Merlyn_LeRoy

There are a few Scientology chartered units in Florida and California.

Your summary of my position is correct, OGE.

Ed, you asked me for the same information you had read just two days earlier, and I pointed that out, and my usual observation that you can't learn things, because you do this sort of thing all the time. I don't consider pointing out the obvious to be "bullying." If you can't stand the heat, etc. etc.

There you go, can't think of any real argument, so you make vague accusations that I'm somehow not being accurate, while never getting around to quoting something I wrote and saying why it's inaccurate. Just the vague accusations. I use terms accurately; "religious discrimination" is clearly required when you have a private club that says belief in a god is a condition of membership. If you don't like having the term "religious discrimination" applied to your favorite group, that's your problem. "Lying" and "dishonest" describe the BSA by their actions. They promised back in 2005 to stop issuing charters to government entities, yet their own figures show "law enforcement agencies" and "correctional institutions" as chartering units. If you don't want "lying" and "dishonest" to apply to your favorite group, too bad, that's precisely what the BSA is today. "Fraud" I used as an example of a crime that can be committed only using speech, to show that the first amendment does not mean every single type of utterance is at all times legal. I haven't used the term "fraud" against the BSA in this thread, but that doesn't matter, it's just one more vague accusation you can tack on instead of presenting a real argument. "Illegal" may be up for grabs, but I would welcome a test case. Your ridiculous rationalizations on how religious discrimination is somehow magically legal if it helps the "right kinds of kids" (i.e. no filthy Jews or blacks -- no wait, no filthy gays and atheists) is an emotional argument, not a reasonable or legal argument. And you're really protesting way too much on how I'M the one supposedly "shouting," when you offer no reasons, only emotional arguments.

If the BSA offers a charter to a police department, that is also the BSA's problem. They can be sued right along with the PD. And you don't seem to have gotten the memo about Explorer Posts -- they haven't excluded gays and atheists since 1998.

Your "strategic case management decision" rationalization is laughable. You just can't accept the fact that public schools can't practice religious discrimination, and chartering a Pack requires religious discrimination. It's dead simple. "Undeserved" is interestin', given the BSA's service record to communities. Oh, I see; perform services for "free" as long as you get some kind of payment in return. Sorry, that's still undeserved. The BSA can stop performing public services if they want (after all, they're a private organization and can decide to do that); performing public services does not obligate the public to anything. And generally speakin', government agencies especially in urban areas give grants to everybody from Catholic charity hospitals to private and parochial schools to YMCAs and Boys' and Girls' clubs No matter how many times you bring out this dead horse and beat it, it still doesn't mean that the government can practice religious discrimination and charter BSA units. You should start your own whining channel on youtube, you've got plenty of material.

Government entities don't have "rights" Beavah, they have powers that they exercise. But there I go, explaining how the law actually works. Go ahead and try to find a government entity of some kind willing to do what you insist is legal. I won't hold my breath.

Beavah, if BSA charters to government entities are legal, why did the BSA fold up and agree to stop issue them? And no, stopping illegal government discrimination is not "taking liberties away from" poor, defenseless people like yourself. You just want a private organization that's supported by the government. You're calling undeserved entitlement "liberty" and whining when it's taken away. (fixed typo)(This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

Responsible for stopping BSA charters to public schools, BDPT00. Ed, I listed some of the groups I considered illegal on page 2 of the "LDS membership declines" thread. And since you quoted and responded what I wrote, you obviously read it, and you obviously still can't learn things, or you'd already know some groups I consider to be illegally chartering units, because you read, quoted, and responded to that only two days ago. And, even if a government charter partner doesn't "give a hoot" if they are breaking the law, other people do, and can force government entities to follow the law.

Of course I noticed Ed, I'm one of the people responsible. Did you notice that the BSA is also backsliding a bit, with 1 unit chartered to "Army (Bases, Reserves)" and 1 to "Public Schools"? Even though they promised not to ever do that any more?

