Merlyn_LeRoy

No Gonzo, the BSA deliberately didn't tell public schools that they would have to violate the civil rights of atheist students by excluding them from public school chartered packs, because the BSA isn't honest.

Beavah, I'm also aware that there are people who ignore the BSA's membership requirements. This does not mean they don't exist, it means people are ignoring them. You can't point to murders and say that means murder is legal.

Bob White writes: So what exactly is secret about the Values of the Oath and Law Merlyn? It seems to be pretty secret when government entities sign chartering agreements. Public schools could not have been the largest chartering partner of cub scout packs in 1998 if the BSA's exclusion of atheists was obvious.

Gonzo1 writes: Can YOU even follow a conversation? Seriously, we have told you that atheists are not allowed in the BSA. The courts have upheld our position. We are a private organization and atheists are not allowed to join. Yes, I KNOW all this; I haven't said anything to contradict that. Bob White, however, said "Nowhere does the BSA say it will remove from membership a scout who says he does not believe in God. " which doesn't match up with what the BSA says.

Bob White writes: Here's a challenge for you. You and I you know places where the membership conditions are readily available for anyone to see. We do? You can't seem to find bsalegal.org that says someone who does not believe in god can't be a member. So tell us anyplace where the BSA tells ANYONE to keep that information a secret. I never claimed the BSA tells anyone to keep that information a secret. I'll wait here. Hurry back, but do not come empty handed this time. All I have is that straw man you constructed yourself.

Gonzo1, can you even follow a conversation? Your argument is with Bob White, who (for some bizarre reason) doesn't seem to know that the BSA says that belief in god is a requirement. But, by the way, I have every right to try and change the BSA's membership requirements. Freedom of speech and all that.

Bob White writes: I know the policies very well merlyn, better thab you no doubt. And I have discussed then with several national directors in the BSA over the years including just a few months ago with the director of the Division responsible for this area of concern. I sincerely doubt Merlyn that you can honestly make that same claim. I can tell you that the BSA has the authority and the right to remove the membership of anyone they choose. That does not mean they have to do it right away. They can excercise that right when they feel they must. There is nowhere that says they do it immediatley is there Merlyn? Bob, time was not a factor in your earlier remark. It's irrelevant for you to try and bring it up now. Here's your original statement: "Nowhere does the BSA say it will remove from membership a scout who says he does not believe in God. " Here's an official BSA website on belief in god and membership: Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member? A. No. That contradicts your original statement. Notice that: 1) the fact that the BSA can remove anyone's membership for arbitrary reasons is completely irrelevant 2) the fact that the BSA can take an arbitrary amount of time to remove someone's membership is completely irrelevant 3) the fact that the BSA can completely ignore their own requirements on a whim is also irrelevant The only relevant factors are what BSA officials have said regarding whether belief in god is a membership requirement. They have; it is.

Bob White writes: The BSA has never made of secret of what those values were. Sure they do, Bob. When Cambridge-Isanti High School had a Venture Crew and had all sorts of extracurricular activities conducted through that Crew, I asked the school principal (who was a longtime BSA member and had also been the chairman of the Three Rivers District) if atheists could join that Venture Crew, and he said yes. The Indianhead council that it was chartered to could never give me a straight answer when I asked them if atheists could join, and neither could the head of the Venturing program at the national BSA. I was finally connected to David Park at the national BSA's legal department, who said no, atheists couldn't join that Venture Crew. Doesn't sound like their policy of excluding atheists is exactly clear; you seem pretty fuzzy on that concept yourself.

Bob White writes: I will repeat what I said in case you misunderstood. Nowhere does the BSA say it will remove from membership a scout who says he does not believe in God. What's this then? Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member? A. No. So, is bsalegal.org not the BSA? Or do you say you know BSA policy better than BSA's official legal website, explicitly created to communicate the BSA's position to the public? I do not disagree that an athiest cannot join. Assuming you mean "atheist," now you're not even being consistent.

