BadenP

Bob, Not to belabor the point but I think your scouting history is a little off in your reply. Yes BSA was federally chartered in 1916 but scout troops were forming in the USA years before that. The training you talk about took years to put in place and was available only in just a few areas on the east coast. Most councils in the west did not come about until the mid 1920's. Most of these early trainers were scoutmasters who had struggled through WITHOUT formal training and were hand selected for their experience. The early councils were all volunteer commissioners appointed by National, professional scouting came along much later, except for those few at the National office. These facts by the way were given to me by National during my training as a DE.

Bob, I think what jd and others were trying to say was at the early stages of scouting there were no formal training classes. The early leaders who later became the trainers had to initially try new things some went well, many failed. It was from these early scouting pioneers successes and flops that we have the training we do today, so we do not have to repeat the same things that do not work. That tradition lives on today as we learn new and better ways to do things from those trainers who admit what has not worked for them. Any good training program is ever evolving and changes over time.

Just look at the movie "Follow me Boys", old Lem Siddons never received any training but did alright by his troops, he didn't even have an ASM. What do you think Bob was that a quality scout program? It sure wasn't by the book, lol. As you probably know it was based on a true story.

I agree with the posters here, scouting is a multidimensional and flexible program adaptable for any style of group. Leadership is important, but I have seen units surpass the leadership and do things the leader may not have thought possible. Then the unit evolves and takes on a life of its own. As scout leaders we can not be so smug and assume we have all the answers,or that everything must be done only our way, otherwise your program stagnates. The units I have led over the years are still alive and well, growing bigger and stronger and I am proud to have been there at the beginning and watch them evolve through time. Reminding me that this program is so much more than one leader or set of leaders.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Lillith, I work with two coed crews and the mix works great. The girls usually are more ambitious than the boys for advancement so they push the boys to keep up. Another good reason is quite frankly the girls keep the boys interested in remaining in much longer than in an all male crew. Most of all the Venture program provides a great program of leadership and coed activities for a wide range of interests. My teens are real excited this year with some new ideas for activities, and the crews keep getting larger each year. Good,motivated officers and a great program of activities will ensure you continual success. As Nike says, "Just do it."

Bob, I refer you to your post on page 2 of the Requiring a Uniform thread where you stated what I quoted in my last post here. I am glad to hear that you do not believe that wearing a complete uniform is a requirement of a good scout program because I feel those are seperate issues in poor areas. They accomplished these projects using the method I call Stone Soup, after the famous story. People in the community bought items stored in their basement old paint, tools, seeds, hoses and their own skills. These boys brought this neighborhood together for the first time in many years. Poor as these people are they are also proud of their area and wanted to help make it a better place. I also got a couple of the local merchants to kick in what they could afford. Unc,and Bob thanks for the kudos I will pass them on.

Bob, Okay in a previous thread you stated that, "the ability to have your scouts in full uniform is not dependent on economics but on the leadership plan for the troop." Now you are backtracking since Cajun and I gave our personal experiences where that was just not possible. I agree that scouting can be delivered in a poor area, just not the way you envision it. I feel very strongly, as you have read in my previous posts, that these poor boys in scout troops in depressed areas are just has good scouts as those from affluent areas, whether they have part or all of a uniform. I want you to know that in these troops we can't always be by the book, but we sure try. Lastly let me tell you two big accomplishments this troop did in their neighborhood. First, they took an deserted lot used for drug deals, etc. and developed into a community garden where neighborhood people are growing their own food so can have a healthy diet and save on food costs. Second, they converted an abandoned storefront into a daycare center so moms could go and look for work and not leave their kids home alone. To me this is the best example of the spirit of scouting I have ever seen. The community provided what they could, the gift of their labor and their love for these boys. One boy in that troop made it to Eagle and he became the current scoutmaster of the troop. And you know what, they did this all without ever owning a complete uniform. These kids may not have done everything by the book, but what they did do was nothing short of a miracle. So when I hear a scouter in here state "its not in the rules", I just cringe and wonder what are they teaching their boys, a set of rules and regulations or how to be a contributing citizen to their neighborhood and country.

