BadenP

packsaddle some very good points you bring up, especially that last one. This is going to be a very expensive settlement not only monetarily but for credibility on the part of the BSA. This is a no win situation and it would not surprise me at all if the Utah state government does stop granting permits to BSA units as a reprisal. Whether or not it is enforceable will be yet another long court battle. Like I said in the other thread, until the BSA makes LNT training and all other scoutleader training mandatory they will always be held partially responsible. I don't think even the LDS church can affect the outcome of this case, we will see. Incompetent leaders will bring down the BSA even faster than corrupt professional scouters. It is time for some reform and change to take place at BSA National.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

This just goes to show why mandatory training for all boy scout leaders is so desperately needed. The story was a true one and if I remember correctly it was an LDS untrained leader and his troop (what a surprise)who were responsible for the fire. If as an organization we want to project a positive and competent outdoor image then we better be pretty darn sure only trained leaders are taking kids out into the woods. Otherwise we deservedly ought to be criticized for our incompetence. This was not an attack against the scouts as much as pointing out a large failure in BSA policies, that scoutmaster and the CO should be held accountable, and the BSA better start changing training policies to keep knucklehead leaders like that out of the program or they also could be held liable.

My group loves deep fried tweakies on campouts, also try the snoballs deep fried mmmmmmmmmmmm. Just kidding Trev.,I agree with what you said, the adults should tweak in the background not dominate the program.

First of all it seems that there is a widespread misunderstanding among many scouters that council exec's and de's work to serve them, this is far from the truth. Professional scouters one and ONLY loyalty belongs to National, that is made perfectly clear in all aspects of professional training at every section. It was grilled into us over and over again during our training in Irving, TX. You can quote any document or charter you want but those are the sad but true facts. What is happening here is becoming more the norm rather than the exception and thats the real tragedy. When I read about scouters wanting to take on and demand that National reform itself I can't help but feel that it would be a daunting and expensive legal battle that National would probably win with their armies of attorneys. My feeling is that you give minimal support to a poorly run council, and use the BSA program resources to benefit your boys with the best program possible. There are plenty of good camps out there to use if your council is playing games with your own camp. Eventually a badly run council will fold unless you blindly keep feeding it your dollars.

"If we each help our fellow scouter deliver a quality program then we might just have something." In theory this might be true OGE but in a practical reality it will never happen for a variety of reasons. First, the quality of training going on in many districts and councils is substandard to say the least,even when trying to follow a sylabus some trainers just can't deliver. Second, no mandatory training, most units failing are due to untrained or minimally trained adults who just do not understand how to deliver the program. Third, a lack of commitment on the part of the adult and some youth leaders. Many look at this as a one year position until they can pawn it off on someone else because they are "too busy" to do the job right. Fourth, the programs in many units just plain suck so the kids get bored and leave in droves. In otherwords there is a complete lack of accountability on the part of the unit leaders, the CO,the district leaders, the councils, and National, and without requiring a certain standard of quality at every level the problem just continues to fester and grow. These IMHO are the reasons scouting is losing ground rapidly and until National mandates some minimal mandatory training requirements, and removes those leaders who do not live up to the job the numbers will continue to drop no matter what crazy new program the BSA comes up with.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Brent First of all while I might disagree with him at least Gonzo lays a foundation for his arguments while you resort to insults and name calling. Second its not the Republicans who can take credit for the current economy, Basic Economic Theory shows the cyclical nature of rises and falls has more to do with corporate decision making than the absurdity going on in DC. Our economy is finally pulling out of the recession caused by 9/11 not by anything Bush or Rumsfield have done. If we were not embroiled in Iraq there would be billions coming back into our economy and our dollar would be in a much stronger position on the worldwide financial network,and we could start paying off our huge deficit. Now you can name call all you want but the facts are the facts, try taking a college course in economics sometime maybe then you could defend yourself better.

Brent and Gonzo sometimes I wonder if you live in the same country as the rest of us. Your skewed economic philosophies are almost as laughable as the rest of your ideologies. If you really think that the Democrats are going to pander to the poor so that they can win in 2008 then your understanding of politics is as flawed as your economics. Speaking of pandering do you remember Bush promising to give illegals amnesty in the last election to get the hispanic vote, which he got for the most part, and then afterwards he tells them he didn't really mean Amnesty, so who has no credibility left with the American people, good ol GW. Hope you guys enjoy living in your plastic bubbles, and I can't wait to read your replies.