Beavah, go ahead and try to convince any government agency to defend religious discrimination as legal. I'm sure they're all eager to burn up public money defending an obviously illegal practice. And NO, offering illegal contracts isn't protected by the first amendment. Fraud, conspiracy, and many other crimes can be conducted entirely through speech and are not protected. If you had the slightest bit of knowledge about US law you'd know that.

From what I've seen of VFDs, I'd say that any VFD that gets any funding from the government or via taxes would not legally be able to practice religious discrimination. Members of that VFD would have to form a "friends of xxx VFD" to charter a unit, because governments have to avoid even giving the mistaken appearance of religious discrimination.

No, Ed. You haven't shown that any of the law enforcement agencies that have a charter knowingly agreed to an illegal contract; the BSA, however, having been threatened with a lawsuit, has no such excuse.

Wrong, Beavah. Knowingly offering an illegal contract is illegal. Keep trying to apply that whitewash if you like, but it doesn't change the BSA's dishonest conduct.

I think a valid test would be: Could your VFD legally create a youth baseball team that said Jewish kids could not play on the team? If they could legally do that, they can charter a BSA unit. If not, they can't.

Ed, your pathetic fingerpointing does nothing to change the BSA's dishonesty. They said five years ago they would stop chartering units to government entities, yet they have hundreds chartered to law enforcement agencies, correctional institutions, and so on. The BSA is dishonest. If you don't like that, tell the BSA to stop being dishonest, don't whine to me.

No Ed, when one party in a contract is being deliberately dishonest, you can't assume both sides are equally culpable. Besides, because other people may or may not be dishonest does not excuse the BSA's continued, deliberate, illegal dishonesty.

Complain to the BSA, Ed. This is part of the BSA's end-of-year summary, which usually hits about May, so 2008 is the very latest. 2009's report will probably be out around May. I have a copy up at http://www.westley.org/bsa2008.pdf

Lisabob, LFL units are not in the list. They are listed as "NATIONAL CHARTERED ORGANIZATIONS USING THE TRADITIONAL SCOUTING PROGRAM" OGE writes: the governmental entity is also being dishonest for chartering an organization that is inherently discriminatory (not that there is anything wrong with that, in fact the Supreme Court that it was fine) Absolutely not, OGE. The supreme court has said nothing of the kind, and all court rulings I've seen have said the exact opposite.

It's the BSA's category, not mine. What I mostly see are entries like "xxx park & recreation dept" The 2008 figures have 1,386 units listed under "Fire Departments"

Ed writes: But that doesn't matter does it, Merlyn No it doesn't, Ed. Why would it?

WAKWIB writes: Lisabob, I think Merlyn is referring to use, not charter, in regards to the playground. If the city owns the playground, no Scouts allowed. Nope: I'm quoting directly from the BSA's "NATIONAL CHARTERED ORGANIZATIONS USING THE TRADITIONAL SCOUTING PROGRAM" list as of Dec 2008, under their own category of "Playgrounds, Recreation Centers", which has 584 units. Ed, the BSA dishonestly said they would stop chartering units to government entities. Why do they still have 85 units chartered to "Law Enforcement Agencies"? Answer: because the BSA is dishonest.

http://www.ourlivesmadison.com/forum/2010/02/01/members-of-congress-call-on-boy-scouts-of-america-to-end-its-discrimination-against-gays-and-lesbian

Just haven't looked in scouter.com for a while, NJ, for a while there it was all non-scout issues here. The BSA still isn't honest, it has a few hundred "traditional" charters with law enforcement agencies and correctional institutions, plus I'm sure a lot of the playgrounds & recreation centers in their list are unlawful, too. I wrote to Adam Schwartz of the Illinois ACLU about these units a while back, but I haven't heard anything yet.

Technically acco40, barring ties, only one person can be athiest; others may be athier than you but still less athy than the athiest.