MileHighScouter

Scoutnut re Health & Safety Training: "This course is to be offered to all unit leaders, district staff, and council staff. All leaders should receive this training every two years." It does NOT say "REQUIRED", "MANDATORY", or even "MUST". It states "OFFERED" and "SHOULD", which is BSA speak for it would be nice if they would take it, but we are not forcing it at present. I can understand why they have not made it mandatory..." What is your point Scoutnut? Unit leaders should not be trained in health or safety. We want to tell everyone that unless BSA writes them a letter and expressly tells them to take it, its not "required." I think when BSA tells you to take a course, you ought to take it. Of course, some leaders are independent cusses and learned it all back in 1927 and don't need no stink'n train'n. Right? Any leader that follows that line of reasoning blows his insurance and defense when something bad goes wrong. And in our Council, is probably not a leader.

Health & Safety Training is required every two years. Unfortunately, if you can cut and paste into these message blocks, I don't know how to do it. If you want a copy, send an email to denver4und@msn.com. If you get the H&S Syllabus, you will find the following written on the inside cover page: "All leaders should receive this training every two years....This course is to be conducted in concert with the District/Council Training Plan." Unfortunately, it is national policy (followed by every council I've heard of) to list only the Training committee trainings when somebody asks "what makes a trained leader". Just like CPR and 1st Aid which are required for all leaders who come in contact with boys, this one is also not listed in those responses.

The relevant book is the "Troop Committee Guidebook" BSA Pub. 34505B The relevant training is "Troop Committee Challenge", which all committee members are required to have. The Guidebook says: Page 9: "How Your Scout Troop Works. The Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster is the adult leader RESPONSIBLE FOR the immage AND PROGRAM of the troop." [NO ONE else decides program; the SM is the final decision maker on program.] Page 13: "Troop Committee Organization and Responsibilities. The troop committee is the troop;'s board of directors and supports the troop program....The troop committee does the following:... "ensures quality adult leadership is recruited and TRAINED. "ADVISES [not directs!] the Scoutmaster on policies relating to Boy Scouting and the chartered organization. "Suuports the Scoutmaster in working with individual boys and problems that may affect the overall troop program." Page 14: "Chair [of the Troop Committee] Duties:... "Organize the committee to see that all functions are DELEGATED, COORDINATED AND COMPLETED." [The CC has NO authority to dictate anything, not policy and definitely not the role of the SM or the Troop program.] "Maintain a close relationship with the chartered organization representative and the Scoutmaster......" COMMENTS: I have found that in Scouting many, many, many times the real problem is that nobody really just finds the right book and reads it. Clearly, weasel99, someone should buy the book (its not free) and then at the next committee meeting have the entire committee and the SM go over it and discuss the committee's operations. Also, discuss training and make clear that anyone who doesn't complete training in the next 90 days will be unregistered. I have found that such a course almost always solves the problem. Good people realize the problem and in good spirit deal with it. Real jerks refuse training. Real, real jerks refuse to listen to the book, and then you can get help from your Unit or District Commissioner [remember them?] to persuade the person they must resign or face a formal challenge before the governing body of the chartered organization. Either the SM or the Chartered Organiation Rep can bring the matter to the governing board of the CO. Remember, up above, the SM is directly appointed by the CO and answers to it, not the committee. The SM therefore does not report to the COR and cannot be blocked by a gate keeper. Good luck, jim

