Miki101

Hi OGE, Unfortunately, I don't have a scrapbook with that picture in it. dave scott

Hi SA, That is an honorary nameplate. BP is buried in Kenya. dave scott

Hi Kahuna, Thank you for your kind words. As for quibbling...its a good thing. It sounds like you have a background in the basics. Anyway, Dr. Frank Baden-Powell did indeed negotiate the deal with Gale and Polden but the contract also clearly stated that the proofs had to be sent to BP in Mafeking for final approval prior to publishing. Thereby, BP had the final say as to what went into it and when it could be published. It would have been published with or without BPs victory in the defense but had his defense failed, then I propose that the book would have failed shortly thereafter and that would have been the end of it. As for that pub table...it is a very rare piece of BP memorabilia and should go for a couple of thousand That would be a question for Colin Walker of http://www.scouting.milestones.btinternet.co.uk/ , who is a Mafeking expert and scholar. I believe that he has one, and paid a princely sum for it. dave scott

Hi Kahuna, He may have written AIDS TO SCOUTING before the Boer War but he published it during the Boer War. He was not known until the combination of the Mafeking defense and that book came out. His vision of Scouting survived because of the combination of the two. Had the defense failed, the book would have failed too, and he would have gone down in history as another bumbling British Colonel, and there would have been no semblance of Scouting as we have today in the world. His Mafeking fame is what caused to attention of the world to watch his every move. He really created Scouting in 1906, although he had been seriously pondering it since 1904. He did not have a cohesive plan until the blueprint came to him at the Savoy Hotel from Seton. BP took some of Setons ideas and formed them into something that he could use in his scheme and we know this from BPs Diary entry on Oct 30, 1906. The light clearly went off at that point and thusly, we had the seed of the program that we love today. Without BP, the Scouting that would have occurred would have been in the non-militaristic, highly Americanized vision of Dan Beard. The other option (which would have fared better because of the backing of the YMCA) would have been the Woodcraft Indians, which would have morphed into a massive Indian Guides program. The toy gun-toting Boys Brigades was already here, and they would have been a militaristic scouting group, along with a bunch of others, but in all of those cases, none had the drama and image of Beard backing them. Thereby, his group would have made the greatest impact at that time in the Scouting world, but again, it probably would have died when he did, unless another big organization took it up. Neither he nor Seton were big infrastructure builders. BP was, though. Yet another reason why BP succeeded. dave scott

Hi Oz, Actually Yes, I have been to the Scouting Milestones site. In fact, I wrote the Seton article posted on that site and have submitted its follow-up article (Seton v. BP) for coding and posting. Colin (ie; "Johnny" Walker, the owner if the site) has had it for 4 months...so you can rattle his cage about it. miki

Howdy Oz, That story about the Ole Fog Man was William D. Boyce, a Chicago newspaperman, which he dated to August 1909. He was en route to British East Africa on safari, to go bag some large game. Theodore Roosevelt was already there and the world's attention was on that country for a while. Roosevevlt was sending back weekly wires for THE OUTLOOK magazine, which he was an editor for after his tenure in the White House. Wanting attention for his paper also, Boyce set off for Africa via England to get some press of his own. He attempted to do so via a gimmick known as the Balloonograph Expedition, where he sent some of his mates up in a hot air balloon to make moving pictures of his team shooting game animals. It ended up being a complete failure,with the camers jamming or film cannisters falling off, but he did capture some attention away from Roosevelt...at least in the Chicago area papers. Seton and Boyce probably never met, even during the BSA years because Boyce was either on world explorational tours or was hunkered down in his Chicago offices. However, when in England, Seton seemed to prefer using the centrally located Savoy Hotel...as did Boyce. Seton's pow-wow with BP was October 1906, Boyce was 1909. miki

