MikeS

Dear all - Kxiti nkski alnixsi! I speak some Lnape. As someone pointed out - there are indeed modern speakers of Lenape, however, most do not live in ancestral lands (not to go all political here but little things like being forced off your land onto a Reservation and beaten by teachers for speaking one word of your native language are just a few of the reasons you don't hear it much anymore) Unami (mainly Southern) and Munsi are still spoken - not only in OK, but also in Reserves in Ontario. The OA has borrowed just about all of its Lenape words from the Northern Unami dialect. The problem with that is that it was written by German and Dutch (and Swedish) Moravian Missionaries (members of the "United Brethren")and these guys were....well, Missionaries, not Linguists, so they wrote the language as they heard it with "German ears". The "Moravian spelling conventions", as they are called, do not completely convey the actual sounds of the language. For example, Lenape makes use of what are called "preaspirated consonants" (consonants preceded by a puff of air). If any of you know any Finnish, Finnish is perhaps the best example of a European language that does the same thing (this is the 'h' before consonants in Finnish). German ears probably heard this, but had no idea how to properly convey it in writing so they used the closest spelling convention they had (in this case the German hard 'ch' as in "acht" - eight). So, the 'ch' in Leanpe can have a few different pronunciations - you have to know which to use. There are some spelling conventions used with vowels as well - most notably the vowel spelt 'oa'(it's the 'aw' in "saw", or "law" - NOT two separate sounds, i.e. oh-ah). The Moravian spellings and the lack of knowledge of proper Lenape grammar has resulted in, unfortunately, most Lenape OA words being passed down with very incorrect pronunciation (not to mention the travesty of "Lenape vigil names"). Unfortunately, the Admonition is one of the words pronounced incorrectly. BTW - if anyone does wish to know how many of the Lenape OA words are pronounced (along with their modern Southern Unami forms) drop me a post - being a Linguist, I did a little "study" a while ago and would be happy to pass it along - sorry, but it will NOT contain the admonition - I will need to delete that from the list.

WOW!! I'm a little speechless after reading the article by this Salza character! The dude has definately been brainwashed somewhere along the way! While there is no denying some of the OA rituals are borrowings from the Masonic traditions, this guy obviously has absolutely no clue! I guess it just goes to show what people can read into things they do not take the time to try and understand or gain knowledge of. Our rituals had to be taken from somewhere - guess that was the most logical place to look towards. If his srticle wasn't meant to be taken so seriously, it would actually be kind of funny - the notes, suposedly written by a Catholic priest, reference "fire rituals and witchcraft" but yet what's one of the first things that's done in most churches before a mass? Yep, spark up all those candles! I can remember an old priest in my parish growing up during his sermon ane day (I was too young to remember what was going on in the world to provoke him to say this), but I remember him clearly saying that you can not be a Catholic AND a Freemason. I mean this was maybe late 1970's or so. Kind of shocked me because the guy in the pew in front of me was wearing one of those big honkin' masonic rings Hey I think I need to sign off now - there's some sketchy looking dudes in long red robes speaking Spanish and carying what look to be like pitchforks coming towards me......hey one of them has a bunch of wood and a torch....but I don't see any marshmallows...what's up with that?!

Yes, Geekster189 is correct - the Jumpstart page does not pronounce it correctly; unfortunately, no one, it seems, has ever bothered to learn the correct Northern Unami pronunciation of the word (the dialect of Lenape / Delaware the OA has borrowed it from ). I would love to see it officially taught correctly; if you're going to borrow from another language, regardless of what that language is, at least learn to pronounce it correctly; I'm not saying you have to have native-speaker pronunciation, but it's sad to see some of the pronunciations given and passed on to new OA members. I wonder if there is a way to petition the "OA powers that be" to consider officially re-adopting the word and teaching the correct pronunciation?

LOL - Tokala, yeah you're right! Let me yet again rephrase (brain cramp!) - obviously if the language is still a living language check with the local Native groups, etc. If a dead language is being used, such as Timucua, you kind of have a few issues - if there exists a dictionary and grammar for the language (fortunately Timucua has both available)I would strongly recommend using both to arrive at grammatically correct forms for names. If neither exist - I'm kind of curious to know, for those who are using them, what is being used as a resource to base names on (or do you just not use that language and go with say Lenape)?

Sorry - I should rephrase that - What I meant was that the Lenapi names usually given and ones I have seen are "supposed to be Lenape", but unfortunately because of the disregard for grammar, correct forms of the words, etc., they end up being more or less jibberish. I'm all for using names with a more local flavour, but I think that I would want to check with the local Native groups, etc. for permission and guidance.

The names are supposed to be Lnape, but as I understand it many Lodges also use languages more local to them. What you have to keep in mind though is that most "names" are contrived with very little regard for proper Lnape grammar and the meanings of words are very frequenlty 'extended'(using "horse" to mean some sort of vehicle for example). As a result, most of these "names" are totally ungrammatical and words used so out of proper context as to make them total jibberish. A very frequent error I see happening is the use of adjectives with inanimate grammatical markers being used to modify nouns which are animate. I can't speak for Lodges that use local languages - I have not seenmany examples but I would hope that they are also in contact with local speakers who are able to provide correct forms.

I've been reading with interest the various views regarding the use of American Native culture in the BSA and OA. It's quite a heated topic and opinions are strong on both sides. I don't wish to add to the arguement but I must say that if NA terms, and imagery are to be used, at least have the common courtesy to learn what is right and what is wrong, what is appropriate and what is considered very offensive. I was quite shocked, for example, to learn that most Lnape terms used in the OA are not even close to what the correct Lnape words actually are to say nothing of how they are pronounced or even used! Indeed, many of the words found in OA nomenclature are either entirely made up or are grammatically very incorrect to the point of making aboslutely no sense(including the WWW and the "Admonition" - sorry folks). I would encourage anyone involved in portraying native culture to at least research it enough and get opinions (if possible),as some have done here, of local Nations. As to not finding some of the AoL and OA ceremonies offensive, let me ask a rhetorical question posed by a few (Native) people I've talked to.... If a group of people from a hypothetical island which had a respected youth group were to construct a replica of a European church and hold initiation ceremonies for that group loosely based on the Christian (be it RC or Protestant) Mass, complete with the leader attired in "proper" priest's/pastor's vestments would you find that offensive?? This post is not meant to "bash" anyone, just food for thought....