Miki101

Interesting stuff, Rick. I just have one very small, minute detail...it's Julian Harris Salomon. Keep fighting the good fight with the Baden-Powell/Seton/Beard history...Our organization's roots need to be known by all Scouts and Scouters. miki

Actually Ed, My information comes from too many years of obsessive research and from documents collected from archives worldwide. I've amassed over 11,000 pages of historical Scouting documents and 700+ books and magazines on Scouting's founding. I think about Scouting history way more than I should and write about it probably too much also. I'll have a book out about the BSA's founding in late 2006. You see, I have an understanding bride... David C. Scott

Thanks Trev! In addition, Montclair's original constitution was adopted April 1911. What months were Chicago, Vermont and Ohio chartered? Were they officially recognized by the National Office? And yes, the National Council was chartered as the "National Council" before any of this. I would very much like to have copies of your information for my files (I get asked this from time to time). Can you source this information? David C. Scott

According to offical BSA records, the first Council - "Local Council #1" - not troop, was chartered by the National Office on August 31, 1910 in the name of "Kinderhook Township, Columbia County, NY." I have the copies of the Constitutionand By-Laws in my historical files. David C. Scott

Well Trev, I have a copy of the bylaws of the first official council chartered by the National Office in my archive...I'll attempt to answer your trivia tomorrow...I'm old and have a bad memory. Interesting question. miki

I think that the re-design of the uniform was more basic than what has been previously mentioned. The complete failure of Boypower '76 led to an exodus from Scouting and caused Chief Scout Executive Jack L. Tarr to take drastic measures. This meant a full overhaul of the program beginning with bringing back the only true "Scouting" professional remaining, Hillcourt, to re-write the Handbook. Along with that, the uniform had to be tossed and the image given a "fresh" look. I guess that Oscar was as good as any to do it. One would have to go into archives to look up the correspondence about it, but I will check a Tarr interview that I have a transcript of to see if it was discussed in 1983. Daviud C. Scott

Don't just stop at one! Which one are you reading now, and which ones have your read? miki

John, Kudu is right. "Scouting is a game with a purpose" is Hillcourt. "Scouting is a game not a science" is Baden-Powell. And you'll not find that exact first quote in any original Baden-Powell writings, but as Kudu states, good luck with your research. miki

Signed pieces by the founders will put one into the very pricey range. That's because of the incresing rarity of finding high quality pieces. Also rare book, signed or not, by Baden-Powell, Seton and Beard get very big prices on eBay. Founder's artwork?...get a bank loan.

It looks late 1920's due to the "feel" of the neckerchief.

I was saddened to hear today of the tragic burning of Ernest Thompson Seton's final estate, the Seton Castle just outside Santa Fe, New Mexico. It had recently been purchased by the Academy for the Love of Learning from Seton's daughter, Dee. This place was the spiritual home of Seton's legacy - a place to study nature and Indian Lore. Pilgrims from all over the world made their way to the Castle for many years, even after his death in 1946, but now, it will be different. Most of you know that Seton's work is all over the Boy Scouts of America. He assisted in co-authoring in the 1910 BSA Handbook and was our first and only Chief Scout. The OA program was partially inspired from one of his lectures that Carroll Edson heard in 1915. The Cub Scout program was one that he initiated in the US but was not fully adopted until 1930. As a student of Scouting History, I am greatly saddened at the loss, but not so much for the fact that I had not been able to get to the Castle, but for those who knew it well and for the Seton family. http://www.kobtv.com/index.cfm?viewer=storyviewer&id=22770&cat=HOME David C. Scott