Okey Dokey Trev, here goes... Had Baden-Powell been mortally wounded in the Boer War, yet survived until the Siege of Mafeking was lifted, he would have been lionized much more than he already was in actual history. During the Siege, much was made of AIDS TO SCOUTING and he knew what was happening. He had been receiving smuggled parcels from his publishers for at least 3 consecutive months after publication, presumably with sales figures. The publishers enclosed copies of the latest printings, and probably kept him informed as to his royalty checks. The MAFEKING MAIL was letting all in the township know that his little, red instruction book was a hit amongst not only those in the English army, but also those in the German and the Aussie armies. So, BP knew that his popularity was on the rise. Therefore, if he had died just after the Siege, his mother would have insisted that he be buried in Westminster Abbey with all of the other legends in British history. FYI: He was offered that honor late in his life but he turned it down so that he could be buried in his beloved Kenya beneath Mt. Kenya. As for Scouting, we would not have what we have today. Thats obvious, but what would it be? I have an idea... There were several things happening at the critical time of 1902 1906. First, there was Ernest Thompson Seton. Now, Seton had been to England in 1904 in an attempt to transplant his Setons Indian movement. He had presented numerous lectures in that country and was generating interest. He got tribes established. He published his BIRCH-BARK ROLL in England in 1906. He wrote to Lord Roberts to solicit his help in getting more tribes chartered. But the most that Roberts would do was to hook him up with BP, which would eventually lead to the meeting at the Savoy Hotel on Oct. 30, 1906. For us Scouters, that was the essential pivot point in BPs mind because it was there that he finally put all of the pieces of his scheme together. He already had all of them in his mind, but they did not make sense until he talked to Seton. Thus began BPs ascension in the Scouting world. So without BP, Roberts may very well have backed Setons work in England because there was a need for it. However, the Indian theme was not very European. It would have had to be re-named for use over there, but it would have been established along the lines of the present day Woodcraft Movement...both genders pretty much building campfires, chanting aloud and dancing around in the woods. Second, there was the Legion of Frontiersman, which was a purely military movement that still exists in Canada. They are pretty much dedicated to military training and preparedness, and their units have fought in several armed conflicts. Their founder, Roger Pocock, was a Boer War veteran who also solicited Roberts approval in 1906 but was denied any because Roberts had knowledge of BPs scheme work since 1905. Without BP, the Legion might have gotten a much greater start. There were, of course the Boys Brigade and the Church Lads League already in existence, which would have claimed the spotlight, but it probably would have been Setons group that would have survived and thrived the best...at least while he was alive. In the US, the Progressive movement was in full stride. Theodore Roosevelt was using his bully pulpit to give attention to the plight of the inner-city lad. Boys were roaming the streets with nothing to do but get in trouble. Without BPs scouts, you would have seen the YMCA taking the Seton Indian scheme and running with it full tilt. What is not readily known is that Seton had been in discussions with the YMCA in various capacities to get his Indian program into their own camping program, the same camping program that they had been doing since the late 1890s. What you would have would be a massive YMCA Indian Guides program on the large lines of our beloved BSA. Thats how I see it. miki

At-a-boy Eamonn, HQ GAZETTE could be a good Scouting blog. He used his resources then...and he would do so now. miki

Thats an interesting query. What would happen if BP appeared today, other than the fact that he would be mobbed everywhere he went in the Scouting world and would have lots of speaking engagements, much like his 1912 world tour. However, the first thing that I believe he would do would be to re-write SCOUTING FOR BOYS (on his laptop using Word) to reflect the modern times. There probably would be a safe scouting on the internet section along with a section on how to not be a victim of child predators. As the Chief Scout of the World, he would grant lots of interviews and, thereby, garner enormous international attention. He would stress that Scouting as the largest youth Peace Movement in the world but not deflect any attention from Scoutings patriotic duty to serve ones country in time of need. He would have supported the War in Iraq from the standpoint of unwavering national patriotism and assisted in its rebuilding, which would lead to the re-start Scouting in that country. I do not think that he would go around issuing orders to change the uniform. He would instead try to re-build Scoutings infrastructure from the philosophical viewpoint and reiterate that Scouting is non-denominational but there is a basic belief in some Supreme Being. He may even re-issue his 1910 circular on How to Pray. He would stress personal responsibility and throw in lots of stories from his youth to illustrate his points and be the author of many other pieces. He would also start writing his weekly column in THE SCOUT and THE HEADQUARTERS GAZETTE. He would have to have an extremely large entourage to take care of his day-to-day matters, which would allow him to concentrate on the re-building part. He would have little accessibility and would complain about it, but his handlers would have to keep him safe from physical harm. He would spend some of his time giving affidavits in ongoing lawsuits and be called upon as an expert witness. After years of travel, speeches and court summons, he would retire to Kenya and live in Pax-Four. And if Seton were alive at the same time in 2005let the fireworks begin. miki

South Africa was March 1908...

CO's were around pre-1910. The question is, "Does your charter contain the words 'Chartered Organization?'"

Fuzzy, I would have to consult his writings prior to 1910 to comment much further. I would rather quote from his writings than to make up some drivel that I thought that he said.

