Mike F

2 quick thoughts: 1. You're a very young unit with almost no youth with leadership experience. When they've never seen it modeled, it's hard for them to grasp. It sounds like the expectations might be too high for this leader in this situation at this time. I've found when scouts get pushed into unfamiliar territory (expectations), they can often respond with more inaction (paralysis) than wrong action (mistakes). When the fear of making a mistake gets overwhelming, they stop cold and give you blank looks. If this might be the case, I recommend taking back more of the planning and concentrate more on getting your youth leader really comfortable at leading the plan you have helped plan. As his confidence and skills grow, gently push his comfort zone, but do it in smaller, more gradual, increments. 2. Even if you have to keep running more than you should during his entire term of office, youll be working on a long-term plan to help the entire group transition to a more scout-led program. As the junior scouts see the leadership modeled above them, theyll be that much further along when they are the leaders in a year or so. It takes time for a culture change like this to become self-sufficient. (CAUTION: Its easier in the short-term to just do everything yourself. Never forget youre trying to build their confidence, skills, and overall self-reliance.)

In the troops I have served, only the troop-level positions were used for POR credit for advancement. But I have found the patrol-level positions to be an excellent training ground for beginning leaders to learn and grow. The scouts are all encouraged to seize these opportunities to show their buddies they are ready, willing, and able to handle more responsibility on the next cycle. The ones who do so have always moved up quickly. -mike

We used almost exactly the method described by Beavah about 3 years ago. There were some rocky stretches in the trail, but it has worked great. The guys have really learned how to lead - starting in the patrol when the PL and older members take on the responsibility of bringing up the new guys. That's a whole lot more responsibility than just being the "phone call guy" with a bunch of same-age peers. Real world results: - SPLs with enhanced experience as PL of mixed group have been much stronger and effective. - Same for all other senior leadership positions. - Campout participation is up about 300%. - Participation by high school age scouts (who used to hide in Venture patrol) has gone from almost non-existent to about 60-70% on any given outing. (Why? Because now they know they have real responsibility and job to do.) Our mistakes in implementation: - Not communicating clearly enough with adult leaders and parents. - Not working with Instructors and PLs quickly enough to keep guys advancing toward First Class. (These guys need to be thoroughly prepared to move forward with advancement activities.) As always, your milage may vary. -mike

Blazer, Lots of good advice in here - heed it carefully. One of our troops had similar growth spurt - went from about 50 to 135 in 5 years. They couldn't handle it and the program suffered greatly. They were boy-run, simply exceeded the boy's ability to handle it, and the adults didn't know how to get that balance right. Adults quickly took over most aspects of the program with SPL mostly just calling for opening and closing ceremony. New SM tried to force it back to boy-run too quickly. Membership now falling to about 65 and there are lots of hard feelings. A couple of other local troops are way up over 100 and quite stable. But they are both definitely adult-run and the scouts are not getting the full scouting experience. Sure - the scouts are all advancing at a rapid rate, but that's just because the adults are running them all through the classes. I consider it a travesty. I have seen troops limit the number to join each year - with exceptions for siblings, etc., and think that's a smart way to handle it. Hopefully you have a good SM Roundtable where others can learn about your success and try to duplicate it so all will be stronger. Good luck! -mike

Is it really necessary that all troops be the same? I support two troops. One is up-front with their preferrence that campouts be males-only and the other has a lot of moms on campouts. They are both delivering an excellent scouting program. In our community, there is certainly room for both. We also have troops with a strong emphasis on high adventure and others who work hard on merit badges and advancement. Some troops work hard on fund raising all year so they can go to far-off summer camps in the mountains and some are more bare bones - sticking to local camps, state parks, and ranches. Please don't take it too personally. One size does not fit all. -mike

We did this a couple of years ago - mystery meat was rabbit. Guys really enjoyed it. (Stewing worked better than grilling....) Thanks for the reminder - it's time to dust that one off again! Wonder what kind of exotic meat we can find at the big market downtown!! -mike