Yep it must be the water, Brent you continue prove my point time and time again, and Gonzo I don't like terrorists either. Brent it must be hard for you thinking you are always right even when you are so wrong.

Brent and Gonzo, tell me is there something in the Georgian water that makes you both so bigotted and closed minded??? You both defend this atrocity being committed in violation of our countrys laws, it is not our country that is evil, the evil is with certain high ranking officials who think they are above the law. Our country is and always will be the best in the world, thank God that these certain high ranking officials reign will soon be at an end. AMEN!!

Finally the truth has made it to the light and now Republicans and Democrats can unite under the fact that torture is morally wrong and for our country to be engaged in it is morally wrong. Well W has finally reunited our country under a common cause, now it is time for the people to be heard, VOTE.

I am glad to see that the majority of the scouters approach this issue with some forethought and understanding instead of a shoot first and ask questions later mentality. This is indeed a multi layer problem that as been blown out of proportion by some of the posters here. Experts have completed studies which show young people age 15-21 have doubts about God, what is the purpose of religion, how does it apply to their lives or is it even relevant. After working with teenagers for fifteen years and as an ordained minister I can tell you first hand that this is a phase almost all youth go through. As they gain more life experiences they will begin to find relevancy of what they were taught and format their belief system. I think a meeting with his minister is a good idea, as long as it is not done in an accusatory manner, but in a loving and positive way. To Gern, Gonzo, nld all I can say to you is that Jesus went out to find his lost sheep not drive it out of the flock. I suggest you try to use love and understanding, since you claim to be Christians, instead of being so judgmental and closed minded.

In my humble opinion participating in the "old" wb and being on staff on wb for the 21st century I agree that the current course probably should put more emphasis on outdoor skills, however I agree with OGE that where else can you meet and exchange ideas with other scouters who love the program. My belief is that it is the quality of the instructors that make or break the course. As Nike says,"Just do it." you will not be sorry.

CNY Interesting article, and it seems to be an ever growing problem that the BSA continues to ignore. In spite of what many posters in this forum may believe the numbers of scouts are decreasing each year, other threads here have shown how even the numbers provided by National can not be believed. The causes for the decline are numerous, bad management, bad programs,and now councils are selling off assets just to stay alive. Why, why, why?? After a hundred years of being one of the best youth programs out there are we witnessing its slow and very sad decline? There are some awesome and successful units out there with terrific programs and they are to be congratulated, but as the BSA infrastructure continues to errode will even these units be able to survive. The units I am working with are still growing ,but our council is in serious financial straits and United Way has now pulled out entirely. We as scouters need to do all we can to support our councils and the BSA professionals need to develop a much better vision for the future, as well as clean up their act. Of course there is the other proposition that the Boy Scouts has simply ceased to be relevant to the society of today and is archaic and outdated in its approach. I hope that is not the case, after serving in scouting for over 25 years and watching changes in our youth today there is a real need for this program now more than ever. If the BSA does ever cease to exsist, it would be a huge loss to our society as a whole, and especially to our youth.

emb While the COR's are voting members we all know in reality few if any ever attend to vote on anything. The SE hand selects his own board with people of the same mind set as he, they are always the majority present, and the vote always goes their way. In my experience I was one of 3 CORs present at a board meeting and we were all made to feel very unwelcome, and we were even asked by a board member what we were doing here. Later on I found out why, this was the night the board was to decide whether or not to sell the council camp, guess how the vote went? Yep, we CORs were out voted. So you can quote all the supposed to be's you want, they are rarely the reality. While the BSA may not be a democracy it still has a responsibility and obligation to its membership who financially support them.(This message has been edited by BadenP)(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I for one love NOAC and have gone 3 times , once as staff advisor. I have also had the pleasure in teaching some classes on Native American cultures. It has always been a fun trip for me and I'm sure the boys will have a great time. Yes there are a few haughty people in the OA, but they are relatively few in number OGE, by the way do you think emb21 caught the gist of your post, lol. emb21, remember the Obligation. WWW