The relevant publication is the "Troop Committee Guidebook" Pub.No. 34505B BSA. The relevant training (required for CC and all Committee Members) is the Troop Committee Challenge. If the CC is not trained, there should be no problem explaining that leaders are required to be trained and if she isn't then she can't be registered or in the position. The Guidebook explains the system for CC appointment and removal: Page 9: "How Your Troop Works. The Scoutmaster. The Scoutmaster IS THE ADULT LEADER RESPONSIBLE FOR THE IMAGE AND PROGRAM OF THE TROOP." The CC never is in charge of deciding program. Page 7: "The Chartered Organization" "Your Troop is "owned" by a chartered organization, which receives a national charter yearly to use the Scouting program as part of its youth work. ...Each chartered organization ... selects a Scoutmaster, appoints a Troop committee of at least 3 adults, and chooses a chartered organization representative." The Chartered Organization Representative is NOT authorized to remove or appoint UNLESS the chartered organization has delegated that power to him or her (which is usually a really bad idea.) Page 13: "Troop Committee Organization and Responsibilities. The troop committee is the troop's board of directors and supports the troop program. ... the troop committee does the following: ... "ensures that quality adult leadership is recruited and TRAINED.... "ADVISES the Scoutmaster on policies relating to Boy Scouting and the chartered organization.... "Supports the SCOUTMASTER in working with individual boys and problems that may affect the entire troop." Page 14: "Chair [of the Troop Committee]. Duties:... "Organize the committee to insure that all functions are DELEGATED, COORDINATED AND COMPLETED.

Question was where is the husband/wife rule in GSS? COMMENT: The rules pertaining to two deep leadership are found at page 1 and page 3. (Other references exist, but pertain to particular activities and don't impact question.) The idea that husband/wife teams should not be the only adults on outings is not a rule in the GSS; it is contained in the syllabus of the Health & Safety Training Class that ALL registered Scout leadrs are requried to take every two years (it is NOT the same as the Youth Protection Training class). This is probably the class most often neglected when a leader is being trained. The syllabus suggests that where another adult is available, its best to not use married couples. However, there is no prohibition (probably because there are a lot of small and remote units with limited leadership available).

This is my last post as I'm going to unsubscribe form this hread. HEY, look at the header it says "Scouter Network". I have no interest in politics or religion, I have an interst in Scouting. There are so many fine blogging threads outside of Scouting -- I wish all those who just want to read their own small-minded, biggotted, insular, hateful crap would go there. BOY SCOUTS know: "..... to help other people at all times..." and "A Scout is ... helpful, friendly, courteous, kind...." Too bad few posters know those phrases. Adios, jim

Novice Cubmaster -- Absolutely! The number of Boy Scous has now dropped to less than 1 million boys -- in a nation of 350 million plus people. Less than half the Boy Scouts attend summer camp. Cubs are doing little better, reporting in at 1.6 million, with less than a third participating in day camp. Venturing is at a quarter million. So, add it up, of the 4.6 million youth members that BSA reports to Congress, only about half are in traditional scouting units. All the rest are in the Exploring/Learning for Life division, which is co-ed and runs mostly after school programs in elementary schools. We have enough trouble recruiting scouts, keeping them in the units, keeping developers and neighbors from closing scout camps, and all the rest, do we REALLY need to be constantly bringing politics and religion into every darn thing! This thread started out with a real problem for a unit leader. It then roared off into left field on the pledge of allegience, when religious consciousness occurs, and politics. Yeeessssh. Remember, in polite company one never discusses religion or politics. Wonder when we forgot that.....

