BadenP

J BOGGS, To be honest with you Eamonn's last post hits the nail on the head as to why joining a troop for the first time at almost 17 probably won't work. Your son may be placed in a new scout patrol with 11 & 12 year olds, a receipe for disaster. If there are no venturing or sea scout programs in your area call your council office and have your DE get one started, thats what they do. Find out what areas your son is interested in, he would be one of the founding members of that crew/ship with teens his own age who would all be at the same starting point as him. You could also help out as a committee member or associate advisor. IMHO, this is the only realistic solution, if you force him into a troop with mostly younger boys Eamonn is right on when he says your son will probably lose interest very quickly, and he could develop a very negative image of scouting. Four years ago myself and five other adults started a coed Venturing crew with 10 teens today we have over 40 youth members and are still growing. Of these 40 less than 1/4 of them had ever been in scouts before and they love the program and are dedicated to it. I am here to tell you from personal experience this is not that hard to do, but it takes a personal committment from the adults and youth, then the sky is the limit. Good Luck.

At that age I would look at signing him up for a Venturing crew or a Sea Scout ship, the teens would be closer to his age, he can stay a member through age 20, and even earn advancements catered to the older teens interests. IMHO that is the way to go here.

Good points CNY As the CC and COR for my venturing crew I tactfully insist all the assistant advisors and other adult leaders take Basic Leader Training and Venturing Specific together within three months of coming on board as a group, since we have two councils fairly close together and one or the other always has this training offered. In preparation before that they take Fast Start, Venturing Youth Protection Training, Safety Afloat, etc. on line and all of us discuss it as a group. After these adults complete one full year of service they go to Powderhorn, and most of us who have several years under our belts help run the Kodiak program for venturing youth during the summer. In addition we have started a district wide Venturing Roundtable which is really growing. The bottom line is with all this training, support,sharing, and teaching these adults are well prepared and successful in training and advising the teen officers in creating a solid and fun yearly program, and our crew is still growing after four years. TRAINING=SUCCESS!!!!

As sad as this story is all I can say that there is nothing new here. Ghost or paper units have been a standard practice among professional scouting for many years now. This was especially true when United Way was providing as much as 25% of some councils income based on an increase in membership and specialized inner city programs. I experienced this first hand as a DE when I refused to set up a ghost unit in my district telling my SE that my professional reputation and the trust that I had built up for four years with my volunteer leaders were more important to me than creating a phony inner city program. That was when I decided I had finally had enough of the dishonesty going on with this new SE so I said goodbye to professional scouting forever. Three years later that council was absorbed into a larger council, and that SE resigned. I am much happier now working with a troop and crew helping these young men and women grow into responsible and honest adults. I feel sorry for all those scouts and scouters in Alabama having to see their council dragged through the mud after learning how important it is to follow the Scout Law and Venturing Code. This has become a real ethical dilema that the BSA had better deal with quickly and justly or face losing all their credibility and support with the public.

Herms I agree with you 100%, however don't hold your breath waiting for National to change their policies.

CNY, I think John and Eamonn have given you all the evidence you need. This DE sounds like he is trying to save face after giving you a wrong answer, and Eamonn is right on when he told you to stop listening to him. I was constantly having to illuminate my own DE when he gave out wrong information, and since he knows I was a DE and Field Director for over five years he now asks me for advice, go figure. A DE is a resource, they should not be making up answers but researching to get you the correct answer. Being involved in Venturing/Sea Scouts sometimes feels like we have to recreate the wheel with all the mis information floating around out there, even though all these rules and regs are in the BSA Venturing and Sea Scout manuals. CNY, stick to your guns.

Merlyn I don't understand why you are grilling ED about the 10 Commandments on the Supreme Court, you should instead ask the artist as to what is being represented, for the answer you want is not a biblical one. I know how much you enjoy baiting ED and anyone else who disagrees with you. Ed I assume you received my pm as to my credentials and since there was no reply you were satisfied. For the record I have a masters degree in theology from Notre Dame and a doctorate in theology from Harvard.

