Miki101

Right Bob, Thant's my point. It does not appear in "Aids to Scoutmasteship" or "Varsity of Life" as noteed in BSA training manuals. It was a combination of Baden-Powell's concepts done by the BSA National leadership in the 1920's. It's much like if you say something enough times then people will believe it as a fact. That's all.

Thanks Bob, Now, please provide page number for the quote "Scouting is a game with a purpose."

Actually GB, In the spirit of accuracy, Baden-Powell never said "It's a game with a purpose." He said that "It's a game not a science." Most likely, the BSA National office under James West came up the the "game/purpose" quote. I'm sure that Kudu would agree. He's a student of B-P misquotes.

Thanks for your accent GB. Now, I have been in contact with Clan MacLaren North America and they emphatically endorse a Wood Badger's RIGHT to don the MacLaren tartan kilt as a non-voting MEMBER of Clan MacLaren. Both the VP (Barbara Gard) and the Mambership Secretary (Steven Lowry) of Clan MacLaren approve of it. That being confirmed. Is the MacLaren kilt a part of the "Official" BSA Uniform...NO...It is acceptable for a WoodBadger to wear the MacLaren tartan kilt...YES. (There are even times when I don my family's Ancient Scott Hunting kilt when I wear the BSA Class "A" shirt) Hope that this approval from Clan MacLaren North America helps clear up things. Dave Scott

Actually Greying Beaver, you are incorrect. Any beaded Wood Baddger is an honorary member of Clan MacLaren for an additional $10. http://members.aol.com/Rapmack/maclaren.html

Interesting Topic... This should help in this discussion... From: Sir Robert Baden-Powell, Scouting & Youth Movements, London: Ernest Benn Limited, 1929, pp. 58 66. Chapter VI, The Religious Aim The aim of the Boy Scout and Girl Guides Movements is now generally understood to be that of making happy, healthy, helpful citizens. In this material age, with distractions and pleasures more than ever accessible, the training of the spirit is becoming correspondingly difficult, and is too largely neglected. Our object in the Scout Movement is to give such help as we can in bringing about Gods Kingdom on earth by inculcating among youth the spirit and the daily practice in their lives of unselfish goodwill and co-operation. These virtues were laid down for such of us as are Christians by Christ, more particularly in the Sermon on the Mount; and they are equally applicable to all worshippers of God, whatever form of religion they may adopt. Therefore, in our Movement for youth we do not give preference to any one form of religion over another where all are working for the best in accordance with their respective beliefs. By the term Gods Kingdom I mean the prevalence of love in the world in the place of dominance of selfish interest and rivalry such as at present exists... The Promise that a Scout or Guide makes on joining has as its first point: To do my duty to God. Note that it does not say To be loyal to God, since this would merely be a state of mind, but to do something, which is the positive, active attitude...Thus we teach them that to do duty to God means, not merely to lean on His kindness, but to do His will by practicing love towards ones neighbor. If this could be brought about as a genera rule, then, indeed, should we find heaven upon earth... There is a similar situation in regard to creeds. The heads of different denominations in trying to come together in the greater bond of inter-denominational Christianity, find that their chief difficulty lies, not entirely with the other denominations, but rather with the more devoted adherents of their own particular faith. The development of broadmindedness, of goodwill and helpfulness, is urgently needed in the coming generation to bring creeds, and so to bring people, together. It is a duty of grave responsibility for all, but of great future importance and of extraordinary promise.

Thanks Ron 'Ole Boy, The book will be out in spring 2006. As for BP, I feel quite confident and he did not mind being known as the "Father of Scouting" whether or not he deserved the title. As for Seton, he would be the only other man to legitimately claim the title, since Beard was pretty much a "me-too" guy but who kept the passion in the BSA's outdoor program when Seton left in 1915. Quite simply, Beard became the symbol of the pioneering spirit in Scouting's history, which was beloved by the millions of Scouts whose lives he touched. Thusly, he was kept in BSA by West as a PR man. Dave Scott