Eagle92, you did a great job with the initial advice. It seemed unclear, from other's comments whether the young man was in treatment for the attempt. If so, great, save the following for next time; but if not, then..... I vehemently disagree with the comments: "The young man needs professional counseling. No not really." & Calico: "do not recommend counseling". http://teenadvice.about.com/od/suicidedepression/a/cry4attention_4.htm http://depression.about.com/od/suicideprevent/a/howhelpsuicidal.htm http://www.familyfirstaid.org/suicide.html After 20 years of decline, teen suicide is again on the rise. See http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2008/11/after_2_decade_decline_teen_su.html Suicide talk and attempts cannot be treated lightly. Some sources say that as many as 75% of those who discuss or try suicide will eventually suceed. COMMENT: BSA has a Youth Protection program. If you believe that the Scout is not receiving professional help because mom is (1) unable to deal or cope; (2) didn't take the attempt seriously; or (3) doesn't want to "make it worse." Then I believe you should call social services and report the matter. This young man attempted to reach out to his scout leader. NO BLAME goes to the scout leader, we all get those calls and without an express threat then we deal with sympathy, expression that they should come back when they can, etc. BSA FACT CHECK FOR SUICIDE: http://www.scouting.org/FILESTORE/marketing/pdf/20a.pdf IS SUICIDE PART OF Youth Protection? Yes. See Comments from Commissioner Service Newsletter re New Venturing Training: "Venturing The Personal Safety Guidelines DVD for this age-level was strengthened by adding a segment on teen suicide prevention and completely revising the material on Internet safety. Scenarios also address acquaintance rape and sexual harassment." Also on BSA website: Mental Health/Suicide and Other Youth Issues, speech by US Surgeon General 2005, part on suicide: "Mental illnesses affect almost every American family. It can occur at any stage of life, from childhood to old age. No community is unaffected by mental illnesses; no school or workplace is untouched. "Every year, between 5 to 9 percent of American children have a serious emotional disturbance. These figures mean that millions of children are disabled by mental illnesses every year. "President Bush has said, "Americans must understand and send this message: mental disability is not a scandal -- it is an illness. And like physical illness, it is treatable, especially when the treatment comes early." "Over the years, science has broadened our knowledge about mental health and illnesses, showing the potential to improve the way in which mental health care is provided. However, despite substantial investments that have enormously increased the scientific knowledge base and have led to developing many effective treatments, many Americans are not benefiting from these investments. "Suicide is still the third leading cause of death among 15- to 24-year-old Americans. Suicide costs us more than 30,000 lives each year. That's almost one person every 15 minutes. And once every 45 seconds someone else attempts suicide. And even if the life is spared, the heartache and pain is so severe that the spirit may never fully heal. Like so much of the death and disease in our nation, suicide is preventable. It's prevented by understanding and identifying risks and then taking the necessary protective measures. Working together, we can save these lives." I WOULD SUGGEST that Eagle92 you call the local suicide prevention office in your city or state, there are many and often associated with major hospitals, teaching hospitals, etc. I'd ask what should I do. I believe that Calico's response was incomplete. I agree with all the privacy and not assigning boy comments, but if she is saying, and I might just be interpreting, to just lump along like normal with just an extra eye out, then I believe that part is just wrong. Every special class I've taken on suicide says that espcially with teenagers it cannot be ignored or not treated. In 2004 suicide was the 5th leading cause of death in the US for young to mid range teens. Here is the MAYO CLINIC'S DEPRESSION/SUIDE ADVICE from website: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/suicide/MH00058 LOOK especially at the last 4 paragraphs or so of the Mayo article: "Suicide: What to do when someone is suicidal When someone you know appears suicidal, you might not know what to do. Learn warning signs, what questions to ask and how to get help. By Mayo Clinic staff Hearing someone talk about suicide can be distressful and upsetting. Hearing someone talk about suicide can be distressful and upsetting. You want to help him or her stay safe and get professional treatment. But you may not be sure how to help, whether you should take talk of suicide seriously, or if your intervention might even make the situation worse. Certainly, not everyone who has thoughts of suicide or talks about suicide actually attempts it. But most people who take their own life have expressed their intention at some time. That's why it's important to take any talk or threat of suicide seriously, especially when someone has depression or another mental disorder, is intoxicated, or is behaving impulsively or recklessly. While it may not be possible to prevent all suicides, your active involvement may make a difference in saving a life. Learn effective, compassionate ways to intervene and guide someone toward professional help when he or she may be considering suicide. Know