You are correct. BP provided his unequaled famed that he received from the Mafeking defense and shone it upon his next fancy, scouting. As you know, he was the most famous Englishman in the world at the time. Whatever he did was followed and imitated by his throngs of followers. Although Seton tried, he could not get the worlds interest in his vision of woodcraft as BP did, which BP seemingly did with ease. In December 1903, BP wrote a letter to the editor of the Eton College Chronicle in which he laid out his first seed of Scouting. It was more or less based upon the Chivalric Code, which held duty to God and country as its goals (I would quote from it but I do not have my texts with me right now). He acted little upon those thoughts up until November 1906, after he had the Savoy Hotel meeting with Seton. At that point, BP had a framework for his program, unknowingly provided by Seton at the time. The genesis of what we have today began to take shape then. In retrospect, BP wrote in his 1929 SCOUTING AND YOUTH MOVEMENT pamphlet, Our object in the Scout Movement is to give such help as we can in bringing about God's Kingdom on earth by inculcating among youth the spirit and the daily practice in their lives of unselfish goodwill and co-operation. . . . In our Movement for youth we do not give preference to any one form of religion over another where all are working for the best in accordance with their respective beliefs." Now, we know that BPs program was the model for the BSA, since the BSA rejected Setons Woodcraft Indian model after the Silver Bay Scoutmaster Camp in August 1910. However, the English Laws were only 10 in number at that time, which did not include any reference to Reverence to God. It was in there in spirit, but not so stated in a law. In 1911, with James West at the helm and also being a former YMCA lawyer, he insisted that Reverence to God be included as an additional American Boy Scout law. Since the YMCA was wholly running the BSA in 1910 and into 1911, they did not have any hurt feelings at having a reference to Reverence to God. Therefore, Reverence was basically there from the beginning of the BSA, truly initiated at the point at which our program evolved away from the English model and was thoroughly Americanized. So, if one were to say that BP is the responsible party for God being in Scouting, I would say, he wasnt as big on it when compared to the YMCA leaders of the BSA in the earliest years. In actuality, the BSA was a very convenient and highly organized way for them to expand their ministries, since they had been man building through scoutlike camps since the late 19th century, well before any one of the BSA founders got it going themselves.

Yep, God has always been there. I'm not quite sure what you mean by my "perspective." Seton was not a "Christian" for most of his life, but he was very spiritual. He was a worshipper of the outdoors and an admirer of the Great Spirit. That is completely consistent with the Scouting doctrine and what BP had in mind from the start. As for Burnham, he always gave credit to BP for the idea of Scouting although one "author" has stated the contrary. That "author" is dead wrong. If you want to discuss that issue off line then that is fine. As for Burnham himself, he and BP were consistent letter writers to each other from the early 1900's through BP's death, and even afterward Burnham wrote frequently to Lady BP. BP greatly admired Burnham and referred to both he and Buffalo Bill Cody in AIDS TO SCOUTING. In fact, BP refered to Cody as the greatest Scout alive (in 1912) and Burnham was given that mantle by BP after Buffalo Bill's death. Irregardless, BP surely learned military scouting tactics from Burnham like Burnham probabaly did from him.

Hi Fuzzy, I'm glad that it was Sampson. Keller's tone is much more accusatory of BP in the Seton v. BP controversy. It is not a very evenhanded criticism.

