Merlyn_LeRoy

Well Beavah, rewrite her screed changing atheists to Jews and see how it reads.

Skeptic, I'm an ex-scouter (not that I'd want to join the BSA as it is today), and I advocate for atheists' rights. Yes, people like yourself can try and rationalize your discrimination against atheists by trying to vilify them, just like antisemitic groups vilify Jews.

Charlotte Allen's bizarro rant is already the laughingstock of atheist blogs: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/05/charlotte_allen_really_is_angr.php http://richarddawkins.net/article,3856,n,n I like this response to the opening sentence of "I can't stand atheists -- but it's not because they don't believe in God. It's because they're crashing bores": "I cant stand theists--and it's not because they believe in god. It's because they're crashing planes. " What does this have to do with scouting, skeptic? If you belonged to a no-Jews private club, would you repost antisemitic rants to justify your continued membership?

Even if that were true, which it isn't, it has nuthin' to do with my statement. You've seen testimony from dozens of us Tamils, I mean scouters, as to how we really interpret da DRP in our interactions with youth (or how we coach other adult leaders to act). I've seen what you've advocated on how public schools should be able to treat atheist students. Like I said, prejudice. That's exactly what you exude. Yeh can repeat it ten more times and it still won't be true. You can deny it as much as you like, but advocating that public schools ought to be able to discriminate against atheist students is advocating that schools ought to be able to violate their civil rights. Or rather than everything bein' an issue of litigation over civil rights, are some things just questions of public policy? Not religious discrimination.

You've already heard from dozens of Tamils, I mean scouters, that nobody who understands da DRP or Scouting treats atheists as second-class citizens Beavah, you, Fred, Ed, and lots of others have repeatedly made statements where atheists should or ought to be discriminated against by their own government and be treated as second-class citizens. Your excuses don't wash. And of course it's only our adult application, not da youth application, that even mentions the DRP. But don't let da facts disturb your prejudice. Don't let "facts" disturb your prejudice either: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/28-406.pdf Boy Scouts of America Youth Application ... Information for Parents ... Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership. Your own attitude is similar, as you've often advocated that public schools ought to be able to violate the civil rights of atheist students. Liar, liar pants on fire! Makin' stuff up again, eh? Nope. You've advocated that public schools ought to be able to violate the civil rights of atheist students. All I've argued that public schools ought to be able to serve all of their students with programs dat meet each of their interests and needs. By permitting public schools to discriminate against atheists. Like I said, you've advocated that public schools ought to be able to violate the civil rights of atheist students.

Beavah, I've explained before how the DRP says only theist members can be the best kinds of citizens, so atheists must be second-class (or worse), and how it's not just adult leaders, but youth members who must subscribe to the DRP. Your own attitude is similar, as you've often advocated that public schools ought to be able to violate the civil rights of atheist students.

Fred, when you had a public school official sign your cub scout charter, did you make it clear that you would not admit atheists?

Why do you really care what the BSA thinks about you or other atheists? There are groups that feel their race/kind is superior to others. I don't believe them, and I pay them no mind. They can think what they want and it isn't going to bother me. Why does the beliefs of the BSA, a group you despise, bother you so much? Because they teach children that atheists are second-class citizens, and they dishonestly try to get the government to aid them in this. And plenty of BSA members seem to loath atheists and think they don't deserve equal rights.

Well Fred, I judge people based on individual merit, not by what group they fall into. You, for example, are unethical, because of your intention to exclude atheists from your cub scout pack when it was chartered by Blattman Elementary, a public school. Plus, of course, your continued efforts to paint atheists as second-class citizens. I guess you really take the DRP to heart. And that's no compliment.

Does this mean the Explorer program, the largest BSA program that includes gays and atheists, is the new rightwing standard-bearer for conservative BSA supporters? Just trying to keep current...

BadenP, note that this is an Explorer Post, so technically it is *not* passing itself off as Scouting.

Beavah writes: Honesty demands that we admit that such a case has not been tried by a precedent-setting court. Because, for some odd reason, no public school ever wants to lose tons of money defending obviously unlawful religious discrimination.

Ed, how could a public school "accidentally" charter a BSA unit?

Not legally, Beavah. I can hit someone with my car, but that wouldn't make it legal, either.

I'm sorry but the school would only be discriminatory if they refused to also charter competing groups or if they contributed material funds. The ACLU and even the BSA's own lawyers don't agree; the BSA agreed to stop chartering discriminatory BSA units to public schools and other government entities back in 2005. As I said, your logic would have forced our Wargaming Club to admit and service bridge and badminton players and who knows what else. You don't appear to know the difference between a BSA unit chartered by a public school vs. a BSA unit chartered by some other organization but which meets in a school. As for your distaste for "an eye for an eye" justice, you have something against biblical morality?