who's at risk of suicide Understanding who's at a higher risk of suicide can help prevent a tragedy. While you don't necessarily need to constantly monitor someone who's at higher risk, you may be more alert for possible problems. Factors that may increase someone's risk of suicide include: Previous suicide attempts Having a psychiatric disorder, such as depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia or personality disorders Alcohol or substance abuse A family history of mental disorders or substance abuse A family history of suicide Family violence, including physical or sexual abuse Firearms in the home A significant medical illness, such as cancer or chronic pain Learn warning signs of suicide You can't always tell when a loved one or friend is considering suicide. But here are some typical warning signs: Talking about suicide, including making such statements as "I'm going to kill myself," "I wish I were dead" or "I wish I hadn't been born" Securing the means to commit suicide, such as getting a gun or stockpiling pills Withdrawing from social contact and wanting to be left alone Dramatic mood swings, such as being emotionally high one day and deeply discouraged the next Being preoccupied with death, dying or violence Feeling trapped or hopeless about a situation Increased use of alcohol or drugs Changing normal routine, including eating or sleeping patterns Engaging in risky or self-destructive behavior, such as using drugs or driving recklessly Giving away belongings or getting affairs in order Saying goodbye to people as if they won't be seen again Developing personality changes, such as becoming very outgoing after being shy Also, don't always expect to see warning signs of suicide. Some people keep their thoughts of suicide secret or deny having suicidal intentions even when directly asked. And many who consider or attempt suicide do so when you thought they should be feeling better during what may seem like a recovery from depression, for instance. That's because they may finally muster the emotional energy to take action on their suicidal thoughts. Ask questions when someone seems suicidal The best way to find out if someone is considering suicide is to directly but gently ask. Asking them won't give them the idea or push them into doing something self-destructive. To the contrary, your willingness to ask can decrease the risk of suicide by giving them an opportunity to talk about their feelings. If someone denies having suicidal intentions but you're still worried, continue to gently raise the issue. You can ask open-ended questions about their feelings or specific questions about suicide. Here are examples of questions you can ask someone you're concerned about: Are you thinking about dying? Are you thinking about hurting yourself? Are you thinking about suicide? Have you thought about how you would do it? Do you know when you would do it? Do you have the means to do it? How are you coping with what's been happening in your life? Do you ever feel like just giving up? If a friend or loved one is considering suicide, he or she needs professional help. Remember, it's not your job to become a substitute for a mental health provider. Also, don't tell him or her that you promise not to tell anyone. The safety of your friend or loved one is of the utmost importance. Don't worry about losing a friendship when someone's life is at stake. Besides, carrying a secret like this is a big burden for you emotionally. Take action through safe, supportive steps If you believe someone is at imminent risk of suicide or harming himself or herself or has made a suicide attempt, don't leave the person alone. Call 911 or your local emergency services provider right away. If necessary, take the person to a hospital emergency department yourself. If possible, find out if he or she is under the influence of alcohol or drugs or may have taken an overdose. You may have to remove items that could become weapons of self-destruction, such as guns, knives or pills. But don't put yourself in harm's way by doing so. If the danger of suicide or self-harm isn't imminent, offer to work together to find appropriate help, and then follow through on your promise. Someone who is suicidal or has severe depression may not have the energy or motivation to find help on their own. Ways you can help include: Finding a qualified doctor or mental health provider Taking him or her to appointments Sorting through health insurance policies or benefit information Many types of help and support are available to people considering suicide. If your friend or loved one doesn't want to consult a doctor or mental health provider, suggest finding help from a support group, crisis center, faith community, teacher or other trusted confidante. There's no way to predict with certainty who will attempt suicide. And although you're not responsible for preventing someone from taking his or her own life, your intervention may help him or her see that other options are available to stay safe and get treatment. Be supportive and empathetic, not judgmental. Listen to his or her concerns without interruption. Reassure him or her that help is available and that with appropriate treatment he or she can feel better about life again. Don't be patronizing by telling someone that "everything will be OK," that "things could be worse" or that "you have everything to live for." Direct questioning, supportive listening and gentle but persistent guidance can help you bring hope and appropriate treatment to someone who believes suicide will offer the only relief."