Daigler, please read my last post under the uniform thread so you can better understand what happened.

Eamonn and Bob, let me clear up a misunderstanding, the boys in my old neighborhood would love to have full uniforms, but as cajun stated about his area this area was just as depressed economically. It is not always possible to earn enough money for uniforms, no one had the money for a carwash or popcorn. Unless you have lived in a ghetto or barrio or reservation you can't really understand the despair and desolation these people live with every day. It is naive for you or anyone to so callously state "there is always a way to obtain full uniforms." That just is not true.It is easy for one without the experience of real poverty and daily prejudice to cast judgement on those who deal with it every day. Boleta comment about one of his friends is a black doctor goes to show his misunderstanding of this crisis in our country. Some do make it out and are sucessful but they are the exception not the rule, I wish it was different. These boys in their uniform shirts are feeling good about themselves for the first time in their lives and are proud to be members of scouting.

With the emotions running so hot and high on this topic and such a variety of opinions I think the moderators should close this thread as well. Eamonn, even though we disagree on some points I think you are a true gentleman in the way you handle yourself. Kudos to you.

boleta, if anyone is being racist it is you. I don't know what race you are but I am betting you are one of those white liberals who has never experienced prejudice personally. I was speaking in the other thread of my own childhood neighborhood where I went back and was able to establish a positive scouting experience for those boys who like myself had literally nothing their entire lives. Oh and for the record I am both Hispanic and part Black. You went to medical school, so don't tell me you know about real poverty. The kids in my block were lucky to live past 10 years with all the gangs, drugs, and unemployment. I have dealt with prejudice every day of my life, so don't come preaching to me because it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about. Eamonn and I were doing just fine in communicating about a unique scouting experience and certainly didn't need your interference. So enjoy your little thread for the ill-informed. If you want to have a discussion about race with me then bring it on, I would love to enlighten you.

Eamonn I was not insinuating that you were mean spirited in any way, but the ideas you promoted were very one sided and too by the book except in more ideal situations. Boleta you need to calm down, race was not the issue but plays an issue when it comes to scouting. I have heard from many that the scout program is geared to white middle class boys only. This troop was to prove that false to the people of that neighborhood. As poor as your Detroit home may have been it was not as desolate as this neighborhood, black , white or whatever. We brought the program here to give some hope to the youth and you know what it worked. So come down off your high horse and let this thread flow, OKAY!!

Eamonn First of all in this community there was such poverty that the ability of obtaining full uniforms was not a reality, this troop was 80% Black and 20% Hispanic, with an unemployment rate of 90%. The scout shirts we got in the second year was a great achievement for them. My contention is that a partial uniform is better than none, and that demanding a full uniform when it may not be feasible economically is a violation of the true purpose, method, and spirit of scouting. Denying a boy any of the benefits of scouting because of a troop rule of 100% full uniform goes against everything Baden Powell and scouting stands for, and is just plain wrong and mean spirited. Any scoutmaster who creates more obstacles than opportunities to scouting for any boy I feel is not living up to his position of fostering brotherhood and is violating the spirit of the scout law, courteous, kind, helpful, and friendly for a start. I am not trying to change your mind but trying to get you to see and explore this issue from another angle.

I was an ASM for a poor inner city troop, these kids couldn't afford to eat half the time let alone buy a uniform. Through a uniform bank in another council we were able to obtain uniform shirts for all the boys. Those guys were so proud of their new shirts, they told me they felt like scouts. Only a few of them ever got the complete uniform, but nobody was ever treated diffently no matter what. To all the uniform purists that posted here all I can say is what is the true meaning of the scouting spirit and program, if you feel its wearing only a complete uniform then I think you need re-examine your scouting methodology.