Wrong; on the official BSA legal website, it says: http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-195.asp Q. Can an individual who states that he does not believe in God be a volunteer Scout leader or member? A. No. The Scout Oath represents the basic values of Scouting, and it addresses the issue of duty to God before duty to country, others, and self. I have also talked with a number of BSA officials about specific programs (such as the Venture Crew that Cambridge-Isanti High School used to charter) and asked directly if atheists could join these programs, and have been told "no." Bob, have you ever asked a BSA official whether a non-LFL was open to atheists and gotten a "yes"? I never have.

You say this like it hasn't happened yet (well, not the fine/imprisonment stuff): HOW OLD IS THE GRAND CANYON? PARK SERVICE WONT SAY Orders to Cater to Creationists Makes National Park Agnostic on Geology http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=801

Keep in mind that what John-in-KC wrote about atheist youth members is against official BSA policy. The BSA doesn't allow atheist youth members either, though some people ignore that requirement (and some also ignore that requirement for adults too).

Well, I don't consider accredation to be telling schools what they can or can't teach. Like I said, you can still run a school that teaches complete nonsense. But I'd much prefer doctors who have been taught the germ theory of disease as opposed to believing diseases are caused by demonic possession.

Rooster7, are you against the government deciding which schools receive accredation? Schools that teach nonsense can still exist, but their diplomas won't help anyone get into college.

Here's the law itself: http://webapps.phila.gov/council/attachments/5141.pdf There doesn't seem to be any connection between passing the test vs. what the tour guide says on tours. That is, you could get certified by passing the test, but there's no requirement that, when giving tours, that you don't tell entertaining lies instead. I think this law would have a much better chance of surviving a challenge if it removed any penalties; just have a method to certify tour guides, but if a tour guide isn't certified, they just aren't certified.

I haven't directly seen, felt, or touched these things, all of which I believe exist: Albania Neptune (the planet, not the god) giant tube worms that live near volcanic ocean vents Ed Mori The number 43,173 The above is not an exhaustive list. Ed, who has been forgetting that the BSA discriminates legally?

An article by the plaintiff's attorney is here: http://www.ij.org/first_amendment/pa_tour_guides/7_2_08pr.html I don't know if this would fly as a straight first amendment argument; presumably, people paying tour guides to tell them information are expecting reasonably accurate information for their money, and not just entertaining lies.

Gonzo1 writes: Yes Merlyn, I understand the difference. Then why, when I've been talking all this time about who charters a unit, did you bring up the totally irrelevant suggestion that I ask if an atheist group can MEET in a school? The analogous situation would be to ask if a public school would be willing to own & operate an atheists-only group. And in that case, no, no public school CAN own and operate an "atheists only" private club. That's why you should recognize that your rights are NOT being violated. Sorry, your evaluation of what my rights are are about as good as your evaluation of bronze-age myths. BSA no longer charters BSA units [to public schools]. Yes, I know. I made sure of that. You seem to think it was legal. I don't see how public schools discriminate AGAINST atheists, public schools nowadays demand that God is to be removed There's still that pesky pledge of allegiance (and there should be another verdict coming up on that soon, by the way). that commencement ceremonies must not contain reference to God and so on. Yes, because public schools aren't for religious ceremonies. If you want a religious ceremony, feel free to go to one, or hold your own. You should be happy, BSA DOESN'T charter units anymore. Well sure. But the BSA had to be forced to do the right thing, they saw nothing wrong or hypocritical in having public schools own & operate their "private" clubs. The BSA is a fundamentally dishonest organization now.

Gonzo1 writes: I'm not gullible, my rights aren't affected, neither are yours. When public schools discriminate against atheists, my rights ARE affected. Go ahead, ask your local school if your fictional (or actual) atheist group can meet there. Uh, why? I haven't been arguing that scout groups can't meet in public schools. I've been talking about who charters a BSA unit. Do you understand the difference? God exists, period. Gods are myths, period.

Ed, there are all kinds of things that exist that I can't see, feel, or touch; however, all of these things have other evidence for their existence, and not just bronze-age myths. The ark was "amazing" in the same sense that Santa's sleigh, able to take him to every home in the world in one night, is "amazing." And no Ed, O'Hair isn't any kind of atheist "pope," I was an atheist long before I ever heard of her.