Baden, RE: "I may be getting a little old to do the High Adventure thing" Ha - perish the thought - this is what keeps us young! I met a SM near Louisa Falls a few years ago that was in his 60s and had been taking crews there every year for over 20 years. My new hero, for sure!! After you get a good shower and a few good meals under your belt, I'll see you out on the trail next summer! -mike

Prayers are with you all. -mike

It has been about 6-7 months since I wrote those words. Since this is a work in progress, a few words on status: SPL/ASPL have continued to eat with adults and it's going great. Gives us a little more time to work with them informally and keeps them out of the way of younger PLs as they lead their patrols. Competition at campouts to see which patrol wins bragging rights (AKA, "The Golden Spoon") is fierce. Guys are cooking more and having fun. (Most of the time....) Since SPL/ASPL and SM/ASMs are all judges, we have an excuse to check in on cooking in progress. We are on the lookout for those raw pork chops, but turn a blind eye to the thermonuclear chili. More than culinary skills, we're on the lookout for good examples of teamwork. -mike

JB, This isn't exactly what you were looking for, but might be helpful. Our council has an annual high-adventure rally that has become very good. They review all of the tour requests on file every year and invite troops with unique, interesting trips to come set up a simple booth to share their experience and spread the word. They always have picture boards and handouts to describe what they did and how they did it. Some have videos or slideshows running. There are always some groups representing BSA's high adventure bases - telling about their experience there. These are very useful information for those troops who haven't made the move beyond local state parks, etc., but the really great ones are the troops that put together their own trips. Those folks are a wealth of information and very inspirational. We always take a group of our older scouts who are interested in high adventure and they come away excited. "If those guys can do it, so can we! Let's go!!" After making contacts at the H-A Rally, I've taken a team of my scouts to visit other units to give them a presentation and get them started on their own trips. Several years ago, while paddling the Boundary Waters with my group of scouts, we ran into a group from Troop 1, Alexandria, LA. I really enjoyed talking to their grizzled SM, who I only remember as Mr. O. He told me they had been bring their whole troop up every summer for many years and had 4-5 crews on the water at that time. He was with the youngest group (11 & 12 yr olds) who paddled in a bit, set up a base camp, and took daily excursions to explore the surrounding area, without hauling all the gear. He said every year they come back a little older, bigger, and experienced - ready for more. His oldest group that year hit the water with plans to cover over a hundred miles. The most amazing part was the cost: less than $300 per boy and adults were free. They had invested in the gear (Duluth packs, etc.) and bought all their food in bulk. Had a team of scouts and adults that repackaged the 50-pound bags of rolled oats, beans, etc. into crew food packs. The only expense they had at the border was renting canoes. (Also, of course, had to pay the wilderness camping fees non trivial.) Simply amazing! If you can pull off a "roll your own" trip, I'd definitely recommend going for it. However, something like wilderness canoeing can be pretty daunting. Even more so for white water or real mountaineering. If you think your guys (and adults) are interested in making something like this an annual trip, its worth the investment. If your guys want to sample different things every year, it might be more difficult to get the core group properly trained and equipped to do it all. Your mileage may vary. Happy trails! -mike

In the units I serve, the SM makes the call and camping means nights outdoors - no cabins, no ships, etc. I thought a bit about giving the PLC an opportunity to consider this one, but they have their plate more than full already and I wouldn't want to distract them from their primary responsibilities. -mike

I thought I knew a lot about this subject, but have learned some new stuff tonight. John-in-KC - I've never heard about COR's authority to tell Commish to butt out of something like this and want to know more. Is this documented somewhere? What if parents/scout appeal to council and national? Will COR's position still hold weight? Thanks! -mike

