BadenP

Interesting discussion however in all my years in scouting I have only seen one COR who even wore a uniform. Most of them consider themselves to be more of a outside observer than an active part of any unit.

BSA24 The "real outrage,and what is wrong with some scout leaders today", are those who feel they need to earn youth awards and reliving their boy scout days all over again instead of doing their jobs as Scoutmasters, such as yourself. I find your own justifications to support your position to be laughable. If you are not having fun being a scoutmaster and helping boys become leaders then maybe you should step down and join another organization where you can earn all the badges you want, since that seems to be the only motivating factor for you.

BSA24 Twocub answered your question the best. Maybe it is time for you to stop playing boy scout and worrying about earning rank/skill awards and instead concentrating on delivering the best quality program to your youth. The ranks are for the boys NOT the adults, it is time for you to let go of your childlike desires. There is plenty of recognition you can earn as an adult scouter that will teach you to develop and deliver a quality program.

Gentlemen It is called Boy Scouts of America for a reason, BSA24 you need to grow up. The adults are there to mold boys into leaders NOT to digress into their own childhood fantasies. That is a major problem with adult leaders in too many troops today, all they do is play like the boys instead of serving as role models and leaders for them. Yet we wonder why we continue to lose more boy scouts each year than any other scout program, I think some of the responses here answers that question very clearly.

hotair That is not correct. LFL is part of the same corporate status as the BSA who has the authority over all LFL units via the council SE's.

Abel LFL/Exploring are for the most part paper units with a highly transient membership which was developed as someone already stated to appease the United Way. In most councils it is a generic number put into the budget each year. In the true sense of the word it is not really a "scouting" program at all.

Gong I get your point just fine, you don't get mine. Leadership/Decision making in a venturing crew is by concensus of all the members, and that is very different from a troop. It is nice that you want to wear a Venturing uniform to your meeting, but you should not and can not expect the other crew members to follow suit. You seem to be fixated on leadership using the troop method but you are no longer in a troop. You really do need to read the VLM so you can understand the difference between the troop and crew, the methodology is VERY different.

Gong Even though you are the crew president it is NOT your place or right to make that request of the other officers or the crew members. Again uniforming is NOT and never has been part of Venturing, there are NO methods of Venturing. I suggest you get a copy of the Venturing Leaders Manual and really read the parts about how the crew is set up to function and make decisions, it is very different from a boy scout troop.

Gong The situation you describe in your last post rarely if ever occurs in Venturing. Remember the crew as a whole decides if and what they want concerning distinctive clothing, not just the officers. However there are NO rules of what and when to wear any uniform in Venturing since it is not part of the program.

lallen13 (GONG - Sorry guy but uniforming is NOT a method of Venturing.) They are NOT bound by the same regs as boy scouts, they can wear it once a month, twice a year or not at all. Read the Venturing Leaders Manual for correct information instead of taking incorrect advice here. Papadaddy wins the prize for the correct answer.

pere "Thats not how parenting works" - Peregrinator What a crock of bull Pere, you are either not a parent or are a total control freak over your kids lives. Kids should be allowed to make their own choices throughout their lives, with some parental supervision. You are not going to let your kids try something they really want to do to see if they will enjoy it? I raised two sons who are in their late teens now, both became Eagle Scouts, their own choices, one plays football the other is taking flying lessons. You think as a parent it would be right of me to tell them no no those activites are too dangerous you might be seriously hurt? Heck NO you need to give your kids some leeway as they get older it is part of them growing into responsible adults. All I can say to you Pere is that I truly feel sorry for your kids.

Fehler Now you are just comparing apples to oranges and it is not applicable with the topic at hand. Besides the positions you mention are transitory in nature and many probably out of date.

AHG Mom Then why don't YOU follow your own advice and let your daughter experience GSUSA as well as the AHG and decide for herself what she likes best. Or are you always making all of your daughters decisions for her. Just because as a kid you did not like the GSUSA doesn't mean your daughter will have the same experience.

JM Not run like a troop means exactly that, a Venturing crew meeting is not as formal as a troop one, we don't start out with reciting the Venturing code, or go into patrols to work on advancement skills, no scoutmaster minute. The crew youth leaders organize the group into what needs to be done at that moment, planning a trip, giving a presentation and whatever else needs to be done, and there is always socialization time. The Venturing Leaders Handbook will give you more detail, but basically every meeting is different in organization and content. We have an abundance of adult leaders to work with the teens in small groups on their awards or training them for a whitewater trip or a rappelling trip, or whatever as needed. Sometimes the teens just want to hang together and socialize. Since our crew plans 3-4 outings each month there is always a lot of prep work to be done at every meeting. There are no advisor conferences or COH's, or uniform inspections. It is hard to put into words but the meeting time is much more relaxed, the crew knows what needs to be done and gets it done under the crew officers leadership. That is how it has successfully worked for our crew for almost 12 years now. Not every crew works that way, but that is the way the Venturing program was envisioned to be, as a social coed group of teens each sharing their own personal gifts/strengths to the success of the crew.

SP First of all your beligerance towards Lisabob is really uncalled for and without any foundation. You yourself belong to a particular denomination that explicitly states that they are "The Only True Church" and the "only true path to Heaven" and all the others are basically "invalid as are their ordinations and sacraments" quoting Pope Benedict XVI (2005). I hate to tell you fella but the AHG doctrines conflicts with your owns faiths beliefs so why are the AHG so desperate to be accepted by the BSA and RC Church? The answer is simple its called Survival. They have been unable to gain any real numbers in units or membership so they are desperately trying to appear as a nice neutral all encompassing Christian girl youth group when in fact many of the mainstream Christian denominations have already rejected them for being inconsistent with their own beliefs. To be blunt the Catholic Church is the only and last refuge they have left, but even many of the Catholic Church clergy are beginning to see the true beliefs of the AHG firsthand and are not happy,as I have witnessed in the diocese in my own area. So SP you keep up your one man quest tilting at windmills and dreaming the impossible dream of AHG and BSA united as one, even though the whole thing has a long way to go and is already coming unraveled at the seams.