Gonzo1 writes: There exists proof today that the ark was actually found on Mt Ararat and other things. The ark fable is about as realistic as Santa visiting every house in the world in one night. Sorry, it's not a credible story in the least. Here are some of the problems: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html Who do you say found the ark? It is my understanding that there have been barnacle formations at the bottom of the Red Sea - in the form of chariots. Yes, because the only possible way for a chariot to be at the bottom of the Red Sea is by having the sea magically part, someone drive a chariot in, and have the sea magically close up again. No chariot being moved by barge or ship has ever sunk. True enough, not actual proof that God exists. It's about as good a proof that Tiamat, a god from a different religion that also has a flood myth, exists. It's kinda like this. I (we) believe in God, you don't. We have a club (BSA) with certain membership rules. Yes, yes, I know all that. You'll notice that I haven't stated anything different. ... To my knowledge, the BSA doesn't charter anymore scout units to government related entities. No comment on how the BSA never did the honest thing on its own initiative, and had to be threatened with lawsuits to do so? However, scout units can meet there. It seems the main difference is whose name is on the charter. Big Whoop! The "main difference" is whether a government entity is violating someone's civil rights or not. You don't seem to find other people's rights to be of much concern. You can't believe we believe That isn't what I said. I said "I find it hard to believe people believe in gods." I can't believe you don't. Well, that's your problem. I heard a rumor that your "leader" Madaline Murray O'Hare actually got religion in the end. You hear lots of weird things. But considering she was murdered some weeks after being kidnapped, very few people would likely know, except the person who murdered her. Why are you so gullible? I have to comment on your horrible tactic of dissecting someone's comment, that put's us on the defensive Why is that a "horrible tactic"? I quote something you write, and reply to it. What's wrong with that? It's a coherent way to argue specific points. You dislike precision in conversation? Regarding your last comment, if my son's teacher were leading a club and my son couldn't become a member because of my son's religious views, I could tell my son he doesn't qualify and why. I could also use your tactic, hire the ACLU and sue the breeches off the school, the teacher and the parent organization of the club. It would be eaiser to do the former, but I would probably get some joy that I could stick it the atheists via the ACLU like they stick it to us. So, would you allow your public school to violate your son's religious rights or not? Sounds like you might, but only for some childish revenge, not because it's the right thing to do, and that you would also be preventing that school from violating the rights of other people's children. I happen to fight for my rights and the rights of my family; you can be a doormat if you like, but doormats don't get any respect from me.

Gonzo1 writes: I'm not suggesting that you are a liar or would lie, but c'mon, you gotta believe in SOMETHING greater than ourselves. Some Power, Presence, Omnipotense, Light, God, Diety or even a Tree. Nope. I find it hard to believe people believe in gods. They're no different than fairies or ghosts. If atheists generally believe there was a "big bang", who created it? Why do you assume there IS a "who"? Could it be the Creator? You're still assuming your conclusion. What creator? Why don't animals appear out of thin air today? I don't really want to discuss theology or atheology, but you gotta admit it, something Greater than ourselves created all of us. No, I don't "gotta admit it." Real, actual atheists exist. You seem to be an aatheist (someone who doesn't believe atheists exist). If iI were at my son's school and a sign advertising an atheists meeting tonight, I would not be offended. How would you feel if your son's (public) school had his teacher running a school club that rejected your son for not having acceptable religious views?

Well, the constitution doesn't allow public schools to discriminate on the basis of religion, and it's a good thing too, since there are quite a lot of people who consider the rights of atheists to be infringed "for the public good," just like Jews or Catholics in earlier times. Gonzo1, I advocate for atheists' rights; your suggestion that I lie to join the BSA is fairly common, but some atheists are too honest to do that.

I can't count the number of times I've explained that CHARTERING a scout group is completely different from USING SCHOOL FACILITIES. If a public school allows outside groups to use their facilities, EVERYONE gets to use them. When a public school CHARTERS a BSA unit, it's unlawfully running a "no atheists allowed" private club.

Mind explaining how official religious discrimination against atheists by public schools for the benefit of a private religious club is preferable? Or do atheists have no rights in your ideal world?