I have to agree with Beaver and Bob on this one, do your association group as an intercouncil activity, chartering a loose association of groups already chartered in other councils makes no sense. I love doing activities with other crews from other councils, we have an activity bi monthly. What would be the purpose to try to charter this association, even though it isn't even allowed by BSA rules.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Rooster I agree with you 100%, but tell that to the Irish in Belfast, or the Jews and Palestinians, or the Christians and Muslims in Bosnia, etc.. The book I suggested does not justify the violence but puts it in historic context. Unfortunately violence has been and always will be part of the human exsistence. Once we properly understand the root causes only then can we start the healing process.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Eamonn, There is a great book to help you understand why this hatred is so strong between the Middle East and the West, it is "The Warriors of God", by Reston. It talks about the long history of conquering and occupation from Richard the LionHeart and Saladin up to present time; and discusses abuses from both sides of the story in a fascinating way. It opened my eyes and I recommend it to anyone wanting to know more about why we are so hated by Islam and others in the region.

The five youth requirement is the min. number only to obtain a charter. You can recruit actively with the help of your CO before that without restriction but will not be able to apply for a charter until you have at least 5 youth and 5 adults to register, that is Nationals requirement. My DE suggests you do a recruitment night at your CO or other spot, have the youth and adults fill out the applications and present them to the council registrar who will help you with the charter. As a former DE myself thats how we did it in my districts.

An update to my previous post. I spoke to my SE today about this because I have a similar problem in my crew. His reply was that even if one of the couple is over 21 but the other is under 21 then under no circumstances can they share quarters on a crew outing. The reason given is the younger spouse is still regarded as a youth participant married or not and should not cohabitat during the outing. He stated that if she was not a registered Venturer then the rule would be moot. The couple in my crew was not happy with the answer. I'm not sure if I like the answer either. Eamonn, apparently this situation is more common than I thought.

One problem you might be having with council is who is the chartering organization? If this is just a group of adult friends wanting to do this you might have a problem convincing council that this is a stable, viable charter organization. An in place chartering organization could then help you with recruiting in your community. Too many crews get thrown together haphazardly and fall apart in a few months without a solid organization behind them. A crew is not supposed to be a club, but a scouting unit that will stand up over time.

Interesting question, if you are under 21 in Venturing you are still considered a youth member and the rules clearly state no cohabitation. Being married still does not make you an adult member. This is a call for your Advisor and committee to make because this situation is not really covered in the Venture rule book, my guess is that the answer would be no because you are not yet considered an adult. I myself as an Advisor would take it under advisement and discuss it with the other adults in the crew to try and work something out.

Interesting dilema here because all the posters are essentially correct. Under the letter of the law the boy is a member of scouting and you took his money, so he is entitled to go. Under the spirit of scouting you can suggest he reconsider because of his soon to be departure and his lack of participation, but you technically can't mandate him not to go if you are not going to refund the money. Since the boy is not a danger to the other scouts or himself there are no grounds to prohibit him. My suggestion is to talk to the dad and offer him a refund, yes you will have to take the loss, if he refuses then use it as an opportunity to try to get the boy back.

Sometimes all of us who volunteer and take on too much need to learn to just say "NO". As hard as it is to do we must learn to put family before our scouting and learn to strike a balance. Otherwise we can jeopardize our marriage and time with our own kids, time you can never get back.

F Scouter if you can't tell the difference between what this guy did to his dogs and what farmers do to their livestock being raised for food then I think you need to do a reality and morality check on yourself.

As I stated earlier my council is switching to Campmasters this year and we had a tasting kickoff the other night. I agree with the poster who said the quality was not as good, in fact i think it is terrible. I agree that we will lose alot of repeat customers this year, those little collectible tins are popular here probably as a momento and reminder of scouting. As the COR for my unit I went to council to complain about the switch, as we were originally told all councils are switching to Campmasters. Thanks to you guys I know thats not true, the SE agreed to another meeting with the COR's to discuss the issue some more.