Good reading, Ron. I see that you have been studying your Scouting history. You have hit upon several important themes with regard to the development of Scouting. One is that Theodore Roosevelt had an important role in the development of the Back to Nature movement in the United States, keenly advance by the YMCA and their quest to develop another way for boys to get closer to God. Another is that B-P used some material from Seton. He did so because Seton was the identifiable figurehead of the aformentioned Back-to-Nature movement. Therefore, Seton should get more credit than he was given for his Scouting work. However, do not underestimate Baden-Powell. You write, >> So I really don't belive that B-P was the great genius many make him to be in developing the >> scouting scheme. I know Seton deserves much more credit than he is given. Did I understand you to say that BP was not a genius in developing the Scouting scheme because of his borrowings from Seton? hmmmm Lets examine that. I guess that it all comes down to ones definition of genius. One definition of genius is extraordinary intellectual or creative power especially as manifested in creative activity. Are you really suggesting that BP does not fit this definition? The big advantage that BP had over Seton is that he was an internationally famous person already. It was his fame from Mafeking that got the world press to note his every move. Also, he had a heck of a promoter and advertiser in his publisher C. Arthur Pearson, who brilliantly brought out Scouting for Boys in serial parts. Before the Savoy Hotel meeting with Seton on October 30, 1906, BP had a Scouting scheme in the works already. That is a fact. What Seton did was to unknowingly provide the missing link, the structure, that BP lacked. BP already had the Patrol method, he called then clumps (8 boys per clump) to Setons bands (30+ boys per band). BP also had proficiency badges from his work with the army to Setons honors system. What BP did not have was the realization that these army methods would work with boys, yet Seton proved that they could work. Clearly BP borrowed Setons naming system of the patrols from Seton animal naming system along with the patrol calls of animals. We can see that from his own diary entry of that date. Specifically, the Savoy meeting was a watershed moment in the mind of BPs development of Scouting and the Patrol System and he ran with it. And what he developed from his worldly experience was Scouting (a small part of Setons Back-to-Nature movement)...and it was pure genius. Please refer to my new article n the Seton/BP plagiarism argument at: http://www.scouting.milestones.btinternet.co.uk/setonfeud.htm

Pine Tree Patrol 1930 edition $27.50 Chris Hartman Bookseller Morganton, NC 828-433-5478

Jack-Knife Cookery 1946 edition from Dutton (5th ed) $30- Book Mine Sacramento, CA 916.485.0342 books@bookmine.com

Hi Kahuna, You might also take a look at Wilder's 1919 book The Pine Tree Patrol.

How about today, May 17...it's the 105th anniversary of "Mafeking Day," the day that the garrison was relieved. Let's raise a glass to Major Karri Davies who led the Imperial Light Horse Regiment into the besieged city and allowed Col. Baden-Powell to exit the city as a hero and enter the world stage as a visionary. Hip Hip Hooray!

Hi Greg, In your opinion, what do you think would make the museum more interesting?

BP's Personal Diaries and Beard/ Seton artifacts.

Hi Semper, I think that you have something there. As I have found, there is relatively little known about West and I look forward to making more information about him public. Now Kahuna, I am interested in knowing more about your book. If you would care to contact me offline that would be fine also. I would like to know (the information that you are willing to share at this point in your project) about your research and preliminary findings. My studies do not go into the Scouting Professional in the sense that you have indicated, but I do know have information about them in the West/ National Office sense.

I have been a student of scouting history for some time and have wondered as to whether any troops tell the stories from the founding of Scouting or of the BSA. I know that I have told many a story to my boys as various topics come up in order to give them an historical perspective as to how the program developed and why it still matters. Are there any particular topics with regard to Erenst Thompson Seton or Dan Beard or James West or William Boyce or the American Boy Scouts or Baden-Powell or of the founding of the BSA/Scouting that are lacking in the print media available to a Scouter, that you would want to know more about? I would be interested in having your feedback as to the type of information that would be interesting to you. I am actucally quite obsessed with expanding my knowledge base and sometimes I need help in determining the direction of my research. YIS, dave scott

This site provides an excellent history of the Wood Badge. http://www.scouting.milestones.btinternet.co.uk/

Good stuff Rick, I really would like to disagree with you (I like a good discussion) but I think that you have made the correct analysis. > I think I remember reading in one of the biographies of Ernest Seton ("Black Wolf," maybe) that > while all the BSA's experienced youth leaders were off in Silver Bay, some sort of Coup took > place back in NY which removed Seton, Beard, and other experienced youth workers from their > decision-making positions and replaced them with bankers and lawyers like James West. I > believe that the author stated that the BSA actually incorporated twice, with this being the > second incorporation. Is that true? The name Boy Scouts of America was incorporated twice. The first was done by W.D. Boyce in February 1910 in tandem with two other gentlemen...their names escape me right now. The second was done in early November 1910, at which time, the 3 original incorporators turned the incorporation papers over to Colin Livingstone and about 15 others, including Seton and Beard. West was not in the picture at the time. The Silver Bay Camp in August 1910 was used by the BSA executives to decide which scheme to go with, Setons or BPs. There were reps present from both schemes and the decision was made in September to go with the BP scheme. Seton was clearly devastated. He had been pushing for his scheme to be incorporated nationally by the YMCA/BSA from the start, meaning the YMCA camping groups from 1903 - 1909 and even more obviously with the publishing of THE AMERICAN BOY SCOUT: THE OFFICIAL MANUAL OF WOODCRAFT FOR THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA manual in April/May of 1910, which was the 8th Edition of the Birch Bark Roll, but really the 7th BBR (1908) with a different title. West appears near the end of November and through December as someone to be interviewed for the post of Executive Secretary. Basically, this post would be the replacement for Edgar M. Robinson. Robinson was the true first Chief Scout Executive. West was the second. Wests recommendation came from Ernest P. Bicknell of the Red Cross who wrote Livingstone of 2 great executives to consider for the job. The winner was James E. West. Negotiations took place throughout December and West took the job for 6 months starting on January 2, 1911, complete with a salary funded by the Russell Sage Foundation. No Coup as you describe from Keller, but a choice to go with a proven winner in the Hero of Mafeking vs. the Indian scheme that had not made much of an imprint nationally, much less internationally when compared to BPs scheme. What you did see was an attempt to marginalize and consolidate all of the other programs that were blotting the scouting landscape. The BSA had to involve Seton and Beard, which they did, but it was mainly to get them on board in name and give the BSA legitimacy. What Keller fails to point out is that Beard wrote a letter to his editor at the PICTORIAL REVIEW magazine, Arthur Vance - the magazine that was publishing his Boy Pioneer column - that he could utilize the new BSA to his and Vances advantage in popularizing his own Boy Pioneers movement. Its facts like these that make this BSA history stuff is so darn interesting and why Im making an in depth study on it. dave scott