HICO_Eagle, I'm referring to a public school being the chartering organization; I've stated many times that BSA units have the same right to use school facilities as any other outside organization. But a public school can't charter a BSA unit, because the school would have to practice religious discrimination to do so.

Beavah writes: of course I have never said that public schools "ought to be able to discriminate against atheists." Yes, you have. You repeated it just now, too: Public schools should sponsor any co-curricular program that helps achieve their secular purpose for a segment of their students. And to sponsor a BSA unit, as you have previously advocated, would require that public schools discriminate against atheists. They should welcome the B'nai B'rith Youth Organization if it helps their Jewish students establish a community and feel welcome and succeed at school, they should sponsor the Young Atheists if the organization helps in their mission of encouraging critical thinking skills, and they should sponsor the Boy Scouts if having a troop helps teach some of their students about citizenship, service, and character. Public schools can't practice religious discrimination, and they can't teach that belief in god is an aspect of good citizenship or character.

BadenP, the DRP says that, in order to be the best kinds of citizens, you have to believe in a god, so atheists can't be the best kinds of citizens. Beavah, I consider you yourself to be bigoted because you continue to say that public schools ought to be able to discriminate against atheists by chartering BSA units that exclude atheists. Chug, I certainly can't change my beliefs by force of will, and I don't think you can, either. If you disagree, try to be an atheist for a week (note that merely saying your an atheist isn't sufficient; you actually have to not believe any gods exist for a week). But in any case, you seem to think that discriminating against changable characteristics shouldn't be considered bigotry; I disagree. If a club excluded mixed-race couples, I would call that bigoted also, even though dating and marriage is an individual choice.

Every organization that excluded Jews (and only Jews) or non-whites felt it was justified and pertinent, Beavah. That doesn't prevent them from being labeled as bigoted organizations.

Beavah writes: There are clearly fundamentalist Christians who want to join LGBT support organizations and atheist groups in order to evangelize them. There are? I haven't heard of any. Are you just making up crap? Da proper answer to all of 'em is "no." Just like the proper answer to Jews who wanted to join a club that was Restricted, or blacks who wanted to join all-white country clubs.

Beavah writes: Merlyn, once yeh get over your sophomoric rant, Pointing out that you're lying isn't a "sophomoric rant." you'll recognize da quote as a rhetorical device, and the claim made bein' exactly the same as the one I just posted which you do not deny. And which I don't affirm, either. But that doesn't stop you from just making up crap. I'm goin' back to talkin' with packsaddle now, because you aren't worth the powder. Tired of trying (and failing) to justify your pathetic lying? I'm not surprised.

Beavah writes, quoting Ed at first: Actually, Merlyn, what was posted was based on your past behavior and accurate. But we can give yeh da chance to clarify. Beavah, "clarify" means explaining a statement *I HAVE MADE* You do NOT get to make up crap, claim it's something I *WOULD* say, and then ASK ME TO CLARIFY SOMETHING I HAVE NOT SAID. Are you really sayin' that your position is not da same as DanKroh's? No, you idiot. I haven't SAID what my position is. But this does not prevent you from making up crap about me and what I "would" say. You wouldn't in fact say that if a physician or hospital accepts government money, they have to provide all authorized services to everyone? And that if they're a Christian and don't believe in providin' a particular service that they either have to give up their belief (aka "convert") or give up that career (since in many areas of medicine, private practice is unable to compete with da government)? In other words, you'd finance da opposition to the ACLU's suit in this matter? I can provide an address for organizations litigatin' the opposite side for yeh. Or was I actually right about your position, and not lyin' at all? Beavah, YOU WERE LYING. YOU MADE UP SOMETHING AND CLAIMED IT WAS SOMETHING I "WOULD" SAY. But you don't appear to understand this. You don't discuss issues honestly. It's pointless to try if you are going to continue to be dishonest and "give me a chance" to clarify STATEMENTS I NEVER MADE.

Ed writes: Actually, Merlyn, what was posted was based on your past behavior and accurate. No it wasn't Ed, Beavah made up something and claimed it's what I would say.

Hey Beavah, remember when you wrote this: Public schools discriminate all da time. They discriminate on ability. They discriminate by handicap and race, providin' lots more resources to some than others. They discriminate in a "separate but equal" way by gender when it comes to sports. A public body like a school board has discretion, eh? It is free to do what it feels best for its kids and program, includin' chartering a BSA unit. So it must be OK with you if the government discriminates against Christians and Muslims and Sikhs, etc, if they feel that's "what's best," right? You wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now, would you?

I do take issue with the idea that there are gays and atheists that truely want to JOIN scouting. If they did, why wouldn't they just keep their beliefs to themselves, join and abide by the policies set by the organization? What makes you think there aren't a lot doing that now? But why is that acceptable? If you belonged to a club that allowed everyone except Jews to join, the fact that some Jews can join by not mentioning that they're Jews doesn't change the fundamental bigotry of such a rule in the first place.