Trevorum writes: As a side note, it is interesting is that originally (back in the days of Seton, et al), BSA was seen as a radical social movement, far on the political left. Trev, Now how did you come to that conclusion? I'm pretty confident that BSA was financially/philosophically backed by virtually every mainstream/wealthy person of any social status at its very beginnings. Rockefeller, Roosevelt, Carnegie...etc. Furthermore, Baden-Powell was attacked by the far left Socialists both in England and in the US during his 1912 tour. That would suggest to me that BSA was not on the philsophical left at all. In fact in BSA, there were, perhaps, only two lefties of prominence in leadership, and those persons were Seton and BSA vice-President David Starr Jordan of Stanford University. The premier talking point of those lefties (not necessarily the far left) was pacifism entering World War I. As you recall, Seton was brutally chastised within BSA for being a pacifist and eventually forced to resign (for this and perhaps other stated reasons). Jordan, however, sort of faded away from BSA after the first 10 years, I would say that if lefty = pacifism, then you would have a slightly better case. But I would hardly call BSA being "far on the political left" because of its huge mainstream following at the time. In fact, I would say that very few contributors to BSA could be characterized as "far political left" because they would not have supported BSA at all and been the most vocal at calling BSA "a military organization" rather than an alleged character-builder. David C. Scott

Colin's on holiday until the end of the October.

Not to worry. Elleke Boehmer got railed in the British press for totally mis-reading the intentions of Scouting for Boys. Scouting experts and scholars recoginze her poor interpretations as revisionist that do not in any way rely upon what Baden-Powell actually wrote. The biggest attempt to make him look like some sort of pervert was her completly ignorant interpretation of "Continence." I will not elaborate on it any more in this forum due to a sense of proper decorum. David C. Scott

My favorite Eagle Board question is: "If you're accused in open court of being an outstanding Scout, is there enough evidence to convict you?" miki

My apoligies for the mis-read and improper quote attribution. Please continue your quest to improve your OA lodge and get them to the point where they will represent the ideals that they should have from your very important perspective. YIS

Greetings Akaluga, Have you read Charles Eastman's (Ohiyesa) BOY SCOUT TALKS book? The note that the link that Scoutndad cites contains a reference to that book, which was written 2 years prior to the formation of the OA, which was inspired by Eastman's dear friend, Ernest Thompson Seton. If you know anything about Seton, then you know that he lived his life with the values of the American Indian and believed himself to have been born into the wrong race. As for Eastmans book, it is dedicated to both the BSA and the Camp Fire Girls, and was written as a guide for them to successfully venture into the wilderness in pursuit of wisdom, health, and pleasure... (p. 1) In the book, he makes the point that the ideal Boy Scout is the American Indian rather than the frontiersman. Let us have more of this spirit of the American Indian, the Boy Scouts prototype, he writes. To leaven the brilliant selflessness of our modern civilization. (p. 190) At that time, the BSA clearly resembled the English program designed by Baden-Powell, which was more or less, based upon the backwoodsman. At this time, Seton was on his way out of the BSA and James West was taking full advantage of it by keeping any of Setons American Indian trappings from the program. However, Setons influence was too great because co-OA founder, Carroll A. Edson, was inspired by a Seton lecture to use Indian lore as a basis for his new Honor Camper Program in 1915. You state, A naming ceremony is very sacred, and the sacred ceremony is rarely performed for non-Indians. It is certainly NOT performed for entertainment. It certainly should NOT be performed by the Boy Scouts. It trivializes and mocks the various American Indian cultures." Yet Eastman writes, Here are some honor names for Boy Scouts, (p. 118), which includes some 40 examples. He also writes a chapter called Indian Ceremonies for Boy Scouts, (pp. 137 45). This book is clearly a primer to the average Boy Scout to re-enforce the importance of traditional American Indian values. If an OA lodges ceremony team is sub-par, then you should set out to correct it. But that does not mean that the program itself is evil or should be eliminated because of Political Correctness concerns. You should also give a heavy study to the formation of he Camp Fire Girls, again with a heavy Seton influence, and a thorough study of Seton, too. As for Eastmans book, you really should give it a read before moving forward with your research. Should you need further sources for the above studies, then let me know and I will provide them. David C. Scott