Bill, Sounds like your son's troop uses mixed age patrols right from the beginning. This isn't necessarily bad at all. With a little luck, they have a spirit of welcoming the new guys like younger brothers and your son will benefit from working and learning from older guys who already know the ropes. It's normal for the older, more experienced guys to be the leaders and, indeed, it's preferable. Can you imagine the chaos if one of the brand new guys was put in charge of a group (patrol) containing several boys with several years of experience? That would be a very challenging leadership position - and probably very frustrating for the new guy. This even holds true for Asst PL, because APL's the one in charge when PL has a conflict and can't make a meeting or campount. But don't be mistaken - every member of a patrol has a job - even if it's merely to be a responsible, active patrol member right now. For the first year, your son and his buddies will have their hands full working on their fundamental scout skills and earning their way toward First Class. Next spring, your son and his buds will be some of the older guys when a new crop of incoming Webs join up. Then your son's group will be able to shine as they help the new "new guys" learn the ropes. Your son's time to lead will come when he's ready. It's really best if he has a chance to solidify his basic scout skills and gain the respect of his fellow scouts before he is elevated to a leadership position. By "best," I mean your son is more likely to have a positive experience and be ready to grow in preparation for the next level and its associated challenges. For now, let him enjoy the ride!

In my son's troop, you have to be 1st Class to carry a sheath knife and the boy's know that right will be revoked at the first hint of misuse. In 13 years, no scout has lost the right to carry and use his sheath knife. It is worth noting, in those 13 years, we've never had a significant injury from sheath knives, but we certainly cannot say the same for folding knives, axes, and saws. The expectations are high and the boys meet them consistently. It does draw some wide-eyes and sputtering comments from other scout leaders who don't understand the rules. -mike

Its Me, Most of us are borderline rabid about scouting, but I expect most of us have had similar thoughts at some time. And I know almost all of us have had to work with our boys when they get to about 13-14 and their enthusiasm starts to sag. Every boy is different and has to make his own choices. (Families, too.) My oldest boy (19) is a gifted athlete with a passion for basketball and love of baseball, soccer, and about anything else. It was a struggle for a few years as he balanced competitive sports, advanced academics, and scouts. As he progressed into high school and the competition became more intense, he found it harder and harder to make the teams. In spite of his hard work, he became frustrated at the increasing amount of bench time and it became obvious there wasnt likely to be an athletic scholarship in his future. Fortunately, about the same time, he had grown into one of the most respected leaders in his scout troop and had some incredible opportunities to lead and really grow and shine. He continued to satisfy his sports thing by running track and playing in a local basketball league. He graduated at the top of his class, earned Eagle and is now living his dream as a cadet at the US Air Force Academy, with a bigger dream right in front of him becoming an officer and fighter pilot. No hes not playing basketball on the USAFA team, but hes killer on the squadron intramural team. Next son (15) was also active in sports throughout the year, but backed off on the sports in the last year and is now in the HS marching band, which takes up a ton of time, too. While I dont think hell ever be First Chair in the band, he gets a lot of satisfaction by his opportunities in scouting. Several times this fall, we started driving after the Fri football game so he could join his troop on a campout. Yes its a bit crazy, but he felt a responsibility to his patrol and was adamant that he needed to be there when they woke up on Saturday morning to start the day. How could I say no to a commitment and dedication like that? One thing youll find in Boy Scouts is that its not a father-son (or parent-son) program. Yes most of the adult leaders are parents, but all parents are not required to attend all events. In fact, it would be chaos if every scout had a parent there. If the adult leaders are fulfilling their role properly, you would be hard-pressed to identify the parent-son connections, because the adult leaders are there for all the scouts not just their own kid. Thats one of the benefits of scouting. Although I have a lot of back-woods and leadership skills to share, I dont know everything and my sons benefit from learning from others, too. And, especially as they get older, they actually listen to the others better and they learn valuable skills in working with a variety of caring adults. If youre really lucky, as they get older still, your boy might comment, Hey, dad, you really did know what you were talking about. Surprise, surprise. Will wonders never cease? Your mileage may vary. -mike