Fehler You greatly underestimate the ability of National has in keeping all that information under wraps so that the details are never made public and NOTHING will ever be found on google or anywhere else. The council board also does not want any bad publicity so all of this is done behind closed doors with National reps when it involves an SE gone bad.

Hey Stosh Wouldn't those staffs with a hook on the end be a considered a weapon and a violation of the G2SS, LOL, just kidding.

Beavah Your so called legal premise concerning the SE is not only innaccurate but just plain wrong!!! Yes the SE can be released by the council board however he is not really fired in the true sense since National in 99.9% of the cases will just transfer him to another position in another council or worse yet give him a position at National. While the SE is morally obligated, but not legally, to look out for the best interests of the council many times we have seen that does not happen, I personally as a DE had three different SE's in five years at the same council. As far as the legality goes one of the SE's was let go for embezzelment of council funds, however he was just tranferred to another bigger council by National and the council was still out the funds until National replaced most of them years later. The next SE from the National list came in, saw its financial status and began selling off the councils assets starting with allowing tree harvesting at the camp, then eventually selling the camp to developers, all approved by the council board who were 98% hand selected by him. Three years after I left the professional scouting the council was closed due to financial insolvency. This is becoming an all too common story in many councils nationwide. Where is the financial and legal responsibility of the SE to the council Beavah?? It doesn't exsist is the correct answer. The poor councils are then stuck with HAVING to select their next SE from a list of retread SE's supplied by National. So you see Beavah your explaination may be the way it is supposed to be but it is NOT the reality of the situation, and never has been.

jp All SE's are like politicians, they say the right thing at the right time to the right group. Every one of them know who they really work for and who decides on their promotions and transfers and that is NOT the local council.

ponzi Yes the board hires the SE but it must be one of National's candidates, they can NOT hire outside the preapproved National List. National still calls the shots as to when they want to transfer the SE. The council board and SE are more accurately a partnership instead of an employer/ employee relationship. If you ask an SE who he works for he will tell you the Boy Scouts of America, not the Lone Pine Council.

SP Why is that news to you? ALL SE candidates are recommended to a council board by the National office, prior it was the regional office. All professional scouters receive a formal commission signed by the National Office Rep's and CSE, all DE's and SE's are expected to be ready to transfer every 3-5 years to a larger council or assignment. If a council board wants to get rid of an SE before his tenure is up it must do so through a formalized request to National with an explanation as to the reasons why. While an SE/DE is at a council he is expected to work in the best interests of that council and at the same time maintain the interests of the National BSA organization, as well as its rules and regulations.

BSA24 Aw come on now you know you were just asking for it with all your nasty comments, so just suck it up and take it like a man. LOL

Ponz The SE is an employee of the BSA not the local council, the council board can ask National to remove him and if the offense warrants it National will just transfer him to another council, and then it is NATIONAL that sends the council board a list of potential candidates to replace him. It is also National that determines when it is time to transfer an SE to another council even if the local council board wants him to stay. By the way the same thing is true with DE's and FD's etc who want to transfer to another council, or need to be let go, it is the SE and not the council board who makes that decision.

JM Differences between a troop and a crew 1)There is no uniform or uniform method in Venturing, it is up solely for the youth and NOT the adults to decide what type of crew clothing if any they may want. 2) There is no advancement or ranks in Venturing required by the program. There are achievement awards, Bronze, Gold, Silver, Ranger, Trust, and Quest that the crew members can work for however NONE are required to be a Venturer. 3) The program is CO-ED, except LDS, you are allowed to opt out of this locally but the program was developed for a coed group of teens and if you decide not to have a coed crew you really do not understand the true nature of Venturing. You will also be SEVERELY limiting your crews potential for growth and success. 4)Crews can choose to have a specialty or be general interest. Our crew is a High Adventure and Water Sports crew with extensive camping, backpacking, mountain climbing and rappelling, wilderness survival, kayaking, sailing, whitewater rafting, cave exploration to name just a few. Our crew started out twelve years ago with 10 teens and five advisors, today the crew has over 70 active members and 20 advisors and consultants. We got this big because we realized and gave the teens what they wanted, gave them the lead in organizing and implementing the program, with the adults offering advice but not taking over. This formula is what and how Venturing is supposed to be organized and run, unfortunately few crews and leaders seem to understand that and wind up closing down after a year or two. Venturing IS NOT A BOY SCOUT TROOP!! Every crew in my experience who tried to run their crew like a troop has FAILED! It is not the program that has held Venturing back from reaching its full potential but rather the leadership on the local level, council level, and National level who have never made the effort to read the Venturing literature in detail to truly understand the program or how to organize and run it ,and have never tried to build their crews around the teens needs and desires instead of their own personal interests.

ScoutNut You have hit the nail on the head, this so called Catholic-AHG Alliance is strictly in the mind of Seattle Pioneer and simply is not true. The truth of the matter is, according to my priest contacts is that there is no dissatisfaction between the Catholic Church and GSA troops who meet at Catholic Churches. SP for some personal reason is on his one man crusade to dennounce and purge the GSUSA from all Catholic churches. However just like Don Quixote he is tilting at windmills.