ED I suggest you do some more reading my friend, I have two graduate degrees in theology and have studied with some of the most noted scripture scholars alive today. The OT does indeed contain facts but it also contains fictional stories to teach about how to live our lives like Jesus' parables they are not to be taken literally, the story of Job is one. By the way ed both Jewish and Christian Bible scholars agree with this, so whatever you have been reading I would suggest you carefully check their credentials, or more likely their lack of credentials before you insist their interpretations are accurate. There is a lot of nonsense published by so called Christian writers with no formal education in theology or scriptures and most of it has no credibilty or accuracy. Their writings show their complete lack of understanding about scriptures, their origins, let alone how to interpret them correctly. To sum up ED would you go in for surgery from someone who never went to medical school, of course not, so why would you believe someone about the Bible who has little or no formal education with it.

ED Are you trying to bait Dan the way you did a certain other former poster in here, I hope not. The Bible is a matter of and a book of faith, not of science or history, even though it contains some elements of both. Top Christian theologians have published that belief for many years, the seven days of creation were not literal 24hr days any logical and educated person understands that. God's timeframe is not the same as our time. You may believe whatever you want that is your right, but others also have that same right. The Old Testament are a series of oral stories passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years before they were even written down. Just as Jesus used parables to teach so did the ancient Israelites. The stories of Jonah and Job are perfect examples, they are stories of being strong in your beliefs. Do you realistically think that God would bargain with Satan to torture poor Job to that degree to test his faith? God doesn't ever bargain the story is a parable.

Brent, All I can say is that your simplistic examples, which have little to do with the topic, prove the total lack of understanding you have about the issue being discussed. NAMBLA and organizations like it are very real and genuine threats to the BSA and other youth groups. The fact that you can not tell the difference between NAMBLA and homosexuals really makes me wonder about your intelligence and educational background. Maybe Brent the reason you are so upset is that you are a member/supporter of NAMBLA yourself and that's why you are defending them. The Girl Scout Project took a lot of courage on the part of that young woman and I congratulate her on her conviction and courage.

We all know the BSA stance on homosexuals in scouting. Brent, it might interest you to know that NAMBLA has written books for their members with specific instructions on how to infiltrate the Boy Scouts, and other youth organizations and how successful they have been. I agree with Dan there is a big difference between homosexuals and Nambla members, who are nothing more than predators. There was an episode of South Park on last night about a boy scout troop who had a homosexual scoutmaster. The council dismissed him and put a so called straight military style replacement, who turned out to be a pervert taking naked pictures of the boys. The ending had quite an inspiring message, and I suggest that ED and Brent, who are obvious homophobes, view it to see just how ridiculous their statements are in this case, and what is the real tragedy in the BSA stance on this issue.

Semper, Getting a state form for non profit status and filing an SS-4 does not make you a 501c3, a Fed Id Number simply is for the IRS to identify an entity. 501c3 status is much more involved and should be done by professionals, not a do it yourself kit. I can't tell how many groups we IRs agents deal with a year who did not follow proper procedures and as a result all the donations received were taxable with interest and penalties. To all you scout leaders thinking about doing this, pay a professional, get the proper advice, and set it up right, it will be a lot cheaper than using a do it yourself kit and getting an audit or bill from the IRS three years later with penalties and interest.

Orennoah I must correct you on two points, 1) A scout unit is not an legal entity unto themselves but is a subsidiary of the Charter Organization who is ultimately responsible for all its liabilities and assets,including contributions, especially when things fall apart. Your CO is the legal entity and voting rep to the council not the pack, troop or crew. 2) As a former IRS agent I can tell you most CO's will not let a pack use their Fed ID Number to solicit donations because of potential legal and tax ramifications to them. The pack can not get a 501c3, the CO can apply for that status, ex., Friends & Parents of Pack 123, but not the pack itself.

COR's are also allowed to vote at the annual council executive board business meeting and have an open invitation to any council board meeting. That is why knowing your COR is so important, they can bring any concerns you have directly to council.