While I agree with your sentiment Eamonn it still begs the question, Who selects the members of the Executive Board, what are their backgrounds in scouting, and what/whose interests do they truly represent? Not the volunteers, I am sure most will agree. Who then should we hold responsible? SR Money is important for the program to survive, but this is a question of how that money is put to use. Many times the program takes a back seat to the financial needs of the professional staff. Program must always be the number one priority, build it and they will come and so will the money.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Your post Eamonn just goes to verify my point that the relationships between council and volunteers are adversarial at best, and that their goals and our goals are usually polar opposites. I know that there are those out there who defend professional scouting to the death, but what is happening in Eamonns council is happening all over the country, including my own council. So I say again, professional scouting is all about money, money, money. In spite of the ever decreasing number of scouting pro's who really do care and really try to make a difference the priorities of National are quite clear. I have been on both sides and it deeply saddens me to see what has taken place in councils and National over the last 20 years. The facts speak for themselves, in spite of the smokescreens a few individuals love to toss out. Yes we can stick to our units and keep helping the youth, which is what we all love to do, but if the infrastucture of the BSA continues to deteriorate and finally collapses what happens to the youth? I think all of us know the answer to that, and it should be a deep concern to every scouting volunteer.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Brent to clarify for just for you. 1) my theology degrees are from Notre Dame and Harvard divinity schools in that order, and no Notre Dame is not in New Orleans, and I never stated I went to Union Theological. 2) I did work with the IRS and the BSA before I attended graduate school and were my motivation for going into ministry. I have been an ordained minister for six not sixteen years as you claim. 3)I was a DE and Sr. DE for four years and an acting field director for almost a year before I left the profession. During the later part of this time I spent 3 months at National. Please re read the first paragraph of my last post more carefully. Now I hope this clears up your confusion, if not please feel free to pm me with any questions.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Commando First of all I have not worked in the IRS for over 12 years. As far as my professional scouting career goes I had the highest quality districts for four years in the entire council and when I decided to leave the regional office and the scout executive both offered me the opportunity to go to any council I desired as a field director, I was the one who decided to move on. Recently my current council offered me a position as a Sr. DE for the largest district and to assist in the training of the younger DE's even though I have been out of the profession for over a decade, if thats failure than I think you need a better dictionary. As to your last point if my view of the profession is outdated how do you account for the number of cases of misconduct have been on a steady rise for the last decade and more. Commando, talk to your buddies at National and ask the turnover rate for DE's, I'll give you a hint, the average time frame is 2-3 years for a new DE. Now for the last time, I have never stated that all scouting professionals are corrupt, the majority try to be honest and truthful in all their dealings, but there are a high number of pro's who will do anything to get ahead, and once you reach the level of a council scout exec., regional or National exec., the BSA protects them instead of terminating them. Recent court cases have verified this fact, is that outdated, I don't think so. I know of this personally with two of the SE's I worked for, one was found guilty of embezzling council funds for personal use, the other of selling council assets for personal gain. In both cases these guys were not terminated but rather assigned to larger councils, and these are the more common cases the volunteers and public never hear about because they never go to court, and are settled under the table by National reps'. Now Commando if you deny this has and is still going on in the professional ranks then you are more naive and guillable than I already think you are. Who knows Commando maybe when its your turn for promotion and your SE asks you to do something you know is unethical in order to secure that promotion it will be real interesting to see what you will do. Now I hope you enjoy your career as a DE and that you are one of the lucky ones who never experience any ethical dilemas, but the odds are not in your favor. When it comes time for you to leave the scouting profession by your own choice, or not I hope your record is a spotless one. Then at least you will be able to say I was one of the good and honest ones, and in spite of your personal attacks on me, I wish you smooth sailing in your scouting career. My time as a scouting professional is still very precious to me, in spite of what you may think, I know what a hard job it is to do. As it says in the scouting professional code we received at training at National, "recognizing that I serve best when losing myself in serving them (the volunteers and youth)". So let us end this here and now and instead use our energy to do just that. Peace.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Commando Not to belabor this anymore, your comments are your own opinion from your own experiences as are mine.Unfortunately for you the latest scandals seem to support my take more than yours on BSA professionals. As to my loyalty to scouting I have started and continue to work with four units as well as serving on the executive board of my council. I love scouting and I want to see it grow and flourish instead of losing support because of unprofessional actions of some scout executives. So I tell you that your comments about my loyalty are not only untrue but absolute LIES! You need to learn to see the reality instead of your fantasy ideology about the BSA. By the way I can supply you the names of the other DE's in my class who would attest to my statements. So if anyone should go Commando I think it should be you, your childish viewpoint and loyalty to National will never allow the internal problems in our organization to ever be corrected. You probably would have been telling everyone on the Titanic not to worry that the ship would not sink as it was going down. Your pompous and arrogant viewpoints still will not change the facts, so grow up already. If you want to continue this debate please send me an im. This forum is not the place for your kind of attacks, and a waste of my time responding to your ravings.