I see that Fuzzy has been reading the Betty Keller bio on the man. Seton was an interesting animal, so to speak. He most definitely adored the Indian, thereby despising Gen. Custer (although he was fond of Mrs. Custer) as well as worshipping his mother, who was as Seton wrote in his memoirs, a saint and a martyr. He was a romantic in the sense that the only good point about the American West were the Indians and the worst thing was the Whiteman who ruthlessly murdered them. He had no use for the American pioneer because they did nothing but encroach upon Indian lands and induce the slaughter of the American Bison. To that end, he was asked by Hornaday to illustrate his 1887 Report to the Smithsonian in an attempt to save the almost extinct species. However, his true downfall was his enormous ego and massive inferiority complex. This is what drove him to constantly work. His business sense was poor but he married well and Grace saw earning potential in him. She, in effect, became his business manager and assisted him in his contracts and book deals. He was a prolific author and illustrator who rarely found time to spend it with Grace or Ann (she always felt abandoned by both parents.) Most of his time was spent in the studio either in their New York flat or in their estate (Wyndygoul or DeWinton.) He was a friend to Theodore Roosevelt from the time when TR was New York Citys Chief of Police and a founder of the prestigious Boone and Crockett Club (credited with getting the Feds to set aside lands for National ParksYellowstone being the first). Seton was an excellent story-teller and he was asked by TR to tell one of his famous wolf stories. From then on, Seton had a lecturing career. Setons identity can be summed up in 2 ways. First, by his obsession with the Indian lifestyle & spirituality, and second, his signature, signed with the wolf pawprint. That came about from the sorrow that he felt when capturing the wolf that could not be captured dubbed Lobo of the Currumpaw Valley in New Mexico. He did it, the wolf died days later and their spirits became one in Setons eyes. From that day on, Seton only shot animals with a camera and he began signing his name with the addition of the Lobo pawprint signifying their unity of spirit. Seton always wanted to be the head honcho at the BSA. He and West never got along because it was clear that West was going to be the only honcho. Seton was cut off in most creative directions that he turned by either West or the Editorial Board,or as Dan Beard called them,the swivel chair committee. But that is another story. By the end of 1915, Seton announced in the New York Times that he was no longer and member of the BSA and he spoke of Scouting as Seton started it, Baden-Powell boomed it, West killed it in addition to the statement that West had never seen a blue sky in his life. The reasons for his outster or resignation are pretty specific on both sides, but again, that is another story. Roosevelt publicly supported West on the issue, which probably resulted in the BSAs headquarters being flooded with letters of support from regular citizens congratulating them for tossing out their noisy prima donna and ridding the organization of hyphenates. Seton never really recovered although he quickly began rebuilding his Woodcraft League in 1916. However, as we all know, it never was able to capture the imagination of the American citizen, probably because of its emphasis on the Indian lifestyle. Setons groundbreaking work was clearly utilized by Baden-Powell in his scheme but it does not appear to have been in a malicious way. Baden-Powell was a very clever man, (he had to be to survive Mafeking), and he used his military skills to their fullest in civilian life. As some people would say, Baden-Powell plagiarized Seton but that was really not what happened. However, Seton would never get over his charge of B-P as a plagiarist and it ate at him until his death in 1946. This obsession with due credit was the direct result of his inferiority complex. But in the end, Setons work is clearly seen in the BSA, even though West tried to write him out of it (the OA came from a Seton lecture heard by Carroll Edson) as well as the seed for the Cub Program (Kipling was seemingly a creative step behind Seton ever now and then, though they were very good friends). And Setons influence will probably stay for years to come because he was a purist when it came to the out-of-doors lifestyle and we all can thank him for that.

Actually rpushies, Hearst founded the American Boy Scouts in June 1910, which changed their name to the United States Boy Scouts after the BSA received their Federal Charter in 1916 virtually locking up the trademark words "Scout(s)." Hearst himself withdrew from his ABS in December 1910 after he declared that his ABS Board of Directors had been using funds inappropriately.

I reviewed a number of documents from the early years of the BSA (1910 1920) and have concluded that the spirit of the Chartered Organization began to develop as policy between 1916 and 1920, although the phrase Chartered Organization is most likely is a 1920s label. In Boyces concept of his BSA given at by his attorney at the May 1910 to the Congressional Charter hearings, Three or more patrols in one school or community will form a troop under an officer called a scout-master. Therefore, it can be assumed that the first CO concept was a school or community at large. No specific label, just a place to meet and keep their stuff. They would pay no taxes but there would be some organized structure to report to like a Council or, hopefully, a National Office. The Congressmen were convinced that a state-centric incorporation system would work, and that a national office was not needed. Therefore, no national incorporation was granted in 1910. But thats another story. Boyce turned the program over to the YMCA's Edgar Robinson and growth began on local levels. Other later documents do not list the numbers of COs but rather Scoutmasters and Scouts nationally. COs were unimportant because the BSA had to concentrate on growth through membership. This growth was fueled by the large numbers of very prominent men who were involved in it and supporting it from the start, ie: Seton, Beard, Roosevelt, Schiff, Riis, Rockefeller, etc. The organizational structure was clearly Nationals to run in scope with the councils having little to say, but that was to quickly change as the National office sent out Field Workers to educate the Local Councils in policies and procedures. By the 3rd annual meeting in February 1913, the BSAs Executive Board sought to decrease their own role and increase the powers of the Local Councils since it was easier for them to develop the program with local reps doing the work. A series of 16 resolutions were presented on the order of delegating that the Local Councils grow the program within the bounds and rules set by National. It was only after the BSA got their Federal Charter in 1916 that, I believe, that they started seriously working on their basic structure, which is why the term supporting institution popped-up in 1920. The BSA had just had phenomenal success with the war effort and the whole nation knew what they could accomplish. Therefore, some structural things had to change and from there, it was a natural step to come up with the mature CO concept.

Trev, I'll get on this one on Monday. I just can't remember when CO's were introduced but I do know that they were a part of "organized camping" way back in the late 1800's when the YMCA was playing with the idea of using camping as a boys' developmental tool.