Hi Buddy, In response to your inquiry as to the history of the BSA Oath, let me give you a brief background. When Baden-Powell issued his SCOUTING FOR BOYS back in January 1908, the Scout Oath was as follows: On my honour I promise that 1. I will do my duty to God and King. 2. I will do my best to help others, whatever it costs me. 3. I know the scout law, and will obey it. However, in 1911 after new Managing Secretary James E. West came aboard, he sought to completely Americanize the movement to fit American boys. Thereby, the newly re-incorporated BSA (October 1910) formed 4 committees to do it, which would be just before the first official HANDBOOK FOR BOYS went to press in June .The committee that applies here is the Committee on Standardization of the Scout Oath, Scout Law, Tenderfoot, Second-Class and First Class Scout Requirements. It was Chaired by former YMCA official, Prof. Jeremiah Jenks of Cornell University. The rest of the members were George D. Porter, Edgar M. Robinson, G. W. Hinckley, G. E. Johnson, Clark W. Hetherington, Arthur A. Carey, John L. Alexander and James E. West. Originally there was a debate as to what the Scout Law should be called, and for a short time it was known as the Scout Vow. The first version of the Oath was as follows: On my honor I will do my best: 1. To do my duty to God and my country; 2. To help other people at all times; 3. To obey the Scout Vow. By mid-April 1911, vow was changed back to law. On May 3rd, the Oath had been modified to: On my honour I will do my best: 1. To do my duty to God and my country: 2. To help other people at all times; 3. To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, morally straight and obey the Scout Laws. On May 6th, the final report by the Committee on Standardization was issued and the Scout Oath as we know it was adopted: On my honor I will do my best: 1. To do my duty to God and my country, and to obey the scout law; 2. To help other people at all times; 3. To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight. Hope this helps, David C. Scott

Hi Buddy, I can probably work something up in a couple of days. I'll get into my archive and put together a cohesive statement for you on Tuesday. miki

Hi Buddy, How far back do you want to go on that history of the Oath and Law, and do you want the English or BSA development of it? Heck, we can go back to 1904 or so if you really want to. miki

Neil brings up a very good point about training. I did not have children at the time I was CC, either. However, I lived and breathed Troop 750, which helped the parents know that I was serious about helping their sons. Alot of that confidence was gained from attending the WoodBadge. And because of that course, I had more confidence and made better decisions because they were based on solid knowledge of BSA policy rather than emotional conjecture. miki PS: Don't forget to "Put a backbone where your wishbone is." - Dan Beard

Greetings ahull, I too was a young CC at the age 28. The biggest challenge was to convince the old timers that I was "for real." I did so by thinking out my answers before speaking, listening to every opposing viewpoint and always explaining my decisions. Plus, I adhered to 2 pieces of sage advice. First, from Dad," It's better to be thought of as a fool that to open your mouth and remove all doubt" and second, Davy Crockett's motto (used by Dan Beard), "Be always sure you are right then go ahead." It also did not hurt that I took all of the SM training courses and studied BSA policy ad nauseum. That gig lasted for about 8 years until I moved out of District 3 years ago and became the Chartered Organization Rep for my new unit. Good luck with the politics...Rookie... Miki

Rick, I have a copy that I can scan for you...It's simply a re-printed article authorized for BSA usage that he originally wrote for his weekly column in THE SCOUT. I do not have the date originally published. Copyright for this article is enforced and usage granted by the Scout Association of England based at Gilwell. Provided that you have honorable intent, they should not mind if you re-print it for your site. Just be a good scout and e-mail Paul Moynihan the Chief Archivist first. You might mention that Dave Scott, that American author guy that he allowed to dive into his archives, thought that you should contact him. Miki

Hi Kudu, FYI, "Scouting is a Game not a Science" quote is the title of Baden-Powell's article printed in Boys' Life January 1932, p. 5. miki

Hey there Rick, Agreed. It's just one of those fun BSA myths that have been spun over the years. They do not detract from the program itself but if one wants to go for the actual facts, then preciseness is important. Although Baden-Powell never said that quote, it can easily be inferred from the Forward in "Aids to Scoutmastership" as well as in "Varsity." I like the "prairie dog" view. Nothing malicious, just mis-informed opinions. Miki