Commando I love it when a volunteer who has never been through the training professional scouters do jumps to their defense. You haven't been there so so don't believe this false illusion you are under. Now I will admit there are a few DE's and a very few SE's who start out concerned about program but then the reality of the profession hits and they realize that if they want to move up they need to focus on money and numbers. Towards the end of the first part of DE training a National scouting professional told our class outright "If you are good at raising a lot of money and starting a few new units each year you will go far in this profession." "You all need to learn to manipulate your volunteers into to doing what will make you look successful not what they think the priorities should be." These were the two gems of wisdom we were told in Texas. We learned a bit about programs and some other things as well but the focus was mainly on money and manipulation. It looks like your own DE was successful in brainwashing you into thinking his way as well. I refused to use these techniques with my volunteers, yet I always achieved my goals while others did not. My bond of trust with my volunteers was so solid it amazed the three SE's I worked for, but four years of Nationals hypocrisy was enough for me. So yes Commando I do blame the policies of National and the quality of their scouting professionals for the mess scouting is in today. I have many more examples to share but I will refrain otherwise my postings will become as long as Eamonn's, just kidding Eamonn.

With all due respect Commando your purer than snow analogy of BSA professionals is a little distorted and part is just untrue. I was A DE, and Sr. DE for four years in the late 80's to early 90's and the emphasis for a DE was always money and numbers, in that order, that has not changed to this day. I am currently on the executive board of my council and this is a hotly contested issue everytime we meet. Program always takes a back seat because these guys are out to protect their job and get promoted, that is and always will be their number one priority. Commando I suggest you take a look at some past threads where this topic has been throughly discussed and debated. To get back to Eamonn's original topic, there never truly was a relationship to come undone. The professional side have always had their own agenda and priorities and usually they run contrary to the goals of the district volunteers.

jkhny Your fatalistic view of scouting is so ridiculously absurd that it is humorous. There is some bad management in the BSA granted , but not on the level you suggest. Again you present no facts to back up your claims. You want to know the real reason for the decline in scouting, look in your own home, how many pcs, ipods, x boxes, etc do you own or do your kids own? Kids and teens live in almost a completely virtual world with text messaging. If the BSA wanted to attract a huge number of youth they could design a Virtual Scouting program. The sad truth of modern technology is that our youth, and many adults have lost interest in nature. The BSA was at a high when kids went out and played with each other, going on hikes, etc. Now parents are so afraid of something happening to their kids they keep them under constant watch and the PC has become the latest babysitter. Violence and lack of discipline at schools are at an all time high, our kids have become "Technotards"= socially inept, technology adept without any sense of the world outside of their sphere of exsistance. This is a serious problem with todays society as a whole not just the BSA.

Yes Trailfinder Venturing is very flexible and its that way on purpose to attract the broadest base of teens possible. Sea Scouts predates Venturing and is therefore more structured in its program than crews are. Venturing is not Exploring and not be confused that one replaced the other. There are still Explorer Posts such as Fire, Police, Search and Rescue etc., but they are not Venturing. Venturing to be quite honest was developed to attract teenage boys and girls who have never had prior experience in scouting, and to give older scouts who had grown bored of the troop a viable alternative to keep them in scouting, and speaking from personal experience as an advisor for over four years now a coed program definitely keeps the boys in. The problem is most scouters and many professionals do not really understand what the program is all about, many do not care either. It is not a boy scout troop or an explorer post, or the sea scouts. It's too bad National threw sea scouting in with venturing because it really is an independent program, and was done a great disservice by the BSA, IMHO.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Eamonn The small crews of five or so youth you talk about are for the most part LDS crews like their troops and teams have always been small. This really amazes me when you consider on a National basis over 50% of all scouts are now LDS. The other problem is that professional scouters really do not understand Venturing and Sea Scouts, as you and I have experienced. When is the last time you saw a commissioner or DE come to your crew or ship meeting, for me it was one time four years ago for five minutes. I tell you its a crime the indifference councils are showing lately to their units. Case in point I have eight venturers who qualified for either the Ranger, Trust or Quest awards this year. I went to the council office to get the SE's signature on their certificates, he looked at them and asked me, "So what did they have to do to earn these." Thats whats wrong, unknowledgeable professionals who give little support and who don't even understand their own programs. Professional apathy is what is killing scouting today, IMHO. We volunteers have to take it on ourselves to make sure we not only do our own jobs but the professional scouters job as well. Anyone else feel the same?(This message has been edited by BadenP)