Part IX of the Guide to Safe Scouting has the rules for skating and skate parks. I'd give that section to the PLC or the Patrol to use in their planning. Tell 'em to go for it.

I worked on this issue for many years as an SM. I came up with 2 rules. 1. All New scouts go in new scout patrols. That's why BSA invented the Troop Guide. New scouts in established patrols leave the troop more often because they are not part of the established group, as younger kids they get ribbed more and end up washing the dishes more, and if they had a good webelos patrol, what is the point of breaking them up? I had several webelos patrols go all the way through the troop to Eagle. Obviouly, many patrols are recombined or shuffled later, but a good newbie patrol with a good troop guide and summer camp in the first year (required in our troop) is a recipe for strong scouts who want to stay around. 2. When patrols get smaller due to attrition or scouts in patrols are looking for a change, the SPL holds a resuffle meeting. The meeting has two rules. The BOYS figure it out without any adult participation, and when its done EVERYONE has to be happy. Sometimes its quick, sometimes it takes a couple of meetings. But I've never had it fail. My experience with roundtable discussions and training events is that our council runs about 2/3 new scout patrols and about 1/3 leaders assign patrols.

"Until you've walked a mile in his shoes..." I had a Troop in D.C. 30 boys, 1 white and the rest black (I'm white). My Troop in Colorado, at the same time, had 1 sikh, 2 muslims, 6 catholics, a bunch of different flavors of protestant, asians, blacks, whites, hispanics. It takes empathy and work to make everyone feel welcome. You know you've succeeded when the kids stand up for each other (summer camp staff making fun of the sikh). Meet with the dad and mom, perhaps at their house. Tell them that you are glad they are with your unit because their son will be a real addition to the group. Ask them to particpate as leaders (several others pointed this out) but also ask them to come to meetings if they don't want to be leaders. I learned a lot about black culture in 4 years in D.C. with my boys. Hopefully your boys will have a chance to learn also. Look for problems and catch them early. (at that evil summer camp I actually screwed up big time when the camp director was using subtle hints that our Sikh scout was being ostracized by his staff, and I missed it. The boys actually dealt with it in the class.)

Eagle 92, if I came across as preachy, its not intended. My problem with hatchets is that if BSA isn't willing to tell me how to teach it, then I'm not sure I should be trying to do it -- especially with something as dangerous as a hatchet. But I also see the point of teaching all tools. That has its merits. Conservatism is a virtue in my business. Tomahawks aren't hatchets! They are made and intended to be thrown and therefore aren't woods tools. GSS One person mentioned being OVERWEIGHT. I'm not sure how many folks know it, but the BSA NATIONAL NEW HEALTH FORMS have been published, the website is http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34605_Letter.pdf This form is to be required annually (I think) and contains the height-weight limits that have been in the Philmont and Sea Base forms now. The height weight limits now apply to all events: (1) over 72 hours; or (2) med attention is no available within 30 minutes; or (3) strenuous activity such as service projects or work weekends constitute the event. :0 I think that BSA is really trying to force us overweight leaders to get in shape or quit working with units. I guess that's probably good but I hate the prohibition part of their approach. Although about 5 years ago a leader dropped dead on a trail at our summer camp with my guys following right behind, they probably didn't need that. I would expect to see blood pressure cuffs and scales at summer camp soon, just like at Philmont.

mmHardy wrote: "What's the point of this thread? To Push buttons?" Well, I thought it might be an opportunity for leaders working with scouts to exchange information and questions about health, safety and training. After the tone of the comments became abusive and belittling, I checked out other places on this website. There is an admin section, with nothing but messages about newbies who leave because of the refusal to engage in meaningful dialogue are receive only crap. So, I don't have any idea what the point is. Apparently, its to make fun of folks for trying.