I would have to postulate that this plough dates back to the WWI Bond and Victory Campaigns where the cry was "Every Scout to Feed a Soldier." Scouts were encouraged to plant "War Gardens" in order to assist the war effort among other things like selling war bonds, war stamps and counting the black walnut trees ("Liberty Trees") for use as gun stocks and the like.

You might also contact Boys' Life at the national office and ask them about purchasing back issues. Congratulations!

Thanks for the questions. I will have to be a bit mysterious until the book comes out. I have had access to over 35 (at last count) archives and private collections in addition to the BSA that deal with my topics. I have amassed a file of over 10,000 pages of documents, as well as over 200 books and other sources in my research. Many of them primary sources. I do go back the Beard's HANDY BOOK and as well as the "Unknown Scout." I am not a professional historian but a Certified Scouting History Freak who finds that my worst day of Scouting is better than my best day at work. I write and research ever night in my spare time from 10pm to about 2am. My most exciting moment is digging up a fact that has been missed by "professional" historians in some obscure source. And by now, I have a handful of these little gems that will make for a clearer picture of the founding of the BSA. You see, I have an understanding wife.

AOL Eagle 5 palms Currently the Chartered Org Rep. Was the CC.

I'll sign a copy for you. The book is going to bring in a lot of characters that you never would have guessed had a hand in the founding of the BSA. Yet without them, the BSA would not have a had the success and the revolutionary effects on the American society that it did in the first 10 years. It's going to be quite an eye-opener for Scouting/Social historians.

Trev, let me answer your question in a less than direct route, but I believe that it will prove fruitful. In May of 1918, well after the US entrance into World War I, James West received a letter from the Executive Secretary of the National Committee of Patriotic Societies, W.M. Lewis, claiming that German spies in the US were spreading propaganda amidst the colored community stating that first, if they did not oppose the German Govt then after the war they would be given Ford automobiles when Germany was in control of North America. Second, the US War Dept has sent 10 negroes to one white man to fight in the war, and third, the Germans went into the Congo to punish the Belgiums for their treatment of the black man. Mr. Lewis wanted West to turn his attention to the black youths in order to stem the potential for belief in this subversive propaganda. West circulated this letter to his inner circle and Beard replied that in order to start black troops, they would have to have the support of the Southern people with care being taken not to arouse their prejudice. He further called the black boy as an asset rather than a liability. A second letter reached West written by Miss Rosa Lowe of the Atlanta Anti-Tuberculosis League who noted that tuberculosis ran rampant through the black community and asked West to consider starting troops in the black community to reinforce the virtues of healthful living. She spoke to an Atlanta Scoutmaster who assured her that the Negroes are very anxious to have this organization because they wish their boys to be trained in patriotism and loyalty to America and for the protection of the citizens here and if the Scout movement is good for the development of the white boys it will have the same effect on the colored. West sent a reply to Ms. Lowe stating the National Council [will] do everything in our power to help all boys. Another National Executive Board member named Bolton Smith took charge of the inclusion of black boys but not without some reservations. Smith wrote, We need a national policy, with reference to this race one that shall be uttered by the head of the Nation and which all loyal people will attempt to apply. The beginning of such a policy should be a proclamation against [the] lynch law and especially against the lynching of Negroes by white men for that raises the race question in its most injurious aspects. He agreed with Beard that, I feel that the induction of Negroes into the Scout movement would lose us many white scouts whose parents would resent such connection. So he suggested that the black youth join another organization called the Marine Scouts which drilled with guns. A final player that sided with the inclusion of black boys was Edgar M. Robinson of the YMCA, the man that West took the place of in January 1911. Robinson wrote, I am sure the Negro boys would need the movement and to forget about the white boys that would be pulled from the program. He added that the man or boy who excludes the colored race needs the benefit of the Scout Movement and other movements from a spiritual standpoint more than the Negro does. West made his decision after reviewing all the available information and set out his case before the Executive Board of the BSA, who voted to include black boys in the movement. By 1928, Bolton Smith and another executive, Stanley Harris, had started Negro troops in 63 communities in the South. Clearly, councils had the latitude of not starting black troops but National took the fight to them and did it for the betterment of black boys, in spite of potential local non-support. Since many succeeded, one would have to assume that they did eventually receive the support of the council as well as the community, but that the single troop acted as they wanted, regardless of national policy. With regard to whether other parts of the country supported the Negro troop, Yes, Region IV based in Cincinnati was the first one to organize Negro troops by themselves. This probably helped Smith and Harris organize in Memphis and the rest of the South. Thats about all that I know on this one, since I have not taken the time to go into depth on this specific topic. It is interesting, though. Hope my diatribe cleared some things up. Miki