Campcrafter, I was in a similar situation with my oldest son's first troop. I stayed quiet and observed for the first few months. After studying the handbooks (SM, SPL, PL), I was certain we were missing major components of the BSA program and started working to help others understand so we could change. My efforts were fruitless and the SM made it clear my assistance was not desired, so I backed off. My son's entire Webelos den had joined same troop and they seemed to be doing OK. After a year, my son announced he was done. I convinced him to go check out some other troops, we found a better fit, he transferred and stayed with it. Son was active all the way to HS graduation, earned Eagle, and even volunteered to help with troop JLT during recent spring break. Unfortunately, none of his Webelos buddies stayed with scouting after their second year, but we couldn't convince any of them to give his new troop a try. As Avid has already pointed out, it's easiest to just move, but I'm glad you're going to make a run at helping his troop get on track. Good luck and let us know how it goes! -mike

Vigil-Hiker, I forgot to mention - I liked your comment about outgoing SPL sticking around to help mentor the new SPL. We made that a requirement for the job a couple of years ago - official part of the SPL job is helping the new SPL for a couple of months to smooth the transition. It has been working great. Not only do the former SPLs not disappear overnight, they have all been sticking around, helping with troop leader training, and even visiting when they're home from college. I strongly encourage everyone to consider pushing this expectation. Let the former SPLs know they are valued leaders and keep them in the game. -mike

Vigil-Hiker, The rules have changed some in the last 20 years. ASPL now is selected by SPL with a sanity check from SM to make sure SPL is not just selecting his buddy. Same holds for almost all troop-level positions of responsibility. This is spelled out in the SPL and SM handbooks. The only positions determined by election in any way are SPL and PL. msnowman, The SM Handbook specifically mentions age and rank as a couple of things that can be considered if a troop decides to set requirements for positions. This really should be done by the PLC if things are working right. But the SM can recommend something. I don't have SM Handbook in front of me, but believe there is something in there about SM approving list of candidates for SPL, too. This makes sense since the SM and SPL are a team. I know of one case where SM would not allow a popular scout on the ballot because his scout spirit was seriously lacking and he had not regularly been attending meetings or campouts. He had a SM conference to talk to the wannabe candidate. Result: Major course correction in the scout's attitude and attendance - he was elected in the next turnover and did great. The reason there are different qualifications for different troops reflect things like troop's size, age, rank structure, etc. For a very young troop, it wouldn't make sense to require SPL candidate to be Star/Life or age 16. I know of some troops that use these requirements as a way of nudging the older guys to stay in the game and step up to the plate. I know of another local troop that forces older guys to run for SPL by requiring Eagle candidates to have served as SPL. This is NOT ALLOWED in BSA! Any of the PORs listed in Scout Handbook Eagle requirements will suffice. I wish I had more time to roll in to correct this, but have my hands full with the other troops I serve. If you only have one potential candidate that meets your current requirement, it is time to open up the requirements to reflect current age and rank demographics. Cheers! -mike

My rule is I'll play anything they want, but if it's trash (as defined by foul language on inappropriate lyrics), it goes in the first trash available. The first time I used this rule was on 2-day drive to ski trip. After listening to their "stuff" for about 5 hours, I declared it time to introduce them to an ancient heavy metal cassette of mine that I hadn't listened to in 20 years. To my extreme embarrassment, out pops the definition of foul language and out comes the cassette. At the next gas stop, I made sure they saw me toss it in the trash. Nobody said a word, but their eyes were wide and they knew I was serious. As the trip progressed, the guys made sure to tell me when it was time to stop one of their tapes/CDs before the next song was played. No problem - what are we listening to next?

Wow hard list! 1. Philmont 75 completing Kit Carson Man program (last year before it became Rayado Man), which included a 1-day gut-buster from Dan Beard (at the northern tip) to Line Camp (below Abreau on the southern border). 2. OA Vigil Honor 76 3. #1 sons Eagle 05 Runners up: - Watching #1 son excel as Crew Chief at Philmont in 04 after struggling in same job at BWCA in 03. - Working with a lad for several years who was straying into serious trouble, convincing him to strive for his last leadership position, observing a miraculous change as he blossomed, and speaking at his Eagle CoH. - The occasional hallelujah when that young man youve worked with since he bridged is serving in his first POR and the leadership light comes on in his eyes. Looking forward to: - More of the same with sons #2 & 3! - And maybe more after that!! Thanks for bringing back the memories! -mike