Grab a re-print of SCOUTING for BOYS, there are a couple in there that were used by BSA in 1910.

1. Kahunas Katalog by Joe Price 2. Fisk and Bearce's Collecting Scout Literature

As students of Scouting history we are bound to split hairs...therefore, I will. Were talking apples and oranges.BPs Patrol System was based upon boys creating their own patrols without the direction of an adult. That was because he intended his Scouting program to be an additional element to other programs like the Boys Brigade. As you know, he did not intend upon creating a self-running organization but thats ultimately what happened. To state that the BSA did not have a BP Patrol System would be correct in spirit, I guess, because the BSAs program was driven by the YMCA and they provided the ready-made organizational institutions in which potential boys could just sign-up and immediately start to scout. They did not have to create a patrol with 5 of their buddies like BP suggested in SCOUTING FOR BOYS, which was written for the independent boy that wanted to start scouting and was not already in a Boys Brigade or like minded program. So, yes, BP encouraged boys to form their own patrols, but he did specify that the boys should be of the same age. The Proof edition of the SM Handbook notes that there are to be elections within a patrol to elect a patrol leader and that there was to be a governing body made up of the SM and the PLs, ie. the Patrol Leaders Council. Those parts have always been in the US program. However, the fact that patrols were assigned on the basis of the 6 Principles, whether they be the YMCAs or anothers, just shows an interesting developmental difference between the origination of the 2 programs in 2 completely different countries. BPs program was simply a blueprint for US scouting. Thats all. Much like Setons program was a blueprint for English Scouting. The Silver Bay trial camp in August 1910 was a loose combination of the 2 (having elements being used from both plans under the direction of William Murray with Seton and Robinsons help) and BPs British blueprint ended up working the best. Hence the overwhelming decision to Americanize the 1910 Scouting Handbook in 1911 and further rid many British elements from an American Scouting program. BP's Patrol Method developed and Hillcourt saw it happen. He saw the failings in the BSA program at that time and formalized the direction in which the BSA was moving in the 1929 PL's Handbook. dave scott

Both the BP and the BSA campaign hats were made by Stetson with the BP type hat being used by him back in the 1896 Matabele Campaign in Africa. It did not have the crown in the front like the BSA hat did. Furthermore, today's Royal Canadian Mounted Police wears the "BP type" of campaign hat.

Kudu writes: > remember that the YMCA-influenced BSA did not use the Patrol System until William Hillcourt's arrival). Are you sure, Kudu...the first SM Handbook (1913 - 1914), p. 18, states: "Troops and Patrols. The Boy Scouts, themselves, are organized into troops and their subdivisions, the patrols. A patrol consists of eight boys, one of whom becomes the patrol leader." Hillcourt took the idea and improved it by writing the PL Handbook in 1929. dave scott

That "How to Pray" circular is actually a letter dated Feb 17, 1910 to "Dear Sir." I will quote only a couple of sentences using the US "Fair Use" statues: "I attach very little importance to prayers in a set form which a boy has to learn by heart. I have met so many men, even well brought up men, who said they did not know how to pray - had forgotten "their prayers!" He continued by providing 3 guidelines for praying and providing 3 samples of very simple, basic prayers. BP then closes with a statement that: prayers, when combined with a good day, equals a relationship with God that will last a lifetime. dave scott

Well said Kahuna, That is probably the most level-headed, non-inflammatory statement of opinion that is, I bet, really near the mark of fact. My examination of his writings clearly shows a belief in traditional church-going, mixed with patriotism, temperance and the ability to pray for guidance. Good work.