Hi all, I think the following items may help the discussion. When I looked at the Wolf Requirements, here's what I found: DUTY TO GOD (Page 94) Complete the Character Connection for Faith Know. What is "faith"? With your family, discuss some people who have shown their faith - who have shown an inner strength based on their trust in a higher power or cause. Discuss the good qualities of these people. Commit. Discuss these questions with your family: What problems did these faithful people overcome to follow or practice their beliefs? What challenges might you face in doing your duty to God? Who can help you with these challenges? Practice. Practice your faith while doing the requirements for "Duty to God." Talk with your family about what they believe is their duty to God. Give two ideas on how you can practice or demonstrate your religious beliefs. Choose one and do it. Find out how you can help your church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or religious fellowship. Second, here is the BSA's Declaration of Religious Principle: The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which a member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership. http://www.scouting.org/media/relationships/manualforchaplainsandaides.aspx Finally, here is the link to the BSA legal page that talks about the requirement that you have to believe in God to be a member. http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp The FAQ part of the page says in its entirety: Frequently Asked Questions On this page we will answer the questions most frequently asked about Boy Scouts' legal issues, from its views and policies to individual cases. In the coming days we will add new sections dealing with current and past cases. Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member? A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it addresses the issue of duty to God before duty to country, others, and self. Q. Why is duty to God important to Scouting? A. Since its founding in the United States in 1910, the Boy Scouts of America has had an ongoing commitment to encouraging moral, ethical and spiritual growth. The Boy Scouts of America believes that the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law are central to Boy Scouts goals. Q. What harm would come of admitting young people who are unwilling to do their duty to God? A. The Scout Oath and Law have served as the foundation of Scouting for 94 years. It would be a disservice to over five million youth and adult members of Scouting to allow members to pick and choose among the elements of the Oath or Law. Q. How does the Boy Scouts of America define religion? A. Boy Scouts of America is not a religion; it is a nonsectarian association of persons who believe in God. The Declaration of Religious Principle describes God in a broadly interfaith way as the ruling and leading power in the universe to whom we are grateful for favors and blessings. Q. What religions are involved with Scouting? A. Virtually every religion is represented in the Boy Scouts of America, from Catholics and Protestants, to the Armenian Church of America and Zoroastrians. The Religious Relationships Committee, which includes over 30 religious groups represented in Scouting, determines whether a religion is an appropriate partner for Scouting, and reviews any duty to God material which is to be used in Scouting for consistency with Boy Scout policies. Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership? A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization. Q. Don't Boy Scouts discriminate against gays and atheists? A. Boy Scouts of America is one of the most diverse youth groups in the country, serving boys of every ethnicity, religion, and economic circumstance and having programs for older teens of both sexes. That Boy Scouts also has traditional values, like requiring youth to do their "duty to God" and be "morally straight" is nothing to be ashamed of and should not be controversial. No court case has ever held that Boy Scouts discriminates unlawfully, and it is unfortunate here that anyone would characterized Boy Scouts' constitutionally protected right to hold traditional values as "discriminatory." That is just name-calling. COMMENT: As a CM and SM (12 yrs) I never asked anyone what they believed. I assume that if a scout repeats the oath, then he believes something. In my view a cub scout probably does not have the mental maturity to decide that they are an aethist. Practical problem: I would suggest that the CM sit down with the parents or guardians, without the scout, and discuss the BSA's policies. This might be a great time for the family to explore their beliefs and what they are teaching their child. I'd give the family a year to figure out what they believe well enough to articulate it. If they refuse, or are mad, then they'll be leaving. BUT it is crucial that the unit NEVER be seen as kicking someone out over this issue. If you allow that, then you will likely schism the unit, have lots of good folks leave because they don't like discrimination, etc. I'd involve my district commissioner in the situation asap and get some guidance. I know our council for instance has folks trained to assist in this situation. Good Luck, jim

Shortridge wrote: "Sorry, but you searched for the wrong word. The modern term is "hand ax," not "hatchet." That term IS included in the G2SS (p. viii, in the age-appropriate activities chart). And the BSA STILL sells hand axes today - two types, in fact." You were right. I tripled checked. In the older version, the two items were on the same line. Now they are different entries. Go figure. However, I can't say I'd change anything I said. Although my trial example might give the SM a chance at winning. What I don't get is how the GSS can list it in the chart, but ignore it in all text. Not to mention the failure to list it anywhere in any of the other docs I mentioned. Oh well, again sometimes it seems not to make sense. jim