Anne, This might not be the answer you're looking for, but we encourage scouts to buy tents of their own. We have about 4 Eureka troop tents they can borrow, if required, but most of the boys are proud to have their own and they definitely take better care of them. For beginner scouts, a cheap tent from local sports discount store will serve them fine for a few years. As they get older (and bigger), we encourage the parents to consider a good tent for Christmas and birthday gifts. In early November, we send an email to parents with list of suggestions and links to online discounters. As for size, many folks recommend no more than 2 per tent. Primary reason is discipline. More in tent can tend to get more rowdy and talkative into the night. I personally don't hold by this comment and have found a word from the SPL will settle things down. In the troop of my youth, we used Army surplus tents big enough to handle an entire patrol and found it was great for patrol unity. Yes - there might be more chatter, but that's what you expect when you get a bunch of friends together. Isn't that the point of patrols to begin with? Let them carry on for a little while, then remind them it's going to be a big day tomorrow - time to sleep. -mike

I think rj hit on the key - service. Think Brotherhood of Cheerful Service. They don't grow in brotherhood if they're not working together on something meaningful that they can take pride in. Consider some options: Chapter service project to clean up local park, maintain trails, build a bridge, etc. Get out the word through SM Roundtable, phone calls, emails, etc. to your local Chapter OA members. "Calling all Arrowmen! Our park needs your help!! Etc." First turnout will probably not be huge, but make it fun and meaningful, and you'll get more the next time as word spreads. If no local parks come to mind, I'll bet your closest Boy Scout camp could use some help with something. Make it a day event, or plan on a campout. After you get the guys from different local troops working together, you might find them able/willing to take on other projects, like providing significant support to summer Cub Scout day camp. Maybe even helping staff local Camporees. Good luck! -mike

karent, First - Welcome to the virtual campfire!! There's lots to learn in here!!! Merit Badge requirements must be met to the letter - no more and no less. See specific references in discussion on adding requirements: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=127606 There is some allowance for substituting some required MBs for Eagle, but those are usually based on a physical inability to complete the requirements and not on a scout with learning disabilities who has a more difficult time completing them. Hopefully one of my fellow forum addicts with references at their fingertips will provide more details shortly. I would recommend contacting your Council office if you need more help. They should have someone there with responsibility to assist with disabled scouts. Good luck! -mike

OneHour, One of my sons was there, too. Similar report, although they were lucky enough to fly in a 4-person Cessna and he thought that was "pretty cool." I have a problem with this activity, though. My son described the day as sitting for hours in a big hangar listening to briefings, going on the flight, then receiving signed Aviation Merit Badge cards at the end of the day. Upon reviewing the requirements for the merit badge (http://meritbadge.com/mb/025.htm), I see lots of requirements that say explain, define, demonstrate, etc., but none that say to just sit in a building with 600 other scouts and listen to someone talk about it.

Concur with OGE. BOR is not a retest - just a review to make sure everything was done. For POR, it's appropriate to ask questions about what they did, what was the hardest, what they learned, etc. For skills, it's appropriate to ask how they learned about the knots, lashings, etc., but not to hand them ropes and ask for demonstration. For campsite gadget mentioned earlier, it's appropriate to ask them what they made. Then continue asking what did you use it for, did you find it useful, etc.? Have you made another one or something like it since you passed the requirement? You said you found it useful, but you haven't made one since then - why not? If you find things like this in Boards of Review, it's time to provide SM some feedback that the guys could use a recharge on campsite gadgets. Maybe the next campout could include a patrol competition to see who can develop the most elaborate campsite with pack rack, lantern stand, etc. In short use active program to provide refreshers not threat of failure from TC at BOR. TC run BOR is not supposed to be another test step for the scouts. Think of them instead as a quality control step where the TC gains insights and ensures the troops (and SMs) program is on track. It should be very rare when the BOR discovers a scout was totally deficient in a requirement and has to insist on remedial action before advancement is approved.