Eamonn and Scoutldr are both correct in their assessments of the situation. As a former Sr.DE myself before we would replace a DC we would talk it over with the SE both suggesting possible replacements. Usually if a DC and DE do not see eye to eye the DChair will resign. In my own case I had some great DC's in my districts the Mayor and Police Chief of the districts who were powerful allies in helping get all our districts goals met. One of my fellow DE's had the problem of coming new into a district and was instructed by the SE to replace the current DChair and DComm who he felt did not support the council, that poor guy went through some really tough times and as a result resigned less than a year later. As far as the COR's are concerned Scoutldr is correct, at the last meeting for our district COR's only two showed up, myself being one. IMHO scouting and politics just don't mix well, someone or group always ends up getting hurt.

Barry In most abortion cases the so called father is little more than a sperm donor from a one night stand, a rape, or a party gone bad who has no interest in the needs of the child or the mom. We have become a society of sexually irresponsible and immoral people. Most TV shows, movies, and music use sex to tempt our youth and make it seem okay to be loose and easy. Statistics show that over 80% of abortions are performed on girls under the age of 21, most of them having sex as early as 11 or 12 right under their parent(s) noses. This is a serious internal societal problem, not a religious one. Rooster As always a man of real conviction, I agree with you that abortion is wrong but it will take more than the Bible to correct it. We as a nation must stand as one Christian, Jew, etc. and demand an accountability from our government, the press, movie and tv industries to stop pandering to lowest immoral denominator. Then it must become a global issue in a world where all human life seems to have little value anymore. You see it is not a matter of whether you believe the same faith or not, it is a matter of learning to treat all human beings with the respect and dignity they deserve. Until that day comes the attrocities will continue and we will continue to become less as a people.

It always amuses me to see a bunch of old dotty male scouters preach their holier than thou attitudes and then can not seem to understand why others view them negatively. Why are we not hearing from the female scouters on this issue? My response is because not one male here, myself included, can really understand this issue because we can not get pregnant or will ever carry a child to term. This is a personal issue between a woman, her doctor and God. You can quote and misquote the Bible all you want to justify your opinions but that is all they are, they are not facts nor are they the law of the land. Some of you people need to learn to read the Bible from a contextual instead of a literal basis. The attitudes of cultures 2,000 to 6,000 years ago do not directly apply to our culture today. Cultures and belief systems do not exsist in a vacumm but are constantly evolving and changing over time. Just as you would not use a medical text from the 1800's to treat a patients illness today you have to be very careful how you use the Bible to answer the morality of todays culture, otherwise you will come across as bigoted and unChristian who doesn't really understand what you read in the Bible.

Eamonn I think the problem is in the corporate structure of the BSA. A local council provides a scout store and a camp to serve the scouts as well as DE's who are supposed to keep things organized and flowing smoothly in a district. What has happened in the pro scouting world is that many small and medium size councils have been folded into mega councils serving a large geographical region, supposedly to save money. The result has been local scouters have little say as to what happens on a council level concerning their districts,blanket policies that do not work in all areas, and DE's who are rarely seen or seem to do little in their districts. I think,as a scouter and a former professional, that the solution lies in having more local councils who report directly to National and eliminating all the regional middle management, which mainly just duplicates National efforts anyway. Each council would be run by an SE and a Council Chair who is elected by and from the volunteers, creating a balance of power in administering to the needs of that council. National would never go for this idea, sharing the power, but I feel it would eliminate most of the problems and corruption that is haunting the BSA today.

OGE, I agree with Dan, my crew started off with a church youth group with a leaning towards religious life, doing community service projects, hosting a craft night, teaching the young kids at the church things they have learned with the crew. However, we have done many camping trips, Cope style courses, and even were given a Navy seal survivor course (modified). The point is in Venturing you may start with a certain focus but in no time the teens will want to explore other options. Also without the advancement requirements of a troop, overnights are a time just to have fun and experiment with some outdoor recipes. Half of the teens in my crew had never camped out before in tents, and when they made their first dutch oven cobblers you should have seen the expressions on their faces, all the cobblers turned out great. As I have said before I love Venturing, it has given my crew experiences they never would have done on their own as well as learn leadership and organizational skills. Thank you BSA for this excellent program.

