racial issues. I apologize for him). He dragged me back out of the rest room, made me apologize to the lady (who was now sitting), and told me that if he ever had reason to think I was so impolite again, he'd have to reconsider being my father. It is now 35 years later. I can ASSURE you, that since then, there has never been even one instance when I did not offer my chair to a lady or an elderly gentleman. And I am proud that my father gave me those kinds of manners. If there is a humorous part of the story, it is this. This would have happened within 8 - 10 years of Rosa Parks' bus incident. I must never have seen a picture of Rosa Parks up to that point, but in my mind, Rosa Parks still looks like that lady in the bus station. Whenever they talk about Rosa Parks on the news, it is that lady's face in the bus station I see. And when it happens, I kind of look up to the sky and thank my dad for his lessons. Mark

Ed, Do I understand you correctly? If I do, there is something amiss. As I read your answer, if a Scout were to earn First Aid when he is 2nd class, he would need to earn it again after he became a 1st Class Scout. I've never understood the advancement process to work that way. Do I have the process wrong, or do I misunderstand your answer? Mark

Oh my! I didn't mean to start a religous war! What I have learned though, from these responses, is that it is possible that what I thought was a UNIVERSAL rule with very NARROW exceptions may not have been that universal after all. Beavah is right, there are certainly times at which certain clergy were miters and skull caps (I could be wrong, but I don't believe they would be refered to as yulmalkes in the Catholic church). And I am sure there are other times and in other situations where wearing head cover in indoors was not only acceptable, but required. But I was brought up to believe that a man wearing any type of head cover indoors was an obvious sign of bad manners - Much the same as not opening a door for anyone (especially a lady), not standing when someone else entered a room (especially a lady), not offering your seat to someone else (especially a lady and an elder). And I was brought up to believe it wouldn't matter where in the country you went - these expectations would apply anywhere. OK, I admit I don't remember my dad or any of my teachers specifically SAYING that these were universal rules, but that was what I came to accept. And most others in our Troop, and in my circle of friends, seem to have the same understanding. A few folks mentioned that the traditions of the location (in this case, and LDS church) should be observed. And that certainly makes sense. However, it seems unlikely that a church like the LDS, that has some fairly strict traditions, would prefer that no hats be worn (I assume that the rule that we not have carbonated beverages inside the building is another such tradition). OGE suggests the course of action I believed was best "Someone should have told the gentlemen to take off their hats" (at least until I read some of the replies). It is what I wished I had the courage to do. However, it might be possible that by doing so I might be as offensive to someone else as them wearing their hat indoors seems to me. Now I'm REALLY confused! Mark

Our roundtable, which is usually held at an LDS church in their gym, had to be moved to the worship area because of a scheduling conflict. Last night, while we were all sitting in the pews, I noticed three different male Scout leaders with hats on. One was a bush style hat, the other two were ball caps (one was a BSA themed hat, the other not). First, what has happened to our society that men wearing hats indoors has beome acceptable? Second, even if it has, why would anyone continue to wear one inside a church? and third, how out of line would I be if I were to mention to these "gentlemen" that hats are inappropriate indoors, especially in a church? I know a few will say that times have changed and such. My response to that will always be that manners do not change. What was proper 20 years ago is still proper today. Perhaps this may seem like a small issue to some, but it is a deterioration in acceptable behavior that has led to the downfall of many civilizations in history. Even if I don't get an answers, thanks for letting me vent. Mark