Merlyn_LeRoy

BadenP, 1) any theology is as authoritative as any other, since it's just different groups of humans claiming to know what god(s) want, so any description of someone else's theology as "faulty" is, necessarily, completely relative and a matter of opinion. 2) religious freedom includes the freedom to tell other people what or how to believe.

Sure, I can understand that, Ed.

What are you talking about?

Sherminator, you've made statements about atheists that are wrong. I don't know what you're on about now, I only commented on your statements about what atheists "have to" believe by pointing out that atheists do NOT "have to" believe what you've said they "have to" believe. If you'd like to offer some evidence of why atheists "have to" believe the things you've claimed, feel free to offer something. I've said atheists don't "have to" believe anything on your laundry list because, to be an atheist, the only requirement is to not believe in gods. None of your "have to" believe statements are intrinsic to atheism. But lately you've only been babbling about MY beliefs, which isn't even relevant.

All kinds of things, Ed. I believe the earth is spherical, I believe Buster Keaton, the Firesign Theatre, the Marx Brothers, and Monty Python are funny, I believe that you have a very difficult time understanding simple, straightforward statements, I believe cocktail shrimp taste good with cocktail sauce but not with chocolate cake, I believe O.J. Simpson is a murderer, I believe e^(i*pi) = -1 even though I can't follow all the math, I believe it will snow soon in Minnesota, and I could go on for quite a long way like this, but what's the point? Can't any of you understand the extremely simple concept that I don't believe gods exist? Why is that so difficult for some people to comprehend? Do you have equal difficulty understanding, say, the fact that I don't believe leprechauns exist?

I believe lots of things. Gods aren't among them.

Your list is weird merely because it's just your own made-up list of what atheists "have to" believe. It's nonsense, atheists don't "have to" believe anything on your list. The only requirement to be an atheist is to not hold a belief in god(s). (fixed typo)(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

No Ed, I'm applying your reasoning. If not believing in your god is a "belief system," not believing in someone else's god is also a "belief system." So not believing in Zeus is a belief system.

I never brought up Zeus or bowling. That was you, Merlyn. I know Ed, but if not believing in your god is a belief system, then not believing in Zeus is a belief system, too. Maybe atheism is a disbelief system! Why do you keep adding "system"? If you said "atheism is a disbelief," that would be fine. Where does the system come in? skeptic, what are you babbling about? If I scare you with children's stories of Niflhel, will you embrace Odin? See how ridiculously silly other people's gods are? Yours looks the same to me.

You're the one attempting to speak for all atheists, because you've stated things that all atheists "have" to believe. I don't claim to speak for all atheists, but I do know what the word "atheist" means.

No, that's not what I mean. What I mean is "atheists don't have to believe them" which is why I wrote "atheists don't have to believe them." Tricky, eh?

You did express a certain disdain for the term. Yes. So what? But then, I'm guessing you will come up with some argument denying that, too. No, I've been denying things people have been making up about atheism. Like your weird laundry list of things that atheists "have to believe," even though atheists don't have to believe them.

Sherminator, I've stated that atheism is not a belief system. I haven't said anything on whether I have a belief system or not.

Well Ed, if you want to think that atheism, disbelief in Zeus, and bowling are belief systems, go ahead. I think that makes "belief system" a rather useless term (not that it's terribly useful anyway).

Ed, you have utterly failed to point out what other beliefs follow from atheism; if atheism is a "belief system," it appears to consist of the one trivially true statement that the "belief system" of atheism contains atheism. Which means bowling is the "belief system" that contains bowling.

Well Ed, it doesn't surprise me that you offer no support for your assertions, but then why do you even bother typing?

My point is that "atheist" only indicates someone who does not believe gods exist. That's what the word means.

Ed, in case you forgot, you've offered no evidence or explanation why you say atheism is a belief system. For some odd reason you tried to fob it off on me, as if I'm supposed to make your arguments for you, but when that didn't work, you continue to make random statements, like the obvious observation that my opinion is my opinion.

I always have an answer too. I have a Magic 8-Ball.

You're the one making the claim that atheism is a belief system, Ed. I've always said it isn't a belief system, it only consists of the absence of belief in gods.

So is disbelief in Zeus another belief system, Ed? Is disbelief in the Loch Ness monster a belief system? Does every opinion spawn an entire belief system? If atheism is a belief system Ed, what does it consist of, besides the non-belief in gods?

They CAN, sure; why wouldn't they be able to? I doubt most of them do this, but there's nothing that requires theism in that. Atheists can also build 1/4 size replicas of the Brooklyn Bridge out of popsicle sticks, but that's probably not common, either.

Atheism is not a belief system, just as not believing in leprechauns is not a belief system. Atheists don't believe gods exist. That's all it means. Notice this is not a belief system, it's simply a statement that the person does not believe in gods. They can believe in ghosts, reincarnation, magic, past lives, fate, kismet, lucky numbers, and Republicans, and that still doesn't make them "not atheists." Nor does it establish a "belief system." I'll assume you don't believe Zeus exists as an actual god. My absence of belief that your god exists is probably similar to your own belief that Zeus does not exist. Not believing in Zeus is not a belief system, and not believing in your god (or any other) is not a belief system, either. If I'm wrong about Zeus, feel free to substitute another god you don't believe in, like the Invisible Pink Unicorn or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If you are some sort of pantheist that believes all gods exist, then it will be a bit harder to form an analogy using your own beliefs.

Ed, Wikipedia isn't perfect, but they give references you can check about these atheist theologians, and you can even write to two of them. Sherminator, you don't even know what an atheist is. An atheist is someone who is not a theist. To be an atheiest, you have to believe that every little thing that happens, merely happens. Wrong. There is nothing in atheism qua atheism that requires that, since gods are not the exclusive source of meaning. You might think that, but that's an assumption on your part, and atheists have no reason to follow your personal assumptions. All of your other observations are similarly wrong. Nothing that you've asserted is required to follow by the absence of gods. Maybe you should be a theologian. They're good at starting from an assumption and building elaborate, complex systems of thought around it.

In Theology there are a few more of these "experts" perhaps, but that is likely because the entire study is so much more ephemeral and requires intellectual ideas some just cannot fathom. I'd say it's because it's all made up. The Lord of the Rings has a complex theology, too. So does World of Warcraft. Since they both contain Orcs, does this establish Orcs as actually existing? The one thing that all the Theologians of any stature likely agree on is that there is "something greater than ourselves". I wouldn't even agree with that, but even if I granted that, it's an incredibly vague "fact." And that is where all the permutations of study jump off. I would describe it as "that's where people start making up stuff." In the end, most of the far flung examiners of the "spiritual" within us and the world will also admit that at some point we will finally "see". Wake me when that happens. Future predictions based on zero knowledge are pretty useless in my book.