After reading the thread on are scouts really scouty anymore I wondered about this topic. Putting all our fond remembrances and the nostalgia behind us, and looking at the National decline in membership in specifically boy scout troops is the outdoor program really appealing anymore. These generations being brought up where playing video games and extreme sports is all encompassing, and most all social interchange is done online, does the program need to be adjusted or do we have to find a new way to reach out to those youth who think scouting is "geeky", and how do we do that. If we all look at this from an unemotional and pragmatic viewpoint can and will the boy scout program be able to survive, and more important continue to grow over the next century? What do you think?

I have seen BOR's all over the place arguing about what they can and can not do, what their authority is, and their true function. It is their sole job to determine whether or not a scout has passed all his req's for Eagle and nothing more, not be judge, jury and prosecutor. I wish BSA would put out a video on how to properly run a BOR and require everyone who is or has sat on a BOR to review and study it. I feel this would help eliminate many of these BOR horror stories we hear.

Le Voyageur makes some very valid points, LDS scout leaders are appointed by the church leaders, they are not volunteers and the appointment is usually short term, a year for most so there is not a lot of incentive for these guys to go to all the training. The suggestion to allow LDS units to encourage those who would like to volunteer rather than being forced into it as a call to serve the church would be a good start. Remember the main focus of boy scouting in the LDS church is to prepare the young men to go on their mission at 18, so scouting in LDS units is not quite the same structure as regular scout units. I respect the LDS using scouting as their youth program, and I would hope that they would use more of the BSA program structure than most of them do, and that would help decrease the number of accidents in these units.

jkhny If everything in the BSA is as dreary as portrayed here then scouting will die out. However, I think this article is EXTREMELY exagerrated to say the least. Scouting could not have survived almost 100 years if it was run by corrupt individuals. Most of the professionals in scouting are competent and honest people, I used to be one, and the volunteers make sure the pro's stay that way. In my two districts the last thing I ever wanted were "yes men" as my district committee members. Scouting is a very time consuming program to run on a district and council level and you need many people you can trust to assist with delivering of all the varied aspects of the program in an effective and efficent manner. There has been corruption in our own government all through history yet we do not close down Washington DC as a result, do we. Scouting deserves the same chance, let them clean house of their bad apples and put safeguards in place to prevent future occurances. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.

Eamonn You hit the nail on the head as to why most SM's should not be Venturing leaders. It is a very different style of program that attracts a coed group of older teens who want to have fun, plan activities and could care less about advancement or uniforms. But you see that is also the beauty of this program, it brings teens in who never would ordinarily have joined scouts and those teens who feel they have outgrown scouting. It gives us advisors a chance to instill some real values and responsibilities into these teens who otherwise would be drinking, drugging,and partying with their contemporaries. I think you will find after a time that instead of earning badges these teens will be thanking you for giving them a chance to stretch their abilities beyond what they felt capable of doing, succeeding, and sometimes failing, and in the end turning into responsible and caring adults because of your guidance. That to me is more worthwhile than a mountain of merit badges. Yes it is a very different style of program, but I feel you will soon discover, as I did, that the values of scouting go much deeper than uniforms and camping. These teens need this program now much more than ever before in providing them direction into becoming better adults with a solid core of values. I started out skeptical as you and now I can't think of another program that I would rather be involved with. There are also advancement badges available to those who want to earn them, but they are not the focus as it is in Boy Scouts. About 65% of my teens have earned at least one advancement. Eamonn I tell you from experience give Venturing a real chance and I think your teens will really surprise you, and you will surprise yourself.

I agree with Bob, this young man in no way is emotionally mature enough to take on a leadership position at this time. He needs to grow up and learn the responsibility of being an adult. I think he would be a detriment to your troop at this time. If he wants to show some maturity let him take training with you, but keep him away from the boys for at least a few months. He will either rise to your expectations and become more mature and a real asset to your troop or he will